RB Kenneth Walker III - SEA (1 Viewer)

[Hot Sauce Guy]

he’ll be my favorite value on the entire board.

I went into last season with this exact mindset and took KWIII everywhere.

It still stings.

 

[Scoresman]

I have a question that I'm not sure has an answer. It sounds like the previous coaching staff was running schemes that did not fit his play style. Could that contribute to his injury history? Does playing in a scheme better suited for you lower injury risk at all?

 

[travdogg]

I don’t doubt Walker’s running ability, he’s extremely talented. But Charbs is gonna play, probably 65/35? And when KWIii gets hurt, look out.

Yep. I suspect it’ll be more like 60-40 or 55-45. Honestly if I’m a KWIII shareholder I want a more even split, as that’s what might finally get a full season out of KWIII.

I'd be blown away if Charbonnet got close to that much work. I think Charbonnet is not all that different than guys like Tyler Allgeier or Isaac Guerendo as a high upside handcuff, but not someone I think plays much without an injury.

I'd also disagree that a Walker shareholder would want a closer split, even if it helped him stay healthy. Much rather have a workhorse who gets injured than a timeshare guy. Timeshare guys are easy to find, what makes Walker a low-end RB1 in my eyes, is his clear lead role, and there is nothing to suggest its going away.

Walker was RB12 in PPG last season, and that's with a worse OL, and worse playcaller.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

and that's with a worse OL, and worse playcaller

I didn’t see their OL improve that much.
They took a few swings at FA interior linemen & missed.

How improved do you really think it’ll be?

 

[JohnnyU]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

 

[TripItUp]

I listen to about 20 podcasts...they are almost all positive on Walker. There was an interesting injury podcast on PFF I think that did say that Walkers running style leads to more lower extremity injuries but the repeat messaging from most of them is that this new scheme and walker's ability to catch the ball make him nearly a consensus sleeper and a strong candidate to beat his ADP.

Take that to the bank bromigos.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Take that to the bank bromigos.

I took it to the bank last season.

 

[travdogg]

and that's with a worse OL, and worse playcaller

I didn’t see their OL improve that much.
They took a few swings at FA interior linemen & missed.

How improved do you really think it’ll be?

I think pretty improved. League average wouldn't blow my mind if Zabel hits the ground running. They were better down the stretch with Olu Oluwatami (Michigan) solidifying Center, and getting RT Anthony Lucas back in week 11, which was huge, as he's their 2nd best OL. RG is really the only major question in my eyes. I also think the OC swap will help the OL a lot.

ETA: There are more than a few similarities between Walker and 2020-2021 Dalvin Cook, who had career best efficiency with Kubiak (Gary and Kliff) I think that's the potential ceiling here.

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

I also have neither, though I had both in redraft last year.

 

[KellysHeroes]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

Both of them are very talented, but its KW3 show IMO while he's healthy. Im fortunate to have both in 2 leagues... it sucked having to reach for Chards the draft after KW3 but thats dyno FF for ya.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

Both of them are very talented, but its KW3 show IMO while he's healthy. Im fortunate to have both in 2 leagues... it sucked having to reach for Chards the draft after KW3 but thats dyno FF for ya.

As a KW shareholder, how important do you see having Charbs as a handcuff?
1-10 scale

 

[FreeBaGeL]

what makes Walker a low-end RB1 in my eyes, is his clear lead role, and there is nothing to suggest its going away.

What was there going into last offseason to suggest that Travis Etienne would lose significant work to Tank Bigsby?

Objectively, if you take the names out of it, it seems silly to keep playing a guy as the clear lead back when his backup has outperformed him when for 2 years. It seems silly to keep giving a guy workhorse touches when he keeps getting hurt with those touches and you have the best backup RB in the league to help take the load off. It seems silly to keep giving a guy workhorse touches because of his gamebreaking speed when those workhorse touches make him too tired and banged up to break off long runs (by the time the season starts it will have been almost 3 years since Walker's last 50+ yard run, his longest run last year was 28 yards).

The question is, how much longer will they keep banging their head on a wall and trying to make 300+ touch KW3 work when we've had two full years of reasons not to. To say his leash is probably short at this point is an understatement. It might be one bad game. Heck it might be zero, because he finished last season hurt so we don't even know if he would've gotten that roll back at that point or not.

 

[menobrown]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

Own both on the same two teams in dynasty.

Walker I valued highly when I drafted him. In both leagues someone else drafted Charbs and offered me him for cheap when they realized they spent a first round pick on a 3 year handcuff.

I've never considered Charbs to be remotely as good as Walker and feel like this is the second head coach and third OC who feel the same way as me.

 

[KellysHeroes]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

Both of them are very talented, but its KW3 show IMO while he's healthy. Im fortunate to have both in 2 leagues... it sucked having to reach for Chards the draft after KW3 but thats dyno FF for ya.

