Ran a 10k in June (4 Viewers)

[Nigel]

I was selected to be a Patient Partner with a 12 yr old boy with cancer getting treatment at MGH. Went in to meet and spend time with yesterday, brought my 12 yr old son along. Great kid, we'll visit with him every couple of weeks going forward. There's a dinner the night before the Marathon where we present our partners with medals, then there's an event on the day of the marathon at mile 20 on the front lawn of the head doc's house on Comm Ave where runners families and the sick kids and there families hang out and wait for their runners to come by. Needless to say, great motivation.

Quick story from our meeting...the boy's mom was there, single mother of three from the Dominican who works in a factory. Nurse came in to tell her that next week they need to be at the hospital by 10am instead of 3pm as originally planned. She became visibly upset as she realized it meant taking a full day off next Tuesday instead of getting 6 hours on the clock before the appointment as she'd hoped. As if she doesn't have enough to worry about.

 

[FUBAR]

four day weekend this weekend

2 day work week next

then another four day weekend

BUT - the only reason I have a 4 day next weekend is a colonoscopy Thursday.

Yea we're gonna need a CR (colonoscopy report) afterwards. Might be the highlight of 2015 so far. Unlike a typical report, you need to focus more on the day before prep than the actual event itself.

But it doesn't seem to be as big a deal now. I've had two, and for the second (a few years ago), I just had to add some stuff to, and drink a ton of, Gatorade. It drained the system nicely, but it wasn't the awfulness that I'd remembered ...certainly easier to just be drinking Gatorade.

Hey hey hey, quit trying to soften the blow here! I want his HR spiked at 198 running intervals from the kitchen to the bathroom!

The day before - no food and the drink they give seems like will be the worst part. Gatorade would be smart. I have a lot of PowerBar recovery drink too (with protein) that should work.

Or not, not supposed to have dairy on non dairy creamer, the recovery drink has whey protein from milk.

 

[beer 30]

four day weekend this weekend

2 day work week next

then another four day weekend

BUT - the only reason I have a 4 day next weekend is a colonoscopy Thursday.

Yea we're gonna need a CR (colonoscopy report) afterwards. Might be the highlight of 2015 so far. Unlike a typical report, you need to focus more on the day before prep than the actual event itself.

But it doesn't seem to be as big a deal now. I've had two, and for the second (a few years ago), I just had to add some stuff to, and drink a ton of, Gatorade. It drained the system nicely, but it wasn't the awfulness that I'd remembered ...certainly easier to just be drinking Gatorade.

Hey hey hey, quit trying to soften the blow here! I want his HR spiked at 198 running intervals from the kitchen to the bathroom!

The day before - no food and the drink they give seems like will be the worst part.Gatorade would be smart. I have a lot of PowerBar recovery drink too (with protein) that should work

.Or not, not supposed to have dairy on non dairy creamer, the recovery drink has whey protein from milk.

Pooping in technicolor for bonus points

 

[Hang 10]

Speaking of heart rate, mine hit 219 today AFTER an 8 mile run. Yeah my SVT has really be going nuts lately. 3 out of the last 5 days I've had heart palpitations end my workouts. Saturday was very concerning as it was the first time it had ever happened during a long run. 15 miles into a 3 hour run and my heart rate spikes and I can't recover. I tried to keep going but around mile 17.5 I give up and call my wife to come pick me up. Thinking I'm going to bail on the marathon next month. I decided to schedule an appointment with my cardiologist to get a catheter ablation. Hopefully it will fix this garbage. :weary:

Woah. GL with this one, and good decision to get it checked out.

This. Glad you're being smart about it, but I know its gotta be weighing on you after all the work you've put in. Kudos for being smart about it.

Yeah, it's definitely disappointing but part of me is glad that it's been so bad lately that it's become a no brainer decision. I mean, I considered getting the ablation done months ago but now there's no question that it has to be done. Now I just pray that it works.

 

[koby925]

Good luck H10. Agree with others the heart is nothing to mess with.

 

[FUBAR]

Oof

Following Higdon's half program, today was 90 minutes 3/1, so did 70 minutes in the 140s, 25 in the 160s, 5 cool down. Wasn't too bad but the fast part was a struggle to average 7:40.

then did 2:30 static squat, 1 minute wall sit - that hurt.

 

[ChiefD]

Had a 5 mile pace run today. I'm getting worse apparently. Ugh. 170HR, 9:44 pace.

2 weeks ago ran 3.65 pace run. 169HR. 9:11 pace.

Man, I really hate this some days.

 

[FUBAR]

Had a 5 mile pace run today. I'm getting worse apparently. Ugh. 170HR, 9:44 pace.

2 weeks ago ran 3.65 pace run. 169HR. 9:11 pace.

Man, I really hate this some days.

can't really judge your progress on one day, too many factors go into any one session. But you went almost 50% longer, looks fine to me.

Eta: thought you were focusing on MAF training right now?

 

[ChiefD]

Had a 5 mile pace run today. I'm getting worse apparently. Ugh. 170HR, 9:44 pace.

2 weeks ago ran 3.65 pace run. 169HR. 9:11 pace.

Man, I really hate this some days.

can't really judge your progress on one day, too many factors go into any one session.But you went almost 50% longer, looks fine to me.

Eta: thought you were focusing on MAF training right now?

I've been following Higdon's half plan also, but running all of my easy runs or long runs at the lower heart rate. I just needed to do something today to mix it up.

 

[FUBAR]

Had a 5 mile pace run today. I'm getting worse apparently. Ugh. 170HR, 9:44 pace.

2 weeks ago ran 3.65 pace run. 169HR. 9:11 pace.

Man, I really hate this some days.

can't really judge your progress on one day, too many factors go into any one session.But you went almost 50% longer, looks fine to me.

Eta: thought you were focusing on MAF training right now?

I've been following Higdon's half plan also, but running all of my easy runs or long runs at the lower heart rate. I just needed to do something today to mix it up.

That's cool, I just misremembered. Keep in mind that unless you really focus on the low heart rate training, gains won't come as quick there.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Had a 5 mile pace run today. I'm getting worse apparently. Ugh. 170HR, 9:44 pace.

2 weeks ago ran 3.65 pace run. 169HR. 9:11 pace.

