RB Ezekiel Elliott, DAL (3 Viewers)

[ChuckLiddell]

Nobody has any idea what he was offered.  Zero idea.  All this “close to Gurley’s deal” matters not one bit unless the details have been disclosed.  Gurley’s contract was $58MM with $22MM guaranteed.  So the Cowboys can offer something “close” to Gurley’s deal with $54MM, but if they’re only guaranteeing $10MM then it’s really not close at all.  

To continue on about him turning down their “very lucrative deal” with comments like “he’s acting like a petulant 2nd grader” makes you seem irrationally full of hate for  what boils down to a contract negotiation.

I hear you.  I have been pretty conscientious about using "reportedly" in every statement I have made regarding the reported contract offer.  I agree that we dont know.  However, I stand by the petulant 2nd grader comments.  That has nothing (well, not everything) to do with the contract but his overall behavior, which I believe has been and continues to be bad.  No irrational hate.  I dont hate him at all although based upon what I do know of him he does not seem like someone who would ever make my holiday card list.

ETA - I am not a Cowboys fan or a fan of an NFC East team.  I dont own Zeke or any other Dallas RB in any league.  I have no horse in this race at all.  My opinions come from my morals and values alone without being tainted in any way by fantasy football.  I dont hate anyone, although I can talk for a while about our president and it may seem to contradict that statement.  

 

[babydemon90]

Then they can go play in any other league, or literally do anything else they want.  If they want to play in the NFL for their choice of careers, it comes with some rules.

Right, and the rules allow holding out. He'll get fined, if he doesn't report by a certain point he'll lose an accrued season, etc. All of this is part of the game they play. zeke will eventually report this year. He's allowed to hold out for a few games, Cowboys are allowed to fine him for that.

 

[davearm]

Nobody has any idea what he was offered.  Zero idea.  All this “close to Gurley’s deal” matters not one bit unless the details have been disclosed.  Gurley’s contract was $58MM with $22MM guaranteed.  So the Cowboys can offer something “close” to Gurley’s deal with $54MM, but if they’re only guaranteeing $10MM then it’s really not close at all.  

To continue on about him turning down their “very lucrative deal” with comments like “he’s acting like a petulant 2nd grader” makes you seem irrationally full of hate for  what boils down to a contract negotiation.

Pretty sure Gurley got $45M guaranteed, not $22M.

 

[davearm]

I dont think anybody has really said that Zeke has to honor his contract, but had someone said that yes, it would be naive.  The issue some have is that he was offered what was reportedly a very lucrative deal and he turned it down, despite having little leverage due to the fact that he is under contract and basically under team control for the next 4 seasons.  If the Cowboys want to play hardball, they can dictate terms.  He has a lot more to lose than they do, and him acting like a petulant 2nd grader out in Cabo having his messenger boy spew vitriol about his teammate's contracts is not helping his cause.  Or at least I really hope it isnt.

What got me started was when someone else stated, "once he signed the contract he is bound to the terms of the agreement just like any other profession that has contracts."

That take just struck me as pretty antithetical to how NFL is set up, where teams cut players and void contracts all the time, often with years remaining.

So I don't agree that Zeke is acting like a petulant 2nd grader in this instance; he's just playing the game by the rules established by the league and the NFLPA.

 

[Arodin]

What got me started was when someone else stated, "once he signed the contract he is bound to the terms of the agreement just like any other profession that has contracts."

That take just struck me as pretty antithetical to how NFL is set up, where teams cut players and void contracts all the time, often with years remaining.

So I don't agree that Zeke is acting like a petulant 2nd grader in this instance; he's just playing the game by the rules established by the league and the NFLPA.

You do realize that teams can’t just tear up contracts and refuse to pay, right?

When a player is cut and a contract is voided, this is done in accord with provisions in that contract specifying the circumstances under which this can be done, and the player’s compensation (if any) in such cases.  

None of this counts as the team not being bound by the terms of a contract.  They are.  They just negotiate a lot of them to be favorable.

 

[Football Jones]

I can see both sides of this, but the Rams are at fault for guaranteeing 45 mil to a RB. Dallas isn't going to make the same mistake.