As a KW shareholder, how important do you see having Charbs as a handcuff?
1-10 scale

1.10 this yr? Thats a lot considering we haven't heard any camp injuries. Future 1st if I was a contender, 2026 is considered a weak draft compared to the last 3 yrs and Charbs; and by 2027 Sea has to resign/extend 1 of them to a big contract making the other available to the rest of the league meaning you'll have 2 FF RB1s

 

[FarFromHome]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

Both of them are very talented, but its KW3 show IMO while he's healthy. Im fortunate to have both in 2 leagues... it sucked having to reach for Chards the draft after KW3 but thats dyno FF for ya.

As a KW shareholder, how important do you see having Charbs as a handcuff?
1-10 scale

1.10 this yr? Thats a lot considering we haven't heard any camp injuries. Future 1st if I was a contender, 2026 is considered a weak draft compared to the last 3 yrs and Charbs; and by 2027 Sea has to resign/extend 1 of them to a big contract making the other available to the rest of the league meaning you'll have 2 FF RB1s

I own zero shares of Walker or Charbs. I am on Team Walker for sure. I also put a number 10 on the scale of importance of owning Charbs if I owned Walker.

 

[Payne]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

The truth is Walker is much better than Charbonnet talentwise.
If there is any bias on this page, it's the Charbonnet owners trying their best to convince others (or maybe themselves) he's as good as Walker.
He's not. Multiple coaches and staffs have proved that. This year is no different.

Now, if you want to argue drafting Charbonnet late is a good move, I 100% agree. He is maybe the best backup RB to own.
That doesn't make him a better player than Walker.

 

[JohnnyU]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

The truth is Walker is much better than Charbonnet talentwise.
If there is any bias on this page, it's the Charbonnet owners trying their best to convince others (or maybe themselves) he's as good as Walker.
He's not. Multiple coaches and staffs have proved that. This year is no different.

Now, if you want to argue drafting Charbonnet late is a good move, I 100% agree. He is maybe the best backup RB to own.
That doesn't make him a better player than Walker.

So, am I to assume his 3.7 avg. last year is to be blamed on injury or the OL? HIs longest run from scrimmage was 28 yards. If it is to be blamed on injury, hasn't that in itself been a problem? I'm not disagreeing that Walker is better than Charbonnet, which I'm not conviinced, but say he is, isn't Walker a huge risk in 2025? Is his ADP of 44 and rising too risky?

 

[Bronco Billy]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

The truth is Walker is much better than Charbonnet talentwise.
If there is any bias on this page, it's the Charbonnet owners trying their best to convince others (or maybe themselves) he's as good as Walker.
He's not. Multiple coaches and staffs have proved that. This year is no different.

Now, if you want to argue drafting Charbonnet late is a good move, I 100% agree. He is maybe the best backup RB to own.
That doesn't make him a better player than Walker.

Just because you keep adamantly repeating this relentlessly doesn’t make it true. Actual reliable production is very meaningful.

 

[Largent]

Obvs Seahawks fan, never owned KW3 or Charbs. I'm not breaking news here but KW "should" have his best season yet. Fully healthy, scheme improvement and Zabel and healthy Abe Lucas this line will be much improved. The RG spot is in a 3 way race with Bradford/Sundell early favorites and both have shown to camp in best shape of the careers gaining praise from MacDonald.
Contract year - sure....he knows it.
Charbs IMO is a must handcuff. Not the same athlete but has full confidence of the staff. Volume player that needs some rhythm - which if KW misses game(s) he's more than capable, must start guy.

 

[Gruden's Keyboard]

I like to look forward while using history + eye test and talent, bet on KW3. The new regime has mentioned KW3 being the guy numerous times compared to Charbs from all that I have read. I will post this again from Fantasy Points:

Seattle Seahawks​

Though Kamara is about to lose all of the efficiency gains associated with new Seahawks OC Klint Kubiak’s outside zone scheme, Ken Walker is about to benefit from them. Walker averages 4.54 career YPC on outside zone, reflecting a ~13% efficiency boost compared to all other carries. In contrast, Zach Charbonnet has averaged just 3.67 career YPC on outside zone, ~21% less than his average on other carries.

The boom-or-bust nature of outside zone also cleanly dovetails with Walker’s play style. As I discussed at the top of this article, outside zone possesses high stuff and explosive play rates. That’s also true of Walker, who ranks top-5 in percent of yards gained on big plays since entering the NFL while also ranking in the top half of the league in stuff rate each season.

Most importantly, Klint Kubiak and the rest of the Seahawks’ organization seem to agree with me. Get Zach Charbonnet out of your head.


I’ve already written about Walker’s many other virtues (including his potential to work in the screen game and his evolution into a three-down back) at length this offseason, so I won’t repeat myself here. I’ll just reaffirm that so long as he remains the RB20 by Underdog ADP, he’ll be my favorite value on the entire board.

