Ran a 10k - Official Thread (6 Viewers)

[-OZ-]

You're in fantastic shape, my friend. 

Thanks.  I fear I won't be able to continue these improvements once I start working again. 

Also, yesterday was perfect running weather.  66 and slightly breezy.

 

[MAC_32]

Been doing some thinking - is there any real rhyme or reason to run 13-15 miles during training?  If you're new then you need those mileage runs to build, but once established I feel like I'll get more bang for my buck if I ensure at least a few miles post glycogen burnout rather than just a couple.  

 

[Hang 10]

Been doing some thinking - is there any real rhyme or reason to run 13-15 miles during training?  If you're new then you need those mileage runs to build, but once established I feel like I'll get more bang for my buck if I ensure at least a few miles post glycogen burnout rather than just a couple.  

I've read that if your long run isn't 2 hours, it's not really a "long run". So I guess that's the benefit of going 15 or so. It's usually a true long run and obviously there's a big benefit of doing them. 

 

[MAC_32]

I've read that if your long run isn't 2 hours, it's not really a "long run". So I guess that's the benefit of going 15 or so. It's usually a true long run and obviously there's a big benefit of doing them. 

I should probably do times since we're all different paces - I'm referring to those runs in the hour 45 minute range.  If you're going beyond an hour and a half or so then you'll benefit more hitting that 2 hour mark (and beyond) rather than stopping in between.  It kinda feels like no man's land.  Certainly not a wasted run, but you'll get more out of an extra 15-30 mins.  And if you can tell that a 2+ hour run is not in the cards halfway then make an exit strategy to bail at 75-90 mins then plot out your mulligan.

 

[pbm107]

Been doing some thinking - is there any real rhyme or reason to run 13-15 miles during training?  If you're new then you need those mileage runs to build, but once established I feel like I'll get more bang for my buck if I ensure at least a few miles post glycogen burnout rather than just a couple.  

For me the mid week long runs are the most important.  During my buildup before running a formal marathon plan I like to run two a week starting at 10, then building up 12-14 (for some reason I rarely run an odd # of miles).  After about 6 weeks of this I feel strong and ready to handle a the intensity of a formal plan.  

 

[MAC_32]

For me the mid week long runs are the most important.  During my buildup before running a formal marathon plan I like to run two a week starting at 10, then building up 12-14 (for some reason I rarely run an odd # of miles).  After about 6 weeks of this I feel strong and ready to handle a the intensity of a formal plan.  

Extremely good point regarding the build up phase, thank you.

 

[Ned]

For me the mid week long runs are the most important.

And the hardest, IMO. :X  

 

[pbm107]

And the hardest, IMO. :X  

They aren't that bad, I'm hoping I'll see you running them in a few weeks.  In case you were wondering Sunday is 25 weeks out from Philly.

 

[AAABatteries]

Thanks for raising the bar for me - I finally broke 15 minute miles and now I've got to figure out how to shave another 1+ minute off my PR pace.

####er.

You will get an invite if this becomes an annual thing.

 

[-OZ-]

I should probably do times since we're all different paces - I'm referring to those runs in the hour 45 minute range.  If you're going beyond an hour and a half or so then you'll benefit more hitting that 2 hour mark (and beyond) rather than stopping in between.  It kinda feels like no man's land.  Certainly not a wasted run, but you'll get more out of an extra 15-30 mins.  And if you can tell that a 2+ hour run is not in the cards halfway then make an exit strategy to bail at 75-90 mins then plot out your mulligan.

I think it depends on the goal for that training session.  the 13 mile runs I have done at a medium pace (cue Adam Sandler) probably don't do much for me other than build the base,  but the interval sessions I sure hope do. 

 

[2Young2BBald]

So there you have it, a whopping 4 races in my career but would really like to do more.  They are always fun so maybe the Chicago guys can stay on me, and maybe @tri-man 47 will have some tips for my attempt at an Olympic distance tri in August.  Got to stay accountable!

First tri or first Oly?  The Oly distance is my favorite traditional distance, but I wouldn't have wanted to do one as my first ever tri.  It it is your first, I'd recommend doing a sprint as a tune up, if for no other reason that to get used to open water swimming in a pack of racers and to practice transitions.  For training, I was a big fan of the triple brick.  For only training, this was a series of 3 sets of around 8 miles biked and 2 miles ran.  You simulate the total Oly distance, while getting your legs used to the transition from the bike to the run.  And it you are a  like me, you can set up a rack and make transitions part of the routine.   

