Questions about Covid (1 Viewer)

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I kind of wish I had done one before I got vaccinated, but at this point the antibody test wouldn't be able to distinguish between vaccination and previous infection, right?

It is able to determine a prior infection independent of vaccination.

I have taken one and it confirmed I had circulating Antibodies from the vaccine (IgG) but I had no markers of prior Covid infection (IgM). 
 

https://imgur.com/a/0xkt1Xq

 

[jamny]

Have they used mRNA technology for flu vaccines?

Will it be possible to do a combined covid/flu mRNA based vaccine or will they be more like traditional flu vaccines?

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Have they used mRNA technology for flu vaccines?

Will it be possible to do a combined covid/flu mRNA based vaccine or will they be more like traditional flu vaccines?

No, COVID was the first one to use mRNA technology. They're hopeful that its success will lead to other uses, including but not limited to flu vaccines. And I guess the answer to your last question will depend on the delivery mechanism. Meaning COVID uses the spike protein, but influenza might not be able to deliver via that same structure. 

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

It is able to determine a prior infection independent of vaccination.

I have taken one and it confirmed I had circulating Antibodies from the vaccine (IgG) but I had no markers of prior Covid infection (IgM). 
 

https://imgur.com/a/0xkt1Xq

This was an OTC or lab test? I see order by an NP so assuming lab?

 

[jamny]

‘It is embarrassing’: CDC struggles to track Covid cases as Omicron looms

“I think we've done a horrible job from day one in data tracking for the pandemic,” said Eric Topol, a professor of molecular medicine at Scripps Research and former advisory board member of the Covid Tracking Project, a team that worked to collect and synthesize local Covid-19 during the peak of the pandemic. “We're not tracking all the things that we need to to get a handle on what's going on. It is embarrassing.”

Great article that really sums up a lot of what I've been trying to articulate.

“We're relying on everyone else's data. We should be providing data to the world and we are not,” said Zeke Emanuel, a bioethicist and former member of President Biden’s transition Covid-19 advisory board. “We started [the pandemic] with a serious problem of not enough data and bad data infrastructure. We have not made the structural investments we need. The ideal is that we have real time data. And we don't have that. We're not even close to that.”

 

[ericttspikes]

Have they used mRNA technology for flu vaccines?

Will it be possible to do a combined covid/flu mRNA based vaccine or will they be more like traditional flu vaccines?

Moderna is working on a combo Covid/flu/RSV vaccine. I'm sure Pfizer/BioNtech is doing something similar.

COVID-19 and flu combination vaccine (mRNA-1073): mRNA-1073 encodes for the COVID-19 spike protein and the Flu HA glycoproteins.

Respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) vaccine (mRNA-1345): The first participants have been dosed in the Phase 2/3 study of mRNA-1345, known as ConquerRSV. Moderna is choosing study locations in the U.S. and internationally based on the ongoing epidemiology of RSV. The primary purpose of the Phase 2 segment of the study is to evaluate the safety of mRNA-1345 vaccine in adults older than 60 years of age for initiation of the large‑scale Phase 3 segment of the study. The primary purpose of the Phase 3 segment of the study is to establish the safety and efficacy of mRNA-1345 vaccine in adults older than 60 years of age in support of licensure. Moderna expects to enroll approximately 34,000 participants into the study. There is no approved vaccine to prevent RSV.

https://www.biospace.com/article/releases/moderna-announces-advances-across-its-industry-leading-mrna-pipeline-and-provides-business-update/?s=86

 

[[icon]]

This was an OTC or lab test? I see order by an NP so assuming lab?

This was at walgreens using a blood sample (Finger #####) IIRC. 

 

[jamny]

#####

 

[Doug B]

Simple Antibody test at Walgreens or CVS can detect previous infection. 

Is there an antibody test that's not a blood draw? Didn't think they'd do those kinds of test at a chain drugstore.

 

[[icon]]

Is there an antibody test that's not a blood draw? Didn't think they'd do those kinds of test at a chain drugstore.

Not that I'm aware of. It's not really a blood draw, its a simple p.rick of the finger tip. In and out in 15 mins and your finger will stop bleeding before you get your results  

 

[Tecumseh]

Moderna is working on a combo Covid/flu/RSV vaccine. I'm sure Pfizer/BioNtech is doing something similar.

COVID-19 and flu combination vaccine (mRNA-1073): mRNA-1073 encodes for the COVID-19 spike protein and the Flu HA glycoproteins.

Respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) vaccine (mRNA-1345): The first participants have been dosed in the Phase 2/3 study of mRNA-1345, known as ConquerRSV. Moderna is choosing study locations in the U.S. and internationally based on the ongoing epidemiology of RSV. The primary purpose of the Phase 2 segment of the study is to evaluate the safety of mRNA-1345 vaccine in adults older than 60 years of age for initiation of the large‑scale Phase 3 segment of the study. The primary purpose of the Phase 3 segment of the study is to establish the safety and efficacy of mRNA-1345 vaccine in adults older than 60 years of age in support of licensure. Moderna expects to enroll approximately 34,000 participants into the study. There is no approved vaccine to prevent RSV.

https://www.biospace.com/article/releases/moderna-announces-advances-across-its-industry-leading-mrna-pipeline-and-provides-business-update/?s=86

I hope the RSV vaccine works, and is able to be adjusted for kids sooner rather than later. Every winter our hospital got slammed with pediatric RSV patients. Even last summer RSV was raging.

