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QB Deshaun Watson, CLE (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Faust
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-OZ-
Footballguy
at trying to look like you don’t understand the difference between the conduct policy and criminal law. Right, and not necessarily the same allegations.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Correct. A grand jury doesn’t declare innocence. They determine, based on the evidence shown to them, whether a case should proceed to trial.
Capella
Footballguy
Capella
Footballguy
My understanding is she was at her house. A lot of massage therapists go to famous people’s houses or have them come to theirs for privacy. Should she have left, victim blamer?
DropKick
Footballguy
Could she have moved far enough away to not get ejaculated on? I'll leave the name calling to you.
ETA: And, for the record, I'm not defending Watson... just discussing the logistics of the allegation.
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give her a break
she's only reading from Buzbee's script.
It had to be sensational to up the pressure on Watson, since the last 22 cases did not do the job.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Yep. Imagine a top young QB up for a new contract now, who isn’t coming off a missed season, after having gone 4-12 the previous season, who reasonable fans respect, and actually benefits the community. Joe, Justin and a few others will practically be in a position to name their price. Really though they should demand more of a say in building their offense (within reason)
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
You seem to be implying (or just flat out saying) that all of these women are making this up.
Why do you think Watson hired so many different women for messages? He’s just really picky and couldn’t find a good one?
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
It's not an issue, necessarily, but anyone not wearing Browns' pajamas should be able to see there's something odd about that. I mean it's all part of the circumstantial evidence that something was amuck.
Why do you think he's hired so many different massage therapists flying them in from around the country, he couldn't find the one that could loosen his hamstrings properly.
Of course I'm not saying that just because he's hired 100s of different therapists means anything but combined with the multiple accusations and other evidence that's saying SOMETHING. It's ok not to care about the personal life of your favorite team's QB but let's not pretend that's "not the problem or issue at all".
daveR
Footballguy
IIRC, you're a lawyer or something. If you have insight, can you tell me why there was no testimony to the GJ from the women in this case? It makes no sense to me and lends credence to the "money grab" concept -- a hurdle people need to get over.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I have no doubt whatsoever that pro athletes occasionally get shaken down. Crazy, gold-digging ex-girlfriends are a real thing and this is exactly the kind of population that those folks target. I'm quite open to the idea that a professional athlete might fall victim to a money grab.
But this is way too many women telling the same general version of the same general story. The Bayesian in me finds it highly implausible that that's what's happening with Watson. He would have to be the unluckiest guy in the world for these claims all to be scams.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
How does the operations of a grand jury lend credence to this is a money grab?
What about the latest filed claim that asks for a bare minimum monetary award and is just looking for a Watson admission of what he did? Money grab?
What about the two women that pressed criminal charges but did not file a civil lawsuit. Money grab?
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Hey, Baker remember when we said we like Watson better than you? We were just joking.
Sure, because the 23rd and 24th allegations are the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. But 22, now that was a good safe number to give up a haul for him.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
It makes zero sense that a professional athlete would have 24 different massage therapists for purposes of body maintenance.
dhockster
Footballguy
Also, let's not forget "Mary" who SI reported on in 2021 for an incident in 2019. She has not filed a lawsuit or criminal complaint. And she did not hire Tony Buzbee to represent her. But she wanted her story heard to protect massage therapists in her industry. To me her story is very believable, and has as much corroborating support (texts, witnesses verifying she told them her story at the time of the incident) as you can have for a he said/she said situation. I find the fact that he contacted her several times afterward for a massage, she informed him she only performed professional massages, and then he did not book with her, very revealing as to what he was looking for in a massage. Here is the SI article if you have not read it (or if you have read it, it is a good re-read based on the information that has come out since the article was written).
https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/03/29/first-hand-story-of-deshaun-watson-inappropriate-behavior-not-in-lawsuit
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GregR
Footballguy
Not a lawyer. Just someone with a stronger interest than most in how things like the legal system work. So when these issues come up, I go do research. And also, I'm someone who values speaking precisely because a LOOOOOOOOOT of misinformation gets created by people's poor choice of wording. So I try to clarify when I can.
Like in this moment... I'm not entirely sure about the question. I recall reading that it's illegal to reveal what was presented before a Grand Jury, so saying no testimony was given seems like an assumption and quite likely an invalid one. Unless I'm wrong and it's been reported reliably somewhere, I just haven't seen it that I recall.
(If you want to read for yourself: https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/CR/htm/CR.20A.htm#:~:text=(b) A witness who reveals,and by a term of)
In any event, the prosecutor is presenting the evidence for the GJ to determine if they think there's enough evidence a crime was committed to go to trial. So I'd imagine he probably present the testimony from the non-criminal complaints if he can. I also don't know what the rules for evidence are related to the topic of establishing a pattern of behavior. It might not be admissible, I don't know.
