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QB J.J. McCarthy, MIN (2 Viewers)

Carr is a unique case playing for an expansion team and getting killed by pass rush his first few seasons. I do think that affected his development.
This is more what I’m talking about. Carr, & Fields had both bad coaching and a bad OL.

And sure, Fields and Darnold could both be resurrected, but the plan for Fields was to sit a year. They threw him to the wolves, behind a bad OL with bad weapons.

Like Carr, he got a little shell shocked, and IMO it absolutely impaired his development by putting him into a situation where bad habits became ingrained.

Even Z.Wilson showed flashes in his 1st year+. That team killed him.

Players like Stroud are the exception, not the rule. I’ve been watching this sport for many decades, and I’ve see far more young QBs rushed into action having a negative impact than positive.
 
Maybe I'm the oddball, but I think O'Connell with Darnold might actually work. He has talent and O'Connell has produced with less...
I said the same.

That said the clock is ticking. They moved up to 10 to pick JJM. He’s going to start at some point.

I doubt JJM sits a whole year.
I'll be interested in hearing Camp reports. JJ was always a project with upside. Not every first round QB is going to be ready year one.
I think the best case scenario for JJM & the Vikings is Darnold is better than competent, and starts all year, maybe taking them to the playoffs.

The next best is Darnold is ~.500, but plays well enough to move for a need at the trade deadline, and they get JJM reps over the last 6-7 games.

Barring a playoff trajectory, I think JJM will get PT in 2024. The team is going to want to find out how ready he is for 2025. They have to find out.
Also, cautionary tale; Arthur Smith - Atlanta.

In 2022, he was insistent that Desmond Ridder sit most of the season to 'watch and develop'. Ridder didn't get starts until Week 15. He was non-descript but that gave the Falcons what turned out to be ridiculously false hope heading into 2023.

Yes, JJ is a better prospect. Yes, KOC is 20-14 after two seasons, not 14-20 like Smith was. But that mark is bolstered by an 11-0 record in one score games in 2022. When I look at the NFC North, I'd rank MIN as 4 of 4. If that's what winds up happening in 2024, and KOC heads into 2025, his 4th season, without having a firm understanding of what JJ is...that's going to be one untenable hot seat IMO.
 
Maybe I'm the oddball, but I think O'Connell with Darnold might actually work. He has talent and O'Connell has produced with less...
I said the same.

That said the clock is ticking. They moved up to 10 to pick JJM. He’s going to start at some point.

I doubt JJM sits a whole year.
I'll be interested in hearing Camp reports. JJ was always a project with upside. Not every first round QB is going to be ready year one.
I think the best case scenario for JJM & the Vikings is Darnold is better than competent, and starts all year, maybe taking them to the playoffs.

The next best is Darnold is ~.500, but plays well enough to move for a need at the trade deadline, and they get JJM reps over the last 6-7 games.

Barring a playoff trajectory, I think JJM will get PT in 2024. The team is going to want to find out how ready he is for 2025. They have to find out.
Also, cautionary tale; Arthur Smith - Atlanta.

In 2022, he was insistent that Desmond Ridder sit most of the season to 'watch and develop'. Ridder didn't get starts until Week 15. He was non-descript but that gave the Falcons what turned out to be ridiculously false hope heading into 2023.

Yes, JJ is a better prospect. Yes, KOC is 20-14 after two seasons, not 14-20 like Smith was. But that mark is bolstered by an 11-0 record in one score games in 2022. When I look at the NFC North, I'd rank MIN as 4 of 4. If that's what winds up happening in 2024, and KOC heads into 2025, his 4th season, without having a firm understanding of what JJ is...that's going to be one untenable hot seat IMO.
Like I said, they have to get JJM work to know what to do in 2025. If the transition plan is JJM = 2025 starter, he’s 💯 going to start games in 2024.
 
Normally I would agree but statenents KOC and the GM have made about QB development plan has been pretty candid and consistent.

They dont want to start a rookie before they have proven themselves to be ready to run the whole offense in practice.
I think this is correct.

I had heard before the NFL draft, before they knew which if any QB they'd draft, that KOC believed strongly in not putting a rookie QB out early on and preferring the development approach. I'm sure he'll eventually get some starts, but I think it might come later then people are expecting. Obviously a lot hinges on how Darnold performs, most around here think he'll stink, a lot of people I listen to that worked in the NFL are a little more bullish on him.
 
