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Ranking The Top 10 Most Clutch QBs (1 Viewer)

ngl, that’s pretty good.
Lol got it from a podcast. I def don't think he's the 2nd coming and even at his best wouldn't put him up there with Mahomes/Burrow. But I think he could eventually be in the Herbert/Allen tier from a passing perspective (so more real life than dynasty since he'll never match the rushing of Allen/Hurts). And while the WRs help, his best abilities would exist without them. Quick release, ability to target the middle of the field, works through progressions staying mobile and keeping his eyes up, great accuracy throwing into windows and throwing open. I can see dynasty players anxious about the concussions ranking him lower as a result, but analysts talking real world football straight up disrespect this man on a daily basis.
 
How many times would they need to demonstrate they're good there for you to change your mind?
For Cousins? How about we start with one time while playing in front of a national audience?
He engineered the biggest comeback in NFL history in a primetime game. 8 months ago.

Blasphemer. How dare you present a fact that contradicts the narrative? ;)
And it was very impressive.

11-18 in his career. 2-2 last year.

Also facts.
 
How many times would they need to demonstrate they're good there for you to change your mind?
For Cousins? How about we start with one time while playing in front of a national audience?
He engineered the biggest comeback in NFL history in a primetime game. 8 months ago.

Blasphemer. How dare you present a fact that contradicts the narrative? ;)
Here’s the thing. That was clutch. No diubt. Cousins was clutch.

In that moment.

Is he clutch, like, make a list of all the clutch players and rank him on that list?

These are two different things entirely. Professional athletes come up big in big moments and it’s fair to call those performances clutch. Right there with you.

But Cousins isn’t clutch. The narrative is what it is because he’s been mostly not clutch on the national stage.
 
He engineered the biggest comeback in NFL history in a primetime game.

I think the question I have is how many more huge comebacks in prime time games he needs to have. Obviously, having the biggest comeback in NFL history in a primetime game as recently as possible isn't enough.

Does he need the top two biggest comebacks in NFL history in a primetime game?

Top Three?

Top Five?
 
How many times would they need to demonstrate they're good there for you to change your mind?
For Cousins? How about we start with one time while playing in front of a national audience?
He engineered the biggest comeback in NFL history in a primetime game. 8 months ago.

Blasphemer. How dare you present a fact that contradicts the narrative? ;)
Here’s the thing. That was clutch. No diubt. Cousins was clutch.

In that moment.

Is he clutch, like, make a list of all the clutch players and rank him on that list?

These are two different things entirely. Professional athletes come up big in big moments and it’s fair to call those performances clutch. Right there with you.

But Cousins isn’t clutch. The narrative is what it is because he’s been mostly not clutch on the national stage.
I mean, sure.

But he also led his team to 90 yards and 0 points with a pick 6 in the first half of that game.

He threw a pick in the fourth quarter of that game too.

You can't take it away from him but, does it erase his history in national games?
 
He engineered the biggest comeback in NFL history in a primetime game.

I think the question I have is how many more huge comebacks in prime time games he needs to have. Obviously, having the biggest comeback in a primetime game as recently as possible isn't enough.

Does he need the top two biggest comebacks in NFL history in a primetime game?

Top Three?

Top Five?
How about getting to a .500 career record in games in front of a national audience.

Right now he's at .370 and...go.
 
How many times would they need to demonstrate they're good there for you to change your mind?
For Cousins? How about we start with one time while playing in front of a national audience?
He engineered the biggest comeback in NFL history in a primetime game. 8 months ago.

Blasphemer. How dare you present a fact that contradicts the narrative? ;)
Here’s the thing. That was clutch. No diubt. Cousins was clutch.

In that moment.

Is he clutch, like, make a list of all the clutch players and rank him on that list?

These are two different things entirely. Professional athletes come up big in big moments and it’s fair to call those performances clutch. Right there with you.

But Cousins isn’t clutch. The narrative is what it is because he’s been mostly not clutch on the national stage.
I mean, sure.

But he also led his team to 90 yards and 0 points with a pick 6 in the first half of that game.

He threw a pick in the fourth quarter of that game too.

You can't take it away from him but, does it erase his history in national games?
1000% with you.
 
How about getting to a .500 career record in games in front of a national audience.

I always think the "Wins Are A QB Stat" question is interesting.

But assuming they are, you're saying Cousins gets to 18-18 in primetime games and then he'll be considered "clutch"?
 
I don't think Cousins should get THAT much credit for that Colts game last year. That was more about an incompetent head coach choking a game away, to the point where it felt like he was seemingly actively trying to lose. I think everyone in this thread could have called a better 2nd half than Saturday did.

While it was the biggest comeback of all-time it was nowhere near the greatest. I'd actually argue overall Cousins didn't even play well in the game overall. He was a big part of the deficit in the 1st place. How much credit does Cousins get for the game tying TD to Cook that I could have thrown?

