Ran a 10k - Official Thread (10 Viewers)

[gianmarco]

Low cadence at high speeds would mean he is an extremely powerful runner, correct? Before I posted my video and @tri-man 47 instructed me to lean forward more, I had a really high cadence. Usually around 180-190 and got into the 210-220 range with speed. Ever since I have incorporated activating my glutes and hamstrings by leaning forward, my cadence has dropped significantly. I have noticed that my slow runs are no longer in the 9:00s or even the 8:00s for that matter. Every time I see @MAC_32’s cadence, I assume he runs like a damn sprinter. 

Yeah, I would think so. It would mean huge strides and the fact he can hold that for a long time means powerful/efficient leg muscles and drive.

Which also might mean if he can increase his cadence, he could unlock a whole other level of badassery.

 

[MAC_32]

I can't wait to see if your cadence is really 160 at your speeds.

I noticed that it went to 165-170 during peak fall training. So the app may still be wrong, but at least it changed with my fitness. 

 

[Zasada]

Yeah, I would think so. It would mean huge strides and the fact he can hold that for a long time means powerful/efficient leg muscles and drive.

Which also might mean if he can increase his cadence, he could unlock a whole other level of badassery.

I'm a fairly high-cadence runner because I read once that low cadence runners expend too much energy on upward forces instead of forward forces.  So, right from the start of my running, I focused on short strides and high turnover.  On my most recent race, an athlete I respect observed that I was a very "smooth" runner.  Probably because of my short strides.

Is this the right way to be thinking about things?

 

[ChiefD]

Are you doing the Hanson HM plan and jumping ahead a few weeks?  I've been looking over several plans but the Hanson plan looks to have more weekly miles than I can likely do.

The first month of Hanson is basically low mileage weeks, which is what I have doing for awhile. So my speed workouts started this week. Basically next week is when the rubber meets the road as I count down to race day.

The whole purpose of Hanson is running on fatigued legs. Cumulative fatigue.

But I am not sure I will be able to complete every workout this cycle. I have this nagging core injury that I have to be careful with, so I may add an extra rest day a week. I'm going to try not to, but may be forced to.

So I think for you, it would be ok to take the principles of Hanson and adjust if necessary. Life does get in the way, so we do the best we can. 

 

[ChiefD]

I'm a fairly high-cadence runner because I read once that low cadence runners expend too much energy on upward forces instead of forward forces.  So, right from the start of my running, I focused on short strides and high turnover.  On my most recent race, an athlete I respect observed that I was a very "smooth" runner.  Probably because of my short strides.

Is this the right way to be thinking about things?

I'm high cadence too. It's like I'm dancing on air.

I embrace it. 

 

[gianmarco]

I'm a fairly high-cadence runner because I read once that low cadence runners expend too much energy on upward forces instead of forward forces.  So, right from the start of my running, I focused on short strides and high turnover.  On my most recent race, an athlete I respect observed that I was a very "smooth" runner.  Probably because of my short strides.

Is this the right way to be thinking about things?

From everything I've read elsewhere as well as discussion here, higher cadence is generally a good thing. Lower energy expenditure, less ground contact time all leads to less injury and better efficiency. @SteelCurtain is our resident roadrunner when it comes to high cadence. 

I made a change to higher cadence at one point and it certainly seemed to make a difference.

However, when I had to slow down significantly for MAF training, my cadence dropped back down. Higher cadence at those speeds was leading to higher HR. So now I'm back to 168-170 which is where I started and what my natural cadence is. I may try going back to a higher cadence at some point but not now. I feel good at this cadence right now and I don't want to focus on changing too many things at once. I think higher cadence is harder for those of us that are taller, but in general, higher cadence is going to be more beneficial than lower.

 

[xulf]

The first month of Hanson is basically low mileage weeks, which is what I have doing for awhile. So my speed workouts started this week. Basically next week is when the rubber meets the road as I count down to race day.

The whole purpose of Hanson is running on fatigued legs. Cumulative fatigue.

But I am not sure I will be able to complete every workout this cycle. I have this nagging core injury that I have to be careful with, so I may add an extra rest day a week. I'm going to try not to, but may be forced to.

So I think for you, it would be ok to take the principles of Hanson and adjust if necessary. Life does get in the way, so we do the best we can. 

It sure looks like Hanson will get you in top shape for the race.  Tons of miles and I know that worked for you this last time around 

I like the longer long runs of Hanson vs Hal Higdon (which the local running group uses a modified version of and my wife will use) but the miles of the 2nd half of HH are much more in line with what I want (the first half is too low).  I'll probably try and mix the two and see what happens and adjust as needed.

 

[ChiefD]

It sure looks like Hanson will get you in top shape for the race.  Tons of miles and I know that worked for you this last time around 

I like the longer long runs of Hanson vs Hal Higdon (which the local running group uses a modified version of and my wife will use) but the miles of the 2nd half of HH are much more in line with what I want (the first half is too low).  I'll probably try and mix the two and see what happens and adjust as needed.