Carr is a unique case playing for an expansion team and getting killed by pass rush his first few seasons. I do think that affected his development.
This is more what I’m talking about. Carr, & Fields had both bad coaching and a bad OL.

And sure, Fields and Darnold could both be resurrected, but the plan for Fields was to sit a year. They threw him to the wolves, behind a bad OL with bad weapons.

Like Carr, he got a little shell shocked, and IMO it absolutely impaired his development by putting him into a situation where bad habits became ingrained.

Even Z.Wilson showed flashes in his 1st year+. That team killed him.

Players like Stroud are the exception, not the rule. I’ve been watching this sport for many decades, and I’ve see far more young QBs rushed into action having a negative impact than positive.
Ok.

So do you think if these players didnt play at all their first season or even second season that would make them good?

Obviously they should look better after a season or two of experience than they would as rookies.

But the seal has to be broken at some point to find out.

Those players may have been just as bad after waiting for one or two seasons before showing it.
 
Ok.

So do you think if these players didnt play at all their first season or even second season that would make them good?
Not necessarily. But had they sat and learned for 1/2 a season or 2/3 a season while running the practice squad and occasionally getting work with the 1s in practice? Absolutely I think they would have been better.
Obviously they should look better after a season or two of experience than they would as rookies.

But the seal has to be broken at some point to find out.
I never said otherwise. In fact I’m saying above that JJM should and must get that critical exposure this year at some point so the Vikings know how far along he really is.
Those players may have been just as bad after waiting for one or two seasons before showing it.

They may have been. But by exposing them too early we’ll possibly never know what they could have been had they been brought along slowly.
 
Normally I would agree but statenents KOC and the GM have made about QB development plan has been pretty candid and consistent.

They dont want to start a rookie before they have proven themselves to be ready to run the whole offense in practice.
I think this is correct.

I had heard before the NFL draft, before they knew which if any QB they'd draft, that KOC believed strongly in not putting a rookie QB out early on and preferring the development approach. I'm sure he'll eventually get some starts, but I think it might come later then people are expecting. Obviously a lot hinges on how Darnold performs, most around here think he'll stink, a lot of people I listen to that worked in the NFL are a little more bullish on him.
Yes. They have been saying the same things about QB development before and after the draft. Their message has been consistent.

The bottom line is they are doing everything they can to set all of their QBs for success.

We will never know what their benchmarks are or what boxes McCarthy has to check for them to think he is ready to play but I think its good that they have a clear plan and McCarthy knows what he needs to improve to check all those boxes.
 
If the Vikings had drafted Drake Maye somehow I think we would be having the same conversation here as far as when he would be ready to start.

It still hinges on how well Sam Darnold plays perhaps more than how ready McCarthy is I think. If McCarthy cant beat out Mullens thats a problem.
 
Well a QB running the scout team isnt getting the same preperation as the back up QB gets during regular season.

They are focused more on learning the opposing teams plays than the teams plays in that role.
 
If McCarthy cant beat out Mullens thats a problem.
I’m not sure that’s true. Whatever happens will be short term. It’s not like they’re going to drop JJM If he can’t, and Mullins is an experienced QB.
I think its a problem in the sense that a Darnold/Mullens led team isn't finishing with a winning record.

I personally think sitting rookie QBs isn't a benefit, unless you have a really good one ahead of them, which the Vikings certainly don't. I think people looking at Mahomes or more recently Love sitting are missing the fact they were sitting behind a pro bowl QB, and a 1st ballot HOF QB. If they still had Cousins, I'd be fine with JJ sitting (just as I am with Penix) but not behind random journeymen.

I'd let JJ learn on the job, especially with a quality supporting cast. This isn't some garbage offense where the QB needs to work miracles, this was the best situation any rookie QB got dropped in, especially once Hockenson gets back, but even without him, its a good group.
 
If McCarthy cant beat out Mullens thats a problem.
I’m not sure that’s true. Whatever happens will be short term. It’s not like they’re going to drop JJM If he can’t, and Mullins is an experienced QB.
I think its a problem in the sense that a Darnold/Mullens led team isn't finishing with a winning record.