Man, I really hate this some days.

That's enough of a difference that there has to be some reason for it. Besides the HR, how much different did you feel (breathing and perceived effort)? Did you run the hills differently? Weather? Less sleep? More stress? Freaking yourself out over checking your heart rate and pace every 5 seconds?

 

[ChiefD]

Had a 5 mile pace run today. I'm getting worse apparently. Ugh. 170HR, 9:44 pace.

2 weeks ago ran 3.65 pace run. 169HR. 9:11 pace.

Man, I really hate this some days.

That's enough of a difference that there has to be some reason for it. Besides the HR, how much different did you feel (breathing and perceived effort)? Did you run the hills differently? Weather? Less sleep? More stress? Freaking yourself out over checking your heart rate and pace every 5 seconds?

None of the above. Ran a similar type route, mix of downhills and uphills, felt about the same as always, weather was normal as previous runs. The only real thing I can think is I've had some sinus issues this week, but not enough to impact my running (I don't think).

 

[beer 30]

Had a 5 mile pace run today. I'm getting worse apparently. Ugh. 170HR, 9:44 pace.

2 weeks ago ran 3.65 pace run. 169HR. 9:11 pace.

Man, I really hate this some days.

That's enough of a difference that there has to be some reason for it. Besides the HR, how much different did you feel (breathing and perceived effort)? Did you run the hills differently? Weather? Less sleep? More stress? Freaking yourself out over checking your heart rate and pace every 5 seconds?

None of the above. Ran a similar type route, mix of downhills and uphills, felt about the same as always, weather was normal as previous runs. The only real thing I can think is I've had some sinus issues this week, but not enough to impact my running (I don't think).

Write it off to a bad/goofy run, if the trend persists then we'll address it and get you the help you need

I had a similar experience today, went out for 8 for what I was hoping to be an easy MAF run but never could get the HR under control. Shoot up into the high 140's so I'd walk 20 feet and it would drop into the low 130's. Start up again and after about a mile it's edging back up again. Finally said #### it and sprinted the last mile just because.

 

[tri-man 47]

On many runs, I don't start my timing (and HR monitoring) until after the first mile ...sometimes the data (or my HR) is just strange, and it can throw off the averages.

 

[beer 30]

On many runs, I don't start my timing (and HR monitoring) until after the first mile ...sometimes the data (or my HR) is just strange, and it can throw off the averages.

I really need to do something like this. First mile is always FUBAR so I never really get a true average HR on my runs.

 

[FUBAR]

On many runs, I don't start my timing (and HR monitoring) until after the first mile ...sometimes the data (or my HR) is just strange, and it can throw off the averages.

I really need to do something like this. First mile is always FUBAR so I never really get a true average HR on my runs.

 

[Sand]

GL Hang10, we're pulling for you.

For you swimming nuts.

http://swimswam.com/race-video-watch-katie-ledecky-swim-mind-boggling-426-500-free/

She laps the freaking field.

She swims like a girl.

I'm a pretty decent swimmer and there is a 0% chance I could out sprint her to the first wall in this race.

Good grief - astonishing speed.

 

[ChiefD]

12 degrees right now. Going running. It's official - I am insane.

See you in 2 hours.

 

[FUBAR]

GL Hang10, we're pulling for you.

For you swimming nuts.

http://swimswam.com/race-video-watch-katie-ledecky-swim-mind-boggling-426-500-free/

She laps the freaking field.

She swims like a girl.

I'm a pretty decent swimmer and there is a 0% chance I could out sprint her to the first wall in this race.

Good grief - astonishing speed.

With fins, my first 50 vs her middle 50.

I'd still lose.

 

[ChiefD]

When I left the house, my water bottle was water.

When I got home, it was 50% ice.

 

[Juxtatarot]

On many runs, I don't start my timing (and HR monitoring) until after the first mile ...sometimes the data (or my HR) is just strange, and it can throw off the averages.

I really need to do something like this. First mile is always FUBAR so I never really get a true average HR on my runs.

Gentlemen, move out of the Dark Ages and ditch the chest straps!

 

[Juxtatarot]

Jux's 5K Training Week 7

Monday: Off

Tuesday: 7.84 miles with 12 strides. Outside. Overall averages 7:09 pace/135 HR which includes the strides.

Wednesday: 5.37 with almost 3 1-mile repeats. Outside. For the repeats, 5:40/max HR 163 (I think this is my 3rd fastest mile ever), 5:53/166, I started a 3rd but developed a side stitch and turned into a 20 mph+ wind gust and shut it down. Last one .73 miles, 5:45 mile pace, 167 max HR.

Thursday: Long run 11.75 miles. Treadmill. Average pace in the 7:30s.

Friday: 8.3 miles with 4 1-mile repeats. Treadmill. First 3 at 6:00, last one at 5:56. Max HR 162. Half mile rest intervals which was too long. These didn't feel bad. I probably should run them faster but I've never done 4 before so I didn't want to push it.

Saturday: 5.4 easy. Treadmill. 8:20 pace.

Sunday: 7 miles with 4 tempo. Treadmill. Tempo miles at 6:18 pace. Max HR 161. I'm super excited about this run. That's my 5-mile/10K PR pace and this didn't feel that hard. Mid-run I considered bumping up the speed or adding another mile but 4 miles at this pace was my plan going in and I decided to stick with it -- I have plenty of time to train and I don't want to push things and injure myself.

Overall, 45.66 miles for the week.

 

[ChiefD]

Week 4 in the books:

Mon: Off

Tues: 5.04 Mile Run. 143 HR. 11:56 pace.

Wednesday. 4.23 Mile Run. 140 HR. 11:50 pace.

Thursday: 5.29 Mile Run. 140 HR. 12:06 pace.

Friday: Off

Saturday: 5.5 Mile Pace Run. 170 HR. 9:44 Pace.

Sunday: Long run 8.63 Miles. 149 HR. 12:07 Pace. Had a really hard time controlling heart rate here. Was all over the place. Could be the weather. 12 degrees and windy.

Total for the week 28.69. Didn't do really anything but slower runs this week. Still fighting the lingering effects of a sinus infection. Very frustrating week to be honest. Feel like I'm actually going backwards in terms of heart rate.