I used Higdon almost all the time until I switched to Hanson for the marathon cycle this time last year.

For me, I needed Hanson to push me. Plus, the speed and strength workouts were pretty specific on exactly what I needed to do. And really, the mileage too. I took it as gospel:

Run this on this day and you will be prepared

And it worked for me.

 

[Juxtatarot]

From everything I've read elsewhere as well as discussion here, higher cadence is generally a good thing. Lower energy expenditure, less ground contact time all leads to less injury and better efficiency. @SteelCurtain is our resident roadrunner when it comes to high cadence. 

I made a change to higher cadence at one point and it certainly seemed to make a difference.

However, when I had to slow down significantly for MAF training, my cadence dropped back down. Higher cadence at those speeds was leading to higher HR. So now I'm back to 168-170 which is where I started and what my natural cadence is. I may try going back to a higher cadence at some point but not now. I feel good at this cadence right now and I don't want to focus on changing too many things at once. I think higher cadence is harder for those of us that are taller, but in general, higher cadence is going to be more beneficial than lower.

I like to think of it as a spectrum.  If you go overboard in one direction taking the teeniest-tiniest steps possible, that's going to be bad.  Additionally, if you are leaping as far as you can each step like a triple-jumper, that's going to be bad too.  Exactly where you should be in the middle likely depends on the individual.  

That said, over-striding can be a problem leading to inefficiencies and injuries.  I'm sure the more common problem for new runners is over-striding rather than under-striding, thus, we read the common advice about increasing cadence.

You posted a link to an article once about a guy that uses cadence to measure when he's fatigued.  Basically the idea is if his cadence is high for a given pace it means he's fatigued and lacking power.  It tells him he needs to focus on strengthening more.  I think about that comment a lot.

It make sense that a muscularly-strong runner like Mac is going to have longer strides than a more muscularly challenged runner like Zasada or me.  I've tried to active my glutes and get more power with each step.  I've even watched Youtube videos demonstrating it.  However, nothing seems to happen when I try.

Also about me personally, I noticed that my cadence went down when I was getting over calves/Achilles problems.  I think that was due to being stronger/less hurt in that area and having more power with each step.  I think that helped with some of my successes in 2018. 

 

[gruecd]

Man, all you guys overthinking/overanalyzing HR, cadence, foot strike, oxidation (really?)...

For the most part, I just run. 

 

[tri-man 47]

Man, all you guys overthinking/overanalyzing HR, cadence, foot strike, oxidation (really?)...

For the most part, I just run. 

Well if you ever hope to run sub-3:00 marathons, you're going to have to deal wi ...oh, wait.  Nevermind.

 

[MAC_32]

Man, all you guys overthinking/overanalyzing HR, cadence, foot strike, oxidation (really?)...

For the most part, I just run. 

Agreed, I think offseason tinkering can yield benefits, but in small doses and if it doesn't work then bag the idea. Your form is your form - it is your own unique baseline. There's such a thing an information overload though. It's why I still don't have a hr monitor and only started monitoring cadence last year. And I promise oxidation will never enter the rotation. 

 

[gruecd]

Agreed, I think offseason tinkering can yield benefits, but in small doses and if it doesn't work then bag the idea. Your form is your form - it is your own unique baseline. There's such a thing an information overload though. It's why I still don't have a hr monitor and only started monitoring cadence last year. And I promise oxidation will never enter the rotation. 

What's this "offseason" of which you speak?

 

[The Iguana]

Man, all you guys overthinking/overanalyzing HR, cadence, foot strike, oxidation (really?)...

For the most part, I just run. 

I sort of started it but all I just making a "look at me" comparison of how far I've come in a year...

 

[Juxtatarot]

I like learning about and discussing the technical stuff even if I run the same old way.

 

[-OZ-]

Well that was interesting

Lifted this morning, felt great

Looked at my watch after work, apparently I did a 9 hour workout.  hit the new gym after work, I'm enjoying the scenery on rainy days.

 

[SteelCurtain]

2019 SteelCurtain Year-end Report

Your goals coming into the year, and were they achieved?

1.     Marathon PR and BQ – Achieved.  I shaved 2+ minutes off my marathon PR.

2.     Pace more marathons – Achieved.  I paced 3 marathons (3:40, 3:45, 3:50) and 1 half (1:40) marathon.

3.     PR at the half marathon distance – I didn’t attempt it.  My work, family, health and race schedule never really gave me the opportunity to make a true attempt.

4.     Run 2500 miles – I’m currently at 2, 236 miles so I won’t make it, mostly due to a bum hip I’m trying to nurse back to health.

5.     Run another ultra marathon – didn’t attempt it.  Just not enough time and I was afraid my wife would kill me.

New accomplishments or PRs in 2019:

  I PRed in the marathon at Indianapolis.  Taking my 3:15:00 marathon PR down to 3:12:43.