The idea is to win the Super Bowl & the Cowboys have a lot of talented players to pay. The bottom line is the pie is only so big. If you're going to save on a contract, make it at a position where there's plenty of talent.

The reality is RBs are underpaid as a whole because of the injury potential as well as the amount of talent available.

 

[Bayhawks]

You do realize that teams can’t just tear up contracts and refuse to pay, right?

When a player is cut and a contract is voided, this is done in accord with provisions in that contract specifying the circumstances under which this can be done, and the player’s compensation (if any) in such cases.  

None of this counts as the team not being bound by the terms of a contract.  They are.  They just negotiate a lot of them to be favorable.

You do realize that hat then contracts (or the CBA under which they are signed) contain provisions with regards to a player holding out, retiring etc, right?  Zeke is making a decision that he able to make under the CBA.  The Cowboys can fine him (but they probably won’t).  He knows this, and is making his decision accordingly.  

When a player underperforms his contract, & the team decides to cut him before his contract is up, they accepts the cap hit, dead salary they owe, etc.  They know the ramifications of that decision.  Zeke is doing the same thing.  He’s outperformed his contract, and has decided to hold out, knowing the ramifications of that decision.  No difference.

 

[travdogg]

The reality is RBs are underpaid as a whole because of the injury potential as well as the amount of talent available.

I think that is the case against RB's being underpaid. The supply far outweighs the demand and the difference between top-5 and replacement level isn't very big compared to positions like QB, CB, OT.

 

[Wrigley]

drafting in 2 hours

Hope he signs right before my 10th round pick

 

[Milkman]

But they dont give back the huge amount of money that they were already paid while underperforming.  This goes to Dizzy's point.  Those players you are referencing put out a few bad years on their resume, so their future negotiation position was a position of weakness.  Had they played real well, they would have been in a position of strength and instead of being cut maybe they are extended.  Zeke has played real well and was rewarded by reportedly being offered a huge pay increase going forward.  It wasnt as pretty as Todd's contract, so he turned his nose up at it.  Thats where we are.

Nah one year and they are asked to take a pay cut. Typically days before final cuts so they have nowhere to go. It's ok for teams to do it but when the players want to do it they are selfish. 

 

[Milkman]

I can see both sides of this, but the Rams are at fault for guaranteeing 45 mil to a RB. Dallas isn't going to make the same mistake.

The idea is to win the Super Bowl & the Cowboys have a lot of talented players to pay. The bottom line is the pie is only so big. If you're going to save on a contract, make it at a position where there's plenty of talent.

The reality is RBs are underpaid as a whole because of the injury potential as well as the amount of talent available.

So Zeke should play as little as possible for Dallas so he can get to his free agency. Good luck to the Cowboys. Good luck to Zeke. 

 

[CalBear]

I love it when people try to characterize business owners as some kind of villains when they act in the interest of their business.

Paying guys millions and millions to play a game in order to profit millions or billions more - seems to be how it is supposed to work right?

How about this: We get rid of the union. We get rid of the salary cap. We get rid of the draft. Players go to the team willing to give them the most money. The free market, right? The "way it's supposed to work," right?

How much more would go to the players if that were the way it worked?

Ownership has rigged the system in its favor. And if you think that's "the way it's supposed to work," you're not a fan of free markets.

 

[rockaction]

How about this: We get rid of the union. We get rid of the salary cap. We get rid of the draft. Players go to the team willing to give them the most money. The free market, right? The "way it's supposed to work," right?

How much more would go to the players if that were the way it worked?

Ownership has rigged the system in its favor. And if you think that's "the way it's supposed to work," you're not a fan of free markets.

One can be a fan of free markets and side with the oligopolistic structure of the professional sports leagues for competitive balance and for continuity's sake. They sell a product to the fans. Part of that market restrictiveness might be baked into the cake. 

 

[Milkman]

How about this: We get rid of the union. We get rid of the salary cap. We get rid of the draft. Players go to the team willing to give them the most money. The free market, right? The "way it's supposed to work," right?

How much more would go to the players if that were the way it worked?