Good stuff. But I'm unsure what qualifies as "outside zone" ...

Aint zone blocking schemes just right or left when it's all said and done?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

Both of them are very talented, but its KW3 show IMO while he's healthy. Im fortunate to have both in 2 leagues... it sucked having to reach for Chards the draft after KW3 but thats dyno FF for ya.

As a KW shareholder, how important do you see having Charbs as a handcuff?
1-10 scale

1.10 this yr? Thats a lot considering we haven't heard any camp injuries. Future 1st if I was a contender, 2026 is considered a weak draft compared to the last 3 yrs and Charbs; and by 2027 Sea has to resign/extend 1 of them to a big contract making the other available to the rest of the league meaning you'll have 2 FF RB1s

No, no where would you draft him.

But on a scale of 1 to 10, how important do you see having Charbonnet as a handcuff if you’re a Walker shareholder?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

The truth is Walker is much better than Charbonnet talentwise.

I’m not sure we agree on what “the truth” is here. I’ve seen a lot of both and they’re both very capable RB.

 

[Payne]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

The truth is Walker is much better than Charbonnet talentwise.
If there is any bias on this page, it's the Charbonnet owners trying their best to convince others (or maybe themselves) he's as good as Walker.
He's not. Multiple coaches and staffs have proved that. This year is no different.

Now, if you want to argue drafting Charbonnet late is a good move, I 100% agree. He is maybe the best backup RB to own.
That doesn't make him a better player than Walker.

Just because you keep adamantly repeating this relentlessly doesn’t make it true. Actual reliable production is very meaningful.

I'm not the multiple coaching staffs that ride Walker when he's healthy.
Every time Walker has missed time, he is right back to #1 as soon as he returns.

We have been through this ad nauseum.

 

[Payne]

The truth is Walker is much better than Charbonnet talentwise.

I’m not sure we agree on what “the truth” is here. I’ve seen a lot of both and they’re both very capable RB.

They both are capable. They have both proved it.

 

[Payne]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

Both of them are very talented, but its KW3 show IMO while he's healthy. Im fortunate to have both in 2 leagues... it sucked having to reach for Chards the draft after KW3 but thats dyno FF for ya.

As a KW shareholder, how important do you see having Charbs as a handcuff?
1-10 scale

1.10 this yr? Thats a lot considering we haven't heard any camp injuries. Future 1st if I was a contender, 2026 is considered a weak draft compared to the last 3 yrs and Charbs; and by 2027 Sea has to resign/extend 1 of them to a big contract making the other available to the rest of the league meaning you'll have 2 FF RB1s

No, no where would you draft him.

But on a scale of 1 to 10, how important do you see having Charbonnet as a handcuff if you’re a Walker shareholder?

A 10. I love Walker, but it was Charbonnet who helped me win a big money championship last year down the stretch.

 

[JohnnyU]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

The truth is Walker is much better than Charbonnet talentwise.
If there is any bias on this page, it's the Charbonnet owners trying their best to convince others (or maybe themselves) he's as good as Walker.
He's not. Multiple coaches and staffs have proved that. This year is no different.

Now, if you want to argue drafting Charbonnet late is a good move, I 100% agree. He is maybe the best backup RB to own.
That doesn't make him a better player than Walker.

Just because you keep adamantly repeating this relentlessly doesn’t make it true. Actual reliable production is very meaningful.

I'm not the multiple coaching staffs that ride Walker when he's healthy.
Every time Walker has missed time, he is right back to #1 as soon as he returns.

We have been through this ad nauseum.

...and we've been throught the inuries ad nauseum. The big quesiton is, what round should he be going? Is the fourth round too much risk?

 

[Lansdowne]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

So it's pretty much like every other player thread then.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Is the fourth round too much risk?

Last year I was getting Walker in the 4th left and right thinking I got the steal of the draft.

 

[Lansdowne]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

Both of them are very talented, but its KW3 show IMO while he's healthy. Im fortunate to have both in 2 leagues... it sucked having to reach for Chards the draft after KW3 but thats dyno FF for ya.

As a KW shareholder, how important do you see having Charbs as a handcuff?
1-10 scale

I'm a risk taker and don't believe in handcuffing unless I can get the guy for practically free. Getting Charbs at cost you'd need Walker to actually get hurt in order for it to pay off. That's betting against yourself at that point: either Walker is healthy and Charbs provides marginal value, or you get the full Charbs experience but it meant you lost Walker who cost you more. I like to bet on talent whenever I can and Walker is the more talented guy between the two. But again I'm a risk taker and I prefer chasing ceiling over floor.

 

[Bronco Billy]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

The truth is Walker is much better than Charbonnet talentwise.
If there is any bias on this page, it's the Charbonnet owners trying their best to convince others (or maybe themselves) he's as good as Walker.
He's not. Multiple coaches and staffs have proved that. This year is no different.

