-OZ-
Footballguy
Yet, Adrian Peterson is still in the league despite the evidence against him.
grabbing the kids arm, by itself isn’t getting a player booted, even if there’s a video.
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QB Deshaun Watson, CLE (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Faust
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grabbing the kids arm, by itself isn’t getting a player booted, even if there’s a video.
what about him...?..
....I was responding to you saying there wasn't any evidence about Hill and saying you were correct.....Little is a completely different conversation....
dhockster
Footballguy
A little bit different as there are pictures of the kid with marks from being beaten, there was no video of the event taking place. It's a lot harder to spin a video of the actual event.
SwampDawg
Footballguy
I'm not denying it is a real thing, I'm saying I don't think these women (at least most of them) are real massage therapist. To start with Instagram is not the place I would think to go find an accredited massage therapist and secondly he lives in Houston, a major metro area with I am sure many accredited massage therapists. Why would anyone think being offered to be flown in from all over the country would be normal. There might be a couple out there that a re known to work with stars and athletes all over the world but not 22 of them.
pages and pages on it in the Hill thread.....basically she admitted to making things up and trying to set him up....
BigJim®
Footballguy
I'm not sure where the confusion is. Your reply to me seems to reject individual he said/she said claims and hanging a hat on the "22 conglomeration." I provided you unique individualized text exchanges, that would/could differentiate at least 3 of the claims and show why you need to know more than what a self-interested plaintiff attorney wishes to include within his legal complaint. There's always going to be more facts, individually as to each of these accusers. To my knowledge, only 2 have alleged assault.
smbkrypt24
Footballguy
so not for grabbing his arm, for breaking his arm.
Also, looking into that case he wasn't accused of child abuse. The reports were he was listed on the report. Unknown how was listed (i.e. father, perpetrator, etc).
JohnnyU
Footballguy
I believe I mentioned both in my original post. You answered the first half ( hill). Both got a second chance.what about him...?..
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skol asylum
Footballguy
Thanks. I admit I kind of missed the follow up. I may also be just a wee bit biased and bitter because I dumped Tyreek for peanuts in my dynasty league because I assumed he was done. The skeptic in my though says maybe it's exactly like I thought though and she backpedaled because of $$$.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I think it is a fair assumption. Could also be misguided love. Humans gonna human.
I highlighted the Hill part so that was the part I was responding too.....Hill never got a second chance because he didn't need it....he didn't do anything wrong to his child....
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yeah if somebody calls Capn grunge a wife beater....even tho you're not....it still follows you around because somebody once said it and some will still think there is a possibility that you are a wife beater.....and expect you to prove you're not...which you really can't....she admitted she was lying but people like you will still be skeptical....especially if you are bitter and kind of hold a grudge cause you made an uneducated snap judgement without knowing all the details and the real story....but you are not alone, lots of people did the same thing....and still do....we all do sometimes to a certain extent...
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I don't know what everyone is going on and on for in this thread today but when you can play at a high level you can find a job in the NFL and when your off field issues exceed your play you don't. It's always been this way and always will be but people still love to go on and on about players like Tyreek, Vick, AB, Watson being "done". This is not the way it works, not sure why people seem to have such a hard time understanding this.
SwampDawg
Footballguy
Who you find on Instagram. That is the thing, sure if he called up a friend in the NBA and they said hey this is the person you need to get or something like that I would buy it. But he is scouring Instagram for the best massage therapists? There are no quality massage therapist in the Houston area?
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habsfan
Footballguy
Maybe but what he obviously needed here was the Dr. James Andrews of massage therapists.
brewer
Footballguy
I get what you are saying about the Instagram part? Are there no prostitutes in Houston though? What he did doesn't make any sense from so many standpoints. I'm sure there are discreet adult services if he had looked for them. He didn't, he hired girls who were advertising as massage therapists (and at least some of them are legitimate massage therapists), tried(and succeeded in some cases) to take it further. I don't think you should be surprised when legitimate massage therapists get mad when you try to turn your massage into something else.
GreenNGold
Footballguy
I don't think that applies here, he found 22 different/random girls (and probably more that haven't come forward) based on their Instagram pictures, nothing to do with top notch massage therapist ability.
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Witness in Deshaun Watson cases repeatedly invokes the Fifth Amendment
...Questions that prompted the invocation of the Fifth Amendment included, for example, whether the witness knew Watson “had a fetish to go to a massage and then try to convince the unsuspecting therapist to have sex with him.”
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Wow, so as far as I can figure they are suggesting he sought out women who were NOT escorts wanting to convince them to have sex. Wow. I mean is that a thing? I thought for sure he was seeking escorts and accidentally got into situations with NON escort massage therapists.
Very odd if true.