 

[-OZ-]

First tri or first Oly?  The Oly distance is my favorite traditional distance, but I wouldn't have wanted to do one as my first ever tri.  It it is your first, I'd recommend doing a sprint as a tune up, if for no other reason that to get used to open water swimming in a pack of racers and to practice transitions.  For training, I was a big fan of the triple brick.  For only training, this was a series of 3 sets of around 8 miles biked and 2 miles ran.  You simulate the total Oly distance, while getting your legs used to the transition from the bike to the run.  And it you are a  like me, you can set up a rack and make transitions part of the routine.   

Agreed on all. I never did the triple brick but it seems a really good concept. 

 

[ditka...mike ditka]

I can count on 1 hand the number of guys that have broken 18 for the 5K in here.  You're faster than most of us.

Welcome!

Thanks Ned, but lets not forget, that was 2004.  I was 22 .  If done today I'd be ecstatic with 1930-20.  And that may be a stretch.  

 

[JShare87]

Thanks Ned, but lets not forget, that was 2004.  I was 22 .  If done today I'd be ecstatic with 1930-20.  And that may be a stretch.  

Sub 20 is not slow, my friend. 

 

[Brony]

I can count on 1 hand the number of guys that have broken 18 for the 5K in here.  You're faster than most of us.

Welcome!

I don't need a hand to figure the number of guys in here that have broken 20 while wearing a Ditka 'stach.  That's the impressive one!

 

[SFBayDuck]

Sub 20 is not slow, my friend. 

I've had plenty of mountain miles that I would have been happy doing in sub-20.

 

[ditka...mike ditka]

First tri or first Oly?  The Oly distance is my favorite traditional distance, but I wouldn't have wanted to do one as my first ever tri.  It it is your first, I'd recommend doing a sprint as a tune up, if for no other reason that to get used to open water swimming in a pack of racers and to practice transitions.  For training, I was a big fan of the triple brick.  For only training, this was a series of 3 sets of around 8 miles biked and 2 miles ran.  You simulate the total Oly distance, while getting your legs used to the transition from the bike to the run.  And it you are a  like me, you can set up a rack and make transitions part of the routine.   

It will be my first tri.  I plan on trying to do a sprint sometime this summer but my work schedule is so crazy its hard to commit right now.  I may potentially need to do one up in Milwaukee or another neighboring city because I agree that Ill need to get used to the open water swimming in a pack of racers.  And thanks for the suggestion on the brick training.  Ill definitely give that a go next Wednesday when I get home from this current trip.  

 

[ditka...mike ditka]

Sub 20 is not slow, my friend. 

Agreed.  Hope it didnt come off like I was saying it was slow.  Running, at least to me, is a sport that you are mainly competing against yourself and looking for self improvement.  So was more just commenting that its tough getting slower no matter where you start and you long for the days you could run faster!

 

[Ned]

They aren't that bad, I'm hoping I'll see you running them in a few weeks.  In case you were wondering Sunday is 25 weeks out from Philly.

Nah I doubt that's in the cards.  

 

[JShare87]

Agreed.  Hope it didnt come off like I was saying it was slow.  Running, at least to me, is a sport that you are mainly competing against yourself and looking for self improvement.  So was more just commenting that its tough getting slower no matter where you start and you long for the days you could run faster!

It didn't. You just seem so casual about it, guess I'm just a little jealous is all. You are absolutely right about competing with yourself. I will admit though, it's hard seeing people like Mac and Juxt's times and remembering to compete against yourself and not others (they're kinda good). 

 

[pbm107]

Nah I doubt that's in the cards.  

You're running now so at least there is a chance.

 

[ditka...mike ditka]

Just joined the Strava group. Never used that app before.  Do you guys have the premium version or just the regular?

 

[Juxtatarot]

Just joined the Strava group. Never used that app before.  Do you guys have the premium version or just the regular?

Most just the regular.

 

[MAC_32]

It didn't. You just seem so casual about it, guess I'm just a little jealous is all. You are absolutely right about competing with yourself. I will admit though, it's hard seeing people like Mac and Juxt's times and remembering to compete against yourself and not others (they're kinda good). 