Now, if you want to argue drafting Charbonnet late is a good move, I 100% agree. He is maybe the best backup RB to own.
That doesn't make him a better player than Walker.

Just because you keep adamantly repeating this relentlessly doesn’t make it true. Actual reliable production is very meaningful.

I'm not the multiple coaching staffs that ride Walker when he's healthy.
Every time Walker has missed time, he is right back to #1 as soon as he returns.

We have been through this ad nauseum.

And coaching staffs never ever make misjudgments.

I can see why a coaching staff would fall in love with Walker. They see him everyday, and in practices against scout Ds or in passing skeletons or thud drills he will easily be able to get to the second level, cut downhill and the blaze down the sideline.

But in actual game play where it really counts, again reliable production and keeping the offense on schedule is important to both the O and also the D by giving them more time off the field and giving D coaches more time to scheme on the fly. And the past couple of seasons, the more productive and reliable RB in games has been Charbonnet.

That doesn’t mean Walker sucks. He’s a very good RB. But in a vacuum, Charbonnet ought to have earned more gameshare than he has gotten when both guys are playing. And objectively it cannot be said, as you continually pronounce, that Walker is meaningfully a better RB than Charbonnet.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I'm a risk taker and don't believe in handcuffing unless I can get the guy for practically free. Getting Charbs at cost you'd need Walker to actually get hurt in order for it to pay off. That's betting against yourself at that point: either Walker is healthy and Charbs provides marginal value, or you get the full Charbs experience but it meant you lost Walker who cost you more. I like to bet on talent whenever I can and Walker is the more talented guy between the two. But again I'm a risk taker and I prefer chasing ceiling over floor.

Charbs is definiely not free. But Walker has started 11, 15, and 11 games over his 3-year career.

At some point are you really “risk taking” by ignoring the handcuff to KWIII, or are you “ignoring his history”?

IMO anyone drafting KWIII in redraft absolutely must draft Charbs or should be looking at a different RB than KWIII.

Sure, he could have that magical season where he stays healthy - just ask Fred Taylor owners about that glorious stretch from 2002-2003 where he started 16 games per season after starting his career 12, 9, 13, 2.

It could happen.

I’m likely to avoid at ADP, but if I do draft KWIII anywhere this year I’m making Charbs a priority.

The elephant in the room here of course is that with Darnold under center, & Kupp replacing DKM, how productive will the Seattle offense really be? I’m a Darnold shareholder in 2 dynasty SF leagues and I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t nervous about that. It could well turn out that all the KWIII shareholders in here are right, he stays healthy, starts 17 games, and yet just isn’t as good as he’s been due to the team around him.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Another thing that seems important here is that Charbs value to KWIII shareholders in dynasty is extremely high right now. There’s some ambiguity about him long-term in SEA, plus the injury risk.

To the point where if you have Charbs in dynasty it might be an optimal time to cash out. Once the season starts if KWIII is dominating carries/receptions, that value’s gonna dip hard unless/until a KWIII injury.

 

[KellysHeroes]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

Both of them are very talented, but its KW3 show IMO while he's healthy. Im fortunate to have both in 2 leagues... it sucked having to reach for Chards the draft after KW3 but thats dyno FF for ya.

As a KW shareholder, how important do you see having Charbs as a handcuff?
1-10 scale

1.10 this yr? Thats a lot considering we haven't heard any camp injuries. Future 1st if I was a contender, 2026 is considered a weak draft compared to the last 3 yrs and Charbs; and by 2027 Sea has to resign/extend 1 of them to a big contract making the other available to the rest of the league meaning you'll have 2 FF RB1s

No, no where would you draft him.

But on a scale of 1 to 10, how important do you see having Charbonnet as a handcuff if you’re a Walker shareholder?

A 10. I love Walker, but it was Charbonnet who helped me win a big money championship last year down the stretch.

I would say importance at a 7 or 8 max, KW3 hasn't really suffered a bad injury and I dont feel Charbs is pushing for the starting job since they're are both roughly the same age.

 

[menobrown]

To the point where if you have Charbs in dynasty it might be an optimal time to cash out.

I see him a firm hold because there has been no indication they are going to extend Walker right now. If he has a good season then I'm sure they'd try but for now in Charbs you got arguably and IMO the best handcuff in fantasy football with a shot to finally have the job after this next season.

I don't know what he gets you in a trade but I've not really had any interest in finding out.

Now big caveat I'm a Walker owner in the leagues I have Charbs but even if I was not, and I'd been holding Charbs, I think we are to close to the possible finish line, a season, where they might finally seperate.

For what it's worth I own the combo in both leagues. In both leagues easily the top player on my entire roster I receive unsolicited trade offers for is Walker. No one has ever offered me anything for Charbs in either league. A point I would try to make is other then the Walker owner the market is not hot right now, another reason to hold. And I'd add one more thing I only got him in both of those leagues because he was offered to me in both for really dirt cheap.

