Ran a 10k - Official Thread (4 Viewers)

[-OZ-]

So apparently swimming a mile after running ten isn't as easy as the opposite order. 

Wife wanted to check out the new gym so I took her over there, gave a tour, and let her alone with the machines and weights while I hit the pool. 

After about 1,000 yards, I got cramps every hundred or so, even when just pulling with the buoy. 

After the swim, I go find the wife, see some dude checking her out while she's lifting. She mentioned that she saw it, I just said take it as a compliment, she gave me the "this one is mine" kiss. Dude walked away.

 

[Zasada]

I do sense a lot of doubt in you regarding Miwok.  Is that just self-deprecating, or real?  With what you've done in the marathon, a 50K, and all the elevation you do I have no doubts you'll do well there.  The only "unknown" for you will be the hydration and nutrition, so along with what you're already doing and planning to do will be the need to try and dial that in.

I'm concerned about the distance and the cutoff.  But mostly the latter.  I did my first (and only) 50K in ~7:30 and double that would be right at the Miwok cutoff.  I could have done the 50K 30 minutes faster, but I also don't know how much I'm going to slow down for the last 50K of the 100K (much like how the last 10K of a street marathon is an entirely different universe than the first 32K).

So I intentionally picked a goal that could be outside my capability.  Doesn't mean I'm not going to train hard for it, though.

In that vein, I decided this morning that I'm going to skip the Houston marathon, so that I don't risk aggravating my butt injury during my Miwok training.

My butt is strangely getting better, despite my higher volume as of late.  Don't know why.  Less streets & more trails?  New shoes?  Running slower?

If you find any time for training tips for Miwok, I'm all ears.  Asked for (and received) a couple ultrarunning books for xmas, and plan to tackle those over the next couple weeks.

 

[tri-man 47]

I use a spikey ball or golf ball pretty regularly but it’s more to relieve tension and aches.   Inserts and stuff like that are sometimes necessary but can crutch/ mask other areas to address. The trick is getting to knowing if you need inserts or if it’s better addressed upstream with ankle and balance/proprioception work.  I’d work on the latter and also focus on finding shoes with stability/support for most runs and some of that easy run stuff too. 

@xulf - a couple of thoughts to add to the input.  First, for the above, you could regularly work on standing on one foot.  As I do this, I can feel the foot and ankle working hard to keep my balance, and I feel it's good to engage them in that way.  Second, for the foot, you might try this trick: When you wake up, sit on the edge of the bed and 'write the alphabet' with each foot.  That would help to loosen up the feet and ankles.  See if either or both might help!

 

[-OZ-]

.

My butt is strangely getting better, 

 

[Zasada]

I'd love to take you up on this soon, Sinister 7 related or not.

Anytime!  The only problem will be deciding which trails to show you!

 

[Zasada]

One day left in the week and I have a razor-thin lead on Steve Chu...

 

[gianmarco]

One day left in the week and I have a razor-thin lead on Steve Chu...

I know how that feels.....

 

[SFBayDuck]

I'm concerned about the distance and the cutoff.  But mostly the latter.  I did my first (and only) 50K in ~7:30 and double that would be right at the Miwok cutoff.  I could have done the 50K 30 minutes faster, but I also don't know how much I'm going to slow down for the last 50K of the 100K (much like how the last 10K of a street marathon is an entirely different universe than the first 32K).

So I intentionally picked a goal that could be outside my capability.  Doesn't mean I'm not going to train hard for it, though.

In that vein, I decided this morning that I'm going to skip the Houston marathon, so that I don't risk aggravating my butt injury during my Miwok training.

My butt is strangely getting better, despite my higher volume as of late.  Don't know why.  Less streets & more trails?  New shoes?  Running slower?

If you find any time for training tips for Miwok, I'm all ears.  Asked for (and received) a couple ultrarunning books for xmas, and plan to tackle those over the next couple weeks.

Happy to help however I can.  I know you read Koop's book, what else are you reading?  

Early on in ultras I was just volume and vert based - build up the long runs, and do as much elevation gain (and loss) as I could in the build up.  I did base my States training on Koop, but it's a bit more aggressive with a mix of intervals, tempo, steady state, and endurance runs.  I'd already run seven 50+ milers at that point, so I felt I was ready to be more aggressive.  And I think it worked for me.  Coming off doing marathon training in the recent past, it might feel right to you as well.  