 

[Terminalxylem]

So how do we know if anyone died from covid? Wouldn't that be a privacy issue too?

Why isn't it broken down by variant?

I'll try answering this again: Variant testing isn't routinely done, takes time and money, and doesn't change clinical management. We're already having trouble keeping up with testing demands. We don't need to further overwhelm labs with unnecessary tests.

Covid as the principal cause of death is mined from death certificates. These contain limited information, and SARS-CoV-2 strain isn't included. This assumes the test had already been done, which is highly unlikely for any individual patient. Otherwise, you're expending other resources to test post-mortem, which requires consent from the family.

 

[Terminalxylem]

That brings up another question. Can some people just never get infected from covid?

Unknown, but wouldn't be shocking, as there are individual differences in the structure, distribution and density of the receptors the virus uses for cell entry. Our immune systems also have subtle variation, and it's possible some people are much more resistant to infection related to their genetics.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I asked @Terminalxylem this a while back if such a test existed that would distinguish antibody type, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he told me it would require a specific lab test, but that could identify antibody type. So that said, I doubt the OTC tests will do that. 

Correct. There are commercial tests which distinguish immunity from infection vs. vaccination, but I have no idea about their availability.

Basically, anti-nucleocapsid antibodies test for prior infection. Anti-spike antibodies are present post-immunization and following infection.

Most tests only look for anti-spike, but some check both types of antibodies.

 

[Terminalxylem]

It is able to determine a prior infection independent of vaccination.

I have taken one and it confirmed I had circulating Antibodies from the vaccine (IgG) but I had no markers of prior Covid infection (IgM). 
 

https://imgur.com/a/0xkt1Xq

Not exactly. IgG and IgM are different classes of immunoglobulins (antibodies), produced at different times in response to a foreign antigen (non-self proteins). That antigen can be derived from infection or vaccination.

IgM are the earliest antibodies seen in serum, while IgG develop later, and last longer. Just knowing IgG versus IgM doesn't automatically tell you why the antibodies are present. 

That distinction is made based on the antibody's target: anti-spike versus anti-something else, usually nucleocapsid. The former is seen following infection or vaccination, while the latter can only develop in natural immunity (vaccines don't include nucleocapsid). Both antibodies can be IgG and/or IgM.

There are other immunoglobulin types as well (IgA, D and E), but measuring them is less useful.

 

[Terminalxylem]

No, COVID was the first one to use mRNA technology. They're hopeful that its success will lead to other uses, including but not limited to flu vaccines. And I guess the answer to your last question will depend on the delivery mechanism. Meaning COVID uses the spike protein, but influenza might not be able to deliver via that same structure. 

In theory you could develop an mRNA vaccine for any protein whose structural sequence (amino acid composition) is known.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

In theory you could develop an mRNA vaccine for any protein whose structural sequence (amino acid composition) is known.

hasn't the issue been that, prior to the COVID vaccines, they were unable to find a delivery vehicle that would hold up and deliver the package to the intended target? and they found that in the spike protein for these vaccines

 

[Terminalxylem]

Is there an antibody test that's not a blood draw? Didn't think they'd do those kinds of test at a chain drugstore.

There's a home fingerstick test, but it has to be mailed to a lab to process.

 

[Terminalxylem]

hasn't the issue been that, prior to the COVID vaccines, they were unable to find a delivery vehicle that would hold up and deliver the package to the intended target? and they found that in the spike protein for these vaccines

They needed a way to deliver mRNA, which encodes proteins. Once the mRNA makes it into cells, proteins are translated. While there may be a size limit for the amount of deliverable mRNA, there's nothing special about spike versus other viral structural proteins, SARS-CoV-2 or otherwise.

 

[[icon]]

Not exactly. IgG and IgM are different classes of immunoglobulins (antibodies), produced at different times in response to a foreign antigen (non-self proteins). That antigen can be derived from infection or vaccination.

IgM are the earliest antibodies seen in serum, while IgG develop later, and last longer. Just knowing IgG versus IgM doesn't automatically tell you why the antibodies are present. 

That distinction is made based on the antibody's target: anti-spike versus anti-something else, usually nucleocapsid. The former is seen following infection or vaccination, while the latter can only develop in natural immunity (vaccines don't include nucleocapsid). Both antibodies can be IgG and/or IgM.

There are other immunoglobulin types as well (IgA, D and E), but measuring them is less useful.

That's awesome. Thank you for explaining!

I was sharing how they push it but it would make sense to dumb it down for non HCW's. 

 

[chet]

Great. Publish your results in a peer-reviewed journal, and have them duplicated in multicenter prospective clinical trials.

We just published another peer reviewed paper on long COVID.  To be clear, I am not an author but I am on the board of the company behind this research.

PR

Persistence of SARS CoV-2 S1 Protein in CD16+ Monocytes in Post-Acute Sequelae of COVID-19 (PASC) up to 15 Months Post-Infection

 

[Anarchy99]

According to this article, people that are unvaccinated are 17 times more likely to be hospitalized and 20 times more likely to die than people that are fully vaccinated.