 

[menobrown]

But on a scale of 1 to 10, how important do you see having Charbonnet as a handcuff if you’re a Walker shareholder?

From angle of redraft I don't want to say it's not important but I think you have to be ready to not handcuff Walker because of the price for Charbs. If you go into a draft feeling like you have to draft Charbonnet if you took Walker then based on my leagues you'd probably have to move on Charbs in the 9th round if you want to essentially guarantee it if you think it's that important or hold you breath and hope he makes it to you in the 10th.

In a local type league this may be fine but in the national type contest I mainly play you are kind of betting against yourself if you are spending a 3/4th round pick on Walker and then feeling like you must spend a 9th or 10th or Charbs and not sure that approach is the right way.

In a general sense I usually determine how much I value my hancuff by how thin or deep my RB position is looking with my desire to handcuff greatly enhanced when my RB group is thin so insure I got a viable weekly option and not sucking air at RB. But again from a redraft angle if I'm so scared of Walker that I feel like I absolutley must have Charbonnet then I'd probably conclude I'd rather draft someone else then Walker.

 

[travdogg]

Is the fourth round too much risk?

Last year I was getting Walker in the 4th left and right thinking I got the steal of the draft.

I mean, I'd argue it was a good pick. RB12 PPG in round 4 is pretty solid, and if you handcuffed Charbonnet (which wasn't difficult) you had a reasonable RB1 for a relatively small investment.

I'd be thrilled to get Walker in round 4 again this year, and its once again not difficult (though a bit higher than a year ago) to handcuff.

I like to look forward while using history + eye test and talent, bet on KW3. The new regime has mentioned KW3 being the guy numerous times compared to Charbs from all that I have read. I will post this again from Fantasy Points:

Seattle Seahawks​

Though Kamara is about to lose all of the efficiency gains associated with new Seahawks OC Klint Kubiak’s outside zone scheme, Ken Walker is about to benefit from them. Walker averages 4.54 career YPC on outside zone, reflecting a ~13% efficiency boost compared to all other carries. In contrast, Zach Charbonnet has averaged just 3.67 career YPC on outside zone, ~21% less than his average on other carries.

The boom-or-bust nature of outside zone also cleanly dovetails with Walker’s play style. As I discussed at the top of this article, outside zone possesses high stuff and explosive play rates. That’s also true of Walker, who ranks top-5 in percent of yards gained on big plays since entering the NFL while also ranking in the top half of the league in stuff rate each season.

Most importantly, Klint Kubiak and the rest of the Seahawks’ organization seem to agree with me. Get Zach Charbonnet out of your head.


I’ve already written about Walker’s many other virtues (including his potential to work in the screen game and his evolution into a three-down back) at length this offseason, so I won’t repeat myself here. I’ll just reaffirm that so long as he remains the RB20 by Underdog ADP, he’ll be my favorite value on the entire board.

Good stuff. But I'm unsure what qualifies as "outside zone" ...

Aint zone blocking schemes just right or left when it's all said and done?

So, outside zone is about attacking the defense horizontally, and tends to have more big plays in the run game. Its often based around stretch runs and built around more mobile OL (Zabel was almost certainly drafted with that in mind) its a Shanahan/Kubiak staple.

Inside zone is about attacking the defense vertically and tends to be more consistent gains. Its often based around double teaming a DT with either a C or G then trying to get to the 2nd level. This is what the Rams/Packers run. Its also what Seattle ran last year.

Gap scheme is about straight up 1-1 blocking. Its typically best to have mauling lineman types for this, and the goal is to get the RB in space where he has to make 1-2 guys miss and then be off to the races. This is what Greg Roman runs, and what Liam Coen ran in TB last year, and what Josh McDaniels has typically run.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Is the fourth round too much risk?

Last year I was getting Walker in the 4th left and right thinking I got the steal of the draft.

I mean, I'd argue it was a good pick. RB12 PPG in round 4 is pretty solid, and if you handcuffed Charbonnet (which wasn't difficult) you had a reasonable RB1 for a relatively small investment.

I'd be thrilled to get Walker in round 4 again this year, and its once again not difficult (though a bit higher than a year ago) to handcuff.

I like to look forward while using history + eye test and talent, bet on KW3. The new regime has mentioned KW3 being the guy numerous times compared to Charbs from all that I have read. I will post this again from Fantasy Points:

Seattle Seahawks​

Though Kamara is about to lose all of the efficiency gains associated with new Seahawks OC Klint Kubiak’s outside zone scheme, Ken Walker is about to benefit from them. Walker averages 4.54 career YPC on outside zone, reflecting a ~13% efficiency boost compared to all other carries. In contrast, Zach Charbonnet has averaged just 3.67 career YPC on outside zone, ~21% less than his average on other carries.