 

[SteveC702]

Better late than never I suppose. Enjoy.

Houston Marathon Training Cycle Summary -

This training cycle was similar to my last (Air Force Marathon) where I spent the first 8-10 weeks of the cycle focusing on getting into the best half-marathon shape I can and then transitioning into marathon specific workouts. The difference was I wasn't as fried from the first microcycle and also had a slightly longer marathon specific microcycle (by 2-3 weeks) this time. Along with much better race day conditions, I was able to translate all this into a PR of about 5 and a half minutes.

Below I will summarize my training by noting the total mileage for the week and describing the key workouts I did that week:

A few things to keep in mind about my training:
1. Unless otherwise noted, these workouts are done either in Colorado Springs (elevation about 6200-6300 feet) or races in Denver (5200-5400 feet).
2. I do a lot of my workouts at Monument Valley Park (MVP) on a dirt loop that's about 0.97 miles. Since it's about 10 seconds short of a full mile, it's just about enough to offset the altitude handicap and I refer to these as "sea level equivalent" miles.
3. In general Q1 is done on Tuesday or Wednesday of the week, but in weeks where I think number of days between workouts is important. (such as how many days before a race I did a tuneup) I'll note the days of the week that the workout was done.

Things I did this cycle that I thought worked well for me:
1. During the marathon specific portion of the cycle - I introduced a few 20-23 mile runs where I inserted a 5-10 mile MP segment late in the run. This was by design to teach myself to run hard when I have been on my feet for 1.5-2 hours.
2. I did a few midweek MP (or long tempo) workouts that really taught my body what marathon pace effort felt like. It's a little hard to describe, but towards the end of these workouts I felt much more in tune with that specific level of effort than I have in training before. I would like to believe that it also made my body more efficient at that effort level / pace, which allowed me to get closer to that "red line" feeling during my last marathon than I have been able to in any prior marathons.
3. While I didn't adopt the latest Jack Daniels Running Formula schedule where he had his runners do a long/hard workout every 4-5 days instead of the traditional 2-workouts-a-week schedule, I took the concept of recovery to heart this time around and didn't try to force workouts until I felt like I was sufficiently recovered to at least be able to complete 75-80% of the workout. Note: this may sound contradictory to the concept of "cumulative fatigue" that those who know me may have heard me preach about in the past, but I said I felt "sufficiently" recovered, not fully recovered before I try to tackle the next workout. This worked late in the training cycle (i.e. week 15) where I would cut out two medium effort workouts and try to nail one solid workout instead.

Things I thought I could work on more:
1. The first half of the cycle was actually somewhat dedicated to breaking 67:00 in the half-marathon so I can qualify for the USA Half-marathon championships. While I felt like I was in shape to do so going into Rock n' Roll Las Vegas, a combination of various factors derailed me that day. (mainly a ill-timed cold and not fueling properly for a night time race which led to my body rebelling about halfway through the race). Regardless, when I run another marathon I would like to have a dedicated 12-15 week cycle where I am doing long runs and marathon paced workouts every 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 weeks.
2. One of my friends pointed out in one of his recent blogs that he felt like he should have done more long runs / workouts at 95% of marathon pace to stimulate utilizing fat as a fuel. I think this is a good point and something I probably could have done more of as well. Again, if I had a longer marathon-specific microcycle within my training period I think I could have fit in some of these runs.


Houston Marathon Training:

Week 1: 12 miles. (Took first 6 days off, and then ran 12 easy on Sunday)

Week 2: 63 miles
Q1: Midweek I ran 11 miles easy, with a 2-mile pickup in 5:34 and 5:22. (elevation about 2000 ft)
Q2: On Sunday my wife forced/talked me into running a half-marathon in South Dakota - I ran hard enough to break the old course record, which was a bit harder than expected since the lead bike led us the wrong way in the first mile and I lost about 30 seconds, and I somehow gained 12-13 lbs in the last 2 weeks since my marathon. 13.2 miles in 74:27.

Week 3: 103 miles
Q1: Midweek - Ran on the "sea level equivalent miles" loop at MVP. Did 3-3-2 at 5:30, 5:30, 5:32. (it was actually supposed to be 3x3 but I bailed a mile early)
Q2: Raced the Tiger Classic 5K - 17:11. Not excited about the time, but it was close to a minute faster than the year before.

Week 4: 102 miles
Q1: Midweek - 3x2 miles - 5:41, 5:31, 5:30 pace with 3 min rest between intervals.
Q2: Denver Rock n' Roll Half Marathon - 9th / 72:45. Pretty pleased with this since I raced a 5K last weekend at this pace and this was a moderately conservative effort and equivalent to about 69:45-70:00 at sea level.

Week 5: 101 miles
Q1: Midweek - (bombed workout). Wanted to do 3x2 @ MVP on the "sea level equivalent" loop and bailed after doing the first one @ 5:22 and one mile of the second one at 5:22. Jogged for 4 minutes and then did a fartlek of 6x(2min on, 2min off). The 2min on paces were 5:46, 5:44, 5:38, 5:35, 5:27, 5:27. (Total workout = 2@5:22 (sea level equivalent), 1@5:22 (sea level equivalent), 6x(2min on, 2min off))

Week 6: 78 miles
Q1: (Tuesday) - 3 loops at MVP on the sea level equivalent loop (5:12, 5:13, 5:11)
Q2: (Saturday) - Indianapolis Monumental Half-Marathon - 68:49

Week 7: 82 miles
Q1: (Wednesday) - 3x2miles with 2min rest @ 5:46, 5:12, 5:06. Paces were supposed to be 5:40, 5:30, 5:20, but I felt good when I picked it up on the 2nd interval and just went with it.

Q2: (Sunday) - 5K race in 16:02 in Denver

Week 8: 80 miles
Q1: (Wednesday) - 3 miles tuneup @ 5:14 (5:17, 5:15, 5:10)
Q2: (Sunday) - Rock n' Roll Las Vegas Half Marathon - Crashed and burned after 10K. 69:35/9th.
_______________________________________

Marathon Specific Cycle Begins
______________________________________

Week 9: 78 miles - Took 2 days off after the HM, felt this was more needed mentally than physically.
Q1: (Sunday) - Finally felt up to running hard again. Did 18 miles with 10 @ MP (5:43).