Your proudest and/or best race (or moment within a race):

  I’m proud I went for it in Boston this year. Boston is a really hard course to PR and I tried.  Of course, I failed, but my training cycle was my strongest ever, but Mother Nature wasn’t kind with heat and humidity.  I ultimately ran a 3:16:41. 

I’m really proud of my marathon PR.  I ran nearly identical splits.  1:36:23 first half and 1:36:20 second half. I finished strong and it was a truly great experience.

A race or training disappointment during 2019:

  I’m dealing with a bad hip right now.  I’ve been pretty healthy through my tenure, but I think I pushed it too hard this fall.  So I’m trying to stay active and let it heal itself.  I am heading to PT next week.

I was initially really bummed about Boston but after talking with others, I realized I actually managed the heat better than most.

Total training volume during 2019:

  2,236 miles….Second highest ever for me but much lower than 2018 (3,194 miles).

Lesson(s) you’ve learned during the year:

  I really found that starting slowly in my marathon for the first few miles paid off for me. I am going to continue to try this in future marathons.

Best and/or funny memories of other guys’ training or races in 2019:

·       I really enjoyed the relay.  Fun to watch the camaraderie that was formed during that weekend.

·       Anytime someone runs a 100 mile race, its always amazing watching, stalking, sharing throughout the day and into the night and the next morning about what is happening.  So inspiring.

·       The build up to Carmel was very cool with multiple guys racing.  Fun day!

·       @tri-man 47's Marine Corps Marathon.  Such respect for the guy and in those conditions, very cool to watch him persevere and place in his AG in such a large race.

  Reflections on this past year:

1.     I wish I was able to join the group for that relay race and hopefully this summer works.  (I'll confirm shortly)

2.     Anyone who does an ultra is pretty crazy to me, especially those 100 mile mofo’s @SFBayDuck, @BassNBrew, @SayWhat? and anyone else crazy enough to do that distance.

3.     With all due respect to the speedy guys in this thread, but I love to watch people start their journey and make strides be in starting running @Otis, @belljr or distance @gianmarco, @Zasada, @xulf, @The Iguana (if there are others I missed, I’m sincerely sorry)

4.     Always special when life allows us to get together in real life. I was blessed to see @gruecd in Boston and then again in Indy with @The Iguana. When I was in Chicago for work, I grabbed dinner with @tri-man 47, @Brony, and @Juxtatarot.

5.     Special shoutout to @Brony. For all he has battled physically, he keeps at it and stays engaged in here.  Such a good guy and really hope there is some break through for him which allows him to run pain free for a year.  It would be fun to watch him train. I’d be his biggest cheerleader.

Goal(s) for 2020:

My goodness, I’m not really sure.  I’ll be honest that I’m contemplating giving up hard racing and just do pacing and try a year or two of just easy runs and ultras.

I’m just not sure that change would be enough for me and will I lose some of that camaraderie on Strava when I’m not really training for a specific race?  Stupid?  Maybe, but I’ve met some wonderful people through the people who follow me.

So for my goals, I’ll state are as follows:

1.     Get healthy!

2.     Qualify for Boston 2022 (I already have my BQ for 2021)

3.     Get a marathon PR this fall (eyeing Chicago as my goal race, but will register for Indy as a back up if weather or life don’t cooperate with Chicago).

4.     I want to qualify for New York City Marathon for 2021. This will require a 3:14 or 1:32 half sometime in 2020 since I’ll be 50 years old on race day.

5.     Run another ultra (At least a 50 miler)

6.     Break 1:30 in the half marathon

7.     Pace at least 2 marathons (going to do Miami and I’ll find at least one more)

8.    Run 2500 miles.  @MAC_32 and I are committed to eclipsing that mileage.

 

[JShare87]

Looking for some thoughts on my training the next 3 weeks.

I signed up for a marathon near Orlando on January 26th. I started a training cycle around November and was going pretty good until I tore/pulled my hamstring on Thanksgiving. Since then, I haven’t been logging a bunch of miles. I’d say somewhere around the 30 MPW mark. I have been trying to make at least 2 of the runs quality runs. My body just can’t handle running on back-to-back days right now. I’ve been running every other day and it seems to be working. My VO2 Max is back to its highest. My HR and fitness are close to an all-time best. So with 3 weeks left, I’m trying to see how to get the most ready for the marathon.

I haven’t decided if I’m going to “race” it, or treat it as a 26.2 mile long progressionish run. That depends on the weather and how I’m feeling the day of the race. I do however want to be prepared to race it if all goes according to plan. Ran a recovery 3 yesterday and an easy @pbm107 6 today. 26 miles total for the week so far. The weather is going to be amazing tomorrow, so I’ll be doing some sort of workout. This is where I’m looking for advice.

Most training plans I’ve seen usually call for speed or VO2 Max workouts towards the end. I’m fine with doing that but just want to know if I should do another long run with MP miles. A tempo run with 6-8 miles at 15K pace. A long progression run, similar to what @gruecd was doing. Looking for a best bang for my buck workout with 3 weeks from my marathon. Would also appreciate any advice on how to approach the remaining 3 weeks. I’d like to somewhat stick to running every other day or close to it in order to recover. 
 

