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QB Deshaun Watson, CLE (4 Viewers)

Dr. Octopus said:
In civil law knowing you should act on something and not doing so is a form of negligence.

The easy example is if you know there’s a loose board on your front porch and you don’t fix it and then a neighbor falls through. You would be negligent in the eyes of the law.
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Again, I get the concept of negligence. Just not in a ‘should have known he was a predator but did not intentionally assault’ framing. That’s fine, I don’t need to understand everything.

 
BigJim® said:
Again, I get the concept of negligence. Just not in a ‘should have known he was a predator but did not intentionally assault’ framing. That’s fine, I don’t need to understand everything.
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No the negligence isn’t that he didn’t intentionally assault her. Quite the opposite in fact - the claim was he was negligent to put them in a position where he would intentionally assault them. I’m just explaining the legal theory here - not saying I agree with the claim.

 
BigJim® said:
Again, I get the concept of negligence. Just not in a ‘should have known he was a predator but did not intentionally assault’ framing. That’s fine, I don’t need to understand everything.
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Negligent doesn’t automatically imply not intentional- that’s your disconnect.

Go back to the porch example. You intentionally did not fix it.

 
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Dr. Octopus said:
Negligent doesn’t automatically imply not intentional- that’s your disconnect.

Go back to the porch example. You intentionally did not fix it.
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Boy, you’re just going to drag me by the tail down the rabbit hole after I decided I don’t need to understand this, huh?

I get negligent personal injury claims. The basic elements are duty, breach of duty, causation and damages. In your example, I owe a duty to my visitors to protect them from unknown dangers, and I breach that duty failing to repair, hang a sign, etc. If that breached duty results in injury, it is the cause. If you suffer injury, you have damages (medical or emotional). Easy, and logical application of negligence.

My confusion is the harm in Watson’s case under the assault claims are his junk winding up in contact with a victim - something you’d expect to be intentional or accidental. For a negligence claim - His ‘duty’ is to prevent that thing from happening while receiving a nude massage? His breach of duty is scheduling an appointment? Going to or hosting that appointment is causation?

Really, you don’t need to spend time explaining dog bites, fallen tree branches or leaving loaded guns lying around. I get it. What I don’t get is applying the facts of this case to standard elements of a negligence claim.

And for the record, I’m not saying it is bunk. I’m intrigued to see these fact applied.

 
BigJim® said:
Boy, you’re just going to drag me by the tail down the rabbit hole after I decided I don’t need to understand this, huh?

I get negligent personal injury claims. The basic elements are duty, breach of duty, causation and damages. In your example, I owe a duty to my visitors to protect them from unknown dangers, and I breach that duty failing to repair, hang a sign, etc. If that breached duty results in injury, it is the cause. If you suffer injury, you have damages (medical or emotional). Easy, and logical application of negligence.

My confusion is the harm in Watson’s case under the assault claims are his junk winding up in contact with a victim - something you’d expect to be intentional or accidental. For a negligence claim - His ‘duty’ is to prevent that thing from happening while receiving a nude massage? His breach of duty is scheduling an appointment? Going to or hosting that appointment is causation?

Really, you don’t need to spend time explaining dog bites, fallen tree branches or leaving loaded guns lying around. I get it. What I don’t get is applying the facts of this case to standard elements of a negligence claim.

And for the record, I’m not saying it is bunk. I’m intrigued to see these fact applied.
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I haven’t read the amended complaint but they’re claiming, from what I’ve read, that (paraphrasing) “Mr. Watson knew or should have known that he was a sex predator/deviant and therefore should not have scheduled these appointments and put those women in jeopardy, therefore his negligence directly lead to the assaults” - his alleged assaults.

That’s just the legal theory at work and it’s a pretty good strategy because it opens more doors.

 
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Dr. Octopus said:
I haven’t read the amended complaint but they’re claiming, from what I’ve read, that (paraphrasing) “Mr. Watson knew or should have known that he was a sex predator/deviant and therefore should not have scheduled these appointments and put those women in jeopardy, therefore his negligence directly lead to the assaults” - his alleged assaults.

That’s just the legal theory at work and it’s a pretty good strategy because it opens more doors.
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It might be. Filing a new claim is not the same as having it in front of a jury. Maybe there is case law, or maybe this is jumping to the moon. We'll see if it becomes good strategy or fizzles as a creative idea.