In general I believe Koop's most important point is to focus on specificity in the 8 weeks or so going into your taper.  Spend as much time on trails as you can (I know you want to anyway!), and look to mimic the elevation gain of Miwok across your training and specifically in your long run.  With Miwok at 11,800' over 62 miles you'll want to build in 190'-200' of gain (and don't forget the loss) per mile. You did more than that last week, and you're not far off this week.

 

[xulf]

@xulf - a couple of thoughts to add to the input.  First, for the above, you could regularly work on standing on one foot.  As I do this, I can feel the foot and ankle working hard to keep my balance, and I feel it's good to engage them in that way.  Second, for the foot, you might try this trick: When you wake up, sit on the edge of the bed and 'write the alphabet' with each foot.  That would help to loosen up the feet and ankles.  See if either or both might help!

I've been doing the alphabet thing and the one leg balance is in my plans.  My wife is an NP and when I mentioned proprioception she suggested we get a BOSU ball for the balance in addition to core work (and since I am an Amazon whore, that baby will be here tomorrow).

 

[Zasada]

I know you read Koop's book, what else are you reading?

Yup, read Koop and plan to read it again.  The two books I got for xmas were Hal Koerner's Field Guide to Ultrarunning, and Krissy Moehl's Running Your First Ultra. 

In general I believe Koop's most important point is to focus on specificity in the 8 weeks or so going into your taper.  Spend as much time on trails as you can (I know you want to anyway!), and look to mimic the elevation gain of Miwok across your training and specifically in your long run.

Looking at the elevation profile for Miwok, it appears most/many of the grades are in the 10% range.  While I love Prairie Mountain, which is great for cranking elevation, it's an average 20% grade, with many sections at 30%.  Not quite specific to Miwok.  I'll defer to you, but I don't think doing 2 runs at 20% grades, and then 2 runs at 0% grades, averaging 10%, will get me to Miwok-specific training.

So I'm planning to train in the foothills, doing runs like this one.  Many of the uphills are runnable and the downhills are more moderate than Prairie Mountain.  Also there are many options to create new loops or shortcut other ones to make the runs as long or as short as I want to.

There will still be some Prairie Mountain in the mix, for sure, but it won't be my focus.  Unless you think it should be!

The big challenge will be weekdays.  Realistically I can only run streets during the week.  Not a ton of elevation options there.  Maybe get some treadmill (10-15% grade) in the mix?

 

[The Iguana]

I have a few posts to catch up in here but first...

Resolution 5k Race Report

I ran this event last year and it is a ton of fun. It's part of a fall winter cross country series. I missed the first event that was right after the monumental. This one is in a park in Avon Indiana. This race is what I always thought running cross country would be like before I ever actually raced an event in high school. A lot of the course is single lane, very winding paths through woods. There's countless tree roots to contend with, lots of mud, a couple creek crossings, including one rather lengthy section through boggy conditions and water up to mid calf and a nice uphill finish. 

My goal coming into it was simply rf; dbap - I wanted to try to be around 22 minutes and just see how close to the front I could stay. Last year when I did it, my official time was 25:54.10 and I finished 40th out of 191. I definitley better set a course PR!

To start, I broke rule #1 right off the bat. Put on my brand new pair of Saucony trail shoes that I bought yesterday for my first run on a race day. Took a little warm up run before the race they felt great...

We get the 3, 2, 1, GO! And we are off. I set off on the heels of the friend of mines 8th grader that is a pretty good runner - actually better than he knows. As soon as  he learns to embrace the suck, he will be incredible, IMO. Anyway, we get off to a good start, about 12 to 15 people out in front of us and after the first 200 yards, it narrows to single lane trail that is down hill for a bit. At the bottom of the hill there's a stint on a road and then off into the woods for a bunch of twists and turns on a very narrow dirt trail. Absolute blast. Per my watch, mile 1 was 7:01. Mile 2 is in and out of woods with single lane track. Toward the end there is a creek crossing, then a couple turns and then the muck! Fairly signicant standing water with thick mud at the bottom and then just mud. Last year this section made me hurt... Bad. This year it slowed me some but I was ready for it! Mile 2 was 8:14. Mile three has a fairly wide path early, and eventually meets back up with the original trail and you retrace your steps on the road, and then back up the one lane hill we came down with the he finish at the top of the hill. Mile 3 (.97 per Garmin) was done in 7:28. 