Ownership has rigged the system in its favor. And if you think that's "the way it's supposed to work," you're not a fan of free markets.

Exactly. The rich owners only want a free market when it benefits them. They want to artificially cap players pay because they are the ones paying it. 

 

[Milkman]

One can be a fan of free markets and side with the oligopolistic structure of the professional sports leagues for competitive balance and for continuity's sake. They sell a product to the fans. Part of that market restrictiveness might be baked into the cake. 

Nope you can't pick and choose how much capitalism or free market you want. You either want it or you don't. There can be no in between. 

 

[matuski]

How about this: We get rid of the union. We get rid of the salary cap. We get rid of the draft. Players go to the team willing to give them the most money. The free market, right? The "way it's supposed to work," right?

How much more would go to the players if that were the way it worked?

Ownership has rigged the system in its favor. And if you think that's "the way it's supposed to work," you're not a fan of free markets.

Again.

The system is rigged in favor of the owners.  They are, after all, the owners.

That is literally the point. That is how it is supposed to work.

I have no idea how you would ever be under the impression that NFL players are in a free market.. they are not. The NFL is their only real option, it is for all intents a monopoly.  They will forever be at the mercy of what they can get the owners to agree to.

eta - I guess they could go to canada or the xfl?

 

[brewer]

I believe the salary cap is tied to a percent of revenue.  I also believe that this percentage was collectively bargained.

A league with no salary cap or draft.... Hard pass.

 

[matuski]

Nope you can't pick and choose how much capitalism or free market you want. You either want it or you don't. There can be no in between. 

What.

 

[rockaction]

What.

I think he's being cheeky. I laughed, anyway. 

 

[CalBear]

Again.

The system is rigged in favor of the owners.  They are, after all, the owners.

That is literally the point. That is how it is supposed to work.

I have no idea how you would ever be under the impression that NFL players are in a free market.. they are not. The NFL is their only real option, it is for all intents a monopoly.  They will forever be at the mercy of what they can get the owners to agree to.

eta - I guess they could go to canada or the xfl?

There are 32 employers with franchises in the NFL. They have separate ownership, separate income, separate payroll. But they've colluded together to fix wages for employees. 

Elliott is saying "hey, you're underpaying me [almost certainly true] and I think the difference between what you're willing to pay me, and what I'm worth to you, is larger than amount it will cost you to have me sit out." He may or may not be right. But it's certainly a reasonable position for him to be taking.

 

[matuski]

There are 32 employers with franchises in the NFL. They have separate ownership, separate income, separate payroll. But they've colluded together to fix wages for employees. 

Elliott is saying "hey, you're underpaying me [almost certainly true] and I think the difference between what you're willing to pay me, and what I'm worth to you, is larger than amount it will cost you to have me sit out." He may or may not be right. But it's certainly a reasonable position for him to be taking.

I don't know how many times I can repeat it.

Yes - NFL owners have rigged the system to be in their favor.

If it were not in their favor, they would not want to be owners.

 

[Milkman]

Steelers missed the playoffs. Hopefully the Cowboys and Chargers will too. 

Rooting for the players on this. 

 

[brewer]

In a salary cap league, more money to Zeke means less money to another player. So to be clear, you're rooting for only some of the players. 

 

[CalBear]

I don't know how many times I can repeat it.

Yes - NFL owners have rigged the system to be in their favor.

If it were not in their favor, they would not want to be owners.

I'm pretty sure you could find at least 32 other people willing to make millions of dollars for sitting on their ### in their luxury box. Wage-fixing is not necessary for the NFL to be profitable. 

 

[Milkman]

In a salary cap league, more money to Zeke means less money to another player. So to be clear, you're rooting for only some of the players. 

Yes and No. True in this instance but I want them to get a larger percentage of the revenue so that it benefits all players. 

Are the huge TV contracts the NFL negotiates capped?

 

[brewer]

Yes and No. True in this instance but I want them to get a larger percentage of the revenue so that it benefits all players. 

Are the huge TV contracts the NFL negotiates capped?

I'll agree the players should get a bigger piece of the pie but Zeke holding out for more money does not accomplish that, it just takes from a future teammate.