Like I said, I'm more intrigued and curious than anything, unfamiliar with specific process rules protecting a fair trial for defendants. Assuming the rationale you describe is accurate, it reinforces my question of whether it becomes prejudicial to allow this claim type to be added; i.e. the only way to establish "he's a predator/deviant" is to tell a jury of 21 other claims - which may each ultimately resolve in his favor, but nevertheless paint the picture he must be a predator/deviant. I just wonder how a jury can fairly decide the merits of an individual claim. Suggestion of guilt x 22 could influence not only the negligence claim, but the intentional claims as well. But again, I'm intrigued. 

 
lol....the loose board thing kind of hits home for me because I have one leading from my garage into the house right now....it got me thinking maybe the way Watson does.....do I know its loose?....yeah I do....but right now I don't really care enough to do anything about it....I don't see it as a problem for me....it still works....at the moment, I'm not really worried enough about any potential consequences of it to address it right now....I don't see it as a problem....

 
How much the other complaints, suits, and non-accuser accounts get used as evidence in any given case is one of the things I have wondered about, and don't really know what we should expect. I mean I'm sure the plaintiffs will want them brought in and I'm sure the defense won't, so will come down to the judge applying the laws.

 
GregR said:
How much the other complaints, suits, and non-accuser accounts get used as evidence in any given case is one of the things I have wondered about, and don't really know what we should expect. I mean I'm sure the plaintiffs will want them brought in and I'm sure the defense won't, so will come down to the judge applying the laws.
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:goodposting:

It will be interesting. Definitely will be up to a judge. It’s standard to limit evidence of prior bad acts because you want decisions to be based on the facts of a particular case, not others. Texas has specific rules… Tex. R. Evid. 404.

Timing of 22 independent cases - which can’t definitively become ‘bad acts/wrongful conduct” until decided, seems like it would complicate using them as examples of being a predator. I’d imagine a judge would be less inclined to allow alleged conduct vs proven. If the rest of the elements of negligence rely on finality of a bad act, I’m not clear how it works.

Even if it does work, another timing curiosity for me is ‘when did Watson know, or reasonably should have known, he’s a predator?’ After the first massage? The fifth? The first informal complaint? When civil claims alerting him to 22 alleged wrongdoings were filed (i.e. long after it is possible to be connected to any of 22 ‘negligent’ acts)?

 
BigJim® said:
Even if it does work, another timing curiosity for me is ‘when did Watson know, or reasonably should have known, he’s a predator?’ After the first massage? The fifth? The first informal complaint? When civil claims alerting him to 22 alleged wrongdoings were filed (i.e. long after it is possible to be connected to any of 22 ‘negligent’ acts)?
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Good question. I suppose from my standpoint, after no more than the second time a masseuse breaks off the massage with me early upset over exposing myself to her and/or getting my junk into contact with her, I don't think I could argue I wouldn't reasonably know there was a repeating problem with my conduct. That's not even really counting statements made prior to actually ending the massage.

I think the difficult thing for the plaintiffs is that if viewed exclusively as individual events, a lot of it probably comes down to his word against hers. It's not like there's a video or recording in most/any of the cases.  IIRC there are at least a few cases where the woman complained to others about what occurred right after. But a lot of it comes down to seeing the repeat behavior, and the elements of it, that don't seem consistent with a guy just seeking a professional massage. With that coming from not just the 22 women, but from the ones who filed criminal complaints but aren't suing, and the others with similar experiences like the SI article quoted who weren't involved in either civil or criminal cases. And the one woman who they presented as one of his character witnesses who had warned other masseuses away from him because of his reputation around them that was getting out.

 
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BigJim® said:
Yeah... maybe there is case law supporting negligence under these circumstances. I suspect the add is a hedge for inability to prove intent or to pull in facts re: other accusations when the case should be about that accusation alone. 
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It’s common in civil litigation to include or add negligence counts to a lawsuit primarily based on what appears to be intentional conduct because negligence is typically covered by insurance whereas intentional conduct like assault is typically excluded under most forms of coverage. He may have a homeowners policy with a large umbrella or some other coverage through the NFLPA that provides coverage for his negligent acts. There are several reasons why a plaintiff’s lawyer might want to include a covered claim, even a weak one, to trigger coverage and bring an insurer to the negotiation table. I’ve not followed these lawsuits and have no idea whether this explains anything, but it’s a generally applicable concept in civil litigation. 

 
Soulfly3 said:
wow, now we have to monitor watson's control over coach stefanski...

all before he's ever even had a single snap in practice. AMAZING.
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No we don't. We have the option to ignore nonsense during clickbait season. It's just on us to actually do it. 