I personally think sitting rookie QBs isn't a benefit, unless you have a really good one ahead of them, which the Vikings certainly don't. I think people looking at Mahomes or more recently Love sitting are missing the fact they were sitting behind a pro bowl QB, and a 1st ballot HOF QB. If they still had Cousins, I'd be fine with JJ sitting (just as I am with Penix) but not behind random journeymen.

I'd let JJ learn on the job, especially with a quality supporting cast. This isn't some garbage offense where the QB needs to work miracles, this was the best situation any rookie QB got dropped in, especially once Hockenson gets back, but even without him, its a good group.
What I’ve read suggested they want him to learn the terminology, get comfortable with the playbook, etc. He’s very, very young.

In general I agree with you - but with JJM I’d like to see him sit until the team is convinced they’re not going to ruin him by putting him out there way too soon.
 
What I’ve read suggested they want him to learn the terminology, get comfortable with the playbook, etc. He’s very, very young.

In general I agree with you - but with JJM I’d like to see him sit until the team is convinced they’re not going to ruin him by putting him out there way too soon.
1st round QB's don't sit behind Joe Schmo's. It's just a fact. Like Nix, McCarthy will be the full-time starter by week 5.
 
What I’ve read suggested they want him to learn the terminology, get comfortable with the playbook, etc. He’s very, very young.

In general I agree with you - but with JJM I’d like to see him sit until the team is convinced they’re not going to ruin him by putting him out there way too soon.
1st round QB's don't sit behind Joe Schmo's. It's just a fact. Like Nix, McCarthy will be the full-time starter by week 5.
I wouldn’t doubt it at all. I have it between 6-9, but it could be sooner than later.

I’m just glad it isn’t week 1.

That said, if they’re 5-1, Darnold will keep starting, IMO.
 
What I’ve read suggested they want him to learn the terminology, get comfortable with the playbook, etc. He’s very, very young.

In general I agree with you - but with JJM I’d like to see him sit until the team is convinced they’re not going to ruin him by putting him out there way too soon.
1st round QB's don't sit behind Joe Schmo's. It's just a fact. Like Nix, McCarthy will be the full-time starter by week 5.
I wouldn’t doubt it at all. I have it between 6-9, but it could be sooner than later.

I’m just glad it isn’t week 1.

That said, if they’re 5-1, Darnold will keep starting, IMO.
Yeah, as I said in the Nix thread, the fans will be fine watching the placeholder start, as long as they are winning. But if they lose, even if the placeholder is playing great, in comes the rookie.
 
Yeah, as I said in the Nix thread, the fans will be fine watching the placeholder start, as long as they are winning. But if they lose, even if the placeholder is playing great, in comes the rookie.
Since I have both the perfect scenario is Darnold plays well, but Vikes are .500

In goes JJM, they deal Darnold to a QB-needy team at the deadline.
 
What I’ve read suggested they want him to learn the terminology, get comfortable with the playbook, etc. He’s very, very young.

In general I agree with you - but with JJM I’d like to see him sit until the team is convinced they’re not going to ruin him by putting him out there way too soon.
1st round QB's don't sit behind Joe Schmo's. It's just a fact. Like Nix, McCarthy will be the full-time starter by week 5.
Nix will be the full time guy in week one.

I believe Darnold has a legit shot to keep the job all or most of the season. I can't make any proclamations about time because it's up to him and how he plays. If he stinks he probably won't survive the week 6 bye, if he's playing good football he can keep the job all year.

You may call Darnold a Joe Schomo, and you may be right and I'm certainily not going to argue against it, but he has his supporters in the league and in fact Denver was the Vikings comp for him. I'm actually very interested to see how he does, think he's got a decent shot to pull of a Baker Mayfield type resurgence.
 
You may call Darnold a Joe Schomo, and you may be right and I'm certainily not going to argue against it, but he has his supporters in the league and in fact Denver was the Vikings comp for him. I'm actually very interested to see how he does, think he's got a decent shot to pull of a Baker Mayfield type resurgence.
He’s also throwing to JJ, Addison, and at some point Hock, and doing so behind a top 5 OL, with what should be a defense good enough to keep them in games.

In that light he’s set up for success without question.