For the most part I finished in pretty much the place I was in by the end of mile 1. I passed my buddy's son a little passed the first mile marker and eventually passed another guy that was probably late teens/early 20s. I was pretty much on his heels until just before the creek crossing. I'd pull up next to him and he'd push ahead until I pulled up next one last time, he started to do it again and I just gutted out a few steps and he fell back behind me. Didn't see him again. I was only passed by a few people - only 2 that were memorable. I was a speedy dude probably about 1.5 in - he had to have been taking it easy early cause he just bolted by and was gone in an instant. The other was a pleasant sight. Shorty into the 3rd mile this 20 year old in a braids went by me. I did all I could to stay there and mostly did. For one brief moment going up the hill at the end I thought I was going to catch her but it didn't happen.

My watch recorded it as 2.97 miles, as did others that I saw on strava but I think it is because of all the winding paths through woods losing a bit of distance by missing some of the twists and turns. It recorded pretty much the exact same last year. But as for results...

22:25.65 - course PR by more than 3.5 minutes!

1 of 14 in AG

15 of 99 men

17 of 211 total

Actually looking at the results, no one over the age of 34 beat me - I'm 49. Although, we left before I collected my prize, whatever it may have been.

Not going to lie... I'm on cloud 9 today! 

 

[SteelCurtain]

This is one of the coolest things going on here.  

Honestly, pacing is something rewarding and really important to me for the next decade.  I’ll include why in my decade report.  #teaser

 

[SteelCurtain]

I need to figure out something with my feet.  They are always in some pain, which is manageable with stretching them and my calves, rolling my calves, and using a golf ball to roll my feet.  However, they are not accommodating to increased milage which always causes painful flare ups.

I'm currently dealing with plantar fasciitis (again) on my left foot along with some pain on the outside.  It was terrible after my run on Thursday (walking with a bad limp), bad yesterday (but improving), and okish feeling today (but still cant run).  I've had this issue on both feet more than once - it always seems to go away after a few days of treatment but it is super frustrating and painful.

This is my first instance of it since getting my feet evaluated and getting new shoes and an insert (off the shelf) in late November.  The timing of the new shoes also coincides with increasing my cadence which may or may not mean anything.

I'm wondering if I need something custom and if I should be seeing a doctor about this.  I have high arches, and differently shaped/width/length feet which I'm sure doesnt help.

Anyone deal with anything like this and have been able to remedy? 

I had PF pretty bad after bringing old shoes on vacation and running on them every day.

My remedy was to get new shoes and stretch my calves constantly.  Literally every hour or two during the day I’d stretch them (even just a little.). I’d do a whole stretching routine before bed too. 
 

i would also use a golf ball or lacrosse call on my feet to massage the bottoms. 
 

 For me, my calves being tight was contributing to my PF.  After 2-3 weeks, it was pretty much gone. 
 

Now when I feel it coming on, I make sure I focus on those calves.

 

[xulf]

I had PF pretty bad after bringing old shoes on vacation and running on them every day.

My remedy was to get new shoes and stretch my calves constantly.  Literally every hour or two during the day I’d stretch them (even just a little.). I’d do a whole stretching routine before bed too. 
 

i would also use a golf ball or lacrosse call on my feet to massage the bottoms. 
 

 For me, my calves being tight was contributing to my PF.  After 2-3 weeks, it was pretty much gone. 
 

Now when I feel it coming on, I make sure I focus on those calves.

The calf work and golf ball have been life savers when making it go away in a few days.  I also do these almost every day, but it could be more and should be more of a focus with increasing milage.

 

[The Iguana]

Anyone deal with anything like this and have been able to remedy? 

I deal with this often - comes and goes depending on a few factors... probably the biggest is about how much attention I give my heels in stretching, etc. The more I neglect them, the more discomfort I suffer. On my phone now but I'll link to an article with some stuff in it. But the big ones for me are rolling my feet with a foot massager and doing heel raises/drops on a stair/curb. 