Its kinda funny how it works. I think Cousins played much better in the wildcard loss to NY than in the Colts win, like 2X better, and yet the narrative is clutch performance in one, and choker in another.
 
Also, not a card carrying member of TuANON, but man, I think this guy is the most unnecessarily hated football player I can remember. People attack the man for everything, and even when stats prove them not just wrong, but like as wrong as possible (re: deep ball accuracy) you get the qualifiers "well he has Tyreek" lol. It just feels crazy to me at this point.
I think it’s fair to say that Hill and Waddle make a QB’s life a lot easier without it being disrespectful to Tua. The Dolphins are much better when he plays than when he doesn’t so yes he’s good. In this context it’s also hard to accept him as “clutch” based on a few regular season games - but that goes back to the whole argument as to what clutch is.
 
How about getting to a .500 career record in games in front of a national audience.

I always think the "Wins Are A QB Stat" question is interesting.

But assuming they are, you're saying Cousins gets to 18-18 in primetime games and then he'll be considered "clutch"?
I feel the need to say that I don't dislike Cousins as a QB. He is easily in the top half of QBs in the game.

As a Raider fan Cousins reminds me a lot of Carr. Physically very talented, live arm and generally puts up numbers.

But neither of them would be among my top choices to have under center with the game on the line.

To the point of QBs being a team stat, I absolutely agree. Cousins was the QB for 8 wins where the Vikings needed to score in the 4th to seal the game. All props to him for that.

The thing about those kind of narrow, late game victories is they have a way of evening out over time. Winning a lot of one score games generally means you got some good bounces and good calls or non calls from the refs too.

So, all props to Cousins and the Vikings but I am still not sold that his entire body of work demonstrates any sort value add over other QBs in his tier.

Short story long, yes if he reels off 9 straight wins in front of national audiences to get to 18-18 I will gladly say that I believe he has turned the corner.
 
As I said in the original post, I knew the Tagovailoa and Cousins folks would love this. I had no idea how much thought. Good stuff.
It’s thought provoking to say the least. :)
I guess but considering how he has been in and out of the lineup so much I don't see how Tua even has a big enough body of work to draw any kind of conclusions about him as a QB on almost any level.

34 games played seems like a lot but it sure feels like he has played a lot less than that.
 
What about coaches? Can they be “clutch”?

Andy Reid was thought of as a dude who couldn’t win the big one.

Now he has Mahomes. IIRC Mahomes has attributed much of his success to Reid’s play calling in late & close games.

Is Andy Reid “clutch”? Was he not clutch when he had McNabb?
:shrug:
 
Also, not a card carrying member of TuANON, but man, I think this guy is the most unnecessarily hated football player I can remember. People attack the man for everything, and even when stats prove them not just wrong, but like as wrong as possible (re: deep ball accuracy) you get the qualifiers "well he has Tyreek" lol. It just feels crazy to me at this point.
I think it’s fair to say that Hill and Waddle make a QB’s life a lot easier without it being disrespectful to Tua. The Dolphins are much better when he plays than when he doesn’t so yes he’s good. In this context it’s also hard to accept him as “clutch” based on a few regular season games - but that goes back to the whole argument as to what clutch is.
Totally fair, and would be disingenuous not to be part of the conversation. I just dislike when it's almost lodged as an excuse for his good performances/metrics.

As for the clutch thing, tbh, I'm kinda nowhere on it. I appreciate the article posted as intriguing content, but not sure I can even define what clutch is, let alone break down analysis that tries to numerically quantify it. I can't personally say I've ever watched Tua and thought he was anymore clutch (or any less) than any other random QB. To my chagrin after my former statements, I do think of Eli when I think of clutch but personally I think it's because he was so (IMO) mediocre most of the time, it accentuated his playoff performances to such a point that they appeared more clutch than if he had just always played at that high level all the time.

Probably a cop out, but I'd lean towards a Justice Stewart stance on clutch; "won't try to define it, but I know it when I see it."
 
Totally fair, and would be disingenuous not to be part of the conversation. I just dislike when it's almost lodged as an excuse for his good performances/metrics
Outside of his frail build and injury history I think what works against his perception is being a left handed thrower. It just looks weird because we are not used to seeing it.
 
Totally fair, and would be disingenuous not to be part of the conversation. I just dislike when it's almost lodged as an excuse for his good performances/metrics
Outside of his frail build and injury history I think what works against his perception is being a left handed thrower. It just looks weird because we are not used to seeing it.
Yeah, I think I've heard/read receivers talking about how it can take a while to acclimate to the different spin and way it fades over distance when first catching from a lefty. And obviously it's a bit different blocking for as well with the opposite blind side. The whole thing can certainly look strange. Feels like Vick was the last prominent lefty we watched every Sunday, and even he was less noticeable because it felt we were much more focused on waiting to see him tuck and run.
 
