Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Wasn’t that the same thing with Big Ben?No,but he would be getting suspended for things people said he did with no actual proof he did them.
Personally, I think he did most if not all of it. But........
Wasn’t that the same thing with Big Ben?No,but he would be getting suspended for things people said he did with no actual proof he did them.
Personally, I think he did most if not all of it. But........
The "fact" that nothing happened? How do you prove a negative? That said, wouldn't the "preponderance of the evidence" always fall on the side of the plaintiff? After all, that person will have a testimony, whereas the defendant will only have a denial. Just wondering how the lawyers here see it.The Browns quarterback met with the media this week for the first time since March, and in that interview, he continued to insist that he did nothing wrong.
"I've been honest and I've been truthful," Watson said. "I never forced anyone, I never assaulted anyone. I've been saying it from the beginning, and I'm gonna continue to do that until all the facts come out."
First off, no. Testimony of both the plaintiffs and the defendants should start off on equal footing and then it comes down to credibility to push it to one side or the other.The "fact" that nothing happened? How do you prove a negative? That said, wouldn't the "preponderance of the evidence" always fall on the side of the plaintiff? After all, that person will have a testimony, whereas the defendant will only have a denial. Just wondering how the lawyers here see it.
Is he saying he will maintain his innocence until all the facts come out?"I've been honest and I've been truthful," Watson said. "I never forced anyone, I never assaulted anyone. I've been saying it from the beginning, and I'm gonna continue to do that until all the facts come out."
MarkMaske@MarkMaskeif I was getting odds, I would say a year.
I'll admit that this is some conjecture here but... Watson is a young man who, as an elite athlete, has probably been coddled his whole life and this could lead to a sense of entitlement. He may truly believe there was nothing wrong with his advances (etc.). I recall the survivor contestant, Dan, who was ejected for inappropriate touching. It was amazing how he, when confronted with the accusation, seemed oblivious to his own actions.The "fact" that nothing happened? How do you prove a negative? That said, wouldn't the "preponderance of the evidence" always fall on the side of the plaintiff? After all, that person will have a testimony, whereas the defendant will only have a denial. Just wondering how the lawyers here see it.
I think I said 6-8 from the beginning and while more has come to light since, it still sounds right to me.Pete Smith seems to get it. There has to be a compromise on both sides.
Imagine this is appealed and lawyers dig back the Kraft stuff (and you know they'll use it, and so does the league)... They'll bring it all back up to the surface, and the MANY folks who maybe were too young or the outrage then wasn't as grand, will take note and say "waaaaait a minute"....
The punishment will serve both sides, it's logical. And I think Gruden's case may also play into this as well... the league losing that appeal means a LOT of unsavory info about the league will come out once again. Do they want to be double fisted? Probably not.
6-8 seems right.
The threat that the NFLPA made to bring up past indiscretions of the NFL is a primary concern of the league.the league losing that appeal means a LOT of unsavory info about the league will come out
That's about where I am/was too.I’ve been on the “8 reduced to 6” train from the jump, but at this point, with additional cases coming out, a year seems plausible. We’ll see what happens.
I read this in the Danny Snyder thread, like he was going to air a bunch of dirt if he wasn't happy.The threat that the NFLPA made to bring up past indiscretions of the NFL is a primary concern of the league.
How many people do you know that have logged 66 massages inside of 17 months? Even Robert Kraft has to stand back in awe of that.Bolded, no less...
If I was an athlete of his caliber and similar financial resources, I would probably get as many massages in this time frame and, likely with as many women, "just because" I can and I enjoy it. And, yes, I prefer a female masseuse to a male one although I've gotten massages from very proficient men, My last massage was last Saturday. And, no, I've never questioned or cared about their credentials as I've got massages I didn't like (too soft) from pros and great massages from students.
I'm not saying that Watson isn't a perv but the fact that he got this many massages, in and of itself, really isn't a big deal.
Isn’t that one a week average or just about? A lot for normal people but I don’t know if that is a lot for a professional athlete?How many people do you know that have logged 66 massages inside of 17 months? Even Robert Kraft has to stand back in awe of that.
I think the variance is in play here, most would settle on the one or two that are doing the best sports massage.I have multiple people I know that get a massage once a week. 66 in a year and a half is completely reasonable
Copy that.I think the variance is in play here, most would settle on the one or two that are doing the best sports massage.
