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Ran a 10k - Official Thread (18 Viewers)

As I really don't know much about running other than what you guys have been teaching me, is this sarcasm and everyone says the same thing?  Yet you guys all run these ridiculous distances?
Yes and yes.

Short version, if you want to run the short stuff faster then you need to run more miles.  

I've ran my whole life, but it took until about 2 years ago to finally get that through my thick skull.  I came up with a goal to run a sub 18 5k about 5 or 6 years ago.  After 4 years of flailing away, and I did get down to an 18:18, I moved on.  Everything went right that 18:18 day and I told myself a couple of slower attempts afterwards that it's over - make another goal.  So I moved onto longer distances.  And it went well.  Extremely well.  And I signed up for a marathon.  But I felt I needed a break from the slow crawl that is marathon training.  So instead of doing a speed workout one day I did a 5K.  Had no expectations.  And clocked a 17 flat.  Then a month later, despite being in peak marathon training mode and feeling like a slug, one upped it to 16:27.

A half decade of trying to just run fast and I couldn't get faster. Then one year, less than actually, of just increasing volume then BAM - 2 minutes off my time.  On a 5K.

---

Back to the short version - just run, man.  If it sticks and you want to start running faster then you need more miles.

 
Yes and yes.

Short version, if you want to run the short stuff faster then you need to run more miles.  

I've ran my whole life, but it took until about 2 years ago to finally get that through my thick skull.  I came up with a goal to run a sub 18 5k about 5 or 6 years ago.  After 4 years of flailing away, and I did get down to an 18:18, I moved on.  Everything went right that 18:18 day and I told myself a couple of slower attempts afterwards that it's over - make another goal.  So I moved onto longer distances.  And it went well.  Extremely well.  And I signed up for a marathon.  But I felt I needed a break from the slow crawl that is marathon training.  So instead of doing a speed workout one day I did a 5K.  Had no expectations.  And clocked a 17 flat.  Then a month later, despite being in peak marathon training mode and feeling like a slug, one upped it to 16:27.

A half decade of trying to just run fast and I couldn't get faster. Then one year, less than actually, of just increasing volume then BAM - 2 minutes off my time.  On a 5K.

---

Back to the short version - just run, man.  If it sticks and you want to start running faster then you need more miles.
That's fascinating.  Seriously.

 
So today is the first day that my training philosophy has conflicted with my new coach's. Apparently, I'm running too slowly for my easy runs. Said he doesn't want to see 8 min miles outside of warm up miles. Basically gotta run 7:40's at minimum. Had been going by HR for the last couple years but he's a pace guy. So now I guess I am too. Was hoping to naturally speed up as the weather cooled but oh well, let's do it. 

 
Said he doesn't want to see 8 min miles outside of warm up miles. Basically gotta run 7:40's at minimum. Had been going by HR for the last couple years but he's a pace guy. So now I guess I am too.
I would get a new coach, if anything you aren't running enough miles. I like what you were doing over the summer of 2015 rather than now. Sorry just my view of things, like the man said earlier,  mileage is king.

 
I would get a new coach, if anything you aren't running enough miles. I like what you were doing over the summer of 2015 rather than now. Sorry just my view of things, like the man said earlier,  mileage is king.
Well, I think the main reason I'm not running more miles is just being on the cautious side since I've been hurt 3 x in the last 10 months. I am building now so the plan is definitely to run more. Tough to balance my health and the training load I need to compete. I'm actually okay with erring on the side of being under trained but healthy. I'm not ready toss the baby out with the bath water quite yet. 

 
I should add that when I first met with the coach he discussed a long term plan, not just this marathon. If anything this marathon plan is just to reestablish a real base. I've been hurt so he didn't want to add miles and speed all at once. After I recover from this marathon, the plan is really train for a spring marathon. Speed, tempo, miles etc. I'm just going to trust the process because I believe being short sighted got me hurt. 

 
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Well, I think the main reason I'm not running more miles is just being on the cautious side since I've been hurt 3 x in the last 10 months. I am building now so the plan is definitely to run more. Tough to balance my health and the training load I need to compete. I'm actually okay with erring on the side of being under trained but healthy. I'm not ready toss the baby out with the bath water quite yet. 
That makes sense, your coach suggesting that you run all you miles faster than 7:40 doesn't. I apologize for being so harsh, I shouldn't be posting while drinking.