...Questions that prompted the invocation of the Fifth Amendment included, for example, whether the witness knew Watson “had a fetish to go to a massage and then try to convince the unsuspecting therapist to have sex with him.”
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Wow, so as far as I can figure they are suggesting he sought out women who were NOT escorts wanting to convince them to have sex. Wow. I mean is that a thing? I thought for sure he was seeking escorts and accidentally got into situations with NON escort massage therapists.
Very odd if true.
ffmail4me
Footballguy
Unless what he was doing was against the law or forced. Maybe it was put out there that he likes massages and is open to dating...who knows...but I still say he's at most guilty of being a creep, not forcing anything on anyone. Guys of his wealth and fame just don't have to. If he did force his way on someone by all means punish to the full extent of the law...I just seriously doubt that is what happened.
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GregR
Footballguy
According to Buzbee she "allegedly worked closely with the Texans' organization" and "coordinated massage sessions for Watson".
He sent the full deposition transcript. Portions of it available at the original media source here: https://twitter.com/MarkBermanFox26/status/1486866944091467778
GregR
Footballguy
Listened to some legal analysis of this on Houston sports radio station today. I'd summarize what he said, as the inference would be that if what Deshaun was doing constituted sexual assault, that she becomes liable as an accessory if she was aware and setting up meetings with women who weren't aware of it.
Probably the other possibility being she was truly being a madam and finding women for him to have sex with for money, which I believe would also be criminally liable.
Either situation, this doesn't seem like it can be viewed as anything but a negative for Watson. My non-lawyer understanding is that while you can't use pleading the 5th to infer something in a criminal trial, you can in a civil trial. And that the inference can even be considered to be the worst possibility for the situation. As someone elsewhere put it, pleading the 5th can be worse for the civil case than giving the answer would have been. (But that answer could be used against them in a criminal case.)
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curious as to why you "just seriously doubt that is what happened"...?...is it really just mostly your belief that guys of wealth and fame don't do this stuff...?..cause they don't have to.....cause plenty have (Epstein, Tyson, Polanski, Weinstein, Spacey, Cosby, R Kelly, etc) ....and it is my understanding from some posts earlier in this thread that there were some instances were they are saying he did exactly that (force things on some of these ladies)....
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SwampDawg
Footballguy
After reading that it sounds like someone that may have some knowledge but wants nothing to do with this whole case and thus is using the 5th as a reason to basically say nothing. If I were a juror and heard someone take the fifth my first thought is they are guilty of that, in this case the way it is answered I would take it to mean they just don't want to say anything at all. Almost like Marshawn Lynch's press conferences.
Catbird
Footballguy
I don't see why people think this is terrible for Watson? If she was arranging sexual hookups for DeShaun, then these women were chosen because they indicated or responded to an implication that there would be a sexual component. The witness would have a good reason to plead the 5th, but if these women responded to arrangements with a sexual implication, that isn't going to help their claims that Watson was out of line - maybe soliciting prostitution, but that is a whole different magnitude of allegation. If she were instead making arrangements with women who were licensed professionals without any hint of sexual connotation or implication - as they have all pled - the arranger would have no reason to plead the 5th?
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Everyone has a reason to plead the 5th, guilty or not.
-OZ-
Footballguy
habsfan
Footballguy
Isn't it typically to avoid incriminating yourself? If I'm standing on the sidewalk and I see a hit and run accident, I probably don't invoke the 5th when I'm asked about what I saw.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Even the most innocent can be caught in a word twisting game with a good attorney and stir up a bit of doubt about innocence.
habsfan
Footballguy
Right but at some point you have to delineate between someone being a "witness" to something and being potentially involved in something. In my accident scenario, no one is going to accuse me of causing the accident. I was there and I saw something.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Or do you say a bunch of stupid stuff and make them think you could have been involved or maybe knew who did it, even if none of that is true. Just sayin.
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I'm still caught up on Watson having a 'fetish' of forcing women who are legitimate massage therapists into providing sexual favors, I am lost on that being a 'turn-on' for him.
Almost like the opposite of the Seinfeld episode with Jerry having great sex with a masseuse but he is frustrated because she doesn't want to give Jerry a NON-sexual massage.
Seinfeld and the masseuse
-OZ-
Footballguy
the forcing part is definitely wrong. But a massage is a sexual turn on for many. That being “a thing” is the least surprising thing here.
GregR
Footballguy
Not a lawyer, but if she is making the arrangements for him, and is/becomes aware he's sexually harassing them, and keeps making arrangements anyway... seems like she could be considered an accessory.
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Catbird
Footballguy
Good point, but I still don't see how her asserting the 5th further implicates Watson. If she says that what you suggest might have happened did happen, that could be damaging. Asserting her right against potential self-incrimination though? I don't see that one could draw much from that about what may have occurred.