I believe this is the case. It’s massages from at least 66 massage therapists on 17 months. I am sure some of them were utilized more than once. I do not recall seeing the total number of massages he received being reported.I thought it was 66 massage therapists, not 66 massages.
This has been brought up multiple times. It is a very common practice by every team in the league to structure players contracts in this fashion. Most likely has nothing to do with his guilt or innocence.The fact he changed his contract to earn less and minimise his financial hit indicates he was fully expecting a long suspension. That is not the actions of an innocent man.
No way, seriously? 66 different women, for sure i thought some of these women saw him more than once, I must be so naive.I thought it was 66 massage therapists, not 66 massages.
How many are due $230M guaranteed?This has been brought up multiple times. It is a very common practice by every team in the league to structure players contracts in this fashion. Most likely has nothing to do with his guilt or innocence.
Greetings old friend, thanks for the post.The "fact" that nothing happened? How do you prove a negative? That said, wouldn't the "preponderance of the evidence" always fall on the side of the plaintiff? After all, that person will have a testimony, whereas the defendant will only have a denial. Just wondering how the lawyers here see it.
I wasn’t defending him.How many are due $230M guaranteed?
He's in complete rare air and I'm not going to take any offense to those that want to try and defend him but the evidence is overwhelming and a lot of folks that get paid big money to report on these things seem to feel Watson is deserving of a lengthy punishment.
Are you saying there were 66 massages in question of inappropriate conduct or 66 massages in 17 months?Would Robert Kraft still be the owner of the Patriots if he had been linked to 66 pleasant afternoons over 17 months?
Since you posted this, i feel comfortable in posting or paraphrasing Rich Eisen again, this week he mentioned on his show that 18 of these 22 going back to Oct last year when Miami wanted him, 18 were willing to settle for 100K but Watson wanted all or nothing."More than once" discussion could be what Deshaun's attorney wants to be brought up.
If the massage was such a traumatic horrible incident, why did you take him as a client again? OR of course it could be a few massages made him feel comfortable and brought the creep out in him.
Really an interesting twist
Some did. Per NYT: 66 different women. So there were more than 66 massages.No way, seriously? 66 different women, for sure i thought some of these women saw him more than once, I must be so naive.
"Are you saying"...honestly are you kidding me? I don't make this stuff up, it came out this week he has been linked to 66 where he was telling them it was 40 or whatever absurd number.Are you saying there were 66 massages in question of inappropriate conduct or 66 massages in 17 months?
First of all, relax! I’m not trying to argue with you! Most of what I know about this case, I get from this site, this thread. I honestly have not read any articles on this matter in about a month. I was only asking a legitimate question about something you posted. Trust me, I’m not looking to be your disciple or anyone else’s."Are you saying"...honestly are you kidding me? I don't make this stuff up, it came out this week he has been linked to 66 where he was telling them it was 40 or whatever absurd number.
I'm not looking for disciples. If some of you feel Watson did nothing wrong, you're opinion and we really should leave it at that since I am not trying to bite down or shut down anyone wanting to post things they feel are important. That's mostly what we have here in recent days/weeks...this is a tough topic we're forced into, just being blunt. And I don't want to pour gasoline on it, it's not fair to the Browns fans here.
But here is what is posted in the The Atlantic
Content warning: This story contains details about alleged sexual abuse. The content may be difficult to read and emotionally upsetting.
Despite publicly saying he worked with about 40 massage therapists, Cleveland Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson booked massage appointments with 66 women from 2019 through 2021, according to a report from the New York Times.
The report contains accounts from some of those therapists that suggest the quarterback, who's currently facing 24 active civil lawsuits accusing him of sexual assault and sexual misconduct, engaged in questionable behavior when seeking massages.
The 24 plaintiffs' attorney Tony Buzbee said, in a statement released Wednesday, that the Houston Texans were being added to the suits.
"Based on what we have learned from the Houston Police Department, we will soon be joining the Houston Texans organization and others as defendants in the ongoing lawsuits against Deshaun Watson," the statement reads.
According to the New York Times, Watson asked several of the therapists to sign an N.D.A. he received from a Houston Texans staff member, and in his deposition he said the team arranged for some of the massages to happen at "a place" at The Houstonian. Per the Times, "he used the fitness club, dined there and also set up massages in hotel rooms."
Buzbee cited those details and said the team "facilitated Deshaun Watson's conduct."
"In many cases the Texans provided an opportunity for this conduct to occur," the statement reads. "We believe the Texans organization was well aware of Watson's issues, but failed to act. They knew or certainly should've known."