 

[gianmarco]

@JShare87

I don't have advice for what you're looking for, but just wanted to say you are one BMF and hope things fall in place for you the next 3 weeks culminating on an awesome race day.

P.S. -- All those MAF runs you did with me paid off

 

[ChiefD]

Looking for some thoughts on my training the next 3 weeks.

I signed up for a marathon near Orlando on January 26th. I started a training cycle around November and was going pretty good until I tore/pulled my hamstring on Thanksgiving. Since then, I haven’t been logging a bunch of miles. I’d say somewhere around the 30 MPW mark. I have been trying to make at least 2 of the runs quality runs. My body just can’t handle running on back-to-back days right now. I’ve been running every other day and it seems to be working. My VO2 Max is back to its highest. My HR and fitness are close to an all-time best. So with 3 weeks left, I’m trying to see how to get the most ready for the marathon.

I haven’t decided if I’m going to “race” it, or treat it as a 26.2 mile long progressionish run. That depends on the weather and how I’m feeling the day of the race. I do however want to be prepared to race it if all goes according to plan. Ran a recovery 3 yesterday and an easy @pbm107 6 today. 26 miles total for the week so far. The weather is going to be amazing tomorrow, so I’ll be doing some sort of workout. This is where I’m looking for advice.

Most training plans I’ve seen usually call for speed or VO2 Max workouts towards the end. I’m fine with doing that but just want to know if I should do another long run with MP miles. A tempo run with 6-8 miles at 15K pace. A long progression run, similar to what @gruecd was doing. Looking for a best bang for my buck workout with 3 weeks from my marathon. Would also appreciate any advice on how to approach the remaining 3 weeks. I’d like to somewhat stick to running every other day or close to it in order to recover. 
 

I see no issue with some faster runs the next few weeks. The Hanson plan had me running speed and strength runs the week before the marathon. 

Maybe a progression type run like you mentioned would be a good idea. Also, if you are going for a longer run, this may be a good day to practice race day nutrition. Not sure if you are still adding fuel during runs, but you've talked before of not taking much, if anything, on race day.

 

[JShare87]

@JShare87

I don't have advice for what you're looking for, but just wanted to say you are one BMF and hope things fall in place for you the next 3 weeks culminating on an awesome race day.

P.S. -- All those MAF runs you did with me paid off

Thank you! That’s what I’m hoping for. Think I have a strong enough base to pull this off despite the lack of high mileage weeks during this cycle. 

 

[tri-man 47]

@JShare87 - I’d lean toward a long (as possible) run with as much slightly sub-marathon pace as you can handle.  With the slightly limited training, that would be a real quality workout that reinforces your confidence (and/or gives you a realistic benchmark for race day).  As you’ve suggested, this could be done as a progressive run as you increase the speed.  Then, with 3 weeks to go, you could slip in some speed work (intervals) during two or three workouts before resting up for the event.  But most of all, stay healthy so you can give a full effort on race day!

 

[bushdocda]

@JShare87 What workouts and long runs would you have in the next week or 2 after tomorrow?  I am assuming you will be doing a shortish taper of 7-10 days so, in that context, you’ll have a few more workouts that you’ll want to manage/optimize and minimize aggravating leg/back or allow it to calm down during taper.  Alternating days and workout/easy sounds wise. 
If tomorrow is last longer/longest run, I like the long progression idea as you can include some shorter uptempo stuff pre taper.

Glad you have your one day of amazing weather coming tomorrow.  

 

[bushdocda]

@tri-man 47  

 

[xulf]

I need to figure out something with my feet.  They are always in some pain, which is manageable with stretching them and my calves, rolling my calves, and using a golf ball to roll my feet.  However, they are not accommodating to increased milage which always causes painful flare ups.

I'm currently dealing with plantar fasciitis (again) on my left foot along with some pain on the outside.  It was terrible after my run on Thursday (walking with a bad limp), bad yesterday (but improving), and okish feeling today (but still cant run).  I've had this issue on both feet more than once - it always seems to go away after a few days of treatment but it is super frustrating and painful.

This is my first instance of it since getting my feet evaluated and getting new shoes and an insert (off the shelf) in late November.  The timing of the new shoes also coincides with increasing my cadence which may or may not mean anything.

I'm wondering if I need something custom and if I should be seeing a doctor about this.  I have high arches, and differently shaped/width/length feet which I'm sure doesnt help.

Anyone deal with anything like this and have been able to remedy? 

 

[belljr]

Slowed it down a little today as not to over exert myself. No plan just other to run 3 miles.

Chest felt better. My 1st big milestone is to do 3 miles in 30 minutes.

I'll get there. Feeling better with the slower run

 

[bushdocda]

I need to figure out something with my feet.  They are always in some pain, which is manageable with stretching them and my calves, rolling my calves, and using a golf ball to roll my feet.  However, they are not accommodating to increased milage which always causes painful flare ups.

