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Ravens Fan in ICU after fight (1 Viewer)

coyote5 said:
Throwing a plastic bottle and spitting are worlds apart.  Spitting on someone is a much more personal, visceral, disrespectful, confrontational attack than throwing, hypothetically, an empty plastic bottle.
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what if you spit in a bottle, then throw it at someone?

 
fantasycurse42 said:
There is always an unknown variable for each individual in these situations. Most actions have reactions, so if you are the initiator, you need to be prepared for that unknown variable.  
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This

If someone starts ####, they better be ready for what comes their way. Thinking to themselves "I don't deserve to be punched for what I just did" will not save them from indeed being punched.

 
We dont need to get into hypotheticals here.  Dude instigates something by throwing a bottle.  Targets of the bottle push the guy down.  They didnt kick his ### or keep beating on him or whatever.   The targets should not be punished for the result of the push,  rather should be punished (if warranted) equal to their actions.  Its unfortuante this dude if in a coma or whatever but he started it.  Had he not thrown the bottle, he would currently be in a non-coma state.  Its not like these guys went all Tony Soprano and curb-stomped his head after he was down. 

 
coyote5 said:
Throwing a plastic bottle and spitting are worlds apart.  Spitting on someone is a much more personal, visceral, disrespectful, confrontational attack than throwing, hypothetically, an empty plastic bottle.
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They're both basically the same in that the purpose is to cause shame to the individual getting spit on or thrown at. Shame really messes with the ego and leaves those who have been shamed with the perception that violence is the only real option they have. 

 
fantasycurse42 said:
There is always an unknown variable for each individual in these situations. Most actions have reactions, so if you are the initiator, you need to be prepared for that unknown variable.  
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Yes, I agree with this.  I'm just saying that doesn't make punching and pushing him down ok.

 
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whiskey7 said:
This

If someone starts ####, they better be ready for what comes their way. Thinking to themselves "I don't deserve to be punched for what I just did" will not save them from indeed being punched.
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Sure. But the guys who got the bottle thrown at them, their actions have consequences too. If they react violently, sometimes those consequences will put them in jail, and thinking "but that guy deserved to get punched" will not save them from that.

 
coyote5 said:
Yes, I agree with this.  I'm just saying that doesn't make punching and pushing him down ok.
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Agreed it does not.    Just shows you how stupidity can have serious repurcussions.  You go to an NFL game for a little fun and now someone is in a coma and two guys are looking at jail time all for what?   

 
fantasycurse42 said:
Can I give a hypothetical for those that don't think being hit with a bottle warrants a violent response:

Suppose instead of throwing a bottle at someone, you spit on them. Now, spitting obviously isn't going to cause much physical damage, so should you the individual who was spit on just walk away in this situation as well? 
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depends on the situation, doesn't it? 

if i'm in high school and some kid spits on me in front of my girlfriend i'm probably going to end up fighting the guy.

if i'm 22 at a bar and some guy accidentally spits in my direction and gets too close to my shoe.. i might fight the guy.

if i'm 31 and some guy spits on me at a football game i'm probably going to point him out to security and get him tossed. mainly because 1) i don't want to get ejected and miss the rest of the game, 2) i don't want to possibly lose my season tickets, 3) i don't want to get swarmed by other people and potentially pummeled, 4) i don't want to get arrested for fighting because i'm ####### 31 and have a wife and kids

as we get older our penchant for spontaneous violence wanes. especially in situations where it really isn't warranted or particularly necessary to save one's own life.

 
Steeler said:
 The targets should not be punished for the result of the push,  
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unfortunately, that's not how the law works

the "well, i only pushed him i didn't intend to kill him" defense won't get you off scot-free.  you're definitely getting arrested and then it's up to the judge and jury to determine your fate.

eta:  Wisconsin law


Great Bodily Harm (Aggravated Battery)


It is also a felony in Wisconsin, called aggravated battery, to:

  • intentionally cause great bodily harm to a person
  • cause great bodily harm by an act intended to cause mere bodily harm, or
  • intentionally cause mere bodily harm by an act that creates a significant risk of great bodily injury.
Great bodily harm is an injury that creates a risk of death or causes permanent disfigurement or permanent or lasting loss or impairment of any body part.

(Wis. Stat. §§ 939.22, 940.19, 940.195.)

