Ran a 10k - Official Thread (5 Viewers)

[ChiefD]

That's a great story of perseverance Nigel. I'm proud you stuck with it and ended up with a PR to boot.

I know it's not what you wanted, but for me personally, I love the story and how you made it through. Speaks to the fighting spirit a lot of us get from this forum. 

 

[wilked]

Nigel, nice work buddy.  Whatever doesn't kill you...and all that

My one question - do you have a heart rate monitor?  I ask as the year I ran sh---y in Boston I essentially ignored what my heart rate monitor was telling me (which was to slow the hell down) and ended up in a similar spot to you

 

[Juxtatarot]

@Nigel  Way to hang in there!

I very well could be wrong and I'm certainly no doctor but I'm wondering if maybe you drank too many fluids.  I remember reading the body's digestive system can start shutting down late in a race when you're exhausted which might explain the lack of urination.  I think the two pound weight gain is a red flag.

I'm interested in reading @SFBayDuck's and others opinions on this.

 

[Nigel]

Nigel, nice work buddy.  Whatever doesn't kill you...and all that

My one question - do you have a heart rate monitor?  I ask as the year I ran sh---y in Boston I essentially ignored what my heart rate monitor was telling me (which was to slow the hell down) and ended up in a similar spot to you

I do but don't look at it while I run, only afterwards. Avg HR was 173 which is normal for me.

 

[Nigel]

@Nigel  Way to hang in there!

I very well could be wrong and I'm certainly no doctor but I'm wondering if maybe you drank too many fluids.  I remember reading the body's digestive system can start shutting down late in a race when you're exhausted which might explain the lack of urination.  I think the two pound weight gain is a red flag.

I'm interested in reading @SFBayDuck's and others opinions on this.

Too many fluids, too little salt is my guess. No doubt that killed me late. Still don't know why I felt so bad at 10.

 

[tri-man 47]

Boston Marathon Race Report

3:42:23 (8:25/mile per my watch for 26.39 miles)

HR 162 avg - stayed very steady the whole race

148 / 993 in AG (top 15%) ... 8,024 / 14,471 men (top 55%) ... 11,586 / 26,629 overall  (top 44% of finishers (over 800 dropped out)

Well, it was a great weekend and, big picture, a gratifying race result.  However, I was trained and ready for a great race and had to settle for a gutty, good run.  The day ended up being sunny and warm (60 and even 70 degree temps) with some back-half cooling winds (but they were headwinds).  As I found out early on, I just couldn't control my HR.

I once again enjoyed the whole Boston experience.  I flew in Saturday afternoon, and my friend and her husband picked me up at the airport and we went straight to dinner.  This couple just love their role as 'Team Tri-Man,' as they like to say, and doing all they can to make it a successful weekend for me.  After a big breakfast on Sunday, I took the train from Southborough into the city for the expo.  It worked out perfect to quickly get my gear bag and then transfer some post-race clothes to the gear bag in order to meet Nigel near the convention center.  Really nice of him to take my bag and drop it off on race morning.  Great to meet him!!  I then hung out at the expo for a while before meeting a former student of mine who now lives in the area.  After that visit, I relaxed on the grandstand and watched the crowds for a while, and then trained it back to the 'burbs.  Some quiet time and a simple dinner set me up for a good night's sleep.  

The beauty of the 'burbs is that I had no time constraints on race morning.  Leisurely got out of bed around 7:30, had some toast and a banana, took care of business, and finished packing things up.  It was just a 10 minute drive to get dropped off at the train station at 9:20 (and I was able to see the men's start at 10:00 a.m.).  Took one bus with just a few of us on it to the state park; went through security check and caught another bus with several of us on it to downtown Hopkinton, less than a 1/4 mile from the back of the corrals.  After watching the start and seeing the logistics of the first wave starting and second wave reloading the corrals, I did a bit of a warm-up and caught the bathroom (twice) at the gas station in town ..with basically no waiting.   I then joined the march of wave 3 to the corrals.  I was in corral 1 and was able to line up in roughly the fifth row of runners.  A friend from church happened to be in the same corral, so he found me and we chatted during the 15 minute wait before the start of our wave.  The gun sounded promptly at 10:50 a.m., and we were off!  With the favorable corral, it was quite easy to run tangents over the first several miles.

1:  7:21 ...158 HR

2:  7:31 ... 162

3:  7:33 ... 163

This was my first indication of trouble.  I was running so easy (given the general downhill), yet my HR was a good 10 ticks higher than I expected.  I knew I'd cross the 5K mat several seconds ahead of best-case goal, leading to a "what if" for the day: What if I'd had just stopped for 20 seconds to 'reset' the HR?  I had a fleeting thought on that but decided to just throttle back a bit and see if I could hold high-150s ...to no avail.

4:  7:38 ... 163

5:  7:54 ... 164

6:  7:51 ... 163

7:  7:47 ... 164

8:  8:05 ... 164

Dammit.  Really?  :sigh:  I wasn't striding well or running a good pace, yet my HR remained too high.  Did the heat really sap my legs, or was it the mid-week yard work or the walking around on Sunday?  Like Nigel had mentioned, I was starting to get that feeling of just wanting to be done for the day ...but I had a few miles to go!  I knew the ongoing splits wouldn't be very good, and I felt bad for all of you having to watch the developing suffer-fest. 

9:  8:06 ... 163

10: 8:13 ... 162

11: 8:26 ... 162

12: 8:20 ... 160

13: 8:18 ... 162

Ah, the Wellesley girls!  You can hear 'em a half-mile away.  Favorite signs this year: "Kiss me, I've taken French."  "Kiss me if you're thirsty."    And a late sign a guy had: "Kiss me.  You're running out of options."  At the end of the line were three girls with large signs (hiding tank tops and shorts) that said "kiss us and we'll drop the signs."