Want to feel better about yourself? Check out what I was doing last summer. It's tough during, but as you're building miles your times will go the way you don't want them to go.  Stay focused on the long game and you will find out what you're really capable of though. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

 You are absolutely right about competing with yourself. I will admit though, it's hard seeing people like Mac and Juxt's times and remembering to compete against yourself and not others (they're kinda good). 

Oh, we compete against each other too.  (Just don't gloat after you beat all my times!)

 

[-OZ-]

Just joined the Strava group. Never used that app before.  Do you guys have the premium version or just the regular?

Like jux said mostly regular.  The premium looks like it's worth it but I'm not spending money right now. 

 I will admit though, it's hard seeing people like Mac and Juxt's times and remembering to compete against yourself and not others (they're kinda good). 

No kidding.  Don't even look at Steve.

 

[gruecd]

Trail 30K coming up on Saturday, and I've been having some issues with my left hamstring, likely tendonitis.  I'm seeing a guy today for some "radial pulse therapy," whatever the hell that is.  And I'll probably run with 3/4-length compression tights just to keep it warm.  I hate getting old.

 

[2Young2BBald]

It will be my first tri.  I plan on trying to do a sprint sometime this summer but my work schedule is so crazy its hard to commit right now.  I may potentially need to do one up in Milwaukee or another neighboring city because I agree that Ill need to get used to the open water swimming in a pack of racers.  And thanks for the suggestion on the brick training.  Ill definitely give that a go next Wednesday when I get home from this current trip.  

3Disciplines hosts a ton of Tris on the west side of MI and in IN & IL.  Their sprint swim is typically only 500M.  Kenny, the owner and RD is kind of a tool, but they put on well run and safe events.  Tri Find is also a fantastic resource for finding events. 

 

[SFBayDuck]

Just joined the Strava group. Never used that app before.  Do you guys have the premium version or just the regular?

Looks like you were running in my hometown yesterday!  If you're around Portland for awhile and like to run trails at all, head up to Forest Park right on the edge of downtown.  Google Map Lower Macleay Park for an easy place to start.  

 

[tri-man 47]

There you have it, a whopping 4 races in my career but would really like to do more.  They are always fun so maybe the Chicago guys can stay on me, and maybe @tri-man 47 will have some tips for my attempt at an Olympic distance tri in August.  Got to stay accountable!

Welcome, fast ditka!  FYI, my 5K PR (pre-internet when I was young) was 18:08 ...never did crack 18.  We have other very experienced tri-guys here, but I just happen to be in late-stage training right now for a HIM on 6/11.  You have running talent, but running after a swim and bike is a rather indescribable experience.  As 2Young suggests, practice some runs after a bike ride(s).  You feel like you're running in cement, though the pacing is better than you think 'cause you're warmed up.  Be prepared for the swim.  The start is an uncomfortable mosh pit, and if you're undertrained, you'll be wiped out before even getting to the bike and run.  Good logic: You've got a glass full of energy - don't drink it all up on the swim.  Open water swimming is quite enjoyable, but it takes practice to use sight lines and to use some elevate-look-and-lunge technique to peek ahead.  It doesn't hurt to practice a bit of bilateral breathing, just in case you need to take a look the other way.  The bike is your time to fuel up.  Think about what you'd like (e.g., gels) and figure out how you'll carry them and open them.  At the end of the bike, use a fast rotation to get the legs ready for the run.  The run is just hard.  I'd suggest pre-planning a mantra or two to carry you along and fight off the negative thoughts that will arise.  My run will be an out-and-back, out-and-back.  It's in a generally residential area, so i plan to distract myself in one segment by counting U.S. flags.

And I still kinda suck at biking.  Got outside today, but my speed was, well, not speedy.  But I did push through 2 hours without much loss in tempo, and the neck, shoulders, hands, and butt weren't much worse for the wear.  At most I have 10 days of training left, so I'll grab every opportunity to get out on the bike, hopefully getting in at least a couple 3 hour rides.

MAC - I like the 80 minute runs, give or take.  Longer than that starts to beat up my body ...probably without much benefit (except in marathon training).

 

[tri-man 47]

And Duck: My flights are booked and car rented - arriving Sacramento on the 22nd; heading back out on the 28th (couple days R&R and exploring the area after your race).     Just gotta arrange housing (except for the night of the 24th, right, 'cause we'll be "on duty" for you    ).