Week 10: 110 miles
Q1: (Thursday) - Went to Las Vegas for Thanksgiving with Maureen and our friends Jason/Hillary. We hopped into a 12K Turkey Trot near Hoover Dam. I ran this at tempo effort (7.4 miles @ 5:25-5:30).

Week 11: 120 miles
Q1: I was still feeling run down for some reason so I was just going to do a week of easy miles and then run the HM this weekend as a workout. But I felt good enough by midweek to throw in a 2mile pickup @ 5:21 pace.

Q2: Tucson Half-Marathon - 68:04/3rd. This was an intended MP workout at 5:25-5:30/mi pace that quickly got out of hand when faster runners showed up and I got dragged out way faster than I intended. By halfway, with an outside shot at a PR I decided to just give it everything I had.

Week 12: 150 miles
Q1: (Failed tempo workout of 3x3mi). Got in 3-1.5-0.5 @ 5:35 pace.
Q2: 23 mile long run with a 5 mile "push"/pickup from miles 17-22 @ 5:44 pace.

Week 13: 140 miles
Q1: 10 mile MP run @ 5:40 pace.
Q2: 23 mile long run with a 8 mile "push"/pickup from miles 13-21 @ 5:37 pace.

Week 14: 140 miles
Q1: 4x3miles with 4 min rest between intervals. Paces were 5:34, 5:30, 5:28, 5:26
Q2: 20 mile long run with 12 miles @ MP (5:36.9)


Week 15: 121 miles (felt a bit tired this week so I took a few extra days before the next workout)
Q1: (Friday) - 6 miles tempo @ 5:16 average. Huge confidence booster since I ran the same workout at about the same effort 2 weeks out from Houston last year. (where I ran 68:12 for the half) and I was 8-9 seconds/mi faster this time.

Week 16: 103 miles
Q1: (Tuesday) - Planned to do 10 @ MP but got "greedy" halfway through and pushed it a bit and had to bail at 6.5. (6.5 miles @ 5:35)
Q2: (Saturday) - 5 mile MP/tempo @ 5:31 average (last mile in 5:17). Goal was to run MP for 4 miles and then pick it up the last mile.

Week 17: 81 miles
Q1: (Tuesday) - "Dress rehearsal" run. 3 miles @ MP (5:37, 5:35, 5:32) + 1 @ tempo (5:11). Felt good and ready to roll.

Q2: (Sunday) - Houston Marathon in 2:22:43. PR by 5:32.

 

[pbm107]

Week 4 in the books:

Mon: Off

Tues: 5.04 Mile Run. 143 HR. 11:56 pace.

Wednesday. 4.23 Mile Run. 140 HR. 11:50 pace.

Thursday: 5.29 Mile Run. 140 HR. 12:06 pace.

Friday: Off

Saturday: 5.5 Mile Pace Run. 170 HR. 9:44 Pace.

Sunday: Long run 8.63 Miles. 149 HR. 12:07 Pace. Had a really hard time controlling heart rate here. Was all over the place. Could be the weather. 12 degrees and windy.

Total for the week 28.69. Didn't do really anything but slower runs this week. Still fighting the lingering effects of a sinus infection. Very frustrating week to be honest. Feel like I'm actually going backwards in terms of heart rate.

Chief you have mentioned quite a bit that you are getting frustrated with pace vs HR and in my opinion there appears to be a disconnect between being a 1:49 half marathoner and your HR at your current training paces. It looks like you are running most of your miles around 12:00, and the McMillan running calculator has a 1:49 half marathoner running a 10:31 as the slowest pace for a recovery jog.

How would you rate your current fitness compared to when you ran the 1:49? If you lost a ton of fitness that might explain the disconnect.

What kind of HR monitor do you have? Is it a chest strap, are you wetting the strap before you run? I don't have a chest strap HR monitor anymore, but I remember having a tough time with its accuracy during the winter. Perhaps and inaccurate/broken HR monitor can explain the disconnect. You might find this link to be helpful.

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/04/troubleshooting-your-heart-rate.html

You have been given a lot of good advice about training and that advice should work well for most people since most adults have a max HR of 200 or lower. Perhaps your max is higher than 200 and it would be good if you ran a 5k to find out you your max HR. It is unlikely your max HR is that high, but it is possible.

This is coming from a HR data geek, if I were you (assuming you are at 1:49 Half Marathon fitness) I would be running the majority of my miles between 9:30-10:00. If you can run easily at that pace and have the ability to hold a conversation you are doing it right.

 

[pbm107]

Damn Jux you really like to run fast and you are getting faster. When I look at your training paces I feel like a slacker. There are all different approaches to training, and I tend to gravitate towards running most of my miles easy. Have you signed up for a race yet?


Steve, thank you for posting your training cycle summary. It is really cool to see the amount of work an elite runner needs to put in to be elite.

 

[Ned]

Damn Jux you really like to run fast and you are getting faster. When I look at your training paces I feel like a slacker. There are all different approaches to training, and I tend to gravitate towards running most of my miles easy. Have you signed up for a race yet?Steve, thank you for posting your training cycle summary. It is really cool to see the amount of work an elite runner needs to put in to be elite.

Juxt - that's a ton of workouts this week. Wow. Steve - 150mi in one week???

 

[SteveC702]

Damn Jux you really like to run fast and you are getting faster. When I look at your training paces I feel like a slacker. There are all different approaches to training, and I tend to gravitate towards running most of my miles easy. Have you signed up for a race yet?

Steve, thank you for posting your training cycle summary. It is really cool to see the amount of work an elite runner needs to put in to be elite.