(Edit to add: They may be allowed to disclose once the matter is done, not entirely sure the details there.)
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daveR
Footballguy
I told myself that I would never know the details & I wouldn't get involved in the guessing game, but here I am... Let's say, he had 1,000 massages. If 24 times, people were offended by his conduct, that makes 976 that weren't -- at least to a level of "no lawsuits". Does this constitute preponderance of evidence? I don't know.
I'm also wondering if the reason there were so many different people employed is because a second encounter could be deemed prostitution.
daveR
Footballguy
In response... If money fixes the problem, then it's logical to conclude that it was the goal. If the goal was something else, then perhaps, go through the criminal courts. That's the logic of the argument, and that's what I'm trying to dispel.
GregR
Footballguy
Criminal and civil cases have different measures. If likelihood of winning the case is a consideration, civil can make more sense.
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Once the first report hit basically anyone can concoct a similar story to say nothing of possible "coaching" by Buzbee. If a bunch of women not coached by an attorney with zero idea of other allegations were coming forward then that would be an extreme sign of his guilt but to me this is not that.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Civil claims are in place to protect people - money doesn't always "fix the problem" for the victim, but it potentially acts as a deterrent for the defendant to "fix that sidewalk" before the next guy also trips over it and you face yet another lawsuit.
If some one wrongs you and you want justice sometimes money damages are your only recourse. That's not a "money grab" necessarily.
I noticed you also ignored the women that I asked you about that weren't after money, since they don' fit your "money grab" narrative.
I get not wanting to root for a scumbag - as a Jets' fan I hated when they signed Michael Vick (and he at least served his time before getting rewarded with riches), but at some point you have to be fair about who the person is and not try to look so hard for an "out" to make you feel less scummy for doing so. If the Jets traded for Watson, I'm honestly not sure what I would do about rooting for him but I surely wouldn't be performing mental gymnastics to try and pretend he did nothing wrong at all.
Man, if that happens, it'd make an already bad trade (in my opinion) an outright catastrophe, and in the conversation for worst NFL trade of the last 20 years.
ETA: If Florio's(dubious source) point comes to pass and the Browns try to get out of his deal, they don't get any picks back from Houston right? If that happens, its the worst trade in sports history by a mile.
It was always a bad idea in my opinion. The difference between the 2 was never 3 1sts, and the biggest contract in history. Especially because none of us knew/or know yet, the extent of Watson's off field issues, and how they will play out.
ETA: Part of me wonders if Mayfield would even come back. Or just say, "screw you guys" and holdout, and force them to start Brissett, which would effectively keep them in last place.
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IMO...just trying to keep it simple at this point....I just don't see him coming back from this in any way unless it's proven to be a total fabrication/plot by all involved.....and I just truly believe that is not the case...
and when I say "coming back".... I mean playing another NFL snap.....
I don't see an area of compromise.... whether thats with "settlements"....legal hoop jumping....going to get "treatment/help"....advocating in the community...you know, all those things you end up "having" to do to try and "make things right"....ala Vick becoming an abused animal activist or whatever....
I think the damage has been done to the point of where I just don't see how ANY fan could stand up and applaud this guy....even with our over the top "win at all costs, I don't care what you do off the field so long as you help MY team win on Sunday" ....fan mentality....
I keep asking.....how can anybody want this guy as the face of their franchise...?
would you even want to be his teammate on the field at this point and go high five him or have him jump into your arms as you raise him above your head.....it just feels so awkward and yucky....
I have no desire to watch this guy play football.....let alone applaud him...I would however tune in every Sunday though to see the "reception" he gets in all 32 stadiums.....I bet that will be fun and not a distraction at all for him or the team he plays for....
I just feel he ventured into an area that is different then getting drunk and getting pulled over or drunk and making a bad decision...or having a gun....or beating up a stranger with your crew....or drunk and even killing someone in an accident....there are many things NFL players have done that you can maybe say are "worse" than what he has done.....but this stuff is just different and not only makes people angry....but also makes people continue to feel yucky when they see you....not just angry.....angry and yucky...
end game IMO: Browns get contract voided....never plays another NFL snap...
and when I say "coming back".... I mean playing another NFL snap.....
I don't see an area of compromise.... whether thats with "settlements"....legal hoop jumping....going to get "treatment/help"....advocating in the community...you know, all those things you end up "having" to do to try and "make things right"....ala Vick becoming an abused animal activist or whatever....
I think the damage has been done to the point of where I just don't see how ANY fan could stand up and applaud this guy....even with our over the top "win at all costs, I don't care what you do off the field so long as you help MY team win on Sunday" ....fan mentality....