I'm currently dealing with plantar fasciitis (again) on my left foot along with some pain on the outside.  It was terrible after my run on Thursday (walking with a bad limp), bad yesterday (but improving), and okish feeling today (but still cant run).  I've had this issue on both feet more than once - it always seems to go away after a few days of treatment but it is super frustrating and painful.

This is my first instance of it since getting my feet evaluated and getting new shoes and an insert (off the shelf) in late November.  The timing of the new shoes also coincides with increasing my cadence which may or may not mean anything.

I'm wondering if I need something custom and if I should be seeing a doctor about this.  I have high arches, and differently shaped/width/length feet which I'm sure doesnt help.

Anyone deal with anything like this and have been able to remedy? 

I use a spikey ball or golf ball pretty regularly but it’s more to relieve tension and aches.   Inserts and stuff like that are sometimes necessary but can crutch/ mask other areas to address. The trick is getting to knowing if you need inserts or if it’s better addressed upstream with ankle and balance/proprioception work.  I’d work on the latter and also focus on finding shoes with stability/support for most runs and some of that easy run stuff too. 

 

[gianmarco]

I use a spikey ball or golf ball pretty regularly but it’s more to relieve tension and aches.   Inserts and stuff like that are sometimes necessary but can crutch/ mask other areas to address. The trick is getting to knowing if you need inserts or if it’s better addressed upstream with ankle and balance/proprioception work.  I’d work on the latter and also focus on finding shoes with stability/support for most runs and some of that easy run stuff too. 

I was going to say the same. I remember reading a while ago that it's very rare someone needs inserts and they can cause problems. Getting the right shoe is more important.

 

[The Iguana]

1st in my age group this morning. 16th overall. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

Slowed it down a little today as not to over exert myself. No plan just other to run 3 miles.

Chest felt better. My 1st big milestone is to do 3 miles in 30 minutes.

I'll get there. Feeling better with the slower run

Yeah, I think slowing it down is the way to go.  Focus on time out there instead of distance for a while.

 

[Juxtatarot]

1st in my age group this morning. 16th overall. 

Congrats! I’m looking forward to seeing that gold medal on your Athlinks page!

 

[xulf]

I use a spikey ball or golf ball pretty regularly but it’s more to relieve tension and aches.   Inserts and stuff like that are sometimes necessary but can crutch/ mask other areas to address. The trick is getting to knowing if you need inserts or if it’s better addressed upstream with ankle and balance/proprioception work.  I’d work on the latter and also focus on finding shoes with stability/support for most runs and some of that easy run stuff too. 

I was going to say the same. I remember reading a while ago that it's very rare someone needs inserts and they can cause problems. Getting the right shoe is more important.

Thanks for the replies 

Ive read the same thing you guys are saying about the inserts and I have also seen that they are necessary.  And, of course there is thoughts that going minimalist will fix it and other thoughts that it will break your feet.  The shoe lady suggested the insert based off my feet 3D model...so I went with it. 

I have had some tight feeling ankles recently, so I'm thinking I'll ditch the inserts and do some proprioception work.  I'm also going to hit up the other running store and see if they have some different thoughts and shoe recommendations.

@gianmarco you are high arched if I remember correctly and I've seen you talk highly of your shoes.  With the high arches do you supinate? And if so, do you find your shoes supportive for that?  They really only had me try on a Hoka and a New Balance since I also have a fatter front of my foot and narrow heel which they accommodate...I'm just looking for some other possibilities to try.

 

[xulf]

1st in my age group this morning. 16th overall. 

Awesome job Iggy 

 

[gianmarco]

Thanks for the replies 

Ive read the same thing you guys are saying about the inserts and I have also seen that they are necessary.  And, of course there is thoughts that going minimalist will fix it and other thoughts that it will break your feet.  The shoe lady suggested the insert based off my feet analysys...so I went with it. 

I have had some tight feeling ankles recently, so I'm thinking I'll ditch the inserts and do some proprioception work.  I'm also going to hit up the other running store and see if they have some different thoughts and shoe recommendations.

@gianmarco you are high arched if I remember correctly and I've seen you talk highly of your shoes.  With the high arches do you supinate? And if so, do you find your shoes supportive for that?  They really only had me try on a Hoka and a New Balance since I also have a fatter front of my foot and narrow heel which they accommodate...I'm just looking for some other possibilities to try.

Yes, I have high arches. I'm sure I supinate. We should use neutral shoes which the Kinvara is. I've had 0 issues wearing the shoe as is, find it incredibly light and comfortable with good support. 

I would suggest giving it a try. If you buy from Running Warehouse, you have 90 days to try and can return even if you use them. 

The only thing I would note is that I started with Kinvara 8 (loved it), then Kinvara 9 (loved it even more), and just started using my Kinvara 10. I don't like the 10 as much. It feels less supportive to me and it also feels like it's bigger at the same size than the others. I have one last pair of 9s that I just took out to rotate with the 10 and I definitely like it better. However, I also know @bushdocda seemed to like the 10 the best, so YMMV.