Well, I figure I received the same level of help from reading other subelite/elite blogs so the least I could do is give back the same way. It's easy to look back at the latest cycle of a runner's training and forget the fact that it's actually a culmination of years of training and building up to that period. A few years ago when I was getting back into running (and having never run much more than 70-80 mpw in college) I started out at about 50-60 mpw. At one point last year I posted a sample training cycle from 2009 (in response to Hang 10's question on training for a HM on just one tempo a week) where I averaged 50-60 mpw for 16 weeks, and it's really just a matter of adding another 5-10 % of total volume from one training cycle to the next and staying healthy for a few years. (the staying healthy part is easier said than done, and staying consistent + being able to devote more training too, I am just lucky than my wife and I don't want to have kids so I have a more flexible schedule than most people my age)

My annual mileage total for the last few years:

2009 - 2193

2010 - 2722

2011 - 3181

2012 - 3759

2013 - 2624 (injured from March-July)

2014 - 4561

 

[SteveC702]

Damn Jux you really like to run fast and you are getting faster. When I look at your training paces I feel like a slacker. There are all different approaches to training, and I tend to gravitate towards running most of my miles easy. Have you signed up for a race yet?Steve, thank you for posting your training cycle summary. It is really cool to see the amount of work an elite runner needs to put in to be elite.

Juxt - that's a ton of workouts this week. Wow.Steve - 150mi in one week???

That 150 mile week was the by-product of my training philosophy of "have a general plan, but train by feel". My rough plan for December was to build up to 135-140 while being fresh enough to handle a workout every 3-4 days. What happened that week was on Friday I had agreed to doing my afternoon run with my wife and another friend, and my friend was late getting off of work and my wife didn't want to wait so I ran with most of them and got in 27 miles for that day... then I was at 145 after my long run and a few hours later a thought popped into my head "I don't feel all that sore/bad, I wonder if I should go for a shakeout so I can say I did 150 at least once...". That said, I think if I had the least bit of concern about injuries I definitely wouldn't have done it.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Damn Jux you really like to run fast and you are getting faster. When I look at your training paces I feel like a slacker. There are all different approaches to training, and I tend to gravitate towards running most of my miles easy. Have you signed up for a race yet?.

First one March 14.

 

[ChiefD]

Week 4 in the books:

Mon: Off

Tues: 5.04 Mile Run. 143 HR. 11:56 pace.

Wednesday. 4.23 Mile Run. 140 HR. 11:50 pace.

Thursday: 5.29 Mile Run. 140 HR. 12:06 pace.

Friday: Off

Saturday: 5.5 Mile Pace Run. 170 HR. 9:44 Pace.

Sunday: Long run 8.63 Miles. 149 HR. 12:07 Pace. Had a really hard time controlling heart rate here. Was all over the place. Could be the weather. 12 degrees and windy.

Total for the week 28.69. Didn't do really anything but slower runs this week. Still fighting the lingering effects of a sinus infection. Very frustrating week to be honest. Feel like I'm actually going backwards in terms of heart rate.

Chief you have mentioned quite a bit that you are getting frustrated with pace vs HR and in my opinion there appears to be a disconnect between being a 1:49 half marathoner and your HR at your current training paces. It looks like you are running most of your miles around 12:00, and the McMillan running calculator has a 1:49 half marathoner running a 10:31 as the slowest pace for a recovery jog. This is the frustration. I expected to take a step back when I started HR training, but I didn't expect to be running 12:00 miles on the slow run days.

How would you rate your current fitness compared to when you ran the 1:49? If you lost a ton of fitness that might explain the disconnect. I would say I lost a little fitness over the winter, but I wouldn't have expected this much of a drop. I thought I was in decent shape, and 4 weeks into my spring half training I expect to me making progress, not seemingly regressing.

What kind of HR monitor do you have? Is it a chest strap, are you wetting the strap before you run? I don't have a chest strap HR monitor anymore, but I remember having a tough time with its accuracy during the winter. Perhaps and inaccurate/broken HR monitor can explain the disconnect. You might find this link to be helpful. I just bought the TomTom watch with the HR monitor on the wrist, so I feel good that the data is accurate.

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/04/troubleshooting-your-heart-rate.html

You have been given a lot of good advice about training and that advice should work well for most people since most adults have a max HR of 200 or lower. Perhaps your max is higher than 200 and it would be good if you ran a 5k to find out you your max HR. It is unlikely your max HR is that high, but it is possible. I do need to probably run a 5k to find out my max heart rate. Unofficially I tried to hit a max heart rate last year by going balls out (lying on the floor about ready to puke when I got home), and I hit 190.

This is coming from a HR data geek, if I were you (assuming you are at 1:49 Half Marathon fitness) I would be running the majority of my miles between 9:30-10:00. If you can run easily at that pace and have the ability to hold a conversation you are doing it right. Almost all of training for the 5 halves I have run have pretty much been in this pace area. Except when I did speed work. Today, I am probably not at 1:49 HM fitness. Especially since the last 4 weeks have been extremely slow miles.

The frustration is I have run pretty regularly over the last 2 years, and I never expected to take this big of a step back. I certainly understand that I would running slower, but at worst I figured I would be running 10:30-11:00 pace miles with my lower heart rate, and progressing over time. 4 weeks is a small sample size I know.

The reality is: all of the training miles I did over the last 2 years really did squat for my overall distance, since it appears all those miles were in no-mans land. Just didn't expect all that work to be essentially worthless. This is what I'm struggling with right now.

And if this is how it's going to have to be to get better, clearly I'm not running anywhere near a 1:49 HM (which is ok, if I'm within reason of that number), and the full marathon is definitely out this fall.

 

[SteveC702]

Week 4 in the books:

Mon: Off

Tues: 5.04 Mile Run. 143 HR. 11:56 pace.

Wednesday. 4.23 Mile Run. 140 HR. 11:50 pace.

Thursday: 5.29 Mile Run. 140 HR. 12:06 pace.

Friday: Off

Saturday: 5.5 Mile Pace Run. 170 HR. 9:44 Pace.

Sunday: Long run 8.63 Miles. 149 HR. 12:07 Pace. Had a really hard time controlling heart rate here. Was all over the place. Could be the weather. 12 degrees and windy.

Total for the week 28.69. Didn't do really anything but slower runs this week. Still fighting the lingering effects of a sinus infection. Very frustrating week to be honest. Feel like I'm actually going backwards in terms of heart rate.

Chief you have mentioned quite a bit that you are getting frustrated with pace vs HR and in my opinion there appears to be a disconnect between being a 1:49 half marathoner and your HR at your current training paces. It looks like you are running most of your miles around 12:00, and the McMillan running calculator has a 1:49 half marathoner running a 10:31 as the slowest pace for a recovery jog. This is the frustration. I expected to take a step back when I started HR training, but I didn't expect to be running 12:00 miles on the slow run days.

