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RB Dalvin Cook, DAL (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Mattison instead of Murray has negligible effect on Cook.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
We were talking about it a bit in the Vikings thread.
My initial reaction to Mattison was negative because he isn't a RB I was looking at for fantasy at all before the draft.
While Matt Asiata and Latavius Murray have been useful RB at times when starters were injured, in my opinion they were not players the team could rely on exclusively, even when Cook was out, Murray runs hot and cold, generally running better with his early carries than his later ones.
Mattison is supposedly a bell cow type RB who did have high numbers of carries in college. He runs between the tackles with some good pad level and decent footwork to change gaps. He has some decent burst and can move a pile. He can catch the ball pretty well. He needs to work on his blocking but he has the size to be successful there.
To me Mattison was not worth a 3rd round pick. The Vikings did trade down multiple times before selecting him with pick 102.
The biggest reason to be interested in Mattison is because of Dalvin Cooks injuries his first two seasons. If Cook misses time again then Mattison will be busy.
When Cook is healthy I don't expect Mattison to do much. Maybe he can win short yardage role (Murray lost this to Cook last season despite the size difference) that they might like to save Cook from (one of Cooks weakest traits is runnning with power).
I don't see any impact on Cooks value. At best Mattison gets as much action as Murray did.
The best thing I can say in Mattisons favor is that Kubiak has found good RB with later picks who no one had heard of before but turned out to be a great fit for the ZBS blocking scheme they run.
kittenmittens
Footballguy
I think there is some impact on Cook's value. I don't think the Vikings would invest a 3rd rounder if they were happy with their current RB room, and I think Mattison is good enough to push for some touches. He looks a lot more laterally dynamic than Murray was and is an all purpose type of back.
At minimum it is a hedge against Cook getting hurt again. To me this also says that they want to help Cook stay healthy by managing his workload a bit...
I think this is a little like the Gurley/Henderson situation in LAR in that it doesn't seem like a great landing spot for Mattison, but he will probably get usage with decent talent and draft capital.
I seem to be leading the hype train on this one, but full disclosure I was also saying I expected the Vikings to draft a good RB somewhat highly. I also liked Mattison going in to the draft after a few scouts including Waldman touted him... So.. I'm biased.
At minimum it is a hedge against Cook getting hurt again. To me this also says that they want to help Cook stay healthy by managing his workload a bit...
I think this is a little like the Gurley/Henderson situation in LAR in that it doesn't seem like a great landing spot for Mattison, but he will probably get usage with decent talent and draft capital.
I seem to be leading the hype train on this one, but full disclosure I was also saying I expected the Vikings to draft a good RB somewhat highly. I also liked Mattison going in to the draft after a few scouts including Waldman touted him... So.. I'm biased.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I don't think it impacts Cooks role much if at all. If anything Cook has been underutilized in his time with the Vikings so far.
I totally agree with you that Mattison looks better with his footwork and change of direction ability than Murray did.
When thinking about how much importance the Vikings put on this 2nd RB role I think you should consider that the Vikings asked Murray to take a pay cut to veteran minimum last year, if he didn't accept they were going to let him go and move on with CJ Ham and Matt Boone as Cooks back up. Murray accepted the pay cut because he wanted to stay with the team.
Matt Boone didn't look good last year. He missed holes. He wasn't impressive at all. I don't think he is any threat to Mattison being the COP and primary back up to Cook.
The Vikings traded down 3 times before settling on Mattison with pick 102. Baded on RIck Spielmans comments getting a RB was a priority for them at that stage of the draft so they took the best RB left available.
To me that is very different than what the Rams did trading up for Henderson, and I do think Henderson is a better player than Mattison is. He wasn't an option for the Vikings though. Hard to say who they would have selected if all of the RB had been available.
I would like to hear more about what you and Matt liked about Mattison before the draft. I have done some digging on him and I haven't found much. I did come across a clip of Matt talking about one play of Mattisons that I think demonstrates he is better between the tackles than Murray is. He has better pad level the way he runs and I think he has better footwork than Murray has. He isn't nearly as fast as Murray is however.
kittenmittens
Footballguy
A few of my preferred draft analysts were onto him early so I watched some of his runs. I thought he had excellent contact balance from what I saw. He also has good receiving ability while being a good sized back with decent power. He really reminds me of Kareem Hunt if I were comparing him to another back.
He did a bit better in the 40 at his pro day, but still not breakaway speed fast. I think it was 4.59 or something after adjusting for friendly pro day timings.
He did a bit better in the 40 at his pro day, but still not breakaway speed fast. I think it was 4.59 or something after adjusting for friendly pro day timings.
Jello_Biafra
Footballguy
TripItUp
Footballguy
So you'd bet me a grand that Cook has as many carries as Zeke?
Because I'm taking action on that bet.
Jello_Biafra
Footballguy
TripItUp
Footballguy
okay, I'm taking action that Zeke plays more games than Cook.