Cutting off a person’s ear and stabbing someone in the chest are examples of great bodily harm. If a defendant punched someone in the face and the victim fell over and the victim’s skull cracked, that would probably be considered an act that was intended to cause mere bodily harm but caused great bodily harm.


Class E felony


Aggravated battery that intends to cause and causes great bodily injury is a Class E felony, punishable by up to 15 years’ imprisonment and a fine of up to $50,000.

http://statelaws.findlaw.com/wisconsin-law/wisconsin-involuntary-manslaughter-law.html

If a killing was accidental, is it a crime? Involuntary manslaughter, also known as criminally negligent manslaughter in some states, occurs when a person accidentally kills another due to his or her own criminal negligence or recklessness. Unlike first or second degree (intentional) murder, with involuntary manslaughter, the defendant had no intention of killing anyone, but their careless or reckless actions caused another person to die.


Elements of the Offense


Three elements must be satisfied in order for someone to be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter:

  1. Someone was killed as a result of act by the defendant.
  2. The act either was inherently dangerous to others or done with reckless disregard for human life.
  3. The defendant knew or should have known his or her conduct was a threat to the lives of others.



Penalty



Criminal sentences in Wisconsin vary based on the level or class of felony. The above homicide crimes are punished by:

  • Class C Felony - Imprisonment up to 40 years and a fine up to $100,000 (homicide by intoxicated use of a vehicle with prior convictions or while using an IID)
  • Class D Felony - Imprisonment up to 25 years and a fine up to $100,000 (second-degree reckless homicide, homicide by intoxicated use of a vehicle or gun)
  • Class G Felony - Imprisonment up to 10 years and a fine up to $25,000 (homicide by negligent: control of a vicious animal, handling of weapons/explosives/fire, or operation of a vehicle)

 
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CBusAlex said:
Sure. But the guys who got the bottle thrown at them, their actions have consequences too. If they react violently, sometimes those consequences will put them in jail, and thinking "but that guy deserved to get punched" will not save them from that.
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Absolutely. But the fact that the Raider's fan(s) are in legal trouble now is small consolation to the Raven's fan if he has diminished QOL or dies (obviously). Point I was trying to make is Raven's fan cant rely on the Raider's fans to not react physically just because that would be the smart and/or legal thing for them to do. If he's going to huck a bottle at someone, he needs to accept that there is likely going to be a reaction and that reaction may be excessive given the provocation.

I think way too many people in this country feel entitled to say/do whatever they want trusting that the other guy will exercise good judgment/restraint because of the consequences to them. Before I ####-off to someone, I better be ready to defend myself. I cant rely on the other guy's fear of going to jail for kicking my ### will stop him from kicking my ###.  

 
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mr. furley said:
If a killing was accidental, is it a crime? Involuntary manslaughter, also known as criminally negligent manslaughter in some states, occurs when a person accidentally kills another due to his or her own criminal negligence or recklessness. Unlike first or second degree (intentional) murder, with involuntary manslaughter, the defendant had no intention of killing anyone, but their careless or reckless actions caused another person to die.
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One could argue, however, regarding the man who threw the bottle, that it was he who caused himself to die because of his careless and/or reckless actions, no?

 
Elements of the Offense


Three elements must be satisfied in order for someone to be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter:

  1. Someone was killed as a result of act by the defendant.
  2. The act either was inherently dangerous to others or done with reckless disregard for human life.
  3. The defendant knew or should have known his or her conduct was a threat to the lives of others.
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Should someone know that a push can kill someone?  Probably a one in a billion chance that a push results in someone's death.

 
cstu said:
Should someone know that a push can kill someone?  Probably a one in a billion chance that a push results in someone's death.
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They already pretty much admitted to assault by saying they pushed the guy after he threw a bottle at them. They're then responsible for any results that come out of that assault. 