How would you rate your current fitness compared to when you ran the 1:49? If you lost a ton of fitness that might explain the disconnect. I would say I lost a little fitness over the winter, but I wouldn't have expected this much of a drop. I thought I was in decent shape, and 4 weeks into my spring half training I expect to me making progress, not seemingly regressing.

What kind of HR monitor do you have? Is it a chest strap, are you wetting the strap before you run? I don't have a chest strap HR monitor anymore, but I remember having a tough time with its accuracy during the winter. Perhaps and inaccurate/broken HR monitor can explain the disconnect. You might find this link to be helpful. I just bought the TomTom watch with the HR monitor on the wrist, so I feel good that the data is accurate.

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/04/troubleshooting-your-heart-rate.html

You have been given a lot of good advice about training and that advice should work well for most people since most adults have a max HR of 200 or lower. Perhaps your max is higher than 200 and it would be good if you ran a 5k to find out you your max HR. It is unlikely your max HR is that high, but it is possible. I do need to probably run a 5k to find out my max heart rate. Unofficially I tried to hit a max heart rate last year by going balls out (lying on the floor about ready to puke when I got home), and I hit 190.

This is coming from a HR data geek, if I were you (assuming you are at 1:49 Half Marathon fitness) I would be running the majority of my miles between 9:30-10:00. If you can run easily at that pace and have the ability to hold a conversation you are doing it right. Almost all of training for the 5 halves I have run have pretty much been in this pace area. Except when I did speed work. Today, I am probably not at 1:49 HM fitness. Especially since the last 4 weeks have been extremely slow miles.

The frustration is I have run pretty regularly over the last 2 years, and I never expected to take this big of a step back. I certainly understand that I would running slower, but at worst I figured I would be running 10:30-11:00 pace miles with my lower heart rate, and progressing over time. 4 weeks is a small sample size I know.

The reality is: all of the training miles I did over the last 2 years really did squat for my overall distance, since it appears all those miles were in no-mans land. Just didn't expect all that work to be essentially worthless. This is what I'm struggling with right now.

And if this is how it's going to have to be to get better, clearly I'm not running anywhere near a 1:49 HM (which is ok, if I'm within reason of that number), and the full marathon is definitely out this fall.

Give it more time Chief. The beauty of a multi-month training plan is that it gets you to peak for your goal race but you may see very little gain for the first few weeks.

The other comment is that while it's been shown that there are "optimal" training zone paces, miles you run outside of those zones don't necessarily mean they were wasted, just that you're not getting the most bang for your buck physiologically. (For example, if my easy run pace is 7:00-7:30 and my MP is 5:25-5:40, anything I run in the 6:00-6:40 range may be considered "middle ground" miles that's not necessarily targetting any of my zones, but what it actually means if that I am just running too hard to get the benefits of easy runs (namely increasing injury risk and prolonging recovery from workouts) and too slow to get the benefits of MP runs, but I am still getting something out of it).

 

[pbm107]

What kind of HR monitor do you have? Is it a chest strap, are you wetting the strap before you run? I don't have a chest strap HR monitor anymore, but I remember having a tough time with its accuracy during the winter. Perhaps and inaccurate/broken HR monitor can explain the disconnect. You might find this link to be helpful. I just bought the TomTom watch with the HR monitor on the wrist, so I feel good that the data is accurate.

My guess is that HR data isn't accurate. My training partner and I both have Mio wrist heart rate monitors and it works great for me but crappy for him. He had to go back to the chest strap monitor. It is my understanding that your watch has the same type of Mio sensor.

 

[pbm107]

Mon: AM 6 easy on treadmill, PM 4 easy on treadmill

Tues: 15 on treadmill, that sucked.

Wednesday. 6 at 8:27 131

Thursday: 13 at 8:26 132

Friday: Off

Saturday: 16 with 12 at MP. I attempted to run the MP miles at 7:00 and ended up with 7:05 at 160. I was a little too aggressive in attempting to maintain pace in mostly uphill mile 4 which took a lot out of me. A large section of my normal running path was snow covered (and I avoided that section) so I had more turnarounds and hills than I would have liked.

6:58 (161), 6:58 (160), 7:00 (161), 7:05 (167), 7:15 (163), 7:09 (156), 7:02 (155), 7:09 (156), 7:17 (161), 7:10 (160), 7:05 (157), 6:58(157).

Sunday: 7 miles 8:55 avg 135.

Total 67 miles

 

[phatdawg]

Tues: 15 on treadmill, that sucked.

Dude, I did 7 miles on a treadmill today and it seemed to go on forever (mind you, that was 70 minutes of running). The treadmill for that long was a bit mind-numbing, despite listening to some decent podcasts.

 

[MAC_32]

I am officially pulling my head out of my ### tomorrow. I thought last week's race would do it, but three miles this week?

####, or get off the pot, MAC.

 

[tri-man 47]

A recovery week for me, but I slacked off more than I should have ...just 20 miles for the week. I did get in a good 8 mile run with 4 tempo miles (7:41/mile, 163 HR).

Juxt, that's just great training!

Steve - thanks for the detail. It reinforces the point of having one or two quality workouts each week. That, and a lot of miles, can lead to great races.

ETA: As those on FB saw - I formally accepted a full-time faculty appointment (in accounting) with my university for next fall. It's a very exciting career opportunity for me. From our perspective here, the change in my schedule will be incredible. It's going to open up huge chunks of time for training ..and proper rest.

 

[beer 30]

I am officially pulling my head out of my ### tomorrow. I thought last week's race would do it, but three miles this week?

####, or get off the pot, MAC.

Pics of said head being pulled out of said ### or it didn't happen.

Steve, thank you for sharing with the group. I shared some of that with my wife saying that what you typically run in a week is my month. I don't have a perspective on what it takes to rack those kind of miles, it's beyond impressive to us weekend warriors. So cool to have someone with the caliber of talent you do in this thread giving us a glimpse into what it takes. Thanks

 

[ChiefD]

What kind of HR monitor do you have? Is it a chest strap, are you wetting the strap before you run? I don't have a chest strap HR monitor anymore, but I remember having a tough time with its accuracy during the winter. Perhaps and inaccurate/broken HR monitor can explain the disconnect. You might find this link to be helpful. I just bought the TomTom watch with the HR monitor on the wrist, so I feel good that the data is accurate.