 
Although Florio needs these cases to settle to boost his ego,

The combination of the league's decision to  not put him on the exempt list and the delay of all cases to after the 2022 season would seem to indicate no settlements until 2023, if then.

He has no incentive to consider settling before then

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/04/10/none-of-the-22-lawsuits-against-deshaun-watson-will-go-to-trial-during-the-2022-nfl-season/

Via Adam Ferrise of the Cleveland Plain Dealer, the lawyers handling the cases have agreed that no trials will be scheduled between August 1, 2022 and March 1, 2023.

Tony Buzbee, who represents the 22 plaintiffs, told the Plain Dealer that he hopes to get a trial set for July. If that isn’t feasible, he hopes to have all 22 cases ready to go in March 2023.

 
Obie Wan said:
Although Florio needs these cases to settle to boost his ego,

The combination of the league's decision to  not put him on the exempt list and the delay of all cases to after the 2022 season would seem to indicate no settlements until 2023, if then.

He has no incentive to consider settling before then

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/04/10/none-of-the-22-lawsuits-against-deshaun-watson-will-go-to-trial-during-the-2022-nfl-season/

Via Adam Ferrise of the Cleveland Plain Dealer, the lawyers handling the cases have agreed that no trials will be scheduled between August 1, 2022 and March 1, 2023.

Tony Buzbee, who represents the 22 plaintiffs, told the Plain Dealer that he hopes to get a trial set for July. If that isn’t feasible, he hopes to have all 22 cases ready to go in March 2023.
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The only incentive to settle would be if the NFL delays any suspension until the civil lawsuits are concluded. If that doesn't happen until 2023, then any suspension that does occur for the 2023 season will happen when Deshaun has a base salary of $46 million. 8 games would cost him roughly $21 million.

 
Stinkin Ref said:
lol....the loose board thing kind of hits home for me because I have one leading from my garage into the house right now....it got me thinking maybe the way Watson does.....do I know its loose?....yeah I do....but right now I don't really care enough to do anything about it....I don't see it as a problem for me....it still works....at the moment, I'm not really worried enough about any potential consequences of it to address it right now....I don't see it as a problem....
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Sounds like Watson’s defense…

 
Dr. Octopus said:
I haven’t read the amended complaint but they’re claiming, from what I’ve read, that (paraphrasing) “Mr. Watson knew or should have known that he was a sex predator/deviant and therefore should not have scheduled these appointments and put those women in jeopardy, therefore his negligence directly lead to the assaults” - his alleged assaults.

That’s just the legal theory at work and it’s a pretty good strategy because it opens more doors.
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Haven’t read the amended complaint, and hope these women find Justice. But this seems like a stretch. 

 
OverTheCap.com's Jason Fitzgerald believes the Browns' deal with Deshaun Watson "makes zero sense at all." 

The Browns lured Watson by offering a fully-guaranteed $230 million contract, an unprecedented deal for a player facing sexual assault allegations from 22 women. “Clearly, [the Browns] were desperate,” Fitzgerald told The Athletic. “I mean, that deal makes zero sense at all. They threw an extra year on there. I am sure all the other teams that were in it were like, ‘We’re trading away so much. We’ll work with you a little bit on this contract, but we’re not doing that.’ Cleveland, it was like, after they got eliminated, ‘What if we offered him this?’" The Athletic's Mike Sando reported last week that NFL executives believe Watson could have undue control over the entire franchise with the massive guaranteed money, and that he wouldn't fit well in Kevin Stefanski's offense. 

RELATED: 

Baker Mayfield

SOURCE: The Athletic 

Apr 11, 2022, 11:55 AM ET
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NFL commissioner Roger Goodell said there's "no timetable" on the league's investigation into sexual assault allegations against Deshaun Watson. 

"We're taking it very seriously," Goodell added on the first night of the NFL Draft. Watson missed the entire 2021 season while facing sexual assault allegations from 22 women. This month, two women suing Watson added claims of claims of negligence and gross negligence to their lawsuit. Watson could miss a good chunk of his first year with the Browns if the league comes down hard on him. With Baker Mayfield all but gone from Cleveland, that would likely leave Jacoby Brissett as the team's starter while Watson is sidelined. 

RELATED: 

Jacoby Brissett

SOURCE: Jake Trotter on Twitter 

Apr 28, 2022, 7:24 PM ET
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Sports Illustrated's Albert Breer believes the NFL is likely "wrapping things up" in the Deshaun Watson investigation. 