The boom-or-bust nature of outside zone also cleanly dovetails with Walker’s play style. As I discussed at the top of this article, outside zone possesses high stuff and explosive play rates. That’s also true of Walker, who ranks top-5 in percent of yards gained on big plays since entering the NFL while also ranking in the top half of the league in stuff rate each season.

Most importantly, Klint Kubiak and the rest of the Seahawks’ organization seem to agree with me. Get Zach Charbonnet out of your head.


I’ve already written about Walker’s many other virtues (including his potential to work in the screen game and his evolution into a three-down back) at length this offseason, so I won’t repeat myself here. I’ll just reaffirm that so long as he remains the RB20 by Underdog ADP, he’ll be my favorite value on the entire board.

Good stuff. But I'm unsure what qualifies as "outside zone" ...

Aint zone blocking schemes just right or left when it's all said and done?

So, outside zone is about attacking the defense horizontally, and tends to have more big plays in the run game. Its often based around stretch runs and built around more mobile OL (Zabel was almost certainly drafted with that in mind) its a Shanahan/Kubiak staple.

Inside zone is about attacking the defense vertically and tends to be more consistent gains. Its often based around double teaming a DT with either a C or G then trying to get to the 2nd level. This is what the Rams/Packers run. Its also what Seattle ran last year.

Gap scheme is about straight up 1-1 blocking. Its typically best to have mauling lineman types for this, and the goal is to get the RB in space where he has to make 1-2 guys miss and then be off to the races. This is what Greg Roman runs, and what Liam Coen ran in TB last year, and what Josh McDaniels has typically run.

Very strong response. Well done.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I'd be thrilled to get Walker in round 4 again this year, and its once again not difficult (though a bit higher than a year ago) to handcuff.

Actually Charbs went right about where he’s going this year. But that was NFFC leagues, where folks tend to reach for the next in line RBs more than my home league.

Ironically, in my home league last year KW went in the 3rd and I was the one taking Charbs in the 11th.

A redraft 4th + an 11th is somewhat costly to fill 1 roster spot.

 

[Buckna]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

Both of them are very talented, but its KW3 show IMO while he's healthy. Im fortunate to have both in 2 leagues... it sucked having to reach for Chards the draft after KW3 but thats dyno FF for ya.

As a KW shareholder, how important do you see having Charbs as a handcuff?
1-10 scale

1.10 this yr? Thats a lot considering we haven't heard any camp injuries. Future 1st if I was a contender, 2026 is considered a weak draft compared to the last 3 yrs and Charbs; and by 2027 Sea has to resign/extend 1 of them to a big contract making the other available to the rest of the league meaning you'll have 2 FF RB1s

If I was a Walker owner where I didn't already own Charbs, I "might" pay a future 1st. But I'd rather probably hold that 1st as the season starts for an in-season trade or target a different RB right now with guaranteed carries. In my leagues where these guys are split up between different owners I've approached both owners and typically they seem to think they are holding THE guy and prices are too high to acquire either IMO.

I'm not convinced they let Walker walk, but if they do they'd need to add at least a solid backup behind Charbs and there's no guarantee they wouldn't just target a new starter in the draft or a guy that could challenge Charbs (after all he will be in the last year of his deal next year too.) Even if Charbs balls out solo next year, I'd still wonder if they are not going to pay one, why shell out $ for the other a year later?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

Both of them are very talented, but its KW3 show IMO while he's healthy. Im fortunate to have both in 2 leagues... it sucked having to reach for Chards the draft after KW3 but thats dyno FF for ya.

As a KW shareholder, how important do you see having Charbs as a handcuff?
1-10 scale

1.10 this yr? Thats a lot considering we haven't heard any camp injuries. Future 1st if I was a contender, 2026 is considered a weak draft compared to the last 3 yrs and Charbs; and by 2027 Sea has to resign/extend 1 of them to a big contract making the other available to the rest of the league meaning you'll have 2 FF RB1s

If I was a Walker owner where I didn't already own Charbs, I "might" pay a future 1st. But I'd rather probably hold that 1st as the season starts for an in-season trade or target a different RB right now with guaranteed carries. In my leagues where these guys are split up between different owners I've approached both owners and typically they seem to think they are holding THE guy and prices are too high to acquire either IMO.

I'm not convinced they let Walker walk, but if they do they'd need to add at least a solid backup behind Charbs and there's no guarantee they wouldn't just target a new starter in the draft or a guy that could challenge Charbs (after all he will be in the last year of his deal next year too.) Even if Charbs balls out solo next year, I'd still wonder if they are not going to pay one, why shell out $ for the other a year later?

You’re replying to a misunderstood response.

I wasn’t asking if someone would pay 1.10 for Charbonet.

I was asking about the importance of handcuffing KWIII with Charbs *on a scale from 1-10*.