 
Tom Skerritt said:
One could argue, however, regarding the man who threw the bottle, that it was he who caused himself to die because of his careless and/or reckless actions, no?
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that's up to a jury of 12 but i'd have to say the answer to that is absolutely not

throwing a bottle at someone.. a plastic one at that.. is not sufficient action to result in a defendant taking your life.

 
cstu said:
Should someone know that a push can kill someone?  Probably a one in a billion chance that a push results in someone's death.
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a reasonable, rational human being should be well able to determine that a push could result in someone's death, yes.

regardless of what you think this is why we have law. so that yahoo's don't go around saying "well, i had no idea that would happen".  that's not really much of a defense. someone dies as a result of your action, whether intentional or not, pretty good chance you're getting punished. get a good lawyer and cross your fingers that the 12 people deciding your fate don't think you look like a smug #####.

sort of the reason why we have involuntary manslaughter charges

the "oops, i didn't mean it" defense is worthless and... pretty naive

 
My guess is that as the bottle was leaving his fingers he suddenly remembered that he's 55 and not a tough guy anymore.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
There is always an unknown variable for each individual in these situations. Most actions have reactions, so if you are the initiator, you need to be prepared for that unknown variable.  
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If you react to the initiator with violence, you need to be prepared that the unknown variable results in death.

 
Hope the guy recovers. Sucks for everyone involved. I get less interested in football everyday. 

 
mr. furley said:
throwing a bottle at someone.. a plastic one at that.. is not sufficient action to result in a defendant taking your life.
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It's not like they shot him.  What if the Raider guy had lost his balance when the bottle was thrown at him and he tripped over the bleachers and cracked his skull?  Then you'd be sitting here saying "yelling Ravens suck is not sufficient action to result in someone murdering you".

Legally, they're probably screwed.  Realistically, this guy was asking for a fight.  We've all shoved someone before, we just haven't had the freak occurrence of them tripping and busting their head open, or we'd all be in jail.

 
Everyone is responsible for their actions.  The guys who pushed him could have just as easily walked away or reported the guy who threw the bottle.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
It's not like they shot him.  What if the Raider guy had lost his balance when the bottle was thrown at him and he tripped over the bleachers and cracked his skull?  Then you'd be sitting here saying "yelling Ravens suck is not sufficient action to result in someone murdering you".

Legally, they're probably screwed.  Realistically, this guy was asking for a fight.  We've all shoved someone before, we just haven't had the freak occurrence of them tripping and busting their head open, or we'd all be in jail.
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you can argue against the law all you want. you're wrong but you can keep arguing.

just because you got in a fight and nobody died doesn't mean if someone had died you could claim "didn't mean it" as a defense.  well, i guess you could get on the stand and say "yeah, but i didn't mean it.. so.. you can't convict me of anything." and thumb your nose at the jury. good luck with that.

there's a reason people with families, jobs, etc. don't go around getting in to fights. because we realize there's too much to lose if something goes haywire. that can be as simple as breaking a knuckle, getting stitches or getting locked up in the drunk tank for the weekend.. or losing one's job because you got arrested... or accidentally doing something that results in the death of another person.

you go right ahead and tell yourself that you can push people and not worry about what happens if they step backwards off a curb and fall in front of a passing car.  your fault whether you want it to be or not.

 
this is like dealing with my kids... only 2-3 years ago when they were 5 and 3.

my oldest's defense was always "yeah, i pushed her, she fell and she skinned her knee.. BUT I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG! SHE WAS REALLY ANNOYING ME!"

look, i get it, i know the youngest was being a little #### by playing the "i am going to follow you around the house and repeat everything you say for the next 3 hours" game but that doesn't make shoving her to the ground ok. it just doesn't. if she poked you in the chest, you shoved her, she fell and bruised her elbow.. guess who's getting a timeout?

 
Funkley said:
My guess is that as the bottle was leaving his fingers he suddenly remembered that he's 55 and not a tough guy anymore.
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I'm going to disagree, respectfully.  Anyone who is the type of person to fling an object, from a distance, at another, in a crowd, risking striking innocent bystanders, instead of walking over and confronting an individual face to face was never a tough guy.  Flinging stuff is the move of a chimp or a #####, not a tough guy.  Hell, even David would be considered a ##### for what he did to Goliath were it not apparent that Goliath was advancing witnessing the impending fling, and likely would have throttled David and his whole army had David missed.