The 10s are on sale for $79.95 at Running Warehouse and you can search for coupon codes to get 10-15% off on top of that.  

The other shoe I've used that was comfortable was the Nike Pegasus 34, but that shoe was significantly heavier and had a higher drop if I remember correctly. I never bought another pair as I always preferred the Saucony Kinvara.

ETA -- I tried on Hoka when I first started and didn't like it at all. I also tried a pair of @gruecd New Balance Zantes that he loves from Running Warehouse and ended up sending those back after a week. Hated them. 

Also, I would definitely avoid a minimalist shoe.

 

[bushdocda]

Yes, I have high arches. I'm sure I supinate. We should use neutral shoes which the Kinvara is. I've had 0 issues wearing the shoe as is, find it incredibly light and comfortable with good support. 

I would suggest giving it a try. If you buy from Running Warehouse, you have 90 days to try and can return even if you use them. 

The only thing I would note is that I started with Kinvara 8 (loved it), then Kinvara 9 (loved it even more), and just started using my Kinvara 10. I don't like the 10 as much. It feels less supportive to me and it also feels like it's bigger at the same size than the others. I have one last pair of 9s that I just took out to rotate with the 10 and I definitely like it better. However, I also know @bushdocda seemed to like the 10 the best, so YMMV.

The 10s are on sale for $79.95 at Running Warehouse and you can search for coupon codes to get 10-15% off on top of that.  

The other shoe I've used that was comfortable was the Nike Pegasus 34, but that shoe was significantly heavier and had a higher drop if I remember correctly. I never bought another pair as I always preferred the Saucony Kinvara.

ETA -- I tried on Hoka when I first started and didn't like it at all. I also tried a pair of @gruecd New Balance Zantes that he loves from Running Warehouse and ended up sending those back after a week. Hated them. 

Also, I would definitely avoid a minimalist shoe.

Still true!  Despite all my whoring with faster lighter race shoes that I still need to put to use, I still mostly roll the K10s and Freedom2s. I alternated them most of 2019 and will get the new Kinvara11s in feb and see about new freedoms or get another of the 2s. They keep me at 4mm drop and are more supportive than described IMO. Great combo for me. 

 

[gianmarco]

Still true!  Despite all my whoring with faster lighter race shoes that I still need to put to use, I still mostly roll the K10s and Freedom2s. I alternated them most of 2019 and will get the new Kinvara11s in feb and see about new freedoms or get another of the 2s. They keep me at 4mm drop and are more supportive than described IMO. Great combo for me. 

I haven't tried the Freedom2s.  How do they compare?

 

[MAC_32]

@JShare87 - I’d lean toward a long (as possible) run with as much slightly sub-marathon pace as you can handle.  With the slightly limited training, that would be a real quality workout that reinforces your confidence (and/or gives you a realistic benchmark for race day).  As you’ve suggested, this could be done as a progressive run as you increase the speed.  Then, with 3 weeks to go, you could slip in some speed work (intervals) during two or three workouts before resting up for the event.  But most of all, stay healthy so you can give a full effort on race day!

Probably this, but my fence riding stems from my memory telling me this is not your goal race. If it isn't then resting up pre race is probably counter productive. You're gonna lose a lot of time if you prepare to race this and recover. By the time you're ready to prep for the next race you'll be in the same spot you are now and wouldn't have done much in between to improve your fitness. 

Cliff notes- set your priorities now and your questions will be answered. 

 

[bushdocda]

I haven't tried the Freedom2s.  How do they compare?

They are more cushiony but still neutral 4mm and not heavy as many more cushiony shoes tend to be.  Work as a great complement for me, on 2nd pair. I think the next version is coming in fed also so could see a further price drop in the 2s. 

 

[Brony]

1st in my age group this morning. 16th overall. 

That's awesome!  What are you going to spend all that prize money on? 

 

[xulf]

They are more cushiony but still neutral 4mm and not heavy as many more cushiony shoes tend to be.  Work as a great complement for me, on 2nd pair. I think the next version is coming in fed also so could see a further price drop in the 2s. 

Do any of these come in wides? Not seeing it on their site 

 

[bushdocda]

Do any of these come in wides? Not seeing it on their site 

Not sure, give the shoe adviser thing on site a try. I bet they have Wides in a handful of offerings. 

 

[gianmarco]

Do any of these come in wides? Not seeing it on their site 

You and I have very similarly shaped feet overall even though your ball girth is slightly larger, I'm ok with that.

The only thing I noticed on your scan compared to mine is your right ball width is listed as "wide" while your left foot is normal.  Nothing else about your scan suggests you need a wide shoe.  The only other thing, which must suck for you, is that you have almost a full size difference between your right and left foot. 

I wonder if you should try the shoe out in the regular width and see how it feels. 