The other is having the right shoes and making sure they aren't "done". That's one way I know when in reaching end of life on a pair - heel pain even when stretching and such. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

I really dont want to buy 2 pairs of shoes, but I would do/pay just about anything if I could eliminate like 90% of these issues.

For what it’s worth, I believe rotating shoes is helpful for this reason:

The problem is that the forces involved with running are extremely repetitive—an hour-long run will likely rack up over ten thousand foot strikes, with each impact very much like the previous one.

By changing up the forces on your body even slightly by wearing a different pair of shoes, you might give a stressed part of your feet or legs a chance to rest up a bit.

https://runnersconnect.net/shoe-rotation-reduce-running-injuries/

 

[MAC_32]

For what it’s worth, I believe rotating shoes is helpful for this reason:

https://runnersconnect.net/shoe-rotation-reduce-running-injuries/

 my 5 shoe rotation is excessive, but this is one reason why. Also why I try to incorporate different running surfaces. 

 

[gianmarco]

For what it’s worth, I believe rotating shoes is helpful for this reason:

https://runnersconnect.net/shoe-rotation-reduce-running-injuries/

He would be buying 2 shoes not to rotate, but to use only the left shoe from one pair and the right shoe from the other pair.  One of his feet is 10.3 in size.  The other is 11.1. 

On top of that, one of his feet is normal width (D) and the other is wide (E). 

Mutants shouldn't run but this one wants to try.

 

[Juxtatarot]

He would be buying 2 shoes not to rotate, but to use only the left shoe from one pair and the right shoe from the other pair.  One of his feet is 10.3 in size.  The other is 11.1. 

On top of that, one of his feet is normal width (D) and the other is wide (E). 

Mutants shouldn't run but this one wants to try.

I guess I shouldn’t skim.

 

[xulf]

For what it’s worth, I believe rotating shoes is helpful for this reason:

https://runnersconnect.net/shoe-rotation-reduce-running-injuries/

He would be buying 2 shoes not to rotate, but to use only the left shoe from one pair and the right shoe from the other pair.  One of his feet is 10.3 in size.  The other is 11.1. 

On top of that, one of his feet is normal width (D) and the other is wide (E). 

Mutants shouldn't run but this one wants to try.

For what it's worth, even with my hideous deformity, rotating shoes may be a very helpful solution.  Have one pair geared toward the left and one toward the right, assuming they are comfortable enough for the off foot.  That would at least give each one a bit of a reprieve.

 

[Zasada]

even with my hideous deformity

My link.

 

[gianmarco]

Xulf at the beach

 

[SFBayDuck]

Yup, read Koop and plan to read it again.  The two books I got for xmas were Hal Koerner's Field Guide to Ultrarunning, and Krissy Moehl's Running Your First Ultra. 

Looking at the elevation profile for Miwok, it appears most/many of the grades are in the 10% range.  While I love Prairie Mountain, which is great for cranking elevation, it's an average 20% grade, with many sections at 30%.  Not quite specific to Miwok.  I'll defer to you, but I don't think doing 2 runs at 20% grades, and then 2 runs at 0% grades, averaging 10%, will get me to Miwok-specific training.

So I'm planning to train in the foothills, doing runs like this one.  Many of the uphills are runnable and the downhills are more moderate than Prairie Mountain.  Also there are many options to create new loops or shortcut other ones to make the runs as long or as short as I want to.

There will still be some Prairie Mountain in the mix, for sure, but it won't be my focus.  Unless you think it should be!

The big challenge will be weekdays.  Realistically I can only run streets during the week.  Not a ton of elevation options there.  Maybe get some treadmill (10-15% grade) in the mix?

Yeah, no sense grinding up long, 20% climbs consistently during training to get ready for a race like Miwok.  Not that you can't do it, and I know you will because you enjoy it.  But that other run you linked is perfect - shorter climbs more in line with the grade you'll see on race day.  Maybe even double that one and run it twice on a Saturday 4-5 weeks out from the race, unless you have another 50K planned in your lead up (which I would encourage).  Those extra long days are the best way to practice race-day nutrition and hydration strategies as well.

And there's nothing wrong with running streets during the week, especially since Miwok has a fair amount of runnable terrain.  (ETA:  I should probably do this more.)