Interesting story for you: A guy I work with (recently hired) was telling me about a slow, older woman he and his running buddy frequently see in his neighborhood.  They finally had the chance to get acquainted with her.  She's originally from Texas - and she's the first woman from outside of California to have won Western States!  Small world.

 

[SFBayDuck]

And Duck: My flights are booked and car rented - arriving Sacramento on the 22nd; heading back out on the 28th (couple days R&R and exploring the area after your race).     Just gotta arrange housing (except for the night of the 24th, right, 'cause we'll be "on duty" for you    ).

Interesting story for you: A guy I work with (recently hired) was telling me about a slow, older woman he and his running buddy frequently see in his neighborhood.  They finally had the chance to get acquainted with her.  She's originally from Texas - and she's the first woman from outside of California to have won Western States!  Small world.

Nice, Mary Hammes - first woman or man from outside Cali to win WS100, in 1987. 

Let's talk soon about lodging so I can give you some ideas. And I do have 2 hotel rooms in Auburn for Saturday night so you and the rest of the crew has a place to crash for a bit. 

Headed up tomorrow to run the final 70 miles of the course over three days this weekend. The stoke is high. 

30 days. #seeyouinsquaw

 

[JShare87]

Signed up for a 5K a while back that takes place Monday morning. It's one of the most popular races around here. Debating on whether or not to skip it. I kind of just want to enjoy this 3-day weekend (drink and eat like a fat animal). But, I am pretty intrigued to see what my time would be. I feel I'm capable of running somewhere in the 18s. My PR is 19:46 I ran a few weeks ago. Another reason to skip is because it will throw my training schedule out of whack a little. What is the consensus about running races during training?

 

[mr. furley]

Signed up for a 5K a while back that takes place Monday morning. It's one of the most popular races around here. Debating on whether or not to skip it. I kind of just want to enjoy this 3-day weekend (drink and eat like a fat animal). But, I am pretty intrigued to see what my time would be. I feel I'm capable of running somewhere in the 18s. My PR is 19:46 I ran a few weeks ago. Another reason to skip is because it will throw my training schedule out of whack a little. What is the consensus about running races during training?

go run it with a gut full of meat and beer and a head pounding like a jackhammer

few experiences quite like it in life

 

[Ned]

Signed up for a 5K a while back that takes place Monday morning. It's one of the most popular races around here. Debating on whether or not to skip it. I kind of just want to enjoy this 3-day weekend (drink and eat like a fat animal). But, I am pretty intrigued to see what my time would be. I feel I'm capable of running somewhere in the 18s. My PR is 19:46 I ran a few weeks ago. Another reason to skip is because it will throw my training schedule out of whack a little. What is the consensus about running races during training?

A couple of days ago you were feeling run down - I say go enjoy the long weekend and forget the race.  There will be plenty of time later in phase 3 of training where you can run some tune-up races and PR.

 

[Hang 10]

Signed up for a 5K a while back that takes place Monday morning. It's one of the most popular races around here. Debating on whether or not to skip it. I kind of just want to enjoy this 3-day weekend (drink and eat like a fat animal). But, I am pretty intrigued to see what my time would be. I feel I'm capable of running somewhere in the 18s. My PR is 19:46 I ran a few weeks ago. Another reason to skip is because it will throw my training schedule out of whack a little. What is the consensus about running races during training?

Love doing 5K's while I'm training. 

Do a nice 2-3 mile warmup before and 2-3 mile cool down after and you'll have yourself a nice day of marathon training. You can use this to substitute one of your workouts for the week.

 

[Hang 10]

A couple of days ago you were feeling run down - I say go enjoy the long weekend and forget the race.  There will be plenty of time later in phase 3 of training where you can run some tune-up races and PR.

Ha..he was wasn't he. Reminds me of me. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

Signed up for a 5K a while back that takes place Monday morning. It's one of the most popular races around here. Debating on whether or not to skip it. I kind of just want to enjoy this 3-day weekend (drink and eat like a fat animal). But, I am pretty intrigued to see what my time would be. I feel I'm capable of running somewhere in the 18s. My PR is 19:46 I ran a few weeks ago. Another reason to skip is because it will throw my training schedule out of whack a little. What is the consensus about running races during training?

