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QB Deshaun Watson, CLE (1 Viewer)
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
For the 4th time, Watson allegedly showing his twig & berries to dozens of women who *aren't* prostitutes is not remotely the same thing as Bob Kraft paying a hooker for a special ending at a rub & tug spot that got raided.
they’re not remotely similar things, and one punishment has nothing to do with the other.
And race, despite your greatest attempts to ridiculously assert so numerous times, has absolutely nothing to do with this.
The Black Lives Matter movement is about police brutality of people of color, not Watson ejaculating on the massage therapist who reportedly did not want Watson to ejaculate on them.
Repeating that assertion does not make it true.
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
DUI's can lead to death. That's worse. No? Potential death is worse, we can agree on that?
For black people, race has to do with everything. Kraft ZERO games - caught on tape. Keim - pled guilty to something that kills 10,000 people/year. FIVE GAMES. But Watson - SIXTEEN PLUS? You don't think there'll be blowback. Ooooookay.
And you're welcome to keep ignoring that the NFL presented the cases of 5 women, not dozens.
candian fantasy guy
Footballguy
Wait, some of you guys think he won’t get anything?
Which blowback do you think would be worse for the league?
1-no suspension
or
2- entire season suspension
Which blowback do you think would be worse for the league?
1-no suspension
or
2- entire season suspension
DropKick
Footballguy
Correct me if I'm wrong but Kraft hasn't played a game since the incident in question.
Not sure why you want to die on this hill... I am not one of those hammering Watson. I think he is a horny, creepy young man with a distorted view if the world but I don't condemn him. There are plenty of things that people, rightfully so, take issue with. Let's not take this down the race path.
DropKick
Footballguy
You guys and your "blowback"...
Watson has already sat out a season. Even without a formal suspension, some may be satisfied with the time served. That being said, I expect there to be a suspension; possibly in the 6-8 game range. However, I think another season is excessive.
candian fantasy guy
Footballguy
He sat out because he refused to play for the Texans. How can that count for anything?
PS - I only used blowback as it was used the previous few posts.
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DropKick
Footballguy
He threatened not to play and asked for a trade. Not all that different from Aaron Rodgers? Ultimately, he didn't play because the Texans chose not to play him due to the legal issues.
It depends on what the Disciplinary Officer determines that Watson did (or didn't do). It's absolutely impossible to second-guess any suspension (or lack of suspension) until we have that determination.
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
The NFL PCP applies to all NFL personnel. Kraft hasn't been suspended from being engaged with the Patriots. His case wasn't even reviewed by the NFL under the PCP (which it clearly should have been).
I agree with the creepiness factor on Watson. Seems an odd fetish for someone who has the world at his doorstep. But is the NFL legislating creepiness, alleged at that? To a harsher extent than Kraft who was caught on tape engaging in an illegal sex act? Or Kim for driving with a BAC of .193 (5 games) - who pled guilty!!??
But in saying 'let's not take this down the race path'...why wouldn't the African-American community not look at the comparable leniency afforded Kraft/Keim who from a legal and evidentiary perspective committed acts as (Kraft) if not more concerning (Keim), if Watson were to get the book thrown at him?
DropKick
Footballguy
Maybe they will look at Watson's actions and the number of women involved and evaluate the situation on its own merit.
For the record, I didn't blink when Ridley got a full year for gambling, something the vast majority of people do on a regular basis. That particular offense does not mix with the NFL. It didn't matter if Calvin were black, purple or green.
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
Every gambling suspension the NFL has handed out in its history has been at least a year.
greenmountaingoat
Footballguy
@TheDirtyWord
Unless you are black or have had specific conversations with black people on this exact issue, speculation about this is probably not helpful.
You might be right.
Unless you are black or have had specific conversations with black people on this exact issue, speculation about this is probably not helpful.
You might be right.
habsfan
Footballguy
To me the more obvious delineation between Kraft and Watson is that Kraft is an owner and Watson is an employee. The double standards between those two groups are as old as time and far more relevant here.
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
because they did different things that aren’t remotely similar in number of severity?
yes, let’s go with that.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
Oh...how many non-consensual sexual contacts turn into deaths/year?
Now do DUI's.
facook
Footballguy
This logic leads naturally to Watson's immediate forced retirement. Hmm...what a thread.