 

[tri-man 47]

Xulf at the beach

Because @xulf, when you see only one set of footprints in the sand, that's when @gianmarco is carrying you.  Find comfort in that.

 

[gianmarco]

Because @xulf, when you see only one set of footprints in the sand, that's when @gianmarco is carrying you.  Find comfort in that.

Yes, I thought of that post too when I posted that picture.

 

[MAC_32]

@Zasada you fell a half hour behind Chu. Get back out there.

 

[Juxtatarot]

@Zasada you fell a half hour behind Chu. Get back out there.

He’s going to have to hike up Prairie Mountain tomorrow...twice.

 

[ChiefD]

Running with hot neighbor tomorrow morning.

 

[ChiefD]

My butt is strangely getting better, despite my higher volume as of late.  Don't know why.  Less streets & more trails?  New shoes?  Running slower?

It may be tied to something else actually.

I have a degenerative disc in my neck on my right side. When I am not running as much, I get pain in my whole right side:

Right shoulder blade, hip, right glute - basically my whole right side in some fashion. The more mileage I run it somehow releases the pinch in my nerves up there and my whole right side will loosen up and feel better.

 

[MAC_32]

It may be tied to something else actually.

I have a degenerative disc in my neck on my right side. When I am not running as much, I get pain in my whole right side:

Right shoulder blade, hip, right glute - basically my whole right side in some fashion. The more mileage I run it somehow releases the pinch in my nerves up there and my whole right side will loosen up and feel better.

Degenerative excess shoveling disorder 

 

[tri-man 47]

It may be tied to something else actually.

I have a degenerative disc in my neck on my right side. When I am not running as much, I get pain in my whole right side:

Right shoulder blade, hip, right glute - basically my whole right side in some fashion. The more mileage I run it somehow releases the pinch in my nerves up there and my whole right side will loosen up and feel better.

Ugh!  I had a pinched nerve if some sort a year ago..somewhere off the right side of my neck and toward my shoulder blade.  It took a number of weeks to shake it.  The feeling of numbness down into my upper right arm and upper back were sooo distracting.  I was a Biofreeze junkie for a while there.

 

[Zasada]

@Zasada you fell a half hour behind Chu. Get back out there.

Done.

Back to a 1hr lead.  But I'm not sure it will hold.  I'm definitely done for the day and the week.  My first 100km week ever!

My butt was not happy today.  That, combined with horribly icy conditions (had a melt/freeze event yesterday and last night), meant my pace was super-slow.

I'm happy with the week, and my effort over the last two weeks.  Made good use of the vacation.

 

[Zasada]

He’s going to have to hike up Prairie Mountain tomorrow...twice.

That would have been the most competitive move, but I needed to stay in-town today.  Wife wanted to go out for breakfast on my last day of vacation, the gold medal Canada vs Russia WorldJr game is on at 1100, and the Seahawks are going to lay waste to the Eagles at 1430.  So no time to get out to the mountains.

 

[JShare87]

Done.

Back to a 1hr lead.  But I'm not sure it will hold.  I'm definitely done for the day and the week.  My first 100km week ever!

My butt was not happy today.  That, combined with horribly icy conditions (had a melt/freeze event yesterday and last night), meant my pace was super-slow.

I'm happy with the week, and my effort over the last two weeks.  Made good use of the vacation.

You have to go out for a 13 minute trot. Don’t be a p####!

 

[xulf]

You have to go out for a 13 minute trot. Don’t be a p####!

I'm guessing Steve has another 6 miler coming...but Z can just go out again after that's posted.

 

[Zasada]

You have to go out for a 13 minute trot. Don’t be a p####!

Damn.  I walked the dog earlier and that was more than 13 minutes.  Should have logged that!

 

[JShare87]

Damn.  I walked the dog earlier and that was more than 13 minutes.  Should have logged that!

Manually log it in! WTF are you doing!?!? Get that W!

 

[tri-man 47]

That would have been the most competitive move, but I needed to stay in-town today.  Wife wanted to go out for breakfast on my last day of vacation, the gold medal Canada vs Russia WorldJr game is on at 1100, and the Seahawks are going to lay waste to the Eagles at 1430.  So no time to get out to the mountains.

Hey!  Who wears the snowpants in the family?

