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RB Chase Edmonds, TB (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter EBF
- Start date
Faust
MVP
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King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Eno is a Waldman favorite. I guess him being inactive but not thrown on the practice squad says they like him enough that they don’t want someone to poach him anyway.
rockaction
Footballguy
Jonathan Ward is also highly thought of by Waldman and was active this year a bunch, though mostly on special teams.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I know you’re just reporting the quote, so this isn’t directed at you Faust, but we’ve heard this song before.
I’ll believe the Cards make Edmond a feature back going into a season when I see it.
Pretty sure Cliff made a statement like this before they brought in Drake.
That all said, kinda kicking myself as I could have had Chase at a very reasonable price last year & I put a package together for Carson instead.
I’ll believe the Cards make Edmond a feature back going into a season when I see it.
Pretty sure Cliff made a statement like this before they brought in Drake.
That all said, kinda kicking myself as I could have had Chase at a very reasonable price last year & I put a package together for Carson instead.
Catbird
Footballguy
Edmonds seems to do better with a lighter load. I think they at least need a complimentary pounding back for the short but necessary yards, even if the guy doesn't have even Drake's talent level. Edmonds could be fantasy productive being the receiving backin that offense and longer yardage back, which might help also with his frequent minor injuries
rschroeder1
Footballguy
No reason to believe the coach speak, and I also believe Edmonds is a better real-life player as a complimentary back. I think there's some reason for optimism heading into next year. For transparency, he's a likely keeper for me for next year.
His yards per carry and yards per catch decreased by 0.8 and 1.2 (approximately) after Murray's injury at Seattle. I'm excluding the first Seattle game when Edmonds' touches ramped up after Drake's injury, and the Miami game when he started. Even with those big chunks out, he saw quite the drop-off.
My concern is that his usage often defied explanation. There just seemed to be no rhyme or reason sometimes as to why he was on the field, or why he wasn't. His one start against Miami frustrated me in that Kingsbury essentially tried to use him exactly like Drake, which didn't seem very logical to me.
Edmonds passes the eye test for me as a pass catcher and change of pace back. With one significant-ish injury in Murray's past now, I'm curious if his designed running gets curtailed a bit. For example, it seemed there was more of an emphasis at the goal line on Drake after the injury. A little more pass-catching work at the goal line would be a huge boost for Edmonds' fortunes.
His yards per carry and yards per catch decreased by 0.8 and 1.2 (approximately) after Murray's injury at Seattle. I'm excluding the first Seattle game when Edmonds' touches ramped up after Drake's injury, and the Miami game when he started. Even with those big chunks out, he saw quite the drop-off.
My concern is that his usage often defied explanation. There just seemed to be no rhyme or reason sometimes as to why he was on the field, or why he wasn't. His one start against Miami frustrated me in that Kingsbury essentially tried to use him exactly like Drake, which didn't seem very logical to me.
Edmonds passes the eye test for me as a pass catcher and change of pace back. With one significant-ish injury in Murray's past now, I'm curious if his designed running gets curtailed a bit. For example, it seemed there was more of an emphasis at the goal line on Drake after the injury. A little more pass-catching work at the goal line would be a huge boost for Edmonds' fortunes.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Interesting tweet now that Conner is there and the Cards don't necessarily look like they'll be selecting anybody with top 49 pick (though they're not precluded from that by the Conner signing, just less likely. Perhaps the signing was for depth this year alone, as both Edmonds and Conner will be on one-year deals). Ian Hartitz, fantasy editor at PFF, tweeted out
Ian Hartitz
@Ihartitz
·12m
After much thought and consideration: I'm in on Chase Edmonds RB2 szn
Ian Hartitz
@Ihartitz
·12m
After much thought and consideration: I'm in on Chase Edmonds RB2 szn
rschroeder1
Footballguy
Edmonds is a likely keeper for me in a league in which our rosters are rolling over from 2019...so things are a bit wacky.
I'm pretty happy with the Conner signing. Not sure what scenario could really be better for Edmonds, as I have not expected him to be a three-down back.
With AZ's limited draft capital, hopefully this will have them out on the top 3 RBs that people keep grouping together.