14: 8:14 ... 163

15: 8:27 ... 164

16: 8:28 ... 159 - Downhill before the hills; but not even running well on the downhills!

17: 8:42 ... 165 - First long hill with moderate slope; really not bad using an extended mantra

18: 8:49 ... 166 - Second hill, steeper than first; again, not too bad.  Pace loss was about as expected.

19: 8:46 ... 163

20: 8:55 ... 164 - Third hill, shortest of the three

21: 9:30 ... 165 - Fourth hill (Heartbreak Hill).  This one was tough

22: 8:58 ... 161 - Downhill

This would be the time to turn up the burners and start the push for home.  But I had essentially nothing at this point.  Over coming miles, I'd deal with some leg cramping and a lot of lightheadedness.

23: 9:20 ... 159

24: 9:21 ... 158

25: 9:12 ... 159

26: 9:48 ... 155 - A friend was here at the start of the mile, and I made the mistake of stopping for a moment, which became several moments as I tried to regain composure for the finish.

.39  7:28 ... 167

A strong finish, although after calf cramps in prior miles, now my groin muscles were cramping.  What??  I'd been drinking a lot of fluids and eating a few gels.  The darn heat.  Still, I pushed hard up Hereford and then the wonderful run down Boylston.  Another "what if," though: My condition notwithstanding, if I truly had this much left, could I have turned it on earlier?  Anyway, I tried walking things off after finishing, but I was seeing stars.  So I took a ride to the med tent and sat in a chair for 15 minutes before continuing on.  Got the gear bag, and caught a train home.  Went out that night for a big burger, a couple of beers, and a double shot of Fireball.

Weird race with that steady HR throughout ..even decreasing over the final miles as I dealt with the aches and pains.  But glad I kept moving, other than some slow water stations and that stop near the end.  But just so incredibly frustrating.  I did comfortably requalify for next year, and I'm ultimately very happy with the top 15% AG at Boston.  But I don't expect to marathon again until I approach the next AG.  Too much time commitment for such a risk/reward experience.  I'll focus on other events.  Speaking of which, we have a niece's wedding next weekend in Arkansas, and I found a local 5K in Hot Springs ...

eta: Nigel, did you go to bag-check just for my bag (since you had your group's location)?  Whoa, that's way above and beyond the call of duty, particularly given the distance and the wait.    Thanks, thanks, thanks!

 

[FUBAR]

@tri-man 47   phenomenal!  especially - 148 / 993 in AG (top 15%)   

 

[ChiefD]

Great report tri-man. Great job! 

 

[[icon]]

Very cool to read the report. Thanks for sharing. 

 

[JShare87]

I'm not trying to take anyone's shine away from Boston, but I have a quick question. What is a good meal to have the night before and morning of a long run? 

 

[tri-man 47]

I'm not trying to take anyone's shine away from Boston, but I have a quick question. What is a good meal to have the night before and morning of a long run? 

Have a rather big, carb-type of dinner two nights before and then a goods-sized breakfast the day before.  That'll be the food that fuels you.  The night before should be a comfortable meal that lets you be regular the next morning (and one that won't cause troubles during your run).  Morning of the run?  Just a bit of easy digesting food.  Don't overdo it.  Personally, I'd shy away from red meat and too much salad the night before.

 

[beer 30]

Great to read the report Nigel & Tri, sorry about the disappointing results but you both ran gut check races and finished strong. So many of the folks I was tracking had similar experiences, just one of those days the course & the conditions won out. Still incredibly impressive times given the conditions and all you were going through. Great job guys!

 

[FUBAR]

Is Boston always this much of a #####?   I mean you guys are studs but this race seems harder than the norm.   

 

[prosopis]

Thanks for sharing guys!!! Wonderful reports

 

[SFBayDuck]

Too many fluids, too little salt is my guess. No doubt that killed me late. Still don't know why I felt so bad at 10.

I think this is probably right. My semi-educated guess would be mild exercise associated hyponatremia (EAH).

"Symptoms of Hyponatremia
The early warning signs are often subtle and may be similar to dehydration and include nausea, muscle cramps, disorientation, slurred speech, and confusion. At this point, many athletes drink more water because they think they are dehydrated. Unfortunately, water alone will increase the problem of hyponatremia. At the most extreme an athlete may experience seizures, coma, or death."

These things stand out from your report:

• a small glass of chocolate milk, tall glass of water.
  
• drank a 16oz Gatorade during this time.
  
• From the start I’d been hitting all of the water stops from mile 3 on, alternating water and Gatorade. My thirst at this point was unquenchable, couldn’t get to the next stop fast enough. 
  
• My legs were cramping all over the place: hammies, quads, calves. I had a couple of very brief, like 30 seconds, severe headaches around 15 minutes apart that kind of freaked me out. 
  
• For the miles through the hills and those after I was double and triple fisting the water stops, couldn’t get enough. I skipped the one soon before I got to where I knew my family would be, knowing they’d have a cold bottle of water waiting.
  
• I grabbed two bottles of water, got wrapped in foil and got my medal. 
  
• The next thirty minutes are a blur..... I got confused somewhere along the way. I was having a lot of trouble with my legs, I was cold and I got really agitated. I ended up sitting down in some grass for a bit to try to get myself together. I remember a lady coming over and tapping me on the shoulder and asking if I was okay and I snapped out of it and realized I was ####### crying!
  