NFL reporter Josina Anderson said league officials are meeting with Watson this week in Texas after a lengthy investigation into more than 20 allegations of sexual assault against the former Texans quarterback. NFL investigators, per Breer, "usually talk to the player last," indicating the league is ready to make an announcement on whether Watson will face a suspension. There's some question as to whether Watson would serve a suspension this season or next season. Jacoby Brissett would probably serve as Cleveland's starting quarterback if Watson has to sit out games in 2022. 

RELATED: 

Jacoby Brissett

SOURCE: Albert Breer on Twitter 

May 16, 2022, 12:02 PM ET
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Browns QB Deshaun Watson testified woman cried at end of massage, according to transcript

Cleveland Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson admitted during a pretrial deposition last week that one of his disputed encounters with a massage therapist ended with the woman crying, followed by an apology sent to her by text message from Watson, according to the woman’s attorney.

This verifies a portion of the women’s claims against him and raises the question of what caused to her cry during their encounter. In his deposition, Watson said he didn’t know, according to the attorney, Tony Buzbee. The woman is suing Watson for civil assault and claims in her lawsuit that Watson purposely touched her with his penis during the massage, causing her to feel scared and cry.

Watson left and sent her a text message apologizing afterward: “Sorry about you feeling uncomfortable,” he wrote, according to a screenshot of it previously posted by her lawyers. “Never were the intentions. Lmk if you want to work in the future. My apologies.”

The deposition last week was taken on behalf of the therapist, Ashley Solis, the first of 22 women who have sued Watson and accused him of similar sexual misconductduring massage sessions from early 2020 to March 2021. The encounter with Solis came on March 30, 2020, in her home in the Houston area.

“But you know why you sent that text apology afterwards?” Buzbee asked Watson during the deposition last week, according to a partial transcript obtained by USA TODAY Sports.

“Yes, because she was teary-eyed,” Watson replied. “And I was trying to figure out what was going on.  So, I assumed that she was uncomfortable in whatever reason.  And we talked about working in the future.  And so, I said, `We can work in the future.  Just let me know.’  And then I sent my apologies as whatever reason she was teary-eyed for.”

Solis did not reply to Watson’s text, according to her lawsuit.

Watson has other pretrial depositions scheduled for June but is not expected to go to trial with any of these lawsuits until after February, according to a deal between the plaintiffs and defense attorneys. He has denied wrongdoing. His attorney, Rusty Hardin, didn’t immediately return a message seeking comment.

The NFL has been investigating the matter and could suspend him for a violation of its personal conduct policy. It was scheduled to meet with Watson this week.

Watson, 26, was not arrested or charged in these cases. Two grand juries in Texas considered criminal complaints about him but declined to indict him on criminal charges. He recently was traded by the Houston Texans to Cleveland, which gave him a record contract of $230 million guaranteed over five seasons.
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Last week, Watson testified in one of the pre-trial depositions that a massage ended with the therapist crying, according to Brent Schrotenboer of USA Today. Watson also admitted that he sent her an apology via text message.

 
maybe im wrong, but i feel like we heard this story months and months back. maybe it was a "rumor" that was floating that is now 'confirmed'

 
Soulfly3 said:
maybe im wrong, but i feel like we heard this story months and months back. maybe it was a "rumor" that was floating that is now 'confirmed'
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Ashley Solis told her story to the media a long time ago. Deshaun just confirmed in his deposition that part of her story is true

 
Soulfly3 said:
maybe im wrong, but i feel like we heard this story months and months back. maybe it was a "rumor" that was floating that is now 'confirmed'
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The texts he sent her came out after the initial filing so well over a year ago now. That's not new.

Only thing that was "new" about was Watson admitting she cried when it was over.

 
Nothing new here but I think I've been citing AB's situation as precedent in this thread over and over again. The NFL can suspend based him based on what they investigated,but warn that if/when additional damaging info comes out(as in the trial) they can suspend further.  Main point is they don't need to wait until his cases are heard in court.

@JosinaAnderson

League source on if the NFL issues discipline for the 2022 season with civil cases unresolved, referred to Antonio Brown 8G suspension in 2020 for violations unrelated to Brown's pending civil dispute: "An example of an initial ruling & a warning delivered more could come later."

https://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson/status/1526958718386114564

 
On the radio (forget who) on Saturday, the speculation was that the NFL loves scheduling stuff like Bucs @ Pats after Brady went to the Bucs, etc. and because the Browns aren’t scheduled fo play the Texans until later in the year, (Dec 4th) that’s indicative that Watson is facing a lengthy suspension. Otherwise why not schedule that matchup out of the gate?