I would think Edmonds' touch share should increase in a timeshare with Conner as opposed to Drake; solid RB2 has been my hope all along and I'm liking the direction as of now.
I'm pretty happy with the Conner signing. Not sure what scenario could really be better for Edmonds, as I have not expected him to be a three-down back.
With AZ's limited draft capital, hopefully this will have them out on the top 3 RBs that people keep grouping together.
I would think Edmonds' touch share should increase in a timeshare with Conner as opposed to Drake; solid RB2 has been my hope all along and I'm liking the direction as of now.
jtd13
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I KNEW IT!
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
If Conner is healthy I expect the Cards to use him as an early down & short yardage guy.rschroeder1 said:
The better scenario for Edmonds would have been if the Cards didn’t sign a running back & tabbed Edmonds a 3-down guy.
if I had roster limits & Edmonds, I’m honestly not sure if keep him at this point. If you can sell, I’d try to do that.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Conner hasn’t been a good RB in a couple years. They were going to add a rb simply because the depth chart was lacking bodies. If they had signed gio or Phillip Lindsey or drafted someone early with their limited draft stock it would have taken a ton of value away. This signing tells me a couple things- that Benjamin isn’t likely a threat to take the job from edmunds, that edmunds will retain the passing work, and that he will be the lead back this year. It’s really the best case for edmunds this off-season- they didn’t go after a higher priced rb or draft a replacement.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
He’s a little guy. Dynamic, and he can produce a lot with limited touches, but he’s never been a 3 down back. Three 10+ carry games in three years. Your scenario doesn’t seem all that realistic. IMO.
Pretty sure you’re a dynasty player and I’m redraft so we have different perspectives, but personally I love guys like Chase Edmonds. I especially love these kind of signings bc it will keep his ADP suppressed. Last year my RB2 & Flex guys were Edmonds, Hines, McKissic & Jamaal Williams. All in a time share or backup roles but they came cheap or free and I managed to hit pretty good on spot starting them in full PPR. If you have a reliable RB1 that you spent a lot of draft capital on, these satellite backs from the mid to late rounds are the guys to own (redraft, PPR.)
MAC_32
Footballguy
These are also useful types in dynasty. The priority is to get a couple horses, but once that's accomplished these types serve as sufficient contingency plans. Sometimes they hit and other times they miss, but since they're in case of emergency break open glass types it's no big deal if it's the latter. If it is some kind of the former then that opens up both trading and deployment opportunities.
Here we go again with "best case scenario".
For starters, how does this say anything about Benjamin not likely being a threat to take the job from Edmunds? I agree that he's not likely to do so, but no idea how you think this signing moves the needle on that. They needed another RB either way, right?
Secondly, Conner is a pretty good pass catcher- he has more receptions than both Lindsay and Gio over the last 3 seasons (more than Drake as well), so that doesn't seem to make much sense either.
Finally, we haven't had the draft yet so seems premature to write off them drafting a replacement. Again, doesn't seem likely, but it didn't seem likely before this signing with their limited draft picks.
Seems very similar to the Jacksonville situation to me- if you take a step back and look at it objectively it seems like a relatively neutral signing. Sure, it could have been worse, but it's far from "best case scenario" IMO. Heck, I'd argue that at least one of the guys you listed as someone who would have taken a ton of value away would have been better- Gio Bernard, heading into his 30 y.o. and 9th NFL season with a 3.4 ypc over his last 3 years, isn't a threat to any decent RB's value.
rschroeder1
Footballguy
I guess I read the tea leaves a little differently. I'll reiterate for transparency that Edmonds is a likely keeper for me in '21 due to rosters rolling over from '19.Here we go again with "best case scenario".
For starters, how does this say anything about Benjamin not likely being a threat to take the job from Edmunds? I agree that he's not likely to do so, but no idea how you think this signing moves the needle on that. They needed another RB either way, right?
Secondly, Conner is a pretty good pass catcher- he has more receptions than both Lindsay and Gio over the last 3 seasons (more than Drake as well), so that doesn't seem to make much sense either.