I keep asking.....how can anybody want this guy as the face of their franchise...?
would you even want to be his teammate on the field at this point and go high five him or have him jump into your arms as you raise him above your head.....it just feels so awkward and yucky....
I have no desire to watch this guy play football.....let alone applaud him...I would however tune in every Sunday though to see the "reception" he gets in all 32 stadiums.....I bet that will be fun and not a distraction at all for him or the team he plays for....
I just feel he ventured into an area that is different then getting drunk and getting pulled over or drunk and making a bad decision...or having a gun....or beating up a stranger with your crew....or drunk and even killing someone in an accident....there are many things NFL players have done that you can maybe say are "worse" than what he has done.....but this stuff is just different and not only makes people angry....but also makes people continue to feel yucky when they see you....not just angry.....angry and yucky...
end game IMO: Browns get contract voided....never plays another NFL snap...
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Soulfly3
Footballguy
[PFT]The fact that Deshaun Watson was sued on Monday by a person whose name wasn't previously known to his legal team could create multiple problems for Watson -- including a possible (key word, possible) void of his many millions in guaranteed money.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/06/07/could-24th-lawsuit-against-deshaun-watson-eventually-allow-browns-to-void-his-guarantees/
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/06/07/could-24th-lawsuit-against-deshaun-watson-eventually-allow-browns-to-void-his-guarantees/
ffmail4me
Footballguy
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
This is not normal behavior for professional athletes whose job is to take care of their bodies. They have access to the best health care professionals, which includes massage therapy and others. You find the best one and you stick with that person. People literally fly their barbers with them on road trips, but this dude cannot find one massage therapist in Houston to stick with?
daveR
Footballguy
Let me lay out my personal "mental gymnastics"... Over the years, I've come to realize that the Browns will never consult me on anything. What will happen, will happen. Same thing goes here. We will watch it all play out, and I will continue to pull for my home team. The names on the backs of the jerseys will continue to change.
Regarding his behavior, I don't have a need to condemn people for their sexual habits. MOST human beings enjoy sex. In fact, if there is any truth to evolution whatsoever, then sexual proclivity is the one trait certain to be passed down. I DO have a problem with some power-related situations, such as rape and pedophilia. So, therein lies the question. IMO, as in the S.I. account, the therapist had the option of refusing consent. This is the "mental gymnastics" part, and I am sure that other people lean toward the opposite end of this gray area.
FWIW, I also find the shock, fear, disrespect, etc., "reactions" to be mental gymnastics that are being played up so as to bolster the lawsuits and to sell the stories. Without mental anguish, there is no damages worth compensating, no reason to hate on the guy. (Yep. Go ahead and rip me for it.)
daveR
Footballguy
I suspect, without real evidence, that employing the same consenting therapist would constitute prostitution, but I may be wrong.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
That makes no sense at all. I can have a relationship with a massage therapist and pay her for a massage using her normal rate and also have consensual sex and not be guilty of anything. Paying for sex with the same or a different woman 100 times is the same crime 100 times.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
So you think a woman isn't a prostitute until the second time she charges the same person for a sexual act? The first one is "jail free". That makes no sense.
I think what you're missing is that allegedly most of these women claimed to be legit message therapists, not a "rub and tug" massage parlor sex worker - they were charging for a massage and were not expecting to see Watson's snake popping out in the middle of it. That's the entire basis of their claims in fact.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
What if their sexual habits include non-consensually ejaculating on someone? I'm no big city attorney, but that certainly seems worth condemning.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
The level of competence for both of these attorneys seems a bit light.It feels like Deshaun is being represented by Amber Heard tier attorneys.
How, how, how do you NOT settle over a year ago?
Then go to the public with the happy ending effort.
Now you are blindsided by 2 new women? Who could have seen that coming?
"Good news, I successfully negotiated your parking ticket. We've pleaded guilty to attempted murder, and you'll only get 5-10 with time off for good behavior."
-OZ-
Footballguy
just because the thrill may be gone when you have relations with the same woman, it doesn’t make a legal difference.
Catbird
Footballguy
The idea that any of us dime store litigators is in position to judge and mock the quality of work from nationally respected attorneys who have seen and reviewed in depth all the evidence, know the laws better than we know fantasy football production and have spent countless hours working out strategies and steps ahead with teams of lawyers having tremendous levels of experience and relevant areas of specialization is ... amusing.
you really think that is all this boils down too....?....for paying for rub and tugs? really?
daveR
Footballguy
All I'm saying is that he could say the first encounter was about massage and that's what he paid for; the "happy ending" being a consensual bonus. After that, it could be asserted that it was part of the arrangement.