 

[MAC_32]

Damn.  I walked the dog earlier and that was more than 13 minutes.  Should have logged that!

Halftime is 12 minutes. Lace them up and get ready.

 

[gianmarco]

Halftime is 12 minutes. Lace them up and get ready.

And the off-season is even longer :(

 

[Zasada]

And the off-season is even longer :(

You got robbed on that (non-) OPI call.  Total pushoff.

 

[MAC_32]

148 miles in 16 days. I never thought I'd ever see that. Streak is up to 27 days and there are not currently any signs this week indicating it may stop. Whenever winter does come maybe I can justify taking multiple days off. 

 

[The Iguana]

Oops, forgot to post here.  I heard back from the director and yeah, no deadline for the rest of you to sign up.  I think we have our 6 with @gruecd in and a couple solid maybes.  Unless there's any protest, the roster looks like this:

@gianmarco

@tri-man 47

@The Iguana

@gruecd

@Zasada (80%?)

@SteelCurtain (yes but needs to ask the boss later on)

Is that correct? 

We should make an alternate list to fill in in case someone from that list can't make it.

You guys will just go here and sign up:  https://gostlouis.org/events/mississippi-running-festival/

Team name:  RF;DBAP (it can be changed)

Password:  shovel

I'm in!

 

[Juxtatarot]

148 miles in 16 days. I never thought I'd ever see that. Streak is up to 27 days and there are not currently any signs this week indicating it may stop. Whenever winter does come maybe I can justify taking multiple days off. 

It certainly has been a mild winter so far.  10 day forecast still looks fine too.

 

[ChiefD]

It certainly has been a mild winter so far.  10 day forecast still looks fine too.

We've been lucky here too. You all can thank me for buying a treadmill.

Collecting dust at the moment. 

 

[MAC_32]

It certainly has been a mild winter so far.  10 day forecast still looks fine too.

Locals are warning us of the bottom falling out later in the month, but they said with very high confidence that arctic air will stay in Canada into next week and probably through it too. I tentatively mapped out about 120 miles through MLK Day, which would get me in the 165 range for the month. I put my January goal number at 210, so regardless of the haymakers mother nature may throw from there I like my chances of exceeding January's target number.

 

[xulf]

I was able to get in 3 miles when going home to let our puppy out.  

Switched to my Hokas for the run --- I forgot how squishy those things are.  I actually like them other than they are a bit narrow on my mutant right foot and I bought them .5 size too big. I do think the inserts I was wearing in my NBs were totally F'ing me up.  Too much correction and it was making me run on the outside of my foot even more than I normally do.

I went to the shoe store yesterday and the person working was clearly not that happy to be there on a Sunday.  I bought a pair of mizuno wave sky waveknit 3s, but am probably going to take them back.  They feel pretty nice, but I think that I prefer a lesser heel drop.  I also bought a pair of the kinvara 10's from Amazon and will see how those work out (they will be here tomorrow).

Just glad to be running again and able to walk without limping immediately after.

 

[gianmarco]

I was able to get in 3 miles when going home to let our puppy out.  

Switched to my Hokas for the run --- I forgot how squishy those things are.  I actually like them other than they are a bit narrow on my mutant right foot and I bought them .5 size too big. I do think the inserts I was wearing in my NBs were totally F'ing me up.  Too much correction and it was making me run on the outside of my foot even more than I normally do.

I went to the shoe store yesterday and the person working was clearly not that happy to be there on a Sunday.  I bought a pair of mizuno wave sky waveknit 3s, but am probably going to take them back.  They feel pretty nice, but I think that I prefer a lesser heel drop.  I also bought a pair of the kinvara 10's from Amazon and will see how those work out (they will be here tomorrow).

Just glad to be running again and able to walk without limping immediately after.

Running Warehouse next time. Same price, free shipping, BUT you can try the shoes for 90 days and send back if they aren't good. About the only place I've seen that lets you wear and run with shoes to see how they really feel and still be able to return.

 

[MAC_32]

Running Warehouse next time. Same price, free shipping, BUT you can try the shoes for 90 days and send back if they aren't good. About the only place I've seen that lets you wear and run with shoes to see how they really feel and still be able to return.

Fleet Feet has the same policy.

 

[Juxtatarot]

90 days?  During marathon training shoes might not even last that long.