 
That makes sense, your coach suggesting that you run all you miles faster than 7:40 doesn't. I apologize for being so harsh, I shouldn't be posting while drinking.
No worries. 

But yeah, the paced stuff does make me a bit apprehensive. On the other hand, I'm not doing any tempo or speed work so it's not like running a little faster is going to burn me out for the important stuff. Honestly, as soon as the weather gets better, running 7:40's ain't gonna be all that difficult either. 

And again, it's just a different philosophy. I think training by pace is more old school. 

 
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That makes sense, your coach suggesting that you run all you miles faster than 7:40 doesn't. I apologize for being so harsh, I shouldn't be posting while drinking.
But. You're right. When the volume is lower more of them can be in the 7's, but as the mileage goes up the number of runs in the 8's do too. When I set out last night if you told me I needed to do those miles 7:40 or lower I'm fairly confident I'd have throat punched you. 

 
But. You're right. When the volume is lower more of them can be in the 7's, but as the mileage goes up the number of runs in the 8's do too. When I set out last night if you told me I needed to do those miles 7:40 or lower I'm fairly confident I'd have throat punched you. 
I'll see how it goes. I can't really see myself being a slave to a certain pace if I'm not feeling it. If I need to have a talk with him, I will. 

 
:lmao:

I knew this wasn't going to go over well here. 

But hey, just a little more perspective, It's not like he's asking me to drop a minute a mile here. We're talking 10-15 seconds. 

 
The one from 2 years ago? 

It's still only 10 seconds or so different. 7:40 is still around the middle of what it says my easy run should be. 
I don't like the new McMillan calculator, but I am seeing a 8:21-9:04 pace for recovery runs for a 3:08. I am guessing that you were in your best shape sometime between Fall 2015 and spring of 2016 so using that time isn't really all that conservative.  

My goal is to get in the shape I was 2 years ago, so you are not alone. 

 
I don't like the new McMillan calculator, but I am seeing a 8:21-9:04 pace for recovery runs for a 3:08. I am guessing that you were in your best shape sometime between Fall 2015 and spring of 2016 so using that time isn't really all that conservative.  

My goal is to get in the shape I was 2 years ago, so you are not alone. 
Well, sorta disagree. I was in better shape last fall before my injury but it doesn't really matter. 

I'm much better shape now than two years go. I just need to get some long runs in and I'm confident I'll run a marathon PR.  

Anyway,  I appreciate you guy's input and concern. Again, I won't let myself be a slave to a pace if I'm not feeling up to it. And I also won't be afraid to say so. :thumbup:

ETA: I see that you said recovery run. Just so we're not talking past each other, I wasn't talking about recoveries. I'll still be running those by HR. I was just talking easy daily runs. General aerobic.

 
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Based on my last 5K from McMillan:

Recovery runs: 8:07-8:50

Easy runs: 7:03-8:03

Long runs: 7:06-8:19

:shrug:  
According to my most recent race time, I should run a 5K at 10:13 pace and a 10K at 10:37.  Now I'm slow, but pretty sure I could do a little better than that.  

Of course plugging in your 100 mile time probably doesn't give the most accurate 5K and 10K results.  I don't think I'd need to stop and puke or get a foot massage from @tri-man 47 during a 10K.

 
Yes and yes.

Short version, if you want to run the short stuff faster then you need to run more miles.  

I've ran my whole life, but it took until about 2 years ago to finally get that through my thick skull.  I came up with a goal to run a sub 18 5k about 5 or 6 years ago.  After 4 years of flailing away, and I did get down to an 18:18, I moved on.  Everything went right that 18:18 day and I told myself a couple of slower attempts afterwards that it's over - make another goal.  So I moved onto longer distances.  And it went well.  Extremely well.  And I signed up for a marathon.  But I felt I needed a break from the slow crawl that is marathon training.  So instead of doing a speed workout one day I did a 5K.  Had no expectations.  And clocked a 17 flat.  Then a month later, despite being in peak marathon training mode and feeling like a slug, one upped it to 16:27.