How many adult males have driven drunk and not been caught?
OK, now do adult males who have ejaculated on strangers against their will.
barackdhouse
Footballguy
I understand these rapes and assaults didn't lead to death (some did) but according to these sources there are ~10,000 alcohol related driving deaths in the US each year. And over 460,000 victims of sexual assault or rape.
https://www.bankrate.com/insurance/car/drunk-driving/
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence#:~:text=Sexual Violence Affects Millions of,year in the United States.
IMHO it is ok to think of non consensual sexual action as a very serious thing. IDK what did or didn't happen but I do know that it is ok to simultaneously respect the seriousness of DUIs *and* sexual assault. There are far too many of both in this world.
Did Watson commit sexual assault by using coersion or pressure to overcome the nonconsensual responses of these women? IDK and I am sure they weren't afraid for their life. Then again maybe I don't know that. Maybe they had already been one of the 1/3 women that will be sexually assaulted or raped in their lifetime and were traumatized by even the mildest advance from Watson.
IDK but let's leave DUI bull#### comps out of it. Man we need resolution on this thing.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
This is what’s known in the world of logical fallacies as “whataboutism” and “false equivalence”.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Listen to your own logic. You said it was less than a 1% chance. So if that happened, her opinion would clearly be in the extreme minority.
who knows what people would assume, but for certain to a majority of NFL fans, and a large swath of the population, that would be considered inconceivably light in terms of punishment for violations of the PCP.
you talk as though women have never acted in support of the patriarchy and/or for the benefit of billionaires.
Ghislaine Maxwell helped procure underaged girls for Epstein for decades, for example.
It’s a ridiculous if/then hypothetical, but hey, I’m bored so there’s a response.
The simple answer is that Sue Robinson could hand down no punishment & a great many people could still be extremely upset about it, regardless that Sue Robinson is a woman. Both of those things can be true at the same time.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
I don't disagree, it's just a question I'm asking out loud.... At that point, we'd have seen 2 grand juries say "not interested" and then an independant female judge also say "there's nothing here to suspend over"... and then of course a man (deshaun) claiming his complete innocence since day 1.
again, to be clear, Im not saying he didn't do some/much/all of what's being claimed. I'm not even saying he doesn't deserve suspension. Im just saying IF no suspension is handed down, at what point do people not say, "ok, maybe this was a little overblown?" and it very well might have been.
Get what I'm saying?
yeah-
but if that happened,
many feelings would be severely hurt,
bit it wouldn't be because of being wrong the whole time and buying the Buzbee circus hype
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
He's adequate (career backup) - but with their running game and defense, they likely still stay in and win some games with Brissett - but obviously he isn't going to be the reason they're winning games.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I do. I see you using a hypothetical to wish all this away.
I also see you using the GJ dismissal as somehow clearing Watson’s name, rather than a corruption of our criminal Justice system as the detective alleged.
Let’s see what Sue Robinson actually does instead of making up stuff she might do. That’s probably the better course of action:
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
The problem in your entire post is the baseline the stats you are referring to relate to criminal acts Watson isn't even accused of. The Texas crime of Sexual Assault is defined in Texas Penal Code Section 22.011
(a)The person commits an offense if:
(1) the person intentionally or knowingly:
(A) causes the penetration of the ###### or sexual organ of another person by any means, without that person’s consent;
(B) causes the penetration of the mouth of another person by the sexual organ of the actor, without that person’s consent; or
(C) causes the sexual organ of another person, without that person’s consent, to contact or penetrate the mouth, ######, or sexual organ of another person, including the actor
If Watson were to have been charged, what it would have been classified under would have been indecent exposure defined by Texas law as follows:
Indecent exposure occurs when a person “exposes his ###### or any part of his genitals with intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person, and he is reckless about whether another is present who will be offended or alarmed by his act.”
Indecent exposure is a class B misdemeanor punishable by up to 180 days in jail and a $2,000 fine.
So I would beg to differ with regard to whether Watson even accused of sexual assault. He wasn't. Even the details of the suits and complaints filed against him seem very clear...assault did NOT occur, and based on Florio's account, the NFL didn't even attempt to characterize his behavior as such. So in this instance, the complaints lodged are legally classified in the misdemeanor category. This is undeniable. We can't even say criminal charged because the complaints were dismissed.