•  I asked them for a couple of chocolate milks, which they brought to me and I pounded quickly. I laid down on a table to get stretched but I was shivering so much that they called that off and wrapped me head to toe in warm blankets, hot wet towel around my head. A doctor came in and asked me some basic questions like do I know where I am/what’s my name to make sure I wasn’t completely out of my mind, passed those tests. He also asked when the last time I urinated was and I told him mile one, but I’d taken copious amounts of fluids the entire race, two bottles of water immediately after, two chocolate milks since I got here and had zero inclination to take a piss. He told me they needed to get me pissing and brought over two 16 oz Gatorades and that I should drink them as quickly as I could manage. I stayed there a half hour all wrapped up and got the Gatorades down. I still wasn’t warming up so they came up with an awesome plan to put me in an office chair (they didn’t have a wheel chair) still wrapped up like a mummy, roll me through the gym where there were all kinds of hot chicks working out, put me on the elevator, and wheel me into the sauna downstairs in the men’s locker room. My son tagged along and thought the whole spectacle was hilarious, mocked me the entire way. Twenty minutes in the sauna did the trick, I finally felt warm and took a quick shower before we finally got out of there. I weighed myself when I got home around 6:00pm and despite having run a marathon and not eaten anything solid since 10:00am I’d gained 2 lbs! I kept drinking and the damn finally broke at 8:00pm, and I was pissing like a madman all night. I also woke up in the middle of the night and thought I’d pissed the bed but the sheets, comforter and shirt I had on were just drenched with sweat. All of that retained fluid was finding its way out.
  

Looking at the above you're getting in some sodium via Gatorade and chocolate milk which are both 5% sodium, but that looks to have been very diluted with plain water.  The medical studies at Western States and elsewhere ave shown that lack of urination and weight gain on their own are not enough to diagnose hyponatremia, but they can in fact be symptoms when found in conjunction with disorientation, cramping (Noakes argues against this as a symptom of EAH, but he seems to be an outlier), and excessive thirst.  The Gatorade the doctor brought to you at the finish was probably not really what you needed as higher sodium content drinks would be better, and true EAH can really only be effectively treated with a higher sodium content IV.

But the biggest sign to me that this was overhydration/EAH was what happened when you got home.  When not under the stress of a marathon the body returned itself to homeostasis by sweating and pissing out all that extra water you had taken in.

That's my, I was gonna say $.02 but that's gotta be worth at least $1.05.......

 

[parasaurolophus]

Finally back. Didn't want to constantly bring down the thread so I just avoided it. Spent many months battling injuries. Too many trips to the doctor, one to the emergency room, sprinkle in a walking boot, a brace, my first DNF, and lots of frustration. 

Been several straight weeks of consistent running now and I am in the clear on the pain front. Had my first 20+ mile week in I have no idea how long and came out unscathed. I am still having some weird neuropathy issues, but they dont cause pain.

Planning on running the vegas marathon in November. 

 

[SteveC702]

Finally back. Didn't want to constantly bring down the thread so I just avoided it. Spent many months battling injuries. Too many trips to the doctor, one to the emergency room, sprinkle in a walking boot, a brace, my first DNF, and lots of frustration. 

Been several straight weeks of consistent running now and I am in the clear on the pain front. Had my first 20+ mile week in I have no idea how long and came out unscathed. I am still having some weird neuropathy issues, but they dont cause pain.

Planning on running the vegas marathon in November. 

Great to see you back and hear that you are again back on track with your running. Good luck with your training.

 

[Ned]

@Nigel - I know it doesn't mean as much as it should (I can't fully grasp it myself when I've had bad races), but you should really take a step back and appreciate what the hell you just did.  We can agree this was probably the most miserable race experience you've ever had...annnnd  you still beat your marathon PR from last year where that was pretty much a dream run, right?  That should speak volumes on your current fitness levels.  I know it's hard to get past the disappointment, but I hope you can see this eventually.  You've come sooooo fricken far.  Thinking back to your afib issues and now this performance?  Badass.....

Don't be ashamed about the crying.  I think I've cried after more marathons (good and bad results) than I haven't.  It's the exhaustion. 

@tri-man 47 - Time and time again you prove what smart running can do.  Mix in some pretty bad ### toughness and you're quite the inspiration to all of us here.  I can't tell you how many times I've thought of you and your posts while I was out on runs.  Nigel was right to call you an FFA idol.

@SFBayDuck - I your knowledge dropping.  

@gruecd - GL in Warsaw this weekend!!

 

[SteveC702]

Whew, finally back home after almost 2 weeks of traveling and having insomnia so I might as well get this thing started.

2016 Hamburg Marathon Race Report-

Note: This was my first race outside of the U.S, and I knew the race had markers every kilometer instead of every mile, so I switched my watch to using kilometers as distance units and worked out the paces I need to hit. (16:28 / 5km, or about 3:17-3:18/km). So this race report will be in 5km segments.

Pre-race: Around 7:30 they had the invited runners walk over from our host hotel over to the pre-race warm-up area by the starting line. Even during this short 10 minute walk some of the other runners were commenting on how the conditions seemed a little on the breezy side. I didn't give this much thought as I was counting on having a pack to run with. At the pre-race meeting the night before the elite athlete director had mentioned that in addition to the pace groups they were providing (a 2:05:30-2:06 group for the course record attempt, a 2:10 group, a 2:13 group for some of the European countries that set that as their Olympic Standard, and a 2:15 group for the other European countries with that time as their standard), there were a handful of us from various random countries going for that 2:19:00 standard.