But, it's almost as if you need 2 pairs of shoes.  Size 12s for your left foot in normal width (D) and size 11s for your right foot in wide (E). 

 

[gruecd]

So how do I sign up for this relay?

 

[gianmarco]

So how do I sign up for this relay?

Oops, forgot to post here.  I heard back from the director and yeah, no deadline for the rest of you to sign up.  I think we have our 6 with @gruecd in and a couple solid maybes.  Unless there's any protest, the roster looks like this:

@gianmarco

@tri-man 47

@The Iguana

@gruecd

@Zasada (80%?)

@SteelCurtain (yes but needs to ask the boss later on)

Is that correct? 

We should make an alternate list to fill in in case someone from that list can't make it.

You guys will just go here and sign up:  https://gostlouis.org/events/mississippi-running-festival/

Team name:  RF;DBAP (it can be changed)

Password:  shovel

 

[xulf]

You and I have very similarly shaped feet overall even though your ball girth is slightly larger, I'm ok with that.

The only thing I noticed on your scan compared to mine is your right ball width is listed as "wide" while your left foot is normal.  Nothing else about your scan suggests you need a wide shoe.  The only other thing, which must suck for you, is that you have almost a full size difference between your right and left foot. 

I wonder if you should try the shoe out in the regular width and see how it feels. 

But, it's almost as if you need 2 pairs of shoes.  Size 12s for your left foot in normal width (D) and size 11s for your right foot in wide (E). 

Yeah, my feet suck!  I have messed around with heel pads for the right one and/or wearing a second sock.  The biggest issue is the heel slipping.

I will try out the normal width shoes.  My right ball-width spills out of my  normal width Hoka Rincons which is very uncomfortable ...but looking, those apparently run narrow so a normal may be doable.  

I really dont want to buy 2 pairs of shoes, but I would do/pay just about anything if I could eliminate like 90% of these issues.

 

[SFBayDuck]

2019 Year-end Report

Goal(s) for 2020:

Over the last two years, I've achieved all of my goals, which is proof that I'm not setting goals which are enough of a challenge, so in that spirit, here are a few harder ones for this coming year:

• Complete a 100K Ultra (double my current best race distance)
  
  Miwok will be the first attempt, but I'm leaving myself open to a fall option as well (in the event Miwok doesn't go well)
  

[*]Complete the Grand Canyon R2R2R

[*]Climb Prairie Mountain in 42 minutes or less

[*]Finish the 29K Moose Mountain trail race in <4 hours

[*]Complete 25 pushups in succession (can't do a single one now!)

Note the strength goal!  I bought a weight bench and some weights so that I can incorporate some of that training into things.  

It's been said many times in these summaries, but I have to say it again:  You guys are awesome.  I have discovered so much about myself and what I can do because of your advice and stories here.  Thank you for sharing your achievements.  I hope to meet you in-person in 2020 so that I can thank you myself. 

You had a hell of a year, it's been fun to follow along.  And R2R2R is on my list for the next couple of years as well, and I think @gruecd has talked about that.

I do sense a lot of doubt in you regarding Miwok.  Is that just self-deprecating, or real?  With what you've done in the marathon, a 50K, and all the elevation you do I have no doubts you'll do well there.  The only "unknown" for you will be the hydration and nutrition, so along with what you're already doing and planning to do will be the need to try and dial that in.  

You guys are always welcome if you ever want to experience Calgary/Banff.  The trails are awesome, and our summers can be very nice.  16-hour days in June.  The wife and I have a 4-bedroom house for just the two of us, so plenty of space.  UltraGuys might enjoy the Sinister 7, from what I hear it's an ###-kicker of a race!  I hope to try it someday.

I'd love to take you up on this soon, Sinister 7 related or not.

 

[SFBayDuck]

2019 SteelCurtain Year-end Report

Your goals coming into the year, and were they achieved?

2.     Pace more marathons – Achieved.  I paced 3 marathons (3:40, 3:45, 3:50) and 1 half (1:40) marathon.

This is one of the coolest things going on here.  

 

[SFBayDuck]

Just like in racing, I'm back of the pack for my 2019 Year-end Report.  I worked on this pool side for a bit while recovering from that Rose Bowl hangover, finally finishing it up today.

Your goals coming into the year, and were they achieved?

 2018 Year-end Report

Goal(s) for 2019:

1.  The only treadmill I ever get on is the seemingly never-ending lottery cycle for Western States and Hardrock.  I've got a qualifier for HR already (each lasts 2 years), so the #1 goal for the year is to get my States qualifier.  Miwok 100K on May 4th is the target here.  Check, qualified for Western States for the 7th straight year.  I don't have a way to confirm this but my guess is I'm one of just a couple of hundred people in the sport that can currently say that, which is kind of cool.  

2.  Speaking of Miwok, I'll pretty much need to set a 100K PR there to get that qualifier.  The cutoff is 15:30, and my current PR is 15:17 set at Quicksilver back in 2015.  I'd love to get sub-15:00 so I'll throw that out there.  Check, 14:51 at Miwok for a 26 minute 100K PR.