Also in that light, if Darnold can’t have success in this situation, this could be the last stop for him.
 
When KOC first became coach of the Vikings, one of the things I remember is him encouraging or challenging Cousins to take more risks.

Part of this was specific to Cousins who received a lot of critism for checking down. Padding his stats. Also his relationship with Zimmer who had Cousins scared to turn the ball over.

Anyhow I only mention this to say KOC has some tolerance for turnovers if the other plays are mostly good.

The limit to that is Nick Mullens 4 interceptions a game.

I think Darnold is a more gifted QB than Mullens ever will be. I think he can keep the offense moving. Can he turn it over less than Mullens though?
 
On Rich Eisen show about a week or so ago, I felt like Jefferson almost avoided Sam Darnold Qs and had a fair explanation on McCarthy.

I don't ever relate well to players being in a position to make roster decisions or starter decisions as they sometimes are in today's NFL but all the times he said "they asked me" I guess Jefferson has some say.

What did y'all think of the interview? And did you read too much into it like me or am I overreacting?
 
Dobbs was a limited QB that was full of fire or spunk or chutzpa (or some word) that was also a NASA type genius.
Once he struggled, the fire was gone and the staff looked like they couldn't make it work for him.
Why?

If ya asked me, I'd probably have had Dobbs and Darnold as like my 60th and 61st QB last year. Why the positivity around Darnold if Dobbs flopped?

As Bia mentions, Minny has had a lot of conversations about risk for many years now and Dobbs was ballsy and smart so how are you coaching it?

When inexperienced QBs struggle, OCs should run to let em settle down and maybe call some vanilla pass plays to let em get their feet under them again. They didn't do this with Dobbs. It was as if he started with stripped down plug n play offense and then added wrinkles and when he struggled they just let him figuring he's a vet or he's smart enough or whatever.

I haven't heard KOC say they should have done this n that differently and I want to.

With all the rookie issues and the well traveled backups, everyone keeps comparing Viking QBs to Cousins but I think Dobbs has more in common with their current QBs than Cousins.

I could care less truly why Dobbs failed from a root for Dobbs perspective but I think it's so very important to this new QB room. Vaguely, the same issues will do these guys in too, but did the staff learn and plan to do XYZ this year?
 
If ya asked me, I'd probably have had Dobbs and Darnold as like my 60th and 61st QB last year. Why the positivity around Darnold if Dobbs flopped?
Dobbs came in mid season and I think started (or at least relieved) the week he got there. Jumping in midseason and trying to get on the same page with WR's and learn the playbook will be a daunting task no matter how smart you are. Darnold has an entire offseason, training camp, etc to get prepared. He has a better chance of doing ok strictly on that prep time. That is likely why there is some optimism.

I personally don't have that optimism as I think Darnold is terrible and will be out by the bye week.
 
I think if Darnold holds the job all year, it'd be an unprecedented surprise, and/or an indictment on McCarthy. I think Darnold being an upgrade on Mullens is a legit question.

I don't really see any similarity between Darnold and Mayfield going into last year. Mayfield had been a good QB for most of his Browns career, up until the shoulder injury. He also didn't have a high 1st round pick breathing down his neck in Tampa. I'm honestly struggling to even think of a similar comp to Darnold suddenly turning it on after showing next to nothing for 6 years. Maybe Geno Smith, but Geno doesn't get that job if he doesn't have that great month (FAR better than Darnold has ever been) when Russ was out, and even then, needed a team to give up a ton to trade for Russ so there was no competition.

Are there any busts who signed with new teams and turned their career around while holding off a top pick in history? Not decent QBs who suddenly started playing better (like Tannehill) but someone like Darnold who has never shown anything.

Chris Chandler in 1995 holding off Steve McNair is probably the best, but McNair was a package QB, who was a unique case.
Jon Kitna in 2003 holding off Carson Palmer is probably pushing it, as Kitna had led the 1999 Seahawks to the playoffs.
Lynn Dickey in 1981 held off Rich Campbell and became the Packers starter for the next several years, but he'd been on the team for 4 years by that point.