About 45 minutes before the race I went for a short warmup in an enclosed indoor area they had roped off for us. Things were fairly uneventful, I got a little over 10 minutes of light jogging in, hit the bathroom one last night and then it was off to the start line.

Due to it being an Olympic year, the size of the elite athlete field was about twice as large as usual, and everyone wanted to be on the left side of the start line, so I somehow found myself in about the 4th-5th row back. As the race started I was actually temporarily boxed in for the first minute or so by some slower runners that had worked their way to the front. Luckily one of the other 2:19 hopefuls was right in front of me and he was nowhere near as polite to these slower guys as I was and basically cleared a path for me to follow.

While we hit the first 1K right on schedule, the next mile or so was a moderate incline and before I knew it we had banked a few seconds in the wrong direction. At about 3k/2 miles I was still about 3-5 seconds behind the 2:19 pack, and I figured it would make more sense to run with them than by myself so I picked up the effort for the next 3-4 minutes and caught them right before 5K.

5K split - 16:38. (Average heart rate was 159 for 5K, but 164 for the last 4K of this)

The next 10K was fairly uneventful. I tucked behind this pack for most of the next half hour or so, and also led the charge up a couple of small climbs when I felt the pace lagging. Supposedly we had a tailwind for this section but I didn't feel it much.

10k split - 33:03 (Last 5k = 16:25, AHR - 159)

15k split - 49:26 (Last 5K = 16:23, AHR - 159)

Shortly before 15K there was a moderate climb and I somehow put a small gap on the rest of my group. A minute or two later we went through a tunnel and I was expecting the rest of the pack to catch back up to me, and even contemplated slowing down to let them. However, the next 1km split was a 3:21-3:22 (5:24-5:25 pace) and I could tell from the fading footsteps behind me I was pulling away, so I just went with it and ran pretty much solo for the next 10K.

20k split - 65:59 (Last 5K = 16:33, AHR - 162)

As I came through halfway in a little under 69:40 (official race split 69:39) I was feeling good. I had left behind the pack of guys I was running with about 10-15 miles earlier than planned, but I also felt that I had settled into a pretty good rhythm and was clicking off splits in the 3:15-3:20 range/km (or 5:14-5:20/mi). There were a couple of small gradual uphill sections for the next 10K or so but I basically stayed relaxed, and mentally prepared myself to notch up the effort a bit once I hit 30K since I knew I was behind pace just a little bit.

30K split - 1:39:10 (Last 5K splits = 16:33, 16:38, AHR - 165)

Once I hit the 30K mat I was hit with a small GI emergency and I pulled to the side of the course to quickly take care of. I saw my split for 30-31K on my watch (3:33) and figured that it only cost me 15s or so. I thought I had settled back into my previous effort, however, try as I might, I could not get my damn watch to read faster than 5:25-5:30 pace for the next couple of miles.

35K split - 1:56:31 (Last 5K split = 17:21, AHR - 165)

At this point I realized I wasn't going to hit the standard as I needed to be at least in the low 2:12s at 40K, which would require about 15:30-15:40 for the next 5K and continuing at that pace for another 1.4 miles or so. I started thinking about salvaging at least a 2:20x. At around 37K (23 miles) I hit a downhill stretch and tried to open up my stride a bit, only to realize how tight my right hamstring had gotten and that it was probably actually on the verge of locking up on me if I keep pressing much longer. I quickly did the math and realized that as long as I keep the last 5K/3miles at 5:50s or faster I would still be in the 2:21s.

As I backed off the pace a bit to try to safely hedge a small PR, I heard a couple of cars/bikes honking behind me and the next thing I knew the lead vehicle for the women had pulled up beside and then past me, which tells me the first woman probably wasn't that far behind. I haven't been chicked since Boston 2014 and I sure don't want to break that streak if I can help it, so I dialed it back down to about 5:30-5:35 mile pace or so and got in front of the lead vehicle again. However, each time we hit a downhill section my hamstring would again complain (and a bit louder each time) so I would have to back off the pace and then the lead vehicle would catch back up to me. We basically yo-yo'd back and forth about 2-3 times before I thought I was safe with half a mile or so to go.

As I rounded the last turn and hit the 42km (200m to go) mark. I saw I had a 2:21 in the bag but was very annoyed to see they had saved a fairly significant downhill for the homestretch. Normally this is a great thing, but not when one's hamstrings are on the verge of cramping. I didn't have much time to dwell on this as at this point the crowd roared and I sure as hell knew it wasn't for some random Asian dude. Then I looked up ahead and two of the race volunteers brought out the winner's tape. At this point I am basically putting 90% of my weight on my left leg and propelling myself forward in what I felt like was a one-legged hop for the next 50 meters (although the finish line video my friends found later didn't make me look nearly as bad as I felt). The people holding the finisher's line tape were definitely much more experienced with their jobs than the guys doing it at the Omaha marathon and raised the tape a bit so the guy right in front of me and I can run right under it before they lowered it back down for the women's winner 2 seconds later.

40K split - 2:14:09 (Last 5K split = 17:38, AHR - 164)

Finish - 2:21:52 (Last 2.2k split = 7:43, AHR - 159).

Total - 2:21:52 (5:24/mi, AHR = 162)

Quick post-race analysis: I was frustrated by the hamstring issue that popped up late in the race, although I had an idea that may be coming as I actually woke up a few hours before the race with a sudden cramping feeling in that area. I think my pre-race nutrition was off due to the traveling (and possibly drinking a lot of that gassy/sparkling water they seemed to sell everywhere in Europe). It was annoying because I got those issues right as we were hitting the downhill sections of the course and I couldn't take advantage of them as much. On the other hand, my qualifying attempt was out the window at that point so it wasn't a big deal.