3.  Set new PRs in distance, time, elevation.  2019 miles sounds like a good goal, and 300,000' of elevation gain. Not even close

4.  Keep learning about the 100 mile distance.  I don't have one on the calendar yet, but I do plan on running one in 2019 to continue to learn.  They are each unique beasts, even the same course on different years, so the more experience I have the better.  Maybe I'll run two of them????  San Diego 100 was my best executed 100 so far, so I'll call this a win.

5.  Get healthier.  Eat mindfully, lose weight, and incorporate strength work. 

6.  Volunteer more.  Whiffed that one in 2018, time to give more back to this sport that has meant so much to me.  Whiffed this again.  Dammit.

7.  Enjoy the process.  Mixed bag here

New accomplishments or PRs in 2019:

100K PR at Miwok in 14:51:55 (previous 100K PR 15:17:13)

100M PR at San Diego in 29:45:41 (previous 100M PR 29:47:41, so this one was pretty damned close)

5M Canicross PR in 49:42 (never done one of these before, so I'll count it)

Your proudest and/or best race (or moment within a race):

The finish of San Diego, and by "finish" I mean the last 15 miles or so.  The sun was coming up, it was getting hot, and I was just grinding away and passing people on the short but punchy climbs.  And then Surf, who had DNFd around mile 50 the day before with chest pains, shows up at mile 91 to pace me in to the finish. He tells his wife to expect us at the finish in about three hours, and I corrected him and said we had less than two and half hours to get in under 30:00.  Two hours and ten minutes later, I had a 2 minute 100M PR.

A race or training disappointment during 2019:

The second half of 2019 after SD100.  I just lost my mojo and have barely been running, let alone doing any actual "training".  I pulled out of Wasatch and the Quad Dipsea, both because I wasn't getting in the necessary training.  Starting a new job that has me a lot busier was part of the challenge, but that's just an excuse.  If it's important enough I'll figure it out.  What's strange is that training in the first half of the year was really good and led to two good race results for me.  Then I just lost it.  Time to get it back again.

Total training volume during 2019:

353:11:38 total training time for 1,648 miles and 222,713' of elevation gain.  That's down quite a bit from 2018, but very similar to the previous 3-4 years.  

Lesson(s) you’ve learned during the year:

This was just such a strange year for me running-wise, really two completely separate entities from January - June and then everything afterward.  Not sure what I've learned from it, other than that it's easy to let training (and fitness) slip away if you're not mindful and motivated.  I need to change that in 2020.

Best and/or funny memories of other guys’ training or races in 2019:

I haven't been around much the past few months, so I'm sure I've missed a bunch of great stuff from you guys.  But following along on the relay race was awesome.  So cool that this place has brought all of us together, and to see so many of you have that experience was great.  

Of course highlights for me are going to be focused on trail and ultra stuff.  Seeing @BassNBrew and @SayWhat? get their WS100 qualifiers, and SayWhat getting picked in the lottery tops the list.  Excited to see what he can do out there on the last Saturday in June!  Also @Zasada's mountain exploits, his first ultra, and now gearing up for Miwok.

Funniest is easy - @MAC_32 smoking young dudes with a Dum Dum in his mouth and holding his phone is such a great visual!

Goal(s) for 2020:

They really aren't that much different than last year.

1.  For the eighth straight year the #1 goal is Western States qualifier.  Canyons 100K and Angeles Crest 100M are both on the schedule for that.

2.  Angeles Crest is also a Hardrock qualifier, which would put me in that lottery for the 5th(?) time.

3.  As a standalone goal, getting redemption at AC for my only DNF.  I'd like to not only finish that beast, but get a new 100M PR.  I know it's possible.

4.  2,000 miles, I haven't hit that yet.  300,000' of gain, haven't hit that yet either.

5.  Get healthier.  Eat mindfully, lose weight, and incorporate strength work. (let's try this one again)

6.  Try and keep up in here.  I currently have the 10-year reports written so far all open in separate browser tabs so I can get back to reading them, but I'd like to stay more up to speed on what you all are doing, participating in the conversation, etc.  I've missed out on the motivation that provides recently.

 

[Zasada]

And then Surf, who had DNFd around mile 50 the day before with chest pains, shows up at mile 91 to pace me in to the finish. He tells his wife to expect us at the finish in about three hours, and I corrected him and said we had less than two and half hours to get in under 30:00.  Two hours and ten minutes later, I had a 2 minute 100M PR.

Love all the PRs and especially this.  Let's push each other for 300,000' of elevation this year!  

Hopefully Summit is healed, and able to be your training buddy.  Love seeing him out there with you.

 

[-OZ-]

. 

Also, I would definitely avoid a minimalist shoe.

I love my minimalist shoes for the gym. Zero drop, feel almost shoeless while squatting or other exercises. But only for short runs.  I do like zero drop but need some cushion for long runs.