The Texans told the NYT via a statement that they first learned of the allegations against Watson in March 2021, have cooperated with investigators and "will continue to do so."
Tuesday's report also contained the account of one woman who said Watson purchased 30 bottles of her $40 skin cleanser, and had a few appointments with the quarterback during the summer of 2020. She told the Times that when Watson booked an appointment she told him she was licensed only to give him a back facial.
However, during the sessions, Watson got fully undressed and directed her toward his groin. She told the Times there was no sexual contact, but she believed that he was seeking more than a professional massage.
Watson, who sat out last season while on the Texans' roster, has denied any wrongdoing and said any sexual encounters with the women suing him were consensual. Grand juries in Harris County and Brazoria County declined to indict Watson.
Watson signed a fully guaranteed five-year, $230 million contract with the Browns as part of his trade to Cleveland. One of Watson's accusers, Ashley Solis, said in a recent segment on HBO's "Real Sports" that the contract is "like a big screw you."
Watson met with NFL officials earlier this month. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell said last week the league is nearing the end of its investigation into Watson, though he did not offer a timeline on when to expect a disciplinary ruling.
-Just posting what has already been written. You can judge for yourself.
My bad, I understand what your saying, that's why I posted the Atlantic article in my last post.First of all, relax! I’m not trying to argue with you! Most of what I know about this case, I get from this site, this thread. I honestly have not read any articles on this matter in about a month. I was only asking a legitimate question about something you posted. Trust me, I’m not looking to be your disciple or anyone else’s.
The latest I had heard is there are 24 complaints against him. I was asking you if there really were “66 massages”, “66 masseuses” or “66 complaints” over a 17 month period of time.
If it 66 massages over 17 months, I really don’t think that is a crazy number for a professional athlete. If it was 66 masseuses, that’s definitely extreme. Etc.
Carry on sir! I’ll leave you be.
This is pretty depressing.Watson literally got a RAISE by sitting out last year AND being accused of sexual assault/misconduct, it's embarrassing or should be for most NFL fans.
I don't see anyone defending his actions. Most are speculating about how this might play out.I'm not looking for disciples. If some of you feel Watson did nothing wrong or want to defend him, be my guest. I am not trying to shut down anyone wanting to post things they feel are important. That's mostly what we have here in recent days/weeks...this is a tough topic we're forced into, just being blunt. And I don't want to pour gasoline on it, it's not fair to the Browns fans here.
A what?she told him she was licensed only to give him a back facial.
Really? Do you know the Robert Kraft story?How many people do you know that have logged 66 massages inside of 17 months? Even Robert Kraft has to stand back in awe of that.
Did Kraft himself get 11 "massages" in one day, and over 4K in a year? You sure are making it sound like that for dramatic effect. Also, I am not familiar with the case, but did any of Kraft's victims say he did anything they disapproved of?11 booked massages in less than 24 hours the rub and tug queen that is who he is.
Yep, yer right. Watson has nothing on Robert Kraft.
11 massages booked in less than 24 hours that is a clip of over 4,000 massages per year. No criminal charges, no trials, no time served, no punishment from the league, no public outcry.
Oh my gosh. You are absolutely correct. You are soo right to be furious at that mistake.Did Kraft himself get 11 "massages" in one day, and over 4K in a year? You sure are making it sound like that for dramatic effect. Also, I am not familiar with the case, but did any of Kraft's victims say he did anything they disapproved of?
By the way, I am a Patriots hater and would love to see Kraft jailed, but it sounds like Kraft went to hookers and Watson went to "not" hookers. Big difference.
I am not furious at your "mistake". I was just pointing out that you were trying to make it sound like he booked 4K massages for himself in a year. Another thing you did was extrapolate for no reason. If I eat a cheeseburger in 5 minutes, would you say I ate 1 cheeseburger in 5 minutes, or would you say I eat cheeseburgers at a clip of 105,120 per year?Oh my gosh. You are absolutely correct. You are soo right to be furious at that mistake.
Robert Kraft only booked 3 massages for himself in less than 24 hours for a clip of over 1,000 'massages' personal 'massages' per year.
We can only go on the actual number of 'massages' that we know of that he personally booked so you are right.
He may have booked MORE personal 'massages'.
Glad you pointed out 'THE RUB AND TUG QUEEN' 'could' have booked much more. You are so right to be furious about that, lol. ROBERT KRAFT as an example of Internet outrage is classic.