Wind - I thought I was just feeling the wind a lot more the last 10 miles or so because I was getting tired, but I think both winners mentioned the wind as a factor in their post-race interviews. (And I heard a lot of comments about it from other runners, as well as saw it mentioned in numerous write-ups). I thought it was supposed to be more of a side wind, but I guess it could have switched directions a bit. Either way, it seems like the winners either thought they could have run 2-2:30 faster or DID run 2-2:30 faster at other races within the last year. I am not one to adjust my finishing times based on these types of factors, but it does reinforce my belief that I was in shape to run the time I wanted to.

Heart rate - This was interesting. I think maybe in a perfect world I should have eased into things, but the pack I wanted to run with apparently wanted to run the goal pace right off the bat despite a net elevation gain of 70-75 ft. for the first 5K, and then I had to make a small move to catch them about 2 miles in, so my HR got up to the mid-160s fairly early on, but settled into the high 150s once I caught the group. It then crept into the mid-160s again around the halfway point when I was running by myself and apparently into a combination of wind/hills. It actually dropped back down into the low-160s/high150s for the last couple of miles once my right hamstring became the limiting factor. So that was encouraging as well as I know I had least had more to give aerobically.

By the way, the crowd support for this race was probably the best I have seen for a marathon. Other than the tunnel section around mile 9 there were people cheering the whole way. There were no thick crowds like the last 4-5 miles of the Boston marathon, but I felt like I ever went through a stretch of longer than 10-20 seconds before someone else was cheering along the course. I definitely want to go back in a year or two.

 

[SFBayDuck]

Have a rather big, carb-type of dinner two nights before and then a goods-sized breakfast the day before.  That'll be the food that fuels you.  The night before should be a comfortable meal that lets you be regular the next morning (and one that won't cause troubles during your run).  Morning of the run?  Just a bit of easy digesting food.  Don't overdo it.  Personally, I'd shy away from red meat and too much salad the night before.

This.  Clean protein (salmon is my preferred choice, chicken if I can't get that) and rice.  And eat dinner an hour or two earlier than usual if it's an early race so you can be sure to get your bathroom on in the morning.

 

[igbomb]

Have a rather big, carb-type of dinner two nights before and then a goods-sized breakfast the day before.  That'll be the food that fuels you.  The night before should be a comfortable meal that lets you be regular the next morning (and one that won't cause troubles during your run).  Morning of the run?  Just a bit of easy digesting food.  Don't overdo it.  Personally, I'd shy away from red meat and too much salad the night before.

This advice would be a good one to put in the up-front FAQ. I know I'm going to want to come back to this one.

 

[SFBayDuck]

Boston Marathon Race Report

Well, it was a great weekend and, big picture, a gratifying race result.  However, I was trained and ready for a great race and had to settle for a gutty, good run. 

Sums it up well right there.  Congrats!

 

[Ned]

@SteveC702 - I know I've said it a few times, but it's been such a treat watching you chase this dream.  That HR data is pretty amazing - the consistency really stands out to me.  I shake my head at times when I see your MP is only 10 or so seconds off of my mile PR time.  

 

[ChiefD]

@SteveC702 - I know I've said it a few times, but it's been such a treat watching you chase this dream.  That HR data is pretty amazing - the consistency really stands out to me.  I shake my head at times when I see your MP is only 10 or so seconds off of my mile PR time.  

This.

Great report SteveC. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

@SFBayDuck I'm really surprised that a doctor at the Boston Marathon  didn't consider hyponatremia.  I also don't understand why Nigel felt so thirsty.  Perhaps he was misreading what his body was trying to tell him?

 

[SFBayDuck]

@SFBayDuck I'm really surprised that a doctor at the Boston Marathon  didn't consider hyponatremia.  I also don't understand why Nigel felt so thirsty.  Perhaps he was misreading what his body was trying to tell him?

 I'm surprised too. Five years ago, maybe, but the work that Dr. Marty Hoffman and others have done, not to mention Noakes' book, should have all physicians up to speed on EAH now.  But to me the way his body just shed all that water later that night though leads me to believe he probably had a mild case of EAH.  But I'm no Doctor by any stretch (I'm not even in a Holiday Inn right now, but a Hilton) so I could be way off.

 

[ChiefD]

 I'm surprised too. Five years ago, maybe, but the work that Dr. Marty Hoffman and others have done, not to mention Noakes' book, should have all physicians up to speed on EAH now.  But to me the way his body just shed all that water later that night though leads me to believe he probably had a mild case of EAH.  But I'm no Doctor by any stretch (I'm not even in a Holiday Inn right now, but a Hilton) so I could be way off.

So here's the next question for me. If that is what Nigel had, is it because of the fluids he consumed on race day, or is a cumulative effect from overhydrating during the week?

 

[FUBAR]

@SteveC702 - I know I've said it a few times, but it's been such a treat watching you chase this dream.  That HR data is pretty amazing - the consistency really stands out to me.  I shake my head at times when I see your MP is only 10 or so seconds off of my mile PR time.  

no kidding.  except 20 seconds faster than my "recent" best mile

 

[SteveC702]

This.

Great report SteveC. 

@SteveC702 - I know I've said it a few times, but it's been such a treat watching you chase this dream.  That HR data is pretty amazing - the consistency really stands out to me.  I shake my head at times when I see your MP is only 10 or so seconds off of my mile PR time.  