Figured best to nip this in the bud before it goes down a rabbit hole as this forum is wont to do.

 

[Payne]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

The truth is Walker is much better than Charbonnet talentwise.
If there is any bias on this page, it's the Charbonnet owners trying their best to convince others (or maybe themselves) he's as good as Walker.
He's not. Multiple coaches and staffs have proved that. This year is no different.

Now, if you want to argue drafting Charbonnet late is a good move, I 100% agree. He is maybe the best backup RB to own.
That doesn't make him a better player than Walker.

Just because you keep adamantly repeating this relentlessly doesn’t make it true. Actual reliable production is very meaningful.

I'm not the multiple coaching staffs that ride Walker when he's healthy.
Every time Walker has missed time, he is right back to #1 as soon as he returns.

We have been through this ad nauseum.

And coaching staffs never ever make misjudgments.

I can see why a coaching staff would fall in love with Walker. They see him everyday, and in practices against scout Ds or in passing skeletons or thud drills he will easily be able to get to the second level, cut downhill and the blaze down the sideline.

But in actual game play where it really counts, again reliable production and keeping the offense on schedule is important to both the O and also the D by giving them more time off the field and giving D coaches more time to scheme on the fly. And the past couple of seasons, the more productive and reliable RB in games has been Charbonnet.

That doesn’t mean Walker sucks. He’s a very good RB. But in a vacuum, Charbonnet ought to have earned more gameshare than he has gotten when both guys are playing. And objectively it cannot be said, as you continually pronounce, that Walker is meaningfully a better RB than Charbonnet.

I don't even know where to start here.

Multiple coaching staffs watched the same games we all did. And multiple coaching staffs decided, when healthy, Walker was the guy they wanted to start and feed.
I'm going to take the judgement of multiple (including a super bowl head coach) over your opinion. Sorry.

 

[Payne]

I'd be thrilled to get Walker in round 4 again this year, and its once again not difficult (though a bit higher than a year ago) to handcuff.

Actually Charbs went right about where he’s going this year. But that was NFFC leagues, where folks tend to reach for the next in line RBs more than my home league.

Ironically, in my home league last year KW went in the 3rd and I was the one taking Charbs in the 11th.

A redraft 4th + an 11th is somewhat costly to fill 1 roster spot.

But you're getting 1st round production at the cost of a 4th and 11th.
As I said earlier, I won a high dollar championship with Walker and Charbonnet last year and I think it can be done again this year.
It is the perfect handcuff tandem. When Walker is healthy, he gets the bulk. When he's not, Charbonnet an automatic RB1.

 

[Payne]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

Both of them are very talented, but its KW3 show IMO while he's healthy. Im fortunate to have both in 2 leagues... it sucked having to reach for Chards the draft after KW3 but thats dyno FF for ya.

As a KW shareholder, how important do you see having Charbs as a handcuff?
1-10 scale

1.10 this yr? Thats a lot considering we haven't heard any camp injuries. Future 1st if I was a contender, 2026 is considered a weak draft compared to the last 3 yrs and Charbs; and by 2027 Sea has to resign/extend 1 of them to a big contract making the other available to the rest of the league meaning you'll have 2 FF RB1s

No, no where would you draft him.

But on a scale of 1 to 10, how important do you see having Charbonnet as a handcuff if you’re a Walker shareholder?

A 10. I love Walker, but it was Charbonnet who helped me win a big money championship last year down the stretch.

I would say importance at a 7 or 8 max, KW3 hasn't really suffered a bad injury and I dont feel Charbs is pushing for the starting job since they're are both roughly the same age.

This is fair. Let's just say Charbonnet is the most valued handcuff in fantasy.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

But you're getting 1st round production at the cost of a 4th and 11th.

You would have last year, with Geo, DKM & an entirely different coaching staff.

No guarantee you’re getting that this year.

Also in the leagues I had KW, people “reached” for Charbs in the 9th/10th, so what I got was a 4th round bust who couldn’t stay on the field.

Tomato/tomahto I guess.

 

[menobrown]

But you're getting 1st round production at the cost of a 4th and 11th.

You would have last year, with Geo, DKM & an entirely different coaching staff.

No guarantee you’re getting that this year.

Also in the leagues I had KW, people “reached” for Charbs in the 9th/10th, so what I got was a 4th round bust who couldn’t stay on the field.

Tomato/tomahto I guess.

This is a better indicator of where he goes in my leagues and anytime I have taken Walker for me to get Charbs I'd have had to move in the 9th or early 10th and even then it's been to late. Actually my last two drafts I took Walker if I did not take Charbs in the 8th I never got a chance to take him in the 9th.

This is why I find it annoying when Walker goes down and people start spouting off about how you must have Charbs if you have Walker. It's nice sure but it's not that easy or practical for trying to build a team in high stakes type of leagues that don't allow trades and if you are that worried about Walker you got to take Charb that early to guarantee him it's not worth drafting Walker IMO.