So, all props to Cousins and the Vikings but I am still not sold that his entire body of work demonstrates any sort value add over other QBs in his tier.

I"m sorry but I don't understand. If he did offer a value add over other QBs in his tier, wouldn't he be in another tier? When I put players into the same tier, it's because they are all similar value. Did you mean something different?
 
Short story long, yes if he reels off 9 straight wins in front of national audiences to get to 18-18 I will gladly say that I believe he has turned the corner.

I was asking if you thought that would make him a "clutch" player. "But assuming they are, you're saying Cousins gets to 18-18 in primetime games and then he'll be considered "clutch"?"

I do find linking the W-L record and "Clutch" interesting and something that could be an interesting thread.
 
What about coaches? Can they be “clutch”?

Andy Reid was thought of as a dude who couldn’t win the big one.

Now he has Mahomes. IIRC Mahomes has attributed much of his success to Reid’s play calling in late & close games.

Is Andy Reid “clutch”? Was he not clutch when he had McNabb?
:shrug:

That can be a fun topic too. Bill Belichick's record without Tom Brady is especially interesting.

As far as "clutch" and performing under pressure when it counts the most, I do think there are coaches and playcallers I'd prefer with the game on the line. I don't think many folks believe all coaches are equal when it comes to clock management or spotting a weakness in the opponent under pressure.

This could be another good topic.
 
What about coaches? Can they be “clutch”?

Andy Reid was thought of as a dude who couldn’t win the big one.

Now he has Mahomes. IIRC Mahomes has attributed much of his success to Reid’s play calling in late & close games.

Is Andy Reid “clutch”? Was he not clutch when he had McNabb?
:shrug:
No one is clutch with McNabb. McNabb was only clutch when he had TO. But not clutch enough to be in good enough shape on the final drive to give his team a decent chance to win a superbowl while TO was running around on a broken ankle for 7-131 that day.
 
What about coaches? Can they be “clutch”?

Andy Reid was thought of as a dude who couldn’t win the big one.

Now he has Mahomes. IIRC Mahomes has attributed much of his success to Reid’s play calling in late & close games.

Is Andy Reid “clutch”? Was he not clutch when he had McNabb?
:shrug:
No one is clutch with McNabb. McNabb was only clutch when he had TO. But not clutch enough to be in good enough shape on the final drive to give his team a decent chance to win a superbowl while TO was running around on a broken ankle for 7-131 that day.
The cascading domino effect of clutchness.

McNabb with Owens was clutch by proxy, while McNabb’s anti-clutchness hindered Reid’s clutchness.

:)
 
Probably a cop out, but I'd lean towards a Justice Stewart stance on clutch; "won't try to define it, but I know it when I see it."
Which is actually fine - many such moments exist and are totally apparent in those moments.

We see a player rise up on the biggest stage in the biggest moment. And we say, “man, that was clutch!”

But that’s merely a point in time, not a perpetual state of being.

Making a list of guys who’ve been clutch according to any set of metrics assigned only serves that point; a look at the past. That’s what I meant earlier that by creating lists like this, it implies a projection forward. Like, we *expect* the players on that list to be clutch in the future because they have been in the past.

On the other hand, we can look back at a player’s career - say, Joe Montana, and say, “wow he was clutch!” based on the total body of work.

But even then, everyone would have to agree on the definition of “clutch”. Pretty sure we don’t have a quorum there.
 
Probably a cop out, but I'd lean towards a Justice Stewart stance on clutch; "won't try to define it, but I know it when I see it."
Which is actually fine - many such moments exist and are totally apparent in those moments.

We see a player rise up on the biggest stage in the biggest moment. And we say, “man, that was clutch!”

But that’s merely a point in time, not a perpetual state of being.

Making a list of guys who’ve been clutch according to any set of metrics assigned only serves that point; a look at the past. That’s what I meant earlier that by creating lists like this, it implies a projection forward. Like, we *expect* the players on that list to be clutch in the future because they have been in the past.

On the other hand, we can look back at a player’s career - say, Joe Montana, and say, “wow he was clutch!” based on the total body of work.

But even then, everyone would have to agree on the definition of “clutch”. Pretty sure we don’t have a quorum there.
Probably getting a bit meta here haha, but this is kind of where I was heading with my Eli comment. The more I thought about defining clutch, the more I thought it's not something driven by individuals but rather by circumstances. So individual moments will provide the opportunity for an athlete to either achieve or fail, where if they achieve we'd say they are "clutch", but without the proper circumstances, we could just as easily say they are just performing at a high level. Look at another player always associated with being clutch, Jordan, and look at lists of his clutch moments. Almost all include his game 5 of the 97 playoffs. Why was it clutch? Because he had food poisoning. That was a very specific circumstance that brought about the moment, more so than his play. He played like he usually does, just did so through adversity.