Either choice sounds like a good one to me!

 

[ditka...mike ditka]

Looks like you were running in my hometown yesterday!  If you're around Portland for awhile and like to run trails at all, head up to Forest Park right on the edge of downtown.  Google Map Lower Macleay Park for an easy place to start.  

Just saw this.  Thanks for the advice, ill keep that in mind when I am back in September.  This time it was just a day trip!

 

[pbm107]

A couple of days ago you were feeling run down - I say go enjoy the long weekend and forget the race.  There will be plenty of time later in phase 3 of training where you can run some tune-up races and PR.

He also ran a Marathon Pace run today, they can take a few days to recover from.

 

[ChiefD]

Have a 5k scheduled for Monday as well. Obviously my training has been sporadic, so not sure how to approach this one. My wife is also running, and this will be our first race ever running together. This is the same race where I ran my PR of 22:53 two years ago and finished second in my age group. So I have 2 options the way I see it:

1. Run with my wife. She is pretty slow, but would be just a nice easy run for me.

2. Go balls out and try and snag a medal. I looked at the history of this race, and if I run a sub 26:00 I should be able to get at least 3rd. Which at my current fitness I can do.

I'm thinking #2 at this point. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

Have a 5k scheduled for Monday as well. Obviously my training has been sporadic, so not sure how to approach this one. My wife is also running, and this will be our first race ever running together. This is the same race where I ran my PR of 22:53 two years ago and finished second in my age group. So I have 2 options the way I see it:

1. Run with my wife. She is pretty slow, but would be just a nice easy run for me.

2. Go balls out and try and snag a medal. I looked at the history of this race, and if I run a sub 26:00 I should be able to get at least 3rd. Which at my current fitness I can do.

I'm thinking #2 at this point. 

#2!

 

[Brony]

Quick medical update

I've never considered myself anything special and combining that with working in the healthcare industry, I've always been of the belief that 000's of people must have encountered the same kind of injury that I'm facing.  The struggle is simply connecting to that doctor who's seen it a bunch of times and knows what to do.   So while the MD I'm seeing now seems like the closest to "that guy", the recent patterns of the last few weeks have reminded me of the same old same old in terms of injury... slow rehab and recovery, then happy for a couple of weeks, then injury again. Lather, rinse, repeat.  Frustating & depressing all over again.  Not knowing the underlying source of pain has been also a huge source of frustration.

 Since I now have a better knowledge of the affected area (peroneus longus), I did some googling only to find people with similar experiences / condition, but no solutions. 

So I probed more at my visit with running MD this morning to get a vibe on the working diagnosis & prognosis.  He still feels confident that this is nerve entrapment, not tendonitis.  When I asked why, he noted that I experience no pain when moving the foot/ankle around, nor do I have inflammation, which rules out typical tendonitis.   So the nerve entrapment implies that the nerves in my upper calf area are more sensitized and will signal pain at lower thresholds than would a normal tissue area.  If true, it's good news for overall health of the underlying muscles, tendons. But, the path to recovery is sloooowwwwww (as I already suspected).  The plan is to untrain these nerves to signal pain and inch-by-inch move this threshold.  It seems like 20 miles a week is my safe zone where symptoms don't escalate, so we'll stay at this mileage for the summer.  After 2 or 3 months at this level, we'll ever so slowly try to push it.  He says that he's seen it before, but its presentation and recovery varies from person to person. 

So on the one hand, I'm no better in terms of potential weekly mileage than I was 2 years ago.  On the other, I feel confident running within this window and I'm not as paranoid about each step being the one that tweaks things.  Also, daily background pain has improved vs. 2 years ago, so I'm better than before, just not better better. 

 

[Hang 10]

Have a 5k scheduled for Monday as well. Obviously my training has been sporadic, so not sure how to approach this one. My wife is also running, and this will be our first race ever running together. This is the same race where I ran my PR of 22:53 two years ago and finished second in my age group. So I have 2 options the way I see it:

1. Run with my wife. She is pretty slow, but would be just a nice easy run for me.

2. Go balls out and try and snag a medal. I looked at the history of this race, and if I run a sub 26:00 I should be able to get at least 3rd. Which at my current fitness I can do.

I'm thinking #2 at this point. 