My guess is that HR data isn't accurate. My training partner and I both have Mio wrist heart rate monitors and it works great for me but crappy for him. He had to go back to the chest strap monitor. It is my understanding that your watch has the same type of Mio sensor.

Well, it's gonna have to work because I'm not spending another .10 on heart monitor equipment. I had to save for this, so if this is truly the case my heart rate training is over.

 

[parasaurolophus]

10 miles in 5 degree weather for me yesterday. It was kind of crazy how much ice I had on me when I walked in the door. Was wearing two layers. Inner layer was merino wool, didn't seem overly wet. Outer layer was polyester and had ice all over it. So I guess the first shirt wicked the moisture away and then it froze on the outer shirt. Amazing how much of a difference no wind and sunny makes in those temps. There were a couple times the sun went behind some clouds or the wind picked up and I thought I was going to turn into a popsicle. Then when the sun came back out or the wind would die back down I would be almost too warm again.

Anybody ever had issues with their ipod due to cold?

 

[parasaurolophus]

What kind of HR monitor do you have? Is it a chest strap, are you wetting the strap before you run? I don't have a chest strap HR monitor anymore, but I remember having a tough time with its accuracy during the winter. Perhaps and inaccurate/broken HR monitor can explain the disconnect. You might find this link to be helpful. I just bought the TomTom watch with the HR monitor on the wrist, so I feel good that the data is accurate.

My guess is that HR data isn't accurate. My training partner and I both have Mio wrist heart rate monitors and it works great for me but crappy for him. He had to go back to the chest strap monitor. It is my understanding that your watch has the same type of Mio sensor.

Well, it's gonna have to work because I'm not spending another .10 on heart monitor equipment. I had to save for this, so if this is truly the case my heart rate training is over.

you'll figure it out. I have the same watch. I went through the same frustrations.

 

[Ned]

When you guys are running your tempo runs, are you trying to run approximately the same route each time so you can judge the results against your previous efforts?

I know in my neighborhood, I have a lot of inclines and declines, so it's hard to work in a really long stretch where I'm on flat ground. So I know my heart rates relative to pace will change dramatically depending on if I am going flat, up, or down.

I'm worried if I run a tempo run this week and the route is different, I may see drastically different results of my HR relative to my pace if I just happen to be heading uphill when I'm running that portion of the tempo run.

The last time I ran it, I was on relatively flat ground at the point where I was hitting my higher heart rate and holding it for a few minutes before I ramped it back down for the rest of the way home. How do you guys typically do it?

Stop thinking so much! I seem to remember you stressing about the little things when you tried training by HR and spun yourself right out of it. Just do your thing and collect the data. I don't care what you do, your HR is going up when running hills. Don't get too wrapped up in nailing things perfectly. The Higdon tempo is more a fartlek run than a tempo run IIRC, so I wouldn't sweat it much. His race pace runs are more of a true tempo. I think most of us equate the tempo run to the Pfitz tempo run which is usually 8-12mi with 4-7 of those being at 15K to HM race pace. I've long said that besides racing, these tempo runs are your best gauge of fitness. I always run my tempo runs on the same route just so I can compare them over time.

Bumping this conversation.Chief - just run and collect the HR data for this entire cycle.

 

[Brony]

Anybody ever had issues with their ipod due to cold?

You talking flash memory iPod or the old hard drive based classic ipod? I had trouble with the latter and I switched to flash based one (Sansa clip) and no probs since then.

 

[tri-man 47]

When you guys are running your tempo runs, are you trying to run approximately the same route each time so you can judge the results against your previous efforts?

I know in my neighborhood, I have a lot of inclines and declines, so it's hard to work in a really long stretch where I'm on flat ground. So I know my heart rates relative to pace will change dramatically depending on if I am going flat, up, or down.

I'm worried if I run a tempo run this week and the route is different, I may see drastically different results of my HR relative to my pace if I just happen to be heading uphill when I'm running that portion of the tempo run.

The last time I ran it, I was on relatively flat ground at the point where I was hitting my higher heart rate and holding it for a few minutes before I ramped it back down for the rest of the way home. How do you guys typically do it?

Stop thinking so much! I seem to remember you stressing about the little things when you tried training by HR and spun yourself right out of it. Just do your thing and collect the data. I don't care what you do, your HR is going up when running hills. Don't get too wrapped up in nailing things perfectly.The Higdon tempo is more a fartlek run than a tempo run IIRC, so I wouldn't sweat it much. His race pace runs are more of a true tempo. I think most of us equate the tempo run to the Pfitz tempo run which is usually 8-12mi with 4-7 of those being at 15K to HM race pace. I've long said that besides racing, these tempo runs are your best gauge of fitness. I always run my tempo runs on the same route just so I can compare them over time.

Bumping this conversation.Chief - just run and collect the HR data for this entire cycle.

I agree ...stick with it Chief. See what happens over the next several weeks as you build more training and we all get some warming temps.

 

[The Commish]

I am officially pulling my head out of my ### tomorrow. I thought last week's race would do it, but three miles this week?

####, or get off the pot, MAC.

Pics of said head being pulled out of said ### or it didn't happen.

Steve, thank you for sharing with the group. I shared some of that with my wife saying that what you typically run in a week is my month. I don't have a perspective on what it takes to rack those kind of miles, it's beyond impressive to us weekend warriors. So cool to have someone with the caliber of talent you do in this thread giving us a glimpse into what it takes. Thanks

I read all these perspectives, then look at my log and realize I've run/walked in three weeks (20) miles what some of you warm up with. Today was my first big step though. It almost killed me but I survived. This week, I spend half the time running and there isn't a point where I walk longer than I run (except warm up / cool down). Something I've noticed though. I catch my breath WAY faster than I use to. I also feel like (later in the workout) I lose it faster than I was before. Not close to discouraged by any means. I'm plugging through. Today was 2.15 miles in 31 minutes.

 

[ChiefD]

I am officially pulling my head out of my ### tomorrow. I thought last week's race would do it, but three miles this week?

####, or get off the pot, MAC.