Finally, we haven't had the draft yet so seems premature to write off them drafting a replacement. Again, doesn't seem likely, but it didn't seem likely before this signing with their limited draft picks.
Seems very similar to the Jacksonville situation to me- if you take a step back and look at it objectively it seems like a relatively neutral signing. Sure, it could have been worse, but it's far from "best case scenario" IMO. Heck, I'd argue that at least one of the guys you listed as someone who would have taken a ton of value away would have been better- Gio Bernard, heading into his 30 y.o. and 9th NFL season with a 3.4 ypc over his last 3 years, isn't a threat to any decent RB's value.
The contract Conner signed, to me, indicates how the league as a whole values or predicts his play moving forward. Simply put, he could't get a clear-cut starting money. Of course that doesn't mean he won't be the starter or lead back in AZ, but it does clue us in to how the real football evaluators, flawed as some may be, view Conner.
"Best case scenario" can mean a lot of different things to different people, which is fine. It was a given the Cardinals would add another running back. The question to me was whether the new RB would keep Edmonds in the role he held with Drake as the lead back, which I think we could reasonably say was a top-level RB3 for a 12-team league or a back-end RB3 for a 10-team league, or whether Edmonds' role could be expanded to the point he's a usable weekly RB2 for 12 or back-end RB 2 to top RB3 for 10. I believe the signing of Conner offers the path toward RB2 status (my keeper league is 12 teams, for the record).
It's a unique case because of AZ's draft capital, with only picks in 1-2-5-7-7. For a team looking to compete in '21, the signing of a proven football player in Conner, whatever you think of him, seems to decrease the likelihood that one of the top rookie RBs is drafted. I would be much more worried about an Etienne or Javonte Williams coming in. That still could happen, but I believe the chances are now reduced.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I disagree with, well, all of this.
This is a very rose-colored glasses view of signing a RB better suited to early down work. There’s no way they’re bringing in Conner as a backup. The money doesn’t mean anything except it’s a super soft FA market because of the lower cap & lack of need by so many teams.
it doesn’t matter in the slightest what any of us thinks Conner has left in the tank, it’s clear from this signing that the AZ Cards think he has something left in the tank. And they likely view Conner as better than Benjamin.
I view the Conner signing *exactly* as I viewed the Drake signing.
And I was actually considering trading for Edmonds twice this offseason. There’s a good discussion on the dynasty value topic that @rockaction& I were engaged in that covers most of the reasons why I didn’t pull the trigger.
Like him or not, James Conner will be the starting / early down RB for the 2021 Cards & so long as he stays healthy he’s going to get whatever goal line / RZ work that their QB doesn’t vulture. And if he does get hurt, don’t be shocked if Benjamin fills his role over Edmonds.
I like Edmonds. I think he has talent and is underutilized in AZ. But his draft stock will not make him a huge bargain - it will be rightfully deflated because he loses value with this signing.
And don’t be shocked if they draft a RB, too. That still looks large, IMO.
I won’t draft Edmonds in my redraft & I wouldn’t pay anything for him in dynasty. Not because I don’t like him, but because AZ doesn’t use him enough to be worth the roster spot.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Or it could have nothing to do with how the league views him & have everything to do with how soft the FA market is for RBs in a cap-reduced offseason.
Apply your statement to Leonard Fournette - do the Bucs not view him as a significant contributor because he re-signed at a steep discount?
More realistically one could say that the only RB signing of real significance was Carson.
The money Conner took is irrelevant to anything other than what AZ offered him & what Conner was willing to play for. It’s more like a prove-it deal, which can be inspiring for a player like him to go balls out in 2021 hoping for a big contract in ‘22.
Any way you slice it, Conner is likely to be the 1-2 down between the tackles and GL back, regardless of what they paid him. Whether I buy a Mercedes or a Honda, they both get me to where I want to go. Cards went bargain hunting - Conner has shown he can be a feature back in the past, and he got what the market dictated he was worth. AZ bought themselves a Honda & they’re more than likely gonna drive it into the ground since it’s a cheap and short-term commitment.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
I’m not an edmunds owner, fwiw. They’ll share the backfield a bit but edmunds will get the majority touches imo. He will also retain all the receiving down work.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
jtd13
Footballguy
At very least, the dolphins didn't view him as worth any more than Malcolm Brown. They got pretty much identical contracts.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
This signing gives them draft flexibility. They only have so many picks, didn’t want to use one on rb. Conner is good enough to provide some value. He’s quite a bit removed from being fantasy relevant; I don’t know why you’d think signing here, now, would be what revives him.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
That just tells me that the market is super soft & that the Dolphins already have Gaskin, who’s proved to be an effective between the tackles runner.