The notion that Cook has the same injury risk as Zeke is of course ridiculous. Hence, the notion that "all players can get injured" is a lazy argument in favor of players with injury riddled histories like Dalvin "crystal" Cook.
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cloppbeast
Footballguy
So many players had the injury risk label their first couple years turned out were just unlucky. Its basing a conclusion off a small sample.
Torn ACL, unlucky. Hamstring injury possibly from returning too soon, maybe unlucky.
Jello_Biafra
Footballguy
The guy's been in the league 2 years. Not much of a history to be had. As far as these bets you're proclaiming you'll make, if you were smart, you wouldn't make. Cowboys can have a playoff spot clinched and they rest Zeke, Cook could limp his way to 16 games. I agree I have more faith in Zeke being healthy a whole year, but not just over Cook, over every other RB. I think Zeke offers the least amount of injury risk than any RB. Give Cook a couple more years before you start diving into his historical facts.
kittenmittens
Footballguy
Past injury is the most predictive indicator of future injury.
A player who has torn an ACL in the past is more likely to tear an ACL than a player who has not had that injury.
Citation needed... Can't remember where that is from but it's data based.
Jello_Biafra
Footballguy
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Yes and no...
Depending what type of graft is used (hamstring tendon doubled, hamstring tendon quadrupled, Patellar tendon) the new ACL can be up to 4 times stronger than the original. Granted, these are tendons, not liagments... big difference. Ligaments stretch, tendons do not. Over time the new acl does go through a sort of ligamentation where it changes into a ligament at the cellular level. If rehabbed properly, I wouldnt expect this ACL to tear again in some cases.
Now, if this was a non contact tear, then I would be very worried. Non contact tears are usually the result of some kind of anatomical cause. Some examples: increased angle from the hip to the center of the knee (which is why female athletes are more prone to acl tears... in fact, many of these are more common in women), smaller notch where the acl attaches to the femur (think more force per area if this area is smaller than it should be), looser ligaments, improper muscular balance, and neuromuscular control.
I dont recall if Cooks injury was non contact or not. if it was a non contact then I'd probably avoid completely for fear of the contralateral side tearing at some point.
If cooks injury was the result of contact, no I would not say that he is at an increased risk for future tears. However, I'm also not convinced he rehabbed well considering he had hamstring issues when he came back - huge red flag that hes asking his hamstrings to do more, possibly help the acl, but he didnt have the strength or flexibility to do so. So... he may be at risk for tearing it again if he did not rehab well, which is something I'm wondering myself. He had an entire offseason to get it right.
Non contact.
I'd know because I got this one dynasty team that in a 12 month period lost my top QB, TE and top two RB's to non-contact ACL's. Watson, Guice, Dalvin and Hunter Henry.
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cloppbeast
Footballguy
Non contact.
How have a lot of players had non contact knee injuries come back without any problems?
He did but then you got a guy like Frank Gore who tore both ACL's and had both shoulders operated on all just in college and he is kicking around at 36.
I read a lot of Dr. Chao's stuff and is pretty adamant that players being injury prone is not true.
TripItUp
Footballguy
Fine, Christian MccAffrey, Alvin Kamara
I'd take action on most top RBs vs. Cook in games played or total touches.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
A variety of reasons. I have my own opinion on this as well. the most likely is that the anatomical issue is corrected in surgery and the athlete rehabs properly. The contralateral side may never be an issue because it may not have the anatomical anamoly.
I'm just more worried about an athlete coming back from a noncontact than contact
Interseptopus
Footballguy
the injury prone label is thrown around too much, and is used in cases where it does not apply at all. pet peeve
kittenmittens
Footballguy
Here is something I found on it. I'm not convinced of anything, I just read about past injury being predictive several times and started believing it, and am happy to be wrong about it and defer to expertise.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4196323/
Results:
ACL injury was linked to a successive injury of the same ACL, and other injuries in the LE. HS was associated with subsequent ipsilateral HS and knee injuries. Previous achilles tendon rupture increased the risk of an analogous injury on the contralateral side. An ankle sprain was associated with a re‐injury of either the ipsilateral or the contralateral ankle. Post‐injury changes were present in strength, proprioception, and kinematics, which may have led to overall changes in motor control and function.
Conclusion:
This review provides insight into the changes occurring following common LE injuries, how these changes potentially affect risk for future injury, and address the needs of the active adult population in rehabilitation.
Clinical Relevance:
Current research on previous injury and re‐injury is of high quality, but scarce quantity. Deficits following an injury are known, but how these deficits correlate or lead to re‐injury requires further exploration.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4196323/
Results:
ACL injury was linked to a successive injury of the same ACL, and other injuries in the LE. HS was associated with subsequent ipsilateral HS and knee injuries. Previous achilles tendon rupture increased the risk of an analogous injury on the contralateral side. An ankle sprain was associated with a re‐injury of either the ipsilateral or the contralateral ankle. Post‐injury changes were present in strength, proprioception, and kinematics, which may have led to overall changes in motor control and function.