Thanks guys. Although I am no expert on this, so I have to ask... is my HR supposed to fluctuate more than what it did? I thought my HR range (156-167) after the first 1KM was about the same as Tri-man's. Although I am supposed to be able to push it up a bit higher since I am a few years younger than him?

I am curious since this is the first time I raced a fully tapered marathon with a HR monitor, so while I was initially alarmed at the 160-165 reading I was getting early on, I was also confident enough to know that the effort felt right to my body and basically stopped looking at the HR data after 5-6 miles or so. I did notice in my practice runs my HR was more in the 155-160 range whereas during the race I got into the 160s pretty early on, but just assumed this is because my legs were more rested and were therefore able to push a bit harder. (that or I screwed up my taper with the traveling / time zone adjustment and my body was working harder than it should to maintain pace, I dunno).

 

[FUBAR]

What does it take to run a sub-3 hour marathon?

Interesting read.  Most of us will never match Steve's times or his training, but what do you all think about the article?

 

[SayWhat?]

@Nigel and @tri-man 47 - Not how either of you envisioned Boston this year, but truth be told I haven't heard of anyone who ran a race that they envisioned.  As others have said, props for gutting out a tough race (and still solid times!).  One of the people I'm friends with that was out there actually dropped somewhere around mile 15-16.  Said they just couldn't their #### together and finally just bottomed out.  I would've never in a million years guessed this to not finish Boston.  By the sound of it, the conditions significantly impacted most every runner.  

@SteveC702 - Simply fascinating reading race reports from an elite such as yourself.  Congrats on keeping your anti-chicked streak alive!  Wish I could say the same for myself.    

 

[SayWhat?]

@SFBayDuck I'm really surprised that a doctor at the Boston Marathon  didn't consider hyponatremia.  I also don't understand why Nigel felt so thirsty.  Perhaps he was misreading what his body was trying to tell him?

I wouldn't be that surprised by a doctor at the Boston Marathon not considering something like hyponatremia.  I'd imagine that race commands an "all hands on deck" approach from a medical professional perspective, and that a certain percentage of those doctors may not be well versed with something like hyponatremia which really isn't much of a medical concern outside of endurance sports. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

What does it take to run a sub-3 hour marathon?

Interesting read.  Most of us will never match Steve's times or his training, but what do you all think about the article?

I assumed the average sub 3 runner ran more miles.  

 

[SFBayDuck]

I assumed the average sub 3 runner ran more miles.  

Yeah, me too. Figured it'd be 70+. 

 

[pbm107]

I am curious since this is the first time I raced a fully tapered marathon with a HR monitor, so while I was initially alarmed at the 160-165 reading I was getting early on, I was also confident enough to know that the effort felt right to my body and basically stopped looking at the HR data after 5-6 miles or so. I did notice in my practice runs my HR was more in the 155-160 range whereas during the race I got into the 160s pretty early on, but just assumed this is because my legs were more rested and were therefore able to push a bit harder.

I experienced this as well during my marathon, in my last Marathon pace training run I averaged 156-163 and I averaged 167 for the actual race.  I saw 165 early on and decided to stop looking at it.

 

[tri-man 47]

Thanks guys. Although I am no expert on this, so I have to ask... is my HR supposed to fluctuate more than what it did? I thought my HR range (156-167) after the first 1KM was about the same as Tri-man's. Although I am supposed to be able to push it up a bit higher since I am a few years younger than him?

I am curious since this is the first time I raced a fully tapered marathon with a HR monitor, so while I was initially alarmed at the 160-165 reading I was getting early on, I was also confident enough to know that the effort felt right to my body and basically stopped looking at the HR data after 5-6 miles or so. I did notice in my practice runs my HR was more in the 155-160 range whereas during the race I got into the 160s pretty early on, but just assumed this is because my legs were more rested and were therefore able to push a bit harder. (that or I screwed up my taper with the traveling / time zone adjustment and my body was working harder than it should to maintain pace, I dunno).

Steve - In my ideal scenarios/best marathons, my HR holds quite steady through the first half of the race or so.  This is a balance of my training and race day management.  I strive to balance the pace (go faster!) and HR (go slower!).  The HR is the driver for me (unlike most runners), and I know that should be in the 150s, based on training.  The pace is what it is, then, based on my training.  These are very comfortable miles, so again, the HR stays steady.  In the second half, the effort becomes harder as I push that tempo to a longer distance, and I know the HR will start to move higher as I work to maintain pace. 

If your training showed HRs in the 155-160 (for long marathon-pace/tempo work?), then personally, I'd expect the race HR to be in that range early on.  Age notwithstanding, we seem to have a similar range.  If anything, I'd expect the rested legs would help keep your HR in that zone - those miles would be floating by comfortably.  The fact that it was running higher (160-165) could indicate tougher conditions ..maybe even more stress ...or frankly, if I dare suggest, a bit of disconnect between expectations and the race itself.  Maybe you were working harder than expected (particularly with the solo miles), which slightly elevated the HR, and that led to the slower pace in the final miles.  Maybe.  The beauty - or curse - is that the HR is simply doing what it needs to do.  We might not like it, but as I say many times, it's purely objective data!   

 

[tri-man 47]

I experienced this as well during my marathon, in my last Marathon pace training run I averaged 156-163 and I averaged 167 for the actual race.  I saw 165 early on and decided to stop looking at it.

pbm - remind me how that all turned out ...the overall pacing and results, and the HR numbers (if you went back to look).

 

[pbm107]

pbm - remind me how that all turned out ...the overall pacing and results, and the HR numbers (if you went back to look).