A half decade of trying to just run fast and I couldn't get faster. Then one year, less than actually, of just increasing volume then BAM - 2 minutes off my time.  On a 5K.

---

Back to the short version - just run, man.  If it sticks and you want to start running faster then you need more miles.
Sigh. 

:tearrollsdowncheek:

 
SFBayDuck said:
:wub:   Heaven, particularly these two pictures.

Hey Duck, did your buddy sign up for RdL?  

One of my friends expressed interest in making the trip, so he's booked and planning to pace me from ~50-75 with my wife picking up at ~75 to the finish.  That's about double what either has ever run on trails.  :thumbup:   :oldunsure:

So, regarding those two specific blocks of miles.  Any insight?  Looks like more climbing during 50-75 than 75-100, and considering 50-75 is likely to be during daylight I'm not overly concerned with that section with my buddy.  But I'm a bit worried about 75-100 with my wife considering it'll be at night (she's done next to no night running and definitely none on trail), a distance in trail miles and vertical that she's never done, on a trail that I have no familiarity with, and with most aid stations being more remote if she were to feel the need to bail out.  This "meat grinder" anything she should be nervous about?  

 
Long run done. Was weird running by pace. Over ran it slightly. 16 1/2 done at 7:30 (166). That's 81% of my max so pretty close to the dead center on Pfitz' s long run strategy.  Felt really good the whole way. 

 
Hang 10 said:
We are too. :popcorn:

As far as the training fatigue, it was pretty brutal for me a couple years ago but you do adapt. That's the whole point. Your body is forced to make some changes that will get you through the long ### race you're training for!

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I really feel locked right now. I want more. I know that it's better that I take things slow but "only" having a 8 mile run this morning and no 2nd or 3rd workouts today has me feeling anxious like I should be doing something. Weird that I'm not enjoying the rest. All I want to do right now is eat and train. 
Got my maiden 20 miles in, feel ok about it. Hardest part was avoiding the tasty microbrews last night at FF draft held at neighborhood brewmasters home bar. Now that's a hobby.

Regarding the run, not sure if I should have slowed it way down to maximize time on feet or not. Considered targeting a 9:30 avg pace. Took first mile slow but was at bottom of MAF range early in mile 2 and was concerned at how quick it occurred in cool temp but was probably partially nerves - ended up sticking in MAF range for about 16miles and tried to finish faster with 8:49 avg at 144 avg HR. Got chicked in my last 2 miles and she didn't even have a good Runnerbutt so that was rough. My feet felt like there was no cushion in my shoes by the last mile.  Drew an awesome weather morning and was well fueled before and somewhat during. Took in about 400 kcals which probably should be higher and will be next time. Confidence builder for sure and room to improve in a few areas.  Not sure if next long one should target more time on feet or shooting for better negative split - would appreciate thoughts and opinions please!  I need to get my #### together during the week and get more miles in between now and taper for sure - slipped down to 4 runs and some shorter stuff mid week after feeling rundown.  

Enjoy the weekend all, heading to a wedding where my dancing will be even more stiff and awkward than normal on jacked legs & wearing compression under a suit.

 
SFBayDuck said:
According to my most recent race time, I should run a 5K at 10:13 pace and a 10K at 10:37.  Now I'm slow, but pretty sure I could do a little better than that.  

Of course plugging in your 100 mile time probably doesn't give the most accurate 5K and 10K results.  I don't think I'd need to stop and puke or get a foot massage from @tri-man 47 during a 10K.
Your runs can't be understood by algorithms. 

 
Interesting race this morning.  Rained pretty heavy overnight so the parking lot/bog/pasture was easy to get into, but a bear to get out of (bunch of cars got stuck)  My time wasn't awful, but it sure wasn't great either.  2,600 people total and I would say 2,200 of them ran the 5k.  It was a good starting point for running more distance again.  I have 1 10k next month that I crashed and burned in last year and my first 15k is October 1. Pretty humid this morning with a light rain in my last mile.  Legs feel pretty good and I know I left a whole lot out there.  Next time will be better.  Can't wait for Florida Fall.

 
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SayWhat? said:
:wub:   Heaven, particularly these two pictures.

Hey Duck, did your buddy sign up for RdL?  