 

[Milkman]

I'll agree the players should get a bigger piece of the pie but Zeke holding out for more money does not accomplish that, it just takes from a future teammate.

Collateral damage at this point. The owners have negotiated such an unfair CBO that its biting them in the ###. With many elite RB figuring out it's in their best interest to sit out games. Nobody that makes money off the NFL wants Zeke anywhere but on the field. 

 

[Ghost Rider]

Steelers missed the playoffs. Hopefully the Cowboys and Chargers will too. 

Rooting for the players on this. 

Pfft, I am generally on the side of players as well, but not when they make ridiculous demands, like the ones clearly being made by both Gordon and Zeke. 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Yes and No. True in this instance but I want them to get a larger percentage of the revenue so that it benefits all players. 

Are the huge TV contracts the NFL negotiates capped?

The TV contracts aren’t capped but the salary cap is based on percentages of all money that goes to the players so when the TV goes up that’s good for the players the next season. Now whether that percentage that goes to the players (54%?) is enough is debatable, but the new CBA is coming.

 

[Milkman]

Pfft, I am generally on the side of players as well, but not when they make ridiculous demands, like the ones clearly being made by both Gordon and Zeke. 

Some of these owners have made 300 million dollars a year when you factor in team values. 

Who's being ridiculous?

 

[Ghost Rider]

Some of these owners have made 300 million dollars a year when you factor in team values. 

Who's being ridiculous?

In this instance, Zeke and Gordon.  Neither has shown himself to be a reliable RB who is worth outrageous money, especially given how devalued the RB position has become.   This idea that Dallas will totally suck without Zeke is laughable.  They have one playoff win in three seasons with him so far, so running the offense through him to get over the hump clearly has not worked thus far.  There is a reason most of the best RB's in the last decade or so haven't sniffed the Super Bowl.  This is a passing league now and overpaying a RB is not the way to field a consistent winner. 

 

[Milkman]

The TV contracts aren’t capped but the salary cap is based on percentages of all money that goes to the players so when the TV goes up that’s good for the players the next season. Now whether that percentage that goes to the players (54%?) is enough is debatable, but the new CBA is coming.

Give them more than that. Reduce the length on these rookie contracts. Increase the practice squad sizes. Owners still print their own money. Everyone is happy. 

 

[Milkman]

In this instance, Zeke and Gordon.  Neither has shown himself to be a reliable RB who is worth outrageous money, especially given how devalued the RB position has become.   This idea that Dallas will totally suck without Zeke is laughable.  They have one playoff win in three seasons with him so far, so running the offense through him to get over the hump clearly has not worked thus far.  There is a reason most of the best RB's in the last decade or so haven't sniffed the Super Bowl.  This is a passing league now and overpaying a RB is not the way to field a consistent winner. 

Let them hit the free market then. Stop holding them hostage. 

 

[Ghost Rider]

Let them hit the free market then. Stop holding them hostage. 

I agree with that. I think it's ridiculous how long a team retains the rights to a player.  The franchise tag and all that crap is garbage.  Make it 3-4 years max and then a player is an unrestricted free agent no matter what (barring them re-signing beforehand).  But I suspect the NFLPA will have bigger fish to fry at the next CBA and not much will change in that regard.  But in the meantime, the way things are and with the current salary cap, it's just insanity to overpay a RB nowadays. 

 

[Milkman]

It takes a special type of person to earn 300 million plus a year and still want more. 

I get wanting to win the fight but when you knocked your opponent out 2 rounds ago and you're still dropping hammer fists on his face well you're an #######. 

 

[joffer]

Maybe a separate thread for actual news

 

[rockaction]

Collateral damage at this point. The owners have negotiated such an unfair CBO that its biting them in the ###. With many elite RB figuring out it's in their best interest to sit out games. Nobody that makes money off the NFL wants Zeke anywhere but on the field.

This is why I was saying that the traditional union model doesn't really apply to sports. I haven't wrapped my entire head around it, but entertainment is a different commodity than production of tangible and necessary goods. It's like intellectual property differing from real property in one key way. 