It worked out well, I broke 3 hours with a 8 min PR.  Here is the garmin data, you should really get on Strava.  I have determined I can't race marathon's by HR, I can't get predictable HR results.  For my 4 marathons I have averaged 170, 163, 167, and 167.  The last one is the only one where I ran a negative split.

 

[igbomb]

@tri-man 47 Not asking you to write up some big guide or anything, but have you posted your methodology on training with a HR monitor in this thread? How to determine your zones, what zones you train in, how you arrived at what HR to race by, etc. Just curious. I love data and like the HR monitor approach but have not been using mine since I haven't been running long enough to feel like I have anything of substance to gain from it.

 

[pbm107]

What does it take to run a sub-3 hour marathon?

Interesting read.  Most of us will never match Steve's times or his training, but what do you all think about the article?

I thought it would be more miles than that too, but perhaps people aren't loading all their runs (like treadmill runs) to Strava.  One of my favorite things on Strava is the View Flybys, I like seeing how those around me paced themselves and I also like looking at their training logs.  However it is frustrating to see how little training someone in their twenties needs to run to beat me in a half.

 

[ChiefD]

since I haven't been running long enough to feel like I have anything of substance to gain from it.

As a relative newbie myself to training by HR, I would say that even if you aren't running much yet, ANY data you get from it will be substantial data. You have to start somewhere with the data, so you may as well do it.

 

[tri-man 47]

@tri-man 47 Not asking you to write up some big guide or anything, but have you posted your methodology on training with a HR monitor in this thread? How to determine your zones, what zones you train in, how you arrived at what HR to race by, etc. Just curious. I love data and like the HR monitor approach but have not been using mine since I haven't been running long enough to feel like I have anything of substance to gain from it.

igbomb - recognizing that many here have likely heard more than enough of my harping on HR (and everything else, for that matter ), I can put together a summary ...couched in training ranges that Ned has posted at some point, and in the context we've discussed about knowing our resting rates and max HR.

 

[SteveC702]

If your training showed HRs in the 155-160 (for long marathon-pace/tempo work?), then personally, I'd expect the race HR to be in that range early on.  Age notwithstanding, we seem to have a similar range.  If anything, I'd expect the rested legs would help keep your HR in that zone - those miles would be floating by comfortably.  The fact that it was running higher (160-165) could indicate tougher conditions ..maybe even more stress ...or frankly, if I dare suggest, a bit of disconnect between expectations and the race itself.  Maybe you were working harder than expected (particularly with the solo miles), which slightly elevated the HR, and that led to the slower pace in the final miles.  Maybe.  The beauty - or curse - is that the HR is simply doing what it needs to do.  We might not like it, but as I say many times, it's purely objective data!   

I appreciate the response, especially the part I highlighted above. I would lean towards the "tougher conditions / stress" part as the more likely cause. I didn't want to dwell on it, but the truth is I didn't feel like I quite adjusted to the time difference. My wife and I also did a fair amount of walking the first few days of the trip, about 3-5 miles a day, which in retrospect may have tired my legs out a bit. My easy run paces never got down to where they did in the past during my taper weeks as well.

The "expectations" part did go through my mind, and while I would accept the possibility that I am not exactly in the place where I can allow more than a small dose of doubt to enter my mind, I think I have some fairly subjective data to back up my assessment of my current fitness. (another benefit of keeping a detailed log)

1. Comparison of Key Workouts Before my 2:22:43 @ 2015 Houston Marathon (January 2015) and this training cycle about 13-14 months later.

A. Longest Race Pace Tempo:

Before Houston (12 miles @ 5:36.9 avg, on treadmill at home, planned to go 12-16 and barely made it to 12)

Before Hamburg (15 miles @ 5:26..5 avg, on same treadmill at home, planned to go 12-15, and had to force myself to stop at 15 after rolling last 3 miles at 5:24, 5:23, 5:18)

(To add to this, I also did a 4x3 mile workout on the same treadmill before Houston where I only averaged 5:29.6/mi, with 4min rest between the intervals, that means a year later I could not only run an extra 3 miles over that workout at 3s/mi faster, but I also didn't need the 12 minutes of rest)

B. Threshold Tempo workout:

Before Houston (6 miles @ 5:16.5 avg, on treadmill at home)

Before Hamburg (10 mile race @ 5:18 avg, with last 6 miles @ 5:14 avg, or 4x2 mi @ 5:14s with 2:30 rest on a hilly bikepath loop).
Granted the differences between these runs aren't as obvious as the MP pace equivalent runs, the workouts during the Hamburg cycle were done outdoors with slightly windy and hilly conditions in the thick of training, whereas the 6 mile tempo before Houston was about 2 weeks out when I had started my taper.

2. Heart rate data of some key sessions during Hamburg cycle: (I am going to use a 10s/mi sea level conversion here to make comparisons between efforts easier)

26 days out - 4x2mi with 2:30 recovery, averaged 5:14/mi. (5:04/mi converted to sea level) - AHR 158.

22 days out - 15mi progression tempo on treadmill, averaged 5:26.5/mi (5:16.5/mi converted to sea level) - AHR 156. In fact, it didn't creep over the 160s until I was on mile 12 of the workout.

14 days out - 10 mile race at sea level. Pace was 5:05-5:10 depending on whether you trusted my garmin or the course. I probably didn't run tangents perfectly with the 50 turns or so on the course either. - AHR 161.

8 days out - 5 mile tempo with 4 miles @ MP equivalent + 1 mile at LT effort. I averaged 155 AHR for the 4 mile segment (5:25/mi actual, or about 5:15/mi at sea level), then went straight into a 5:09 mile (4:59 altitude adjusted) at 162 AHR.