If Mitch Trubisky had suddenly started playing well in Pittsburgh, and held off Pickett, I think that would have been a similar situation, but that didn't happen, and even Trubisky had a division title to his name. Historically speaking, there is zero reason to expect Darnold to be anything other than the mediocre backup caliber QB he's always been, with maybe a 1-50 chance he's another Chris Chandler. The most likely scenario is the Trubisky Pittsburgh one, and hopefully for Vikings fans, McCarthy is a lot better than Kenny Pickett.
 
I think if Darnold holds the job all year, it'd be an unprecedented surprise, and/or an indictment on McCarthy. I think Darnold being an upgrade on Mullens is a legit question.

I don't really see any similarity between Darnold and Mayfield going into last year. Mayfield had been a good QB for most of his Browns career, up until the shoulder injury. He also didn't have a high 1st round pick breathing down his neck in Tampa. I'm honestly struggling to even think of a similar comp to Darnold suddenly turning it on after showing next to nothing for 6 years. Maybe Geno Smith, but Geno doesn't get that job if he doesn't have that great month (FAR better than Darnold has ever been) when Russ was out, and even then, needed a team to give up a ton to trade for Russ so there was no competition.

Are there any busts who signed with new teams and turned their career around while holding off a top pick in history? Not decent QBs who suddenly started playing better (like Tannehill) but someone like Darnold who has never shown anything.

Chris Chandler in 1995 holding off Steve McNair is probably the best, but McNair was a package QB, who was a unique case.
Jon Kitna in 2003 holding off Carson Palmer is probably pushing it, as Kitna had led the 1999 Seahawks to the playoffs.
Lynn Dickey in 1981 held off Rich Campbell and became the Packers starter for the next several years, but he'd been on the team for 4 years by that point.

If Mitch Trubisky had suddenly started playing well in Pittsburgh, and held off Pickett, I think that would have been a similar situation, but that didn't happen, and even Trubisky had a division title to his name. Historically speaking, there is zero reason to expect Darnold to be anything other than the mediocre backup caliber QB he's always been, with maybe a 1-50 chance he's another Chris Chandler. The most likely scenario is the Trubisky Pittsburgh one, and hopefully for Vikings fans, McCarthy is a lot better than Kenny Pickett.
I would be shocked if Darnold is the starter all season. Seems like we have seen enough to know he is a solid backup but not a starting QB in the NFL.
 
H
I think if Darnold holds the job all year, it'd be an unprecedented surprise, and/or an indictment on McCarthy. I think Darnold being an upgrade on Mullens is a legit question.

I don't really see any similarity between Darnold and Mayfield going into last year. Mayfield had been a good QB for most of his Browns career, up until the shoulder injury. He also didn't have a high 1st round pick breathing down his neck in Tampa. I'm honestly struggling to even think of a similar comp to Darnold suddenly turning it on after showing next to nothing for 6 years. Maybe Geno Smith, but Geno doesn't get that job if he doesn't have that great month (FAR better than Darnold has ever been) when Russ was out, and even then, needed a team to give up a ton to trade for Russ so there was no competition.

Are there any busts who signed with new teams and turned their career around while holding off a top pick in history? Not decent QBs who suddenly started playing better (like Tannehill) but someone like Darnold who has never shown anything.

Chris Chandler in 1995 holding off Steve McNair is probably the best, but McNair was a package QB, who was a unique case.
Jon Kitna in 2003 holding off Carson Palmer is probably pushing it, as Kitna had led the 1999 Seahawks to the playoffs.
Lynn Dickey in 1981 held off Rich Campbell and became the Packers starter for the next several years, but he'd been on the team for 4 years by that point.

If Mitch Trubisky had suddenly started playing well in Pittsburgh, and held off Pickett, I think that would have been a similar situation, but that didn't happen, and even Trubisky had a division title to his name. Historically speaking, there is zero reason to expect Darnold to be anything other than the mediocre backup caliber QB he's always been, with maybe a 1-50 chance he's another Chris Chandler. The most likely scenario is the Trubisky Pittsburgh one, and hopefully for Vikings fans, McCarthy is a lot better than Kenny Pickett.
I would be shocked if Darnold is the starter all season. Seems like we have seen enough to know he is a solid backup but not a starting QB in the NFL.
He's had a couple solid stretches of play despite being put in some really bad situations. The last 4 games of his rookie year after coming back from a shoulder injury, he completed 64% for 931 yards, 6 TDs and 1 Int plus another 77 rushing. 2 years ago with Carolina he went 4-2, 1140 yards 7/3 with 106 and 2 on the ground. It wasn't a full game but against the Rams but he threw for almost 200 yards and 1 TD ran for another 20 and a TD. He's not as accurate as you want and he's still mistake prone but I don't think he is nearly as bad as people think. With Jefferson, Addison (asterik here) and Aaron Jones, he might find himself having some success. He just turned 27 so in theory he's just approaching his best play.
 