One of my friends expressed interest in making the trip, so he's booked and planning to pace me from ~50-75 with my wife picking up at ~75 to the finish.  That's about double what either has ever run on trails.  :thumbup:   :oldunsure:

So, regarding those two specific blocks of miles.  Any insight?  Looks like more climbing during 50-75 than 75-100, and considering 50-75 is likely to be during daylight I'm not overly concerned with that section with my buddy.  But I'm a bit worried about 75-100 with my wife considering it'll be at night (she's done next to no night running and definitely none on trail), a distance in trail miles and vertical that she's never done, on a trail that I have no familiarity with, and with most aid stations being more remote if she were to feel the need to bail out.  This "meat grinder" anything she should be nervous about?  
He hasn't yet, but he's still training like he's running it.  I know he set the alert on ultrasignup for when it hits 90% capacity.  I'll be up there either way, and happy to help crew you whether he is there or not.  The forest fires in the NW are wreaking havoc on the two fall 100s - Pine 2 Palm could be shortened to 100K, re-routed, or even cancelled, and Cascade Crest was turned into an out and back this weekend instead of the original loop course.  So I think we might see a spike in registrations for RdL in the next couple of weeks, particularly if P2P is shortened or cancelled as RdL and Javelina are basically the last two chances at States qualifiers.

As for the course and pacing, yes the mile 50-75 stretch contains most of the longer climbs, some short steep ones (Goat Hill), and a nice descent down The Luge to No Hands.  That's the section that overlaps with the Way Too Cool and Western States courses, so should be fun for you to be out there.  I'm not as familiar with the final 25 miles, other than pacing it in 2015.  The meat grinder is a bit  of a #####, it's just rocky and all up and down, but nothing sustained at all.  It's also only 4 miles or so, and the rest of that final 25 is pretty runnable from what I remember.  

I've been nervous as a pacer a couple of times, worried about being able to handle the pace, terrain, etc.  My first time at States in 2012, I hadn't run further than a half marathon in three years and had never run at night, but had no problems pacing 18 miles through the night.  And then 2015 at RdL pacing 2:50 marathoner Surf for 36 miles or so beginning in the evening.  But when you have fresh legs and your runner has already run 50-75, combined with the excitement of being a part of a 100 miler, it levels things a bit.  I doubt your buddy or wife will have any issues.  @tri-man 47, any thoughts to add having recently experienced something similar (although you're faster than me, so you probably weren't too worried!).

My big suggestion for you and your wife with night running is to have two light sources - a headlamp and a flashlight.  That lets you keep a light on the trail while still being able to look around, and having the two sources of light really helps with shadows and depth perception.  Plus it gives you a back up if one goes out or malfunctions.

 
Not sure if next long one should target more time on feet or shooting for better negative split - would appreciate thoughts and opinions please!  
From what you posted here and what I saw on Strava, I think you did great!  I'm sure the vast majority of runners don't have enough left in the tank to pick up the pace at the end of their first 20!  Personally I don't think you should slow down next time but, to be sure, you'll continue to get fitter either way.

 
Great long runs, Hang 10 and bushdocda!!!  bushdocda, I was going to recommend a good soak in a cold/ice bath (or at least soak the feet), but I'm sure an active wedding reception with dancing will be totally the same sort of recovery.  

SayWhat?, as Duck notes, pacing someone who already has put in dozens of miles is not too physically taxing, given the easy pace. But running at night on single track trails is an incredibly intense challenge.  You can't zone out and 'just run' at all.  I agree about the two lights.  You and mrs. What? should plan if she will lead and pull you along or follow and push/encourage.  Being a novice at such pacing, I instinctively went with the latter approach ...more of the 'good cop' approach, while Duck's to-the-finish pacer played 'bad cop' and forced Duck (by necessity) to keep charging.

And no foot massages for the 10K distance.  For 10Ks, all I offer are friendly little butt slaps.   