The idea that Watson's team wouldn't look at other transgressions and the penalties levied by the NFL seems naive particularly since a white league owner (Irsay) and white league executive (Keim), pled guilty to the same classification/level of misdemeanor crimes as THE LAW defined them that Watson wasn't even charged with.
So what we have is - a white owner and a white team executive serving 11 games total for pleading guilty/admitting guilt in a court of law. But a suspension of a young black QB not even criminally charged for the same classification of crime for a longer period than that isn't going to catch the attention of the African-American community? A community that already feels slighted and disenfranchised by how systems of justice in this country work against them?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
This is still false equivalence, and once again, a shockingly terrible allegation of “racism”. Entirely dissimilar violations by two people who operate under entirely different sets of rules and not because of the color of their skin.
One, a billionaire owner not subject to the PCP who paid a prostitute, vs a player bound by the PCP under the CBA who allegedly non-consensually put his junk on dozens of women.
This has now been explained to you by myself and at least 4 others in extremely clear terms, yet you persist with this preposterous, illogical and frankly, offensive false equivalence.
Kraft’s and Watson’s situations are not remotely similar, and Bob Kraft is not subject to the PCP, because Bob Kraft is not a player.
You really need to stop with this nonsense. It’s so obviously schtick, and a disingenuous one at that.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
I said my hypothetical has less than a 1% chance of happening... I just want to discuss the outcome/repercussions IF it were to materialize.
OJ was 100% going to prison for life....until he wasnt.
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
Funny how you're accusing me of false equivalence yet you're not even referring to the owner in question in my post.
Nor Steve Keim, a team employee (just like Deshaun Watson).My clear terms involved invoking actual law and statutes as their written by the state judicial systems. What clear terms are you using. Your opinion...once again. You seem to think that supersedes law and the actual policy itself so let me point you to Gloria Allred's posting of the NFL PCP. I hear she knows the law a bit.
NFL Personal Conduct Policy
All persons associated with the NFL are required to avoid “conduct detrimental to the integrity of and public confidence in the National Football League.” This requirement applies to players, coaches, other team employees, owners, game officials and all others privileged to work in the National Football League.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Yes, let’s spend time and energy discussing the extremely unlikely thing.
And like OJ, I’m sure Watson is completely innocent. I eagerly await his book, “if I non-consensually ejaculated on those women”.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
The bogus racism allegation is what I have the biggest issue with.Funny how you're accusing me of false equivalence yet you're not even referring to the owner in question in my post.
My clear terms involved invoking actual law and statutes as their written by the state judicial systems. What clear terms are you using. Your opinion...once again. You seem to think that supersedes law and the actual policy itself so let me point you to Gloria Allred's posting of the NFL PCP. I hear she knows the law a bit.
NFL Personal Conduct Policy
All persons associated with the NFL are required to avoid “conduct detrimental to the integrity of and public confidence in the National Football League.” This requirement applies to players, coaches, other team employees, owners, game officials and all others privileged to work in the National Football League.
But it is STILL false equivalence because they did different things with/to a different number of women.
for the 6th time. Do I really need to explain it a 7th time?
Soulfly3
Footballguy
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
So why is it that you are referring to Watson's (a black QB) alleged transgressions as sexual assault when based on the details we know of and the actual Texas law I've provided here in this thread, that's not what was alleged in these complaints?
But when it comes to Irsay/Kraft, white owners...you erroneously state they are not subject to the NFL PCP - again, I've provided the actual link to the NFL PCP on renowned attorney Gloria Allred's site to disprove this. And claim 'false equivalence' when it comes to Keim, a white team executive, who pled guilty to the same level of misdemeanor crime AS THE LAW in this instance stipulates, that Watson wasn't even charged with? Dismissing these instances as irrelevant to the Watson issue?
YOU may not think race applies here. Is that a blanket statement for all humanity? Or perhaps do you admit that a community that already feels slighted and disenfranchised by how systems of justice in this country work against them might feel differently?
beer 30
Footballguy
I can't tell you what would be worse but I can tell you the audience for the two you mentioned. I think you can derive from that the amount of blowback that would come from either.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
because that’s what he was alleged to have done by his accusers.