 

[Milkman]

That's above my pay grade brother. All I know is 54% of revenue isn't 54% of how much the owners are actually making off the players backs. 

 

[Cowboysfan8]

Good luck, man. That is going to be what makes or breaks your season. I personally love Zeke as a runner, I'd hate to be a fan of the team and be playing fantasy. All those moving parts.

No pressure.

I've gone down with the Josh Gordon ship three times. You're not alone if you sink. 

This league is a 1 man keeper for players drafted after the 3 rd rd

I went in planning to take Hopkins at 1.5

Zeke went at 1.4 tonight. I took Nuk

 

[rockaction]

This league is a 1 man keeper for players drafted after the 3 rd rd

I went in planning to take Hopkins at 1.5

Zeke went at 1.4 tonight. I took Nuk

No fuss, no muss, easy peasy. It's like being a Jets fan when you first saw Mayfield play in contrast to Darnold. Nothing the Jets could have done about the pick. They picked third, Browns picked first. Decision made. 

Best of luck to you and your season, BTW.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

No fuss, no muss, easy peasy. It's like being a Jets fan when you first saw Mayfield play in contrast to Darnold. Nothing the Jets could have done about the pick. They picked third, Browns picked first. Decision made. 

Best of luck to you and your season, BTW.

Thx bud

You still playing ff?

 

[rockaction]

Thx bud

You still playing ff?

Yep. Got a late start on following the transactions because I was supposed to play dynasty in a competitive league this year and take over a team from a former owner but it didn't work out, so I spit the bit a little. But I'm in my main league, FFA's Summerpalooza, and another league through this site. My first draft went terribly in Summerpalooza. Wasn't thinking straight. Oh well. Hopefully I can recover from it. 

 

[Cowboysfan8]

Yep. Got a late start on following the transactions because I was supposed to play dynasty in a competitive league this year and take over a team from a former owner but it didn't work out, so I spit the bit a little. But I'm in my main league, FFA's Summerpalooza, and another league through this site. My first draft went terribly in Summerpalooza. Wasn't thinking straight. Oh well. Hopefully I can recover from it. 

Meh, drafting is fun as hell but you have to get lucky no matter what

good luck to ya rock

 

[rockaction]

Meh, drafting is fun as hell but you have to get lucky no matter what

good luck to ya rock

Thanks, man. 

 

[babydemon90]

Nope you can't pick and choose how much capitalism or free market you want. You either want it or you don't. There can be no in between. 

what? that might be the dumbest thing I've read here. Of course you can. Literally what politics is all about.

 

[Amused to Death]

In this instance, Zeke and Gordon.  Neither has shown himself to be a reliable RB who is worth outrageous money, especially given how devalued the RB position has become.   This idea that Dallas will totally suck without Zeke is laughable.  They have one playoff win in three seasons with him so far, so running the offense through him to get over the hump clearly has not worked thus far.  There is a reason most of the best RB's in the last decade or so haven't sniffed the Super Bowl.  This is a passing league now and overpaying a RB is not the way to field a consistent winner. 

Exactly what I was saying earlier in this thread. Zeke is an elite talent, it just sucks (for him) its at a position the league doesn't value. RB is the easiest to replace.

 

[Milkman]

what? that might be the dumbest thing I've read here. Of course you can. Literally what politics is all about.

No you can't. It's not a free market if you pick and choose where to use it......it's a rigged market. Which is exactly what we have in the NFL. 

 

[matuski]

I'm pretty sure you could find at least 32 other people willing to make millions of dollars for sitting on their ### in their luxury box. Wage-fixing is not necessary for the NFL to be profitable. 

I think im being trolled at this point?

 

[modogg]

Maybe a separate thread for actual news

yeah, this thread went odd the rails pretty quick. i blame Cowboys fans

 

[BradtheAg]

Same for me this evening

It's my highest stakes league and the one I most want to win

Dont think I can do it unless I get enough alcohol in me before it starts

I went Hopkins at 1.05 and have to say I feel relieved to not be worrying about all this (more than I already am as a Cowboys fan).  Zeke went 1.08