Race - 5:24/mi at 162 AHR at sea level.

With all that data. I just don't think running 5:24/mi on race day at 162 AHR lines up with the training sessions I put in. Hell, two weeks before the race I was running 5:05-5:10s at 161 AHR for 10 miles. I think one could argue that my HR would gradually increase late in a marathon while maintaining the same pace, so maybe I am not comparing apples-to-apples. I pulled the data for my race and my AHR was 161 through the first 15 miles of the marathon. (My average pace was 5:17s at this point). So a fair comparison to this may be to either the 15mi tempo @ 5:16.5/mi (altitude adjusted) on my treadmill @ 158 AHR, or the 10-mile tuneup race where I had the same AHR (161) but was able to run about 7-10s/mi faster?

I guess it's back to the drawing board, but I think the fitness is there, I just have to figure out how to bring it out on race day.

 

[tri-man 47]

Very interesting, Steve ...solid data.  A few thoughts (with incredible respect, of course!):

- The 15 mile progression run (22 days out) was on a treadmill.  Shouldn't you adjust slightly for the effect of being on a TM?  Wouldn't running outside either be a few ticks slower on the pace or higher on the HR?  A good TM run might be false comfort.  The 10 mile race seems a better indicator.  As you note, Hamburg was then a higher HR ...but as stated, that could be due to the conditions/stress.

- That said, I don't think the couple extra ticks on the HR would be limiting.  Your body (hammies) seem to hold you back more than the aerobic issues later in the race.

- Do you do any/many pure interval workouts?  I don't recall those, nor do I see them in recent months on Strava (I just signed up to scope your workouts).  E.g., Yasso 800s or mile repeats?  I could envision benefits to stressing your legs at some sub-5:00 ( ) pacing.  That, or some of those 2 mile repeats at or below 5:00/mi (sub-marathon pace), or some 6-8 mile tempos at 5:00-5:05.  ...all with caution to avoid injury with Ottawa looming in 5 weeks.  My sense is that your body doesn't experience a lot of that sub-marathon pacing, and so when fatigue kicks in, the body tightens up.

My recommendation?  Worry less about big mileage these next three weeks and slip in 4-6 speed workouts.  In Ottawa, then, when you run the early miles at 5:15 or so, the body and heart are like "no big deal ...we're used to much faster than this."  It could be tough to pick up the three minutes you need without shaking something up.   

 

[SteveC702]

Thanks, I think the treadmill / lower HR comment is definitely true. Although that should still put my 15mi with 156 AHR up to about 160-161 at most, which should still predict about 5:15/mi pace at sea level.

As for the recommendations on doing some faster stuff, that's somewhat in line with what I had planned, but also slightly different in terms of introducing neuromuscular stress.

As of right now: I am mixing in a couple of these sessions:

*1-2 5000s on the track.

*A downhill half-marathon at pretty close to sea level. (Originally I was just going since my wife wanted to run, but now I am going to be using it as a marathon paced effort run, but it will be a bit faster due to the elevation loss, and therefore a bit tougher on the legs as well.

*Possibly one more 8k/10K tune-up race.

For the last cycle, I did do some faster stuff in the build-up, but it was mostly before I acquired the HR monitor. There was a pretty brutal session of 5x(1600,400) on 3/24 where I closed with a 67. That was followed by a 3x(2mi,1mi) with the 1mi at close to 5K-8K pace. Then I did some fartleks in the last few weeks where I got down to about 5K/3K effort at the end. My friend that I am consulting with on my training is a big HR guy too, but more importantly I think he sensed that my legs could use a little bit more of a stimulus from faster stuff. He also knows me well enough to suggest that I do so through fartleks and not workouts where I am trying to hit times, because that will increase the possibility of me trying to overdo things when the primary purpose of the shorter stuff is the effort/stimulus and not hitting specific times.

 

[tri-man 47]

Sounds like a plan, Steve!  Adding a handful of intense (not brutal) sub-marathon pace runs could help you find that extra gear you'll need in Ottawa! 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Absolutely right about the conditions.  I could NOT get my HR under control.  As you saw, I kept backing off the pace, but with no success.  It was in the 160s all race long.  But I kept plugging.  Cramps and light dizziness over the last few miles.  But, for all that: proud to finish 11,560ish and, per my son, top 15% or so in the AG.

neat to meet Nigel briefly yesterday!  So nice of him to get my gear bag and drop it off for me.  I retrieved it after a 15 minute sit in the med tent, waiting for the lightheadedness to pass.

Dude, you are hard core.  Mrs APK says congrats on the run.  Great job.

 

[tri-man 47]

Dude, you are hard core.  Mrs APK says congrats on the run.  Great job.

Thanks, APK (and Mrs APK)!  You're getting close to the point where those young twins of yours can really start to enjoy watching you run some races!

 

[mr. furley]

if i could figure out how to stop having to #### in the middle of long runs i would be so happy

 

[Annyong]

You guys think a "race"like this would frown upon a couple people showing up that didn't pay? I mean, they don't even have bibs (wristbands I think) or a closed course. 

http://breweryrunningseries.com/product/goose-island-brew-beer-run/

Let's consider this an "un-race" as it goes against many principles of those fancy 5k races you may be familiar with. This is not timed and you will not get a medal when you finish. What you will get is an excuse to enjoy the great Chicagoland outdoors, FREE beer and swag and an awesome community event, and the wonderful feeling that you are supporting our local community. Remember: a portion of all proceeds go to benefit local non-profits. Visit our website to see who we support and why: www.breweryrunningseries.com!