And, in fact, I’ve not called it that since perhaps much earlier in the process. Not sure I even did then. I’ve consistently stated that he’s accused of non-consensually exposing himself, and in at least 1 case, non-consensually ejaculating on a massage therapist. Putting words into my mouth to “win” an argument is yet another fallacy - this time it’s our friend the straw man.
Once again. His being black has nothing to do with the allegations against him, nor is it in any way relevant. Continuing to assert that his race has anything to do with the punishment he’ll receive is both ignorant and offensive. Repetition of the lie fails to make it true.
Not sure how many ways I can say that, but there’s one more for the books.
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TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
So then if you're not calling it sexual assault, then you agree that under the Texas law governing non-consensual sexual contact...Watson's alleged transgressions fall under the category of Class B misdemeanor?
Other examples of Class B misdemeanors in the state of Texas.
First-offense DWI.
Indecent exposure.
Prostitution.
Failure to pay child support.
Minor drug possession.
Harassment.
False report to a police officer.
You're absolutely right with regard to him being black has nothing to do with the allegations against him. I'm not even arguing that. I am arguing about the penalties levied by the NFL for said behavior in which he wasn't even charged and as Mary Kay Cabot stated the following
“It's going to be difficult out there in the court of public opinion and they're (the NFL) going to have to walk this fine line between making it seem like they really do value, respect and believe women who bring these things up,” she said. “And also being fair to the fact that there is no evidence that anything happened.”
So in recent NFL history, we have white NFL owners and team executives who in 2 of the 3 cases, pled guilty receiving 11 games total. But in this case, with a black QB...and a fairly obvious statement to the fact that there is NO EVIDENCE anything actually happened...Watson would get a year plus? For a Class B misdemeanor rising to the level of seriousness as prostitution (Kraft) or DUI (Kim/Irsay).
The juxtaposition of how each situation was punished wouldn't catch the attention of the African-American community?
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-OZ-
Footballguy
the league can spin this in a way that there will be plenty of support for the poor, maligned, falsely accused players who is entitled to due process and a neutral arbiter.
i don’t think that happens, but many people would support the concept of his innocence. It’s already happening here.
yellowdog
Footballguy
bolded....at what point....?....how about at the the point where Watson who said he didn't do anything wrong and wouldn't settle.....settled 20 ####### cases....??????
now cue up the ..."ohhhh....but sometimes thats the best route to go and get things over with even if you didn't do anything" BS.....
you can bury your head in the sand, then crawl your way out and scream from the mountain tops that "settling" doesn't mean admitting guilt.....but then it would be time to blindly crawl back down the mountain and bury your head back in the sand while he has to go to court and try to resolve 4-5 similar cases of the exact same type of accusations....
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"I was also told the NFL presented no evidence of violence, force, threat or coercion in the allegations of the 5 women they focused on at the hearing before Sue Robinson, as first reported by @ProFootballTalk in part. "
https://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson/status/1545070725299585025
https://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson/status/1545070896003665920
https://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson/status/1545070997761556480
https://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson/status/1545071192159272961
https://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson/status/1545070725299585025
https://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson/status/1545070896003665920
https://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson/status/1545070997761556480
https://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson/status/1545071192159272961
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
The Josina Tweet...
I’m told there’s a recording of an interview with the adult son of 1 of 12 women the NFL interviewed in the Deshaun Watson case —stating his mom initially was complimentary of Watson in their conversations after the massage, but later switched her account and tone after negative allegations surfaced about Watson. The son intimated his mother intended to reward his silence, per league source. There's a feeling that the NFL was initially cagey about details they learned from the woman’s son—after only mentioning they interviewed him in their report. The son’s recording was later reviewed by Watson’s side revealing the aforementioned details —presumably illuminating why this particular accuser was not included with the 5 women the NFL ultimately focused on at the hearing. I was also told the NFL presented no evidence of violence, force, threat or coercion in the allegations of the 5 women they focused on at the hearing before Sue Robinson, as first reported by @ProFootballTalk in part.
greenmountaingoat
Footballguy
That seems "Watson side spin" ish.
10 games?
This board needs actual news. Sheesh.
10 games?
This board needs actual news. Sheesh.