You knew the answer before you even asked the question here! 

 

[Brony]

Have a 5k scheduled for Monday as well. Obviously my training has been sporadic, so not sure how to approach this one. My wife is also running, and this will be our first race ever running together. This is the same race where I ran my PR of 22:53 two years ago and finished second in my age group. So I have 2 options the way I see it:

1. Run with my wife. She is pretty slow, but would be just a nice easy run for me.

2. Go balls out and try and snag a medal. I looked at the history of this race, and if I run a sub 26:00 I should be able to get at least 3rd. Which at my current fitness I can do.

I'm thinking #2 at this point. 

I just got offered a free beer.  Should I accept it, or should I pass? 

 

[Osaurus]

I just got offered a free beer.  Should I accept it, or should I pass? 

 

[-OZ-]

Signed up for a 5K a while back that takes place Monday morning. It's one of the most popular races around here. Debating on whether or not to skip it. I kind of just want to enjoy this 3-day weekend (drink and eat like a fat animal). But, I am pretty intrigued to see what my time would be. I feel I'm capable of running somewhere in the 18s. My PR is 19:46 I ran a few weeks ago. Another reason to skip is because it will throw my training schedule out of whack a little. What is the consensus about running races during training?

I'd run it without worrying too much about time.  Have fun with it, be social before and after the race.  The single greatest thing about local racing is meeting and seeing people you barely know, get to know them better.  Screw the time, maybe don't even bring your garmin (just log in the official time on Strava later).   

Have a 5k scheduled for Monday as well. Obviously my training has been sporadic, so not sure how to approach this one. My wife is also running, and this will be our first race ever running together. This is the same race where I ran my PR of 22:53 two years ago and finished second in my age group. So I have 2 options the way I see it:

1. Run with my wife. She is pretty slow, but would be just a nice easy run for me.

2. Go balls out and try and snag a medal. I looked at the history of this race, and if I run a sub 26:00 I should be able to get at least 3rd. Which at my current fitness I can do.

I'm thinking #2 at this point. 

When in doubt, go #2

I just got offered a free beer.  Should I accept it, or should I pass? 

you should pass that beer to me  

 

[-OZ-]

Got a late start today because my wife insisted on sending our visa and other documents in this morning (still don't know when we'll travel).  

After about 5 miles I decided to assess my 5k time.  there's a nice stretch of country road starting about 2 miles from here that don't have many intersections and isn't heavily traveled.  So, following @AAABatteries example, I did the inaugural OZ 5k.  and DAMMMMMMIT  got 20:01.  Seriously, 2 friggin seconds.   (I have broken 20 before, a few times though apparently that was before I was on Strava.)  FWIW, if GAP mattered, it would be almost 30 seconds faster (pace 6:26, GAP 6:17)  

ETA: Suck Index was 148. (noted for the record) 

 

[MAC_32]

Signed up for a 5K a while back that takes place Monday morning. It's one of the most popular races around here. Debating on whether or not to skip it. I kind of just want to enjoy this 3-day weekend (drink and eat like a fat animal). But, I am pretty intrigued to see what my time would be. I feel I'm capable of running somewhere in the 18s. My PR is 19:46 I ran a few weeks ago. Another reason to skip is because it will throw my training schedule out of whack a little. What is the consensus about running races during training?

Run it, but approach depends on how you feel Monday morning.  If you're not feeling it then don't force it - treat it like a 10 mile run w/3 miles at tempo'ish pace.  If you have some pop in your legs and energy levels are back then go for it!  Old saying goes, one day recovery for every mile raced so you'll still be able to MLR Thursday and long run Sunday even with the race.  

 

[JShare87]

Got a late start today because my wife insisted on sending our visa and other documents in this morning (still don't know when we'll travel).  

After about 5 miles I decided to assess my 5k time.  there's a nice stretch of country road starting about 2 miles from here that don't have many intersections and isn't heavily traveled.  So, following @AAABatteries example, I did the inaugural OZ 5k.  and DAMMMMMMIT  got 20:01.  Seriously, 2 friggin seconds.   (I have broken 20 before, a few times though apparently that was before I was on Strava.)  FWIW, if GAP mattered, it would be almost 30 seconds faster (pace 6:26, GAP 6:17)  

ETA: Suck Index was 148. (noted for the record) 

What is GAP?