Yes Kraft went to a message parlor where that “extra” was the norm.I am not furious at your "mistake". I was just pointing out that you were trying to make it sound like he booked 4K massages for himself in a year. Another thing you did was extrapolate for no reason. If I eat a cheeseburger in 5 minutes, would you say I ate 1 cheeseburger in 5 minutes, or would you say I eat cheeseburgers at a clip of 105,120 per year?
Also, you never answered whether or not Kraft's victims were willing participants. As I said, I truly don't know, and was really asking if you knew.
Except that he's not making the rulings anymore. So, instead of the old ways of the commish being both the owners' rep AND king of discipline, he must adhere (mostly) to the independent judge's ruling. If I understand, it'll look a lot like a court case where the league will present things and ask for a "sentence", while Watson's legal team will present counter arguments. IMO, this is a precedent setting case for a new system. It remains to be seen how hard everyone wants to pursue it, but certainly asking for year-long (or, even permanent) suspension makes sense from the standpoint of those presenting the case. Shoot for the stars & settle for the moon.Goodell is going to drop his gavel and just like in moments past we're not going to like it, most of us.
-He suspended Brady for 4 games, a full 1/4 of the season over some air in the football...hard to imagine Watson getting a light suspension.
Agreed. There are 2 different occupations here - massage therapist and hooker. A massage therapist who provides the "extra" service is a hooker; not a massage therapist. Kraft visited hookers. Watson visited massage therapists (but some of them may have been hookers, for all I know).ETA: what some in here keep failing to acknowledge for whatever reason is that many of Watsons accusers claim that they were legit message therapists that he “forced” himself on.
You are forgetting about the whole "consent" part.Oh my gosh. You are absolutely correct. You are soo right to be furious at that mistake.
Robert Kraft only booked 3 massages for himself in less than 24 hours for a clip of over 1,000 'massages' personal 'massages' per year.
We can only go on the actual number of 'massages' that we know of that he personally booked so you are right.
He may have booked MORE personal 'massages'.
Glad you pointed out 'THE RUB AND TUG QUEEN' 'could' have booked much more. You are so right to be furious about that, lol. ROBERT KRAFT as an example of Internet outrage is classic.
And that, is the entire difference. Although had Kraft been a player he most likely would have been suspended for a while.Yes Kraft went to a message parlor where that “extra” was the norm.
What he did was Illegal but there weren’t any “victims” unless you want to extrapolate into him being part of the sex worker trade by participating and supporting it.
ETA: what some in here keep failing to acknowledge for whatever reason is that many of Watsons accusers claim that they were legit message therapists that he “forced” himself on.
You are right. I am not convinced that there was force involved. In fact, I don't remember that being an accusation even. This is the point on which things turn and I (we) will never know the truth. We can speculate and try to reconstruct the scene, but there will always be questions unless both sides publicly agree. Personally, I can't construct the scene wherein the therapist is completely naïve, unaware, devoted to her craft to such an extent that she can do it without arousal, yet helpless to decline his suggestions. It seems to me that such a person is strong and weak, aware and naïve, willing and unwilling, etc. That is, the person described would be four people. Again, I want to be clear that this is my personal assessment and (as ever) I could be completely out in left field.Yes Kraft went to a message parlor where that “extra” was the norm.
What he did was Illegal but there weren’t any “victims” unless you want to extrapolate into him being part of the sex worker trade by participating and supporting it.
ETA: what some in here keep failing to acknowledge for whatever reason is that many of Watsons accusers claim that they were legit message therapists that he “forced” himself on.
Sorry but your misinterpreting “forced” too literally- that’s why it was in quotes. As to the rest of your post - once again I’m at a loss on your perspective.You are right. I am not convinced that there was force involved. In fact, I don't remember that being an accusation even. This is the point on which things turn and I (we) will never know the truth. We can speculate and try to reconstruct the scene, but there will always be questions unless both sides publicly agree. Personally, I can't construct the scene wherein the therapist is completely naïve, unaware, devoted to her craft to such an extent that she can do it without arousal, yet helpless to decline his suggestions. It seems to me that such a person is strong and weak, aware and naïve, willing and unwilling, etc. That is, the person described would be four people. Again, I want to be clear that this is my personal assessment and (as ever) I could be completely out in left field.
I did not write that...I posted a story form the Atlantic, I keep getting quoted which is fine but I didn't actually write that, agree that it doesn't make a whole lotta sense, that section/sentence you quote.A what?