And who knows - maybe Conner was asking for more when Brown was signed & ended up settling for the Cards offer because again, it’s a super soft FA market.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Because the Arizona Cardinals aren’t playing fantasy football. They’re playing real life football.
There’s little need to “revive” Conner. He’s been injured. Now he’s reportedly healthy. Injuries deflate value & production. Healthy players play better.
i would think all of this goes without saying. Hey, remember when the Pats signed Corey Dillon at a steep discount because the league thought he was washed? Yeah.
I’m not saying Conner is Dillon, I’m just speaking to your reasoning here.
If the Cards wanted Edmonds to be the feature back, they wouldn’t have signed Drake last year.
Probably best to agree to disagree. You believe Edmonds is going to be featured & Conner will ride the bench, and I see Edmonds as a DND player for FF purposes because of the Conner signing.
You have to remember, it's the first time in forever that the cap went down due to covid, which screwed up the cap situation for most teams and has softened the FA market. That said, I'm not some huge Connor fan, and I agree that his contract doesn't mean clear-cut starter money. It's more "let's bring in a guy who has performed in the past and see if he can stay healthy and help us". If he does it could be a bargain, if he doesn't it didn't cost them much.
"Best case scenario" has a pretty clear definition, it essentially means no other outcomes could have been better. I'm not one to play the semantics game, but I can think of plenty of better outcomes for Edmonds owners, including some that poster gave that he thinks would have taken a ton of his value away (Gio, for instance).
Time will tell how this all plays out, a messy RBBC for fantasy seems to have the best odds of playing out, but I just don't follow really any of the logic the other poster wrote lol. I don't think this is anywhere close to best case scenario, I don't think this changes anything about Benjamin, and I don't think it ensures that Edmonds will retain the passing work or be the lead back this year.
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Wigglytuff's Gruff
Footballguy
James Conner scored quite a lot of fantasy points at the beginning of last season, first 8 games or so he was a top 10-15 RB.
People's memories seem to be somewhat short when they suggest it's been a long time since he was relevant.
He's also a good pass catcher.
Pittsburgh lost the plot down the stretch last year and their short yardage game was basically 2-5 yard passes rather than carries. He might not be special but he's not some useless scrub when he's on the field (which is a more legit concern than his football ability).
People's memories seem to be somewhat short when they suggest it's been a long time since he was relevant.
He's also a good pass catcher.
Pittsburgh lost the plot down the stretch last year and their short yardage game was basically 2-5 yard passes rather than carries. He might not be special but he's not some useless scrub when he's on the field (which is a more legit concern than his football ability).
rschroeder1
Footballguy
I guess I expected some RB competition and not a bottom-barrel back. I accept that Edmonds is not going to be a three-down back and another RB was coming in. But enough about the best case scenario lol.
As for Eno Benjamin, I gotta say I don't see where he fits in here. Unless I'm missing something, his current NFL stats are: 0 carries, 0 targets. I can't fathom a forecast from there.
In regard to Edmonds, I'll leave it at this. Something happened in '20. For some reason, his targets and carries shot up. For some reason, his snap counts increased from '19 to '20, to the point that in the second half he was averaging around 50% of the snaps. He had relatively the same coaching staff in '19 and '20. Their perception of him changed year-over-year.
It's entirely possible he hit his ceiling in '20, but I'm willing to wager a bit on continued progression. For a 12 team league, he was RB28 in in .5 PPR for '20. The progression to RB2 isn't going to take much from there. That's the point I'm trying to make, however poorly I'm stating it!