 
Interesting race this morning.  Rained pretty heavy overnight so the parking lot/bog/pasture was easy to get into, but a bear to get out of (bunch of cars got stuck)  My time wasn't awful, but it sure wasn't great either.  2,600 people total and I would say 2,200 of them ran the 5k.  It was a good starting point for running more distance again.  I have 1 10k next month that I crashed and burned in last year and my first 15k is October 1. Pretty humid this morning with a light rain in my last mile.  Legs feel pretty good and I know I left a whole lot out there.  Next time will be better.  Can't wait for Florida Fall.
Pickles for your race!  :pickle: :pickle:

 
Great long runs, Hang 10 and bushdocda!!!  bushdocda, I was going to recommend a good soak in a cold/ice bath (or at least soak the feet), but I'm sure an active wedding reception with dancing will be totally the same sort of recovery.  

SayWhat?, as Duck notes, pacing someone who already has put in dozens of miles is not too physically taxing, given the easy pace. But running at night on single track trails is an incredibly intense challenge.  You can't zone out and 'just run' at all.  I agree about the two lights.  You and mrs. What? should plan if she will lead and pull you along or follow and push/encourage.  Being a novice at such pacing, I instinctively went with the latter approach ...more of the 'good cop' approach, while Duck's to-the-finish pacer played 'bad cop' and forced Duck (by necessity) to keep charging.

And no foot massages for the 10K distance.  For 10Ks, all I offer are friendly little butt slaps.   
:thumbup:

@SayWhat? I know you've run at night, but if the Mrs. hasn't it's probably worth a trial run.  Even if it's just to test out the planned lighting system for both of you, just get out on a trail somewhere with at least a little technicality to it and spend a couple of hours after dark experiencing it.  

Of course that's not what I did before pacing for the first time, but smarter people than me would do so. 

 
:thumbup:

@SayWhat? I know you've run at night, but if the Mrs. hasn't it's probably worth a trial run.  Even if it's just to test out the planned lighting system for both of you, just get out on a trail somewhere with at least a little technicality to it and spend a couple of hours after dark experiencing it.  

Of course that's not what I did before pacing for the first time, but smarter people than me would do so. 
Yep, plenty of night running for me but was kind of thinking may need to get out together with my wife.  Just sucks having to get a sitter so that we can go for a run in the dark.   :D   

Appreciate the feedback guys!  Looking forward to meeting you in California Duck.   :thumbup:

 
Yep, plenty of night running for me but was kind of thinking may need to get out together with my wife.  Just sucks having to get a sitter so that we can go for a run in the dark.   :D   

Appreciate the feedback guys!  Looking forward to meeting you in California Duck.   :thumbup:
Yes, but think of the recovery sechs after the night run.....

 
May have over done it today (we'll see tomorrow) - ran with a buddy early and he was struggling some - I walked with him when he walked and then took off he last .5 mile.  Said I did 3.8 but I know it was long - i think Strava lost me on the trail.  

Anyway - left and took my car to get serviced and they told me it would be about 1:15 until it was ready.  Since I was already in my running gear I decided to just see what I could do.  Ended up doing the other 6.2 to get to 10 total.  Longest run for me in 12 years.

One funny story during my run.  I'm running sidewalks in a pretty busy Atlanta area- lots of folks running/walking and biking.  I haven't been gone long and I get to an intersection and having to wait at the light - as I get to cross there's a bike coming the opposite way stopped at the red light.  He's in the lane with a car behind him and I'm kind of paying attention but not really - as I get to the other side the light changes but the biker doesn't move - I see him looking around on the ground for something.  The car behind him is getting angry so I decide to be a Good Samaritan and head over and yell "did you drop something?"  I can now see that is an older guy, actually pretty old for a biker ok a main road.  He says "yeah, it's dental piece". I look down and the dude dropped his partial denture out on to the ground. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:   I point it out to him and take off running before I start laughing - the car behind him starts waving thanking me for getting this guy out of the way.  

 
Did my first tri this morning, the Chicago Tri, international distance.  Its a 0.93 mile swim, 24.8 mile bike and 6.2 mile run.  The whole reason I did it was because back in December one of my best friends said he was going to do it, and after a few pops, I told him I could beat him.  So we bet a nice bottle of whiskey.  My training was really weak since I am on the road at least half the time for work so I couldnt swim at all on the road and could only ride a stationary bike which is much different.  Training for running, which should have been my best part, was no existent because Ive been dealing with what I think is plantar faccisitis and havent been able to walk without a limp for 2 months (im going to doctor this week, wanted to wait til after race). Race went pretty well for my first attempt and all things considered.  