Pics of said head being pulled out of said ### or it didn't happen.

Steve, thank you for sharing with the group. I shared some of that with my wife saying that what you typically run in a week is my month. I don't have a perspective on what it takes to rack those kind of miles, it's beyond impressive to us weekend warriors. So cool to have someone with the caliber of talent you do in this thread giving us a glimpse into what it takes. Thanks

I read all these perspectives, then look at my log and realize I've run/walked in three weeks (20) miles what some of you warm up with. Today was my first big step though. It almost killed me but I survived. This week, I spend half the time running and there isn't a point where I walk longer than I run (except warm up / cool down). Something I've noticed though. I catch my breath WAY faster than I use to. I also feel like (later in the workout) I lose it faster than I was before. Not close to discouraged by any means. I'm plugging through. Today was 2.15 miles in 31 minutes.

Nice job. Keep going.

The hard part for you is over. You started. Now it's just about keeping it going, because if you are like the rest of us here, you've reached the point where if you miss a day you start to feel a little guilty, and are rarin' the go the next day.

 

[beer 30]

I am officially pulling my head out of my ### tomorrow. I thought last week's race would do it, but three miles this week?

####, or get off the pot, MAC.

Pics of said head being pulled out of said ### or it didn't happen.

Steve, thank you for sharing with the group. I shared some of that with my wife saying that what you typically run in a week is my month. I don't have a perspective on what it takes to rack those kind of miles, it's beyond impressive to us weekend warriors. So cool to have someone with the caliber of talent you do in this thread giving us a glimpse into what it takes. Thanks

I read all these perspectives, then look at my log and realize I've run/walked in three weeks (20) miles what some of you warm up with. Today was my first big step though. It almost killed me but I survived. This week, I spend half the time running and there isn't a point where I walk longer than I run (except warm up / cool down). Something I've noticed though. I catch my breath WAY faster than I use to. I also feel like (later in the workout) I lose it faster than I was before. Not close to discouraged by any means. I'm plugging through. Today was 2.15 miles in 31 minutes.

Stuff like this is as inspiring as reading about Steve's mega workouts. It's fun to watch the progress as just about all of us wanna-be's started in the same spot you are right now. That's where this thread is so valuable, there are a ton of insights from guys that started a C25k program and now are leaders in this thread. I'm not one of them but there are plenty here

When these guys tell you this will happen when you do this, it does. Why? Because they did it. It doesn't suck any less getting better but you're not doing this because it's easy. Listen to the collective knowledge base in here, better than any book you're gonna find (except maybe Advanced Marathoning of course).

 

[The Commish]

I am officially pulling my head out of my ### tomorrow. I thought last week's race would do it, but three miles this week?

####, or get off the pot, MAC.

Pics of said head being pulled out of said ### or it didn't happen.

Steve, thank you for sharing with the group. I shared some of that with my wife saying that what you typically run in a week is my month. I don't have a perspective on what it takes to rack those kind of miles, it's beyond impressive to us weekend warriors. So cool to have someone with the caliber of talent you do in this thread giving us a glimpse into what it takes. Thanks

I read all these perspectives, then look at my log and realize I've run/walked in three weeks (20) miles what some of you warm up with. Today was my first big step though. It almost killed me but I survived. This week, I spend half the time running and there isn't a point where I walk longer than I run (except warm up / cool down). Something I've noticed though. I catch my breath WAY faster than I use to. I also feel like (later in the workout) I lose it faster than I was before. Not close to discouraged by any means. I'm plugging through. Today was 2.15 miles in 31 minutes.

Stuff like this is as inspiring as reading about Steve's mega workouts. It's fun to watch the progress as just about all of us wanna-be's started in the same spot you are right now. That's where this thread is so valuable, there are a ton of insights from guys that started a C25k program and now are leaders in this thread. I'm not one of them but there are plenty here

When these guys tell you this will happen when you do this, it does. Why? Because they did it. It doesn't suck any less getting better but you're not doing this because it's easy. Listen to the collective knowledge base in here, better than any book you're gonna find (except maybe Advanced Marathoning of course).

So, to shake it up a little bit, I plan on lacing up the skates and skating my next workout after the vicious ice storm hits tonight. With me?

 

[The Commish]

I am officially pulling my head out of my ### tomorrow. I thought last week's race would do it, but three miles this week?

####, or get off the pot, MAC.

Pics of said head being pulled out of said ### or it didn't happen.

Steve, thank you for sharing with the group. I shared some of that with my wife saying that what you typically run in a week is my month. I don't have a perspective on what it takes to rack those kind of miles, it's beyond impressive to us weekend warriors. So cool to have someone with the caliber of talent you do in this thread giving us a glimpse into what it takes. Thanks

I read all these perspectives, then look at my log and realize I've run/walked in three weeks (20) miles what some of you warm up with. Today was my first big step though. It almost killed me but I survived. This week, I spend half the time running and there isn't a point where I walk longer than I run (except warm up / cool down). Something I've noticed though. I catch my breath WAY faster than I use to. I also feel like (later in the workout) I lose it faster than I was before. Not close to discouraged by any means. I'm plugging through. Today was 2.15 miles in 31 minutes.

Nice job. Keep going.

The hard part for you is over. You started. Now it's just about keeping it going, because if you are like the rest of us here, you've reached the point where if you miss a day you start to feel a little guilty, and are rarin' the go the next day.

My motivation is I'm a habitual person. It's a blessing and a curse I suppose, but if I miss a day, I doomed. I HAVE to stay on course or I veer off very quickly. I've missed just one lifting day thus far. I just couldn't help it, but I haven't missed any of my running days. I have always enjoyed "seeing how far I can go"...even when I was a kid, but at my age and condition right now, that's dangerous. The hardest part for me is pacing myself. As soon as I catch my breath, I want to go again.

 

[FUBAR]

Got a small feel for what you northerners have been dealing with. 22 degrees this morning, which granted is still better than what you've had but is 40 degrees colder than it has been.

mile intervals today, .5 w/u, 4 x 1 mile with half mile rest between.

Mile splits: 6:42, 6:36, 6:42, 6:28. Puts me at a HM pace I'm okay with for now but I'm hoping to drop another 10 seconds per mile in the next month.