So, to me at least, it feels like circumstances need to be stacked against someone to be considered clutch. So while someone could have the ability to be considered clutch, if they are rarely put in dire circumstances, they rarely have the opportunity to add a check mark to their clutch tally. Looking at it this way, it could also explain why we see Tua and Cousins pushing up this list. Players who have higher instances of bad coaching, bad defenses, bad game scripts/play calling, and as some people pointed out even those individual players own prior mistakes; these are all necessary circumstances that have to be in place to give someone an opportunity for a clutch movement. When you're on a well coached team, with a great defense, who are typically holding leads in games, you don't really have these clutch opportunities. You're practically expected to perform and close out games. I dunno, just another way to look at it I guess.
 
Probably a cop out, but I'd lean towards a Justice Stewart stance on clutch; "won't try to define it, but I know it when I see it."
Which is actually fine - many such moments exist and are totally apparent in those moments.

We see a player rise up on the biggest stage in the biggest moment. And we say, “man, that was clutch!”

But that’s merely a point in time, not a perpetual state of being.

Making a list of guys who’ve been clutch according to any set of metrics assigned only serves that point; a look at the past. That’s what I meant earlier that by creating lists like this, it implies a projection forward. Like, we *expect* the players on that list to be clutch in the future because they have been in the past.

On the other hand, we can look back at a player’s career - say, Joe Montana, and say, “wow he was clutch!” based on the total body of work.

But even then, everyone would have to agree on the definition of “clutch”. Pretty sure we don’t have a quorum there.
Probably getting a bit meta here haha, but this is kind of where I was heading with my Eli comment. The more I thought about defining clutch, the more I thought it's not something driven by individuals but rather by circumstances. So individual moments will provide the opportunity for an athlete to either achieve or fail, where if they achieve we'd say they are "clutch", but without the proper circumstances, we could just as easily say they are just performing at a high level. Look at another player always associated with being clutch, Jordan, and look at lists of his clutch moments. Almost all include his game 5 of the 97 playoffs. Why was it clutch? Because he had food poisoning. That was a very specific circumstance that brought about the moment, more so than his play. He played like he usually does, just did so through adversity.

So, to me at least, it feels like circumstances need to be stacked against someone to be considered clutch. So while someone could have the ability to be considered clutch, if they are rarely put in dire circumstances, they rarely have the opportunity to add a check mark to their clutch tally. Looking at it this way, it could also explain why we see Tua and Cousins pushing up this list. Players who have higher instances of bad coaching, bad defenses, bad game scripts/play calling, and as some people pointed out even those individual players own prior mistakes; these are all necessary circumstances that have to be in place to give someone an opportunity for a clutch movement. When you're on a well coached team, with a great defense, who are typically holding leads in games, you don't really have these clutch opportunities. You're practically expected to perform and close out games. I dunno, just another way to look at it I guess.
It’s also kinda in the nature of sports fans and just humans in general to remember those great moments, while memory-holing the bad ones.

Let’s go back to poster child for “clutch” Joe Montana.

We had season tickets through the Montana years. There were a ton of clutch moments. Ask anyone about Montana and they’ll say “that guy was clutch!”

Pretty sure Chiefs fans remember a different Joe Montana. In 1993 he brought his 11-5 team to the divisional conference game only to get beaten by the Bills, 30-13.

That was arguably Montana’s best opportunity to be clutch, no? Everyone said he couldn’t take another team to the SB. For all his achievements there was chatter of his being a system guy under Walsh.

Earlier that year he also failed to be clutch - they could have had home field advantage and blew it.

Then in 1994, they went 9-7 and lost to the Dolphins in the wildcard game.

But no one outside of KC ever seems to mention those games Montana failed to come up big on the biggest stage.

He’s still thought of as captain clutch.

Seems like “clutch” is always more in the eye of the beholder than on the stat sheets. And that means “clutch” is only as good as what people choose to remember about a given player.
 
Seems like “clutch” is always more in the eye of the beholder than on the stat sheets. And that means “clutch” is only as good as what people choose to remember about a given player.

Agreed. And that was the primary point of the original post and article. The original article threw out the perceptions and went with stats.

But perception and actual stats often don't line up.

And perceptions are hard to change because that involves people coming around and changing their minds. Way easier to criticize the stats used or ask for new stats that support the perception. ;)
 
Thought this was interesting.

Playoff stats, per game

Cousins
1.75 TD
0.5 turnovers
96.5 rating
254yds
20 points

Burrow
1.4 TD
0.6 turnovers
93.8 rating
260yds
22 points

Vikings Defense
28ppg allowed
0 forced turnovers

Bengals Defense
18ppg allowed
13 forced turnovers
 

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