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
well said. Agreed 100%
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Or Drake wasn’t as effective/healthy as they’d have liked and their QB hurt his leg/hip, so there were more RB touches.
i’d have to check the numbers to see how this bears out, but I don’t believe anyone on the Cards came to work one day and said, “hey, ya know - this Edmonds kid we’ve had on the roster for years, he looks different! Let’s use him more.”
my money’s on circumstance, not “a player on the rise”.
It’s a wager I think you’d lose. Smart money is on Conner 1-2, Edmonds scat back/receiving back. Both middling value because their rushing QB will likely vulture a significant number of RuTd.
My $.02
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
This exactly. Conner’s issue has never been talent, it’s been health.
And great point about the Steelers offense. Their OL was flat out awful. BB would throw 2-4 yards to JuJu - that was their short yardage game. It’s not Ike Conner sucked and some other back like Benny Snell became Walter Payton.
I don’t recall any RB having much success in PIT.
I think AZ got a bargain if Conner can stay healthy.
rschroeder1
Footballguy
With all due respect, I think you are incorrect here.
2019, the first year of the Kingsbury regime, was Edmonds' second year in the league. So it seems entirely possible that they actually did evaluate their own player on their own roster. As he hadn't been in the league "for years."
Examining his stats as a pure back-up gives a pretty clear picture. In the six games in which he was Johnson's back up to start '19, he averaged 5.6 chances per game (carries and targets). Of course, Edmonds then had a start against NYG, got hurt against NO, missed three games, the Cards' traded for Drake, and Edmonds was not used m much in the last four games of the '19 season. Whether that was for health or a coach's decision, I will not speculate.
As a pure back-up in '20, excluding the start against Miami and knocking out the 16th and final game in which Murray did not start, Edmonds' chances rose to 8.6.
His "back-up" snap counts rose from 17/game to 31/game year-over-year.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
He wasn’t a “pure backup” last year, he was part of a committee.
Disagree all you like - the proof that Edmonds isn’t viewed as a feature back by the Cards is in the pudding that they signed Drake last year & Conner this year.
Edmonds has started games. And he’s been banged up almost every time. The Cards clearly see that Edmonds is more effective when his touches are reduced & when they’re not trying to bang him between the tackles. And he is virtually a zero-value GL asset.
Mark my words: barring injury, James Conner is your 2021 early down and GL back in AZ.
rschroeder1
Footballguy
Ignoring "official starts," which aren't relevant, Edmonds has for all intents and purposes started three games in his career.
2019 - Week 7 at NYG
2019 - Week 8 at NO
2020 - Week 8 vs. MIA
He sustained an injury in one of those three starts. If that's a metric you want to use, that's fine, but that seems awfully selective. It's football. Injuries happen.
In '19, Edmonds became the de facto started due to what I think we could fairly say was poor or inefficient play from David Johnson. Or Johnson was actually hurt for the NYG game and Kingsbury toyed with all of us. Regardless, Edmonds started the next game, too. The Cardinals traded for Drake when Edmonds got hurt and couldn't play. That's no slam on Drake and no statement on Edmonds. It's simply the facts.
The question for '21 is what Edmonds' role in the committee will be. If you don't see any progression in his three-year career, that's fine. I see player progression based on the statistics year-over-year. I see increased usage based on the statistics year-over-year. The question then is whether he has hit his ceiling or whether we should expect continued uptick in involvement.
Choosing Conner OR Edmonds is an entirely different question. I don't want to make this just about my league, but some leagues are deep enough that it's not either-or.
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MAC_32
Footballguy
He had a stretch of games like that in 2018 too. That hasn't been his issue. Sustaining that level of play over a full season is.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
@Snorkelson "They’ll share the backfield a bit but edmunds will get the majority touches imo. He will also retain all the receiving down work."
Rephrase that 5x and Snork's a 1-person debate team. lol
MAC_32
Footballguy
If that's what he meant then I stand corrected. It just wasn't how I interpreted it. I think this is and will be a fluid situation into the season, but that Edmonds is starting from ahead...so long as he clears the pick 49 hurdle in 2.5 weeks.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Yeah this doesn’t imply feature back exactly. I think if it’s a 60-40 split the 60 will be edmunds.