 
My kids always want to go to an NFL game and this is exactly what I think is going to happen.  I mean I don't think someone will die, but the foul language and drunken hillbillies all running around makes for a perfect scenario for a fight.  With the cost to park and the sky high cost of food/drinks it just isn't worth it.  For the price of one NFL game I can get NFL Sunday ticket (which is free every year) and watch in the comfort of my own home, and I can throw empty beer cans at my wife all day without going to jail. 

 
mr. furley said:
you can argue against the law all you want. you're wrong but you can keep arguing.

just because you got in a fight and nobody died doesn't mean if someone had died you could claim "didn't mean it" as a defense.  well, i guess you could get on the stand and say "yeah, but i didn't mean it.. so.. you can't convict me of anything." and thumb your nose at the jury. good luck with that.

there's a reason people with families, jobs, etc. don't go around getting in to fights. because we realize there's too much to lose if something goes haywire. that can be as simple as breaking a knuckle, getting stitches or getting locked up in the drunk tank for the weekend.. or losing one's job because you got arrested... or accidentally doing something that results in the death of another person.

you go right ahead and tell yourself that you can push people and not worry about what happens if they step backwards off a curb and fall in front of a passing car.  your fault whether you want it to be or not.
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I didn't argue with the law at all.  I explicitly said they were probably screwed legally.  My issue was with you characterizing it as them deciding to kill him because he threw a bottle at them.  

Throwing a bottle at someone may not be "sufficient action for them to kill you", but a shove is probably fair.  The bottle guy was the first one to initiate physical contact here he's at least as much to blame, even if not in a legal sense.

 
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Apparently the Ravens Fan gave a thumbs-up  :thumbup:  to doctors upon request. An encouraging sign for sure, but still in critical condition. Hope he continues to improve. :thumbup:

 
SHIZNITTTT said:
My kids always want to go to an NFL game and this is exactly what I think is going to happen.  I mean I don't think someone will die, but the foul language and drunken hillbillies all running around makes for a perfect scenario for a fight.  With the cost to park and the sky high cost of food/drinks it just isn't worth it.  For the price of one NFL game I can get NFL Sunday ticket (which is free every year) and watch in the comfort of my own home, and I can throw empty beer cans at my wife all day without going to jail. 
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Based on my experience, really Depends where you go.  Go to Oakland, Philly, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, NY, even Cincinnati, - you are going to see and hear plenty even if wearing the home team colors... and not all of it is awful depending upon the age of the kids, but certainly is going to be a rough crowd. Go to Indianapolis, in particular, I've never seen more well behaved fans anywhere... and that is being there wearing the "wrong" colors on more than one occasion.  I wouldn't not go just because some drunk near me might act like an ###. I also agree, the cost of tickets, parking etc, make going more than once or twice a year cost prohibitive, particularly when you watch redzone and watch every game......

 
Angry Beavers said:
Based on my experience, really Depends where you go.  Go to Oakland, Philly, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, NY, even Cincinnati, - you are going to see and hear plenty even if wearing the home team colors... and not all of it is awful depending upon the age of the kids, but certainly is going to be a rough crowd. Go to Indianapolis, in particular, I've never seen more well behaved fans anywhere... and that is being there wearing the "wrong" colors on more than one occasion.  I wouldn't not go just because some drunk near me might act like an ###. I also agree, the cost of tickets, parking etc, make going more than once or twice a year cost prohibitive, particularly when you watch redzone and watch every game......
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There are no fights at Ford Field in Detroit because there in no emotion towards the team.

 
cstu said:
Paying money to watch football with ###holes is nuts, I can do that for free at Thanksgiving.
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I hate to admit that I rarely like or agree with a lot of the things that you say in these forums--but this particular quote is nothing short of legendary. Lol.  I wish I could give you ten likes for it.  

 
SHIZNITTTT said:
My kids always want to go to an NFL game and this is exactly what I think is going to happen.  I mean I don't think someone will die, but the foul language and drunken hillbillies all running around makes for a perfect scenario for a fight.  With the cost to park and the sky high cost of food/drinks it just isn't worth it.  For the price of one NFL game I can get NFL Sunday ticket (which is free every year) and watch in the comfort of my own home, and I can throw empty beer cans at my wife all day without going to jail. 
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I started taking my kids to Steelers games around age 6 or 7 and they are closing in on their 30s now (my oldest is 31).  Never saw a fight in the stands although there were times when some foul language was used.   I stopped it quickly by threatening to ground them.   :P

Seriously I've been to games where a drunk shouted out an obscenity but it doesn't happen very often and now all you have to do is text security to shut them up.  

When you consider that a million people go to NFL games each week the number of incidents like this are pretty rare. 

 
At home games at Soldier Field, one member of the McCaskey family will walk around the stadium wearing opposing colors and kick out Bears fans who heckle him.

 
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