Conclusion:
This review provides insight into the changes occurring following common LE injuries, how these changes potentially affect risk for future injury, and address the needs of the active adult population in rehabilitation.
Clinical Relevance:
Current research on previous injury and re‐injury is of high quality, but scarce quantity. Deficits following an injury are known, but how these deficits correlate or lead to re‐injury requires further exploration.
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steelers1080
Footballguy
Frank Gore was injury prone, until he wasn't. It's a mix of conditioning, genes, and luck, but I think it's too early to tell if Cook and Fournette will be marred by injuries for their whole career.
Aznflyer14
Footballguy
I know this is only OTA and I need to refrain myself but it is good to see Cook showcasing his desire to prove himself this year.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
The above works out to 16 rushing attempts and 3.3 receptions per game at 4.5 ypc and 7.6 ypr which are only slightly lower than Cooks career averages thus far of 4.7 ypc and 7.7 ypr
This would be 253 points in PPR or 15.8 points per game
Question for the SP you take the over or the under on this projection?
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I'm taking the over.
I can see that as a realistic expectation for his rushing stats but I fully expect his receiving to increase.
I agree with the average but he hasn't stayed healthy yet. I am going with the under for total points by 30. When he misses 2 or 3 games again that drops him down into the RB 15 range. I just think he will go too high for what he will produce.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
That's something I wondered about with their projection, how many games?
Possible that was a projection for only 14 games I suppose which would change the per game numbers.
I appreciate everyone's responses. I'm not sure where I am at as far as over under right now.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Man i really want to draft dalvin in round2 this year.....can he deliever and stay healthy?? Mattison is a must cuff
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Mike Clay has Cook projected to play 15 games with very similar numbers to those mentioned above.
258 rushing attempts 1153 yards 6 TD 69 targets 55 receptions 428 yards 2 TD 259 points which has him as the 12th highest scoring RB from his projections.
On a per game basis this would be 17.2 rushing attempts at 4.45 ypc 4.6 targets 3.6 receptions at 7.8 ypr or 17 fantasy points
258 rushing attempts 1153 yards 6 TD 69 targets 55 receptions 428 yards 2 TD 259 points which has him as the 12th highest scoring RB from his projections.
On a per game basis this would be 17.2 rushing attempts at 4.45 ypc 4.6 targets 3.6 receptions at 7.8 ypr or 17 fantasy points
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Tanner9919
Footballguy
poster child for 'Fools Gold 2019' avoid at ANY COST. always hurt, he's a lesser Robert Smith - without the talent.at least with Smith you knew you were getting a stud athlete.
you can't trust the whacky vikings offensive play calling, or the lousy HC. they're are a black hole to me I want nothing to do with any player on that team.
I'd rather roll the dice with R. Penny in Seattle than with a bum like Cook. Had Cook since he was a rookie got burned 9 ways to sunday.
you can't trust the whacky vikings offensive play calling, or the lousy HC. they're are a black hole to me I want nothing to do with any player on that team.
I'd rather roll the dice with R. Penny in Seattle than with a bum like Cook. Had Cook since he was a rookie got burned 9 ways to sunday.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
What the crap? Please dont take this the wrong way: I really dont feel like reading this drivel at 3:30 in the morning, damnit. No offense and with all due respect.
But, I have to admit you don't bring up any good points though. I mean for real, Cook is always hurt. Always. If hes not tearing he's acl he is hurting he's hamstring. What's next, a concussion?
Even when he does play, it's not like he hasn't not done well, perhaps or maybe. Clearly not a stud. The Vikings obviously dont like him; after all, they signed Ameer Abdullah for a reason. In fact, you're better off if Cook does get hurt so you can play another running back with some actual talent.
And dont get me started on the playcalling...
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Faust
MVP
Tanner9919
Footballguy
guy's missed 16 games in 2 seasons of NFL play - thats a full season of missed games for those keeping score at home. 
just simply not worth the risk at this point.
Also, there's Mike friggin' Zimmer. dude's lost most of the time. they run how many backs in Minnesota on any given day? like they pick up the pretzel vendor guy for a cameo RB job on week, the beer vendor guy the next week. the inconsistency is the real value killer here.
and I wouldnt trust a word Zimmer says about Cook looking really really good. almost everyone looks good in june, without pads, after an off-season workout or diet. just stop.
just simply not worth the risk at this point.
Also, there's Mike friggin' Zimmer. dude's lost most of the time. they run how many backs in Minnesota on any given day? like they pick up the pretzel vendor guy for a cameo RB job on week, the beer vendor guy the next week. the inconsistency is the real value killer here.
and I wouldnt trust a word Zimmer says about Cook looking really really good. almost everyone looks good in june, without pads, after an off-season workout or diet. just stop.