GregR
Footballguy
Her pleading the 5th means a judge/jury can infer that she engaged in illegal activity around these events.
Two reasonable inferences for what that could be, are that she either arranged willing prostitution for him, or she arranged normal massages despite knowing he had a history of sexually harassing/assaulting said women, potentially making her an accessory.
The latter is obvious why it would be damaging to Watson.
If the former, establishing a pattern of Watson pursuing sex via massages does not seem good for him either. Especially if, say, women have all of their communications and a judge/jury reading them don't find anything in them suggesting they would have entered into the matter expecting it to be of a sexual nature.
I just don't see a scenario where adding into the mix "this woman committed a crime in her involvement" isn't a likely negative for Watson.
Catbird
Footballguy
First, I can't speak for Texas, but in my state the judge would instruct the jury that they are not to take any inference of guilt or criminal conduct from an assertion of the 5th. Whether or not that is true in Texas, the whole solicitation on Instagram and sex under the guise of massage would be such a big part of any trial that I don't think the assertion of the fifth by someone not on trial doing her assigned work will have a significant impact.
This is going to get resolved with a bunch of six figure settlements and I think it's quite likely that the only question remaining now is whether the women involved will be able to multiply their recovery by selling the intimate details. My guess is that the sides are trying to work out what that silence will cost Watson in addition to reparations for whatever assault, intimidation and coercion actually occurred.
This is going to get resolved with a bunch of six figure settlements and I think it's quite likely that the only question remaining now is whether the women involved will be able to multiply their recovery by selling the intimate details. My guess is that the sides are trying to work out what that silence will cost Watson in addition to reparations for whatever assault, intimidation and coercion actually occurred.
SwampDawg
Footballguy
I disagree. While neither is "good" for Watson if it turned out that it she was arranging known prostitution with these women I think the new fan base wherever he ends up takes that better then he was assaulting women hired for a legitimate massage. I would also think it would be harder for those women to collect, can a prostitute sue for sexual assault?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Absolutely. why is this even a question?
One has nothing to do with the other. One is a profession, the other is “being a victim of a crime”.
A prostitute can be assaulted just like a plumber, a bank manager, a dock worker, an artist, or a grocery clerk can be assaulted.
Just because someone is paid for sex work doesn’t mean they can’t also be the victim of a crime, even if the crime is sexual in nature. A prostitute charges for a service. Anything beyond that service is non-consensual. Non-consensual sexual contact = sexual assault.
SwampDawg
Footballguy
I admittedly haven't dug into the torrid details of what Watson is rumored to have done but I'm pretty sure if you are being paid for sex the guy pulling his junk out in front of you and touching you with it would fall under the paid for services. I haven't read anything about him tying anyone up and forcing sodomy on them or performing acts one would consider outside the norm with a paid professional. Now I have no experience in the area, if they were paid for playing massage therapist with extras would the exact acts normally be spelled out?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I was answering the question at hand.
Anything beyond the agreed upon services can be considered non-consensual, and thus would constitute sexual assault.
You asked a question:
The answer is "yes", absolutely they can.
SwampDawg
Footballguy
You're a lawyer or accountant aren't you to take it that literally? I think the context was pretty obvious if you are paid for sex and perform said act with no other outlandish acts is it sexual assault? Since I doubt most prostitutes keep a written contract of agreed upon services it would be a he said/she said as to what was agreed upon and I would think most common folk on a jury would expect certain acts such as the guy showing his junk and the female being touched by it as within the standard act of the contract. So unless it comes out he did something else more outlandish then what I have seen reported I stand by my statement that if these women were paid for a sexual act it would look better for him in the publics eye then if he was doing this to unsuspecting purely massage therapist.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
omg. No, I’m neither an attorney nor an accountant though I did take business law classes as part of my college curriculum.
You asked a literal question. I answered you literally.
Trust that I won’t make the mistake of responding to anything you post in the future.
GregR
Footballguy
DropKick
Footballguy
Catbird
Footballguy
Don't actually know whether a NM judge would be obligated to instruct the jury to draw no inference in a civil case. At the least, I think either side could seek such an instruction and the court would decide based on circumstances.
In our circumstance, the witness's guilt of anything would not be an issue in a 'Massage Therapist v. Watson' civil suit and she would be facing no penalty for the actions asked about, but that would make the facts asked about no less a potential criminal act that could be charged separately.
Its possible that Watson, knowing the question and proposed 5th claim, could ask the court to not let that question not even be asked of the witness as the only purpose would be to have the jury draw inferences where none should be drawn. There is probably caselaw in every state that would say how this should be handled by the court, but I'd be guessing at it.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Generally, that's a criminal standard. In a civil case the jury can make an adverse inference when a party takes the 5th,\.