Note: not my conspiracy theory, just saying what I heard.

 
NFL wants another meeting with Browns QB Deshaun Watson amid investigation, per report

Excerpt:

Developments tied to Deshaun Watson's legal woes continued to surface Friday.

NFL officials want to meet with Watson again after interviewing him this week in Houston, according to a report from Cleveland TV station Fox 8, and several of the Browns quarterback's accusers participated in an interview that is scheduled to air Tuesday night on HBO.

Watson met with the league this week in Houston as it investigates whether he violated its personal conduct policy.

On Friday, Fox 8 reported Rusty Hardin, Watson's attorney, said the league wants to meet with Watson again. Hardin did not immediately respond to the Beacon Journal's request for comment, and NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy said, "We will decline comment as the review is active and ongoing."

Despite Watson being accused by 24 women of sexual misconduct during massage appointments and 22 of those women suing him, the Browns traded for the three-time Pro Bowl selection on March 18 in a historic deal with the Houston Texans. The Browns also gave Watson a five-year contract worth a record-setting $230 million fully guaranteed.

Several of the women who have accused Watson of sexual misconduct were interviewed for an episode of HBO's "Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel." According to a news release from the network, the women detailed the alleged abuse they suffered and shared their reactions to Watson’s record-breaking contract with the Browns.
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Browns QB Deshaun Watson's lawyer, Rusty Hardin, expects the NFL to make its decision on a suspension for Watson by June or July.

Watson is expected to meet with the NFL a second time after being interviewed for multiple days earlier this week. A decision on a suspension next month would likely be a best case scenario for both Watson and the Browns given the still pending 22 civil lawsuits against Watson. The league could wait until more resolution on Watson's legal situation to hand down discipline. Hardin said “no settlement talks are in the offing” in the civil suits with Watson.

SOURCE: Cleveland Plain Dealer

May 21, 2022, 11:21 AM ET
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ESPN's Sarah Barshop reports that a 23rd civil lawsuit has been filed against Deshaun Watson.

Barshop notes that according to the petition, the plaintiff "changed her mind about filing a lawsuit after watching the HBO Real Sports piece" that aired last Tuesday. We continue to have no real update on what a reasonable timeline looks like for Watson's return for the NFL, but it's probably not great news for said timetable if more women are coming forward. USA Today added another portion of the petition, which reads: "But it was Watson himself claiming that even now he has 'no regrets’ and has done nothing wrong that solidified her resolve. She brings this case seeking minimum compensation, but to obtain a court finding that Watson’s conduct was wrong.”

SOURCE: Sarah Barshop on Twitter

May 31, 2022, 5:39 PM ET
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"according to the petition, the plaintiff "changed her mind about filing a lawsuit after watching the HBO Real Sports piece" that aired last Tuesday."

If you have to wait to watch HBO in order to charge someone with a crime, that's not very convincing.

 
irish eyes said:
This will end up being the worst contract in the history of sports. 
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Worst contract and maybe even worse trade depending what Hou gets in the next few yrs out of the players. I mean it might end up like the Rams Goff trade to Tenn Where the Titans got some decent guys but nothing earth shattering and the Rams saying we could've had that guy. 

Either way it looks bad right now 

 
Faust said:
"But it was Watson himself claiming that even now he has 'no regrets’ and has done nothing wrong that solidified her resolve. She brings this case seeking minimum compensation, but to obtain a court finding that Watson’s conduct was wrong.”
Click to expand...


This is something I heard from a source and why the Eagles opted out of going after him over a year ago. Dude showed zero remorse and didn't take any of this seriously when they sent a PI there to talk to Watson and Hou. Apparently other organizations felt the same way. A lot of the leaked rumors about X Teams interested were all coming from HOU after most of the big names balked after meeting with Watson and seeing how he reacted to this. Clevland essentially was in a bidding war with themselves. Well played by HOU though and I'm shocked a guy like Berry not only traded for Watson but fell for that old trick. 

I even posted something about this further back in this thread during the draft season leading up to the Watson trade I believe. Also More teams balked do to the number of claims against Watson. If this was 1-2 maybe 3 women more teams would've been interested but when the number kept climbing teams went "hold up we might want to really look into this and be a bit more patient before making a move here." most teams were right in that action. The contract Watson signed with the weird 1st year numbers tells me that the Browns believe Watson will be at least suspended for the year. 

 
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