0.93 mile swim - 27:14 (242 out of 3,039) - Ive never swam a race before in my life so really didnt know what to expect in terms of running into people.  When we got into the water I was near the front, so figured I'd go out fast to get away from people.  Seemed like a good idea for first 100 yards, then I couldnt breathe.  I was going to fast and my breathing got messed up.  I actually considered giving up there.  But I took about 20 second, composed myself, and got in a good rhythm.  Really happy with finish considering I bought my first wetsuit 3 months ago.  

Transition 1 - 6:24 (1013 out of 3039) out of the water, 4-500 yard run while taking off wetsuit and then changing into biking stuff.  I probably should have practiced this but never got around to it.  top guys were out in like 3:20

24.8 mile bike - 1:14:18 (854 out of 3039) - This was the part going in I was most worried about.  I was riding a 1983 Fuji bike with no clip ins that I bought on craigslist 5 years ago for like $150.  Has a little rust, but its a great commuter bike.  I didnt want to invest $2500+ into a bike not knowing if I would continue to do these and I also didnt want to learn to clip in unless I was going to get serious.  I certainly got passed by people, but only people on $2500+ bikes and who were clipped in.  Even got a few comments as people passed me "nice bike" with a smile and as I passed others "you just passed me on a bike older than me".  That one made me feel good.  Average speed was 20.03 mph.  On that bike ill take that every day of the week

Transition 2 - 1:50 (155 out of 3039) - I already had my running shoes on, but I still wasted time packing up my bag and not knowing where to put everything.

6.2 mile run - 53:14 (1133 out of 3039) - what a disappointment this was.  8:34 a mile, I wanted to be under 7:30 but I just couldnt get my foot to loosen up.  Each stride was painful, and on top of it my stomach wasnt feeling right, which was weird since at no time during training nor during any previous run ive done did it hurt.  The only thing I could think of was at the race expo a guy recommended a powder to put in my water bottle on the bike.  Guy was a big time iron man competition and swore by it.  So I did it.  My buddy also did and felt the same stomach cramps and never had them before either.  Probably shouldn't have tried something for the first time on race day.  Before training I said that running would be my best by far, but in this race it was by far my worst.  Super frustrating.   I ended up walking at least a mile between all the times I had to walk.  This will bother me until I crush this time next year  :D

overall 2:42:58 (581 out of 3039 overall.   519 out of 2,084 males.  66 out of 274 aged 35-39) - was really hoping for top 500, but whatever.  Was a great expierence and Im likely to do it again next year.  For now im laying in bed icing my ankle which is throbbing. 

 
The only thing I could think of was at the race expo a guy recommended a powder to put in my water bottle on the bike.  Guy was a big time iron man competition and swore by it.  So I did it.  My buddy also did and felt the same stomach cramps and never had them before either.  Probably shouldn't have tried something for the first time on race day.  
The first rule of Race Day is NOTHING NEW ON RACE DAY!

Other than that, and considering your foot issues, congrats!

 
Did my first tri this morning, the Chicago Tri, international distance.  

overall 2:42:58 
I've done focused training for this same race (also on a mediocre bike) and ended up with the same time.  For your limited training and first tri, that's fantastic!!!  Way to go.  You're a strong competitor to put up those sorts of tri-splits.   :clap: :pickle: :clap:

 
Hey, look, a training report!  After a crappy month of very inconsistent training and too-busy life, I feel like I'm back in my routines again.  Semi-targeting a small, local 5K on Saturday, 9/16.

M:  4 miles w/ 1 mi @ 7:01, 800m @ 6:34 pace, 2 x 400m @ 6:07, 6:20

T:  8 miles

W:  30 burpees am; 150 push-ups pm

Th: 30 burpees (3 x 10)

F:  dumbbells

S:  9 miles w/ 4 miles @ 8:00/mile; 4 extra 'hill' repeats

S:  4 miles w/ 8 x 400m.  Pacing mostly ~6:10/mile, but couple late reps at 6:00, 5:58

Just 25 miles for the week, but encouraging (given the heel spur) to have two back-to-back workouts.  Haven't done that in several months.  Pacing isn't great, but I'm pushing the speed work when I should just be building base.

 

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