and/or an indictment on McCarthy.
This keeps coming up, and it’s again worth pointing out that the Vikings themselves have said how raw he is, and that they won’t be putting him out there until they’re convinced he’s ready.

Ipso facto, if JJM doesn’t start this year it would be like indicting water for being wet.
:shrug:
But what if Jefferson wants him?
How does that work?
 
and/or an indictment on McCarthy.
This keeps coming up, and it’s again worth pointing out that the Vikings themselves have said how raw he is, and that they won’t be putting him out there until they’re convinced he’s ready.

Ipso facto, if JJM doesn’t start this year it would be like indicting water for being wet.
:shrug:
But what if Jefferson wants him?
How does that work?
It puts JJ in line to apply for the offensive coordinator job? :shrug:
 
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What I’ve read suggested they want him to learn the terminology, get comfortable with the playbook, etc. He’s very, very young.

In general I agree with you - but with JJM I’d like to see him sit until the team is convinced they’re not going to ruin him by putting him out there way too soon.
1st round QB's don't sit behind Joe Schmo's. It's just a fact. Like Nix, McCarthy will be the full-time starter by week 5.
The biggest difference between McCarthy and Nix is the team's likely record. The odds Denver is winning games while Nix sits aren't very high. Minnesota might be.
 
I think the most important part so far is McCarthy is getting 2nd team reps in pactice. He is already ahead of Nick Mullens.

Its still early but I have heard he looks good and seems to have improved since OTAs.

He seems to be on track to be the back up QB now.

Baby Steps.
 
I heard some more details about him working out with Adam Thielen and I guess it was CJ Ham who gave McCarthy Thielens phone #

They did work on things specific to the Vikings offense that Thielen is familiar with and as always Thielen communicates each play from his perspective. The timing of it and where the ball placement should be.

There must have been some imperfect throws as McCarthy gives Thielen credit for being able to adjust and still make the catch on these throws.

I think McCarthy got more out of that than it just being a nice story.
 
I think the most important part so far is McCarthy is getting 2nd team reps in pactice. He is already ahead of Nick Mullens.

Its still early but I have heard he looks good and seems to have improved since OTAs.

He seems to be on track to be the back up QB now.

Baby Steps.
Agreed. That’s the 1st step: be better than Nick Mullens.
 
Its still early but listening to Matthew Colliers podcast from after the first practice with pads his guest says McCarthy might look better than Darnold does now.

Then they pump the breaks a bit and do say McCarthy is holding the ball too long. Its still taking time for him to get through his reads. The defense is likely doing things he hasnt seen before.

This is not to say Darnold hasnt also looked good, but it sounds like McCarthy has really closed that gap between them in a short time. He has improved since otas.
 
This is not to say Darnold hasnt also looked good, but it sounds like McCarthy has really closed that gap between them in a short time. He has improved since otas.
Saw some nice video of Darnold today on Xwitter, so I'm fully expecting Darnold to be opening day starting QB. And I'm totally OK with that.
 
This is not to say Darnold hasnt also looked good, but it sounds like McCarthy has really closed that gap between them in a short time. He has improved since otas.
Saw some nice video of Darnold today on Xwitter, so I'm fully expecting Darnold to be opening day starting QB. And I'm totally OK with that.
Yeah McCarthys time practicing with the 1st team offense has been short. Darnold as far as I have heard is still ahead of McCarthy on the depth chart.

The 2nd team offense does go against 1st team defense in practice at times, so he is getting that experience but he hasn't outplayed Darnold yet.
 
Anyone see the interception in the 1st Half?
That was before JJ found a couple of wide open WRs that likely won't be that open during the regular season
Interesting debut for the rookie tonight
 

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