 

[JohnnyU]

But you're getting 1st round production at the cost of a 4th and 11th.

You would have last year, with Geo, DKM & an entirely different coaching staff.

No guarantee you’re getting that this year.

Also in the leagues I had KW, people “reached” for Charbs in the 9th/10th, so what I got was a 4th round bust who couldn’t stay on the field.

Tomato/tomahto I guess.

This is a better indicator of where he goes in my leagues and anytime I have taken Walker for me to get Charbs I'd have had to move in the 9th or early 10th and even then it's been to late. Actually my last two drafts I took Walker if I did not take Charbs in the 8th I never got a chance to take him in the 9th.

This is why I find it annoying when Walker goes down and people start spouting off about how you must have Charbs if you have Walker. It's nice sure but it's not that easy or practical for trying to build a team in high stakes type of leagues that don't allow trades and if you are that worried about Walker you got to take Charb that early to guarantee him it's not worth drafting Walker IMO.

Makes sense to me.

 

[Bronco Billy]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

The truth is Walker is much better than Charbonnet talentwise.
If there is any bias on this page, it's the Charbonnet owners trying their best to convince others (or maybe themselves) he's as good as Walker.
He's not. Multiple coaches and staffs have proved that. This year is no different.

Now, if you want to argue drafting Charbonnet late is a good move, I 100% agree. He is maybe the best backup RB to own.
That doesn't make him a better player than Walker.

Just because you keep adamantly repeating this relentlessly doesn’t make it true. Actual reliable production is very meaningful.

I'm not the multiple coaching staffs that ride Walker when he's healthy.
Every time Walker has missed time, he is right back to #1 as soon as he returns.

We have been through this ad nauseum.

And coaching staffs never ever make misjudgments.

I can see why a coaching staff would fall in love with Walker. They see him everyday, and in practices against scout Ds or in passing skeletons or thud drills he will easily be able to get to the second level, cut downhill and the blaze down the sideline.

But in actual game play where it really counts, again reliable production and keeping the offense on schedule is important to both the O and also the D by giving them more time off the field and giving D coaches more time to scheme on the fly. And the past couple of seasons, the more productive and reliable RB in games has been Charbonnet.

That doesn’t mean Walker sucks. He’s a very good RB. But in a vacuum, Charbonnet ought to have earned more gameshare than he has gotten when both guys are playing. And objectively it cannot be said, as you continually pronounce, that Walker is meaningfully a better RB than Charbonnet.

I don't even know where to start here.

Multiple coaching staffs watched the same games we all did. And multiple coaching staffs decided, when healthy, Walker was the guy they wanted to start and feed.
I'm going to take the judgement of multiple (including a super bowl head coach) over your opinion. Sorry.

Let me try to help you. Walker barely earned more than 1 ypa in red zone carries last year. He averaged 0.4 (not a typo) ypa against stacked boxes.

Charbonnet was significantly more productive in those situations. Yet Walker got just as many carries in those situations as Charbonnet. Now that’s just flat out failure by a coaching staff to acknowledge a weakness in a RB to the point of failure in lieu of a RB who simply was better in those situations.

Care to defend the coaches using a guy who gains 0.4 ypa in short yardage/goal line situations as much as they worked a more productive and successful RB? I guess they know more?

 

[Jppaul]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

The truth is Walker is much better than Charbonnet talentwise.
If there is any bias on this page, it's the Charbonnet owners trying their best to convince others (or maybe themselves) he's as good as Walker.
He's not. Multiple coaches and staffs have proved that. This year is no different.

Now, if you want to argue drafting Charbonnet late is a good move, I 100% agree. He is maybe the best backup RB to own.
That doesn't make him a better player than Walker.

Just because you keep adamantly repeating this relentlessly doesn’t make it true. Actual reliable production is very meaningful.

I'm not the multiple coaching staffs that ride Walker when he's healthy.
Every time Walker has missed time, he is right back to #1 as soon as he returns.

We have been through this ad nauseum.

And coaching staffs never ever make misjudgments.

I can see why a coaching staff would fall in love with Walker. They see him everyday, and in practices against scout Ds or in passing skeletons or thud drills he will easily be able to get to the second level, cut downhill and the blaze down the sideline.

But in actual game play where it really counts, again reliable production and keeping the offense on schedule is important to both the O and also the D by giving them more time off the field and giving D coaches more time to scheme on the fly. And the past couple of seasons, the more productive and reliable RB in games has been Charbonnet.

That doesn’t mean Walker sucks. He’s a very good RB. But in a vacuum, Charbonnet ought to have earned more gameshare than he has gotten when both guys are playing. And objectively it cannot be said, as you continually pronounce, that Walker is meaningfully a better RB than Charbonnet.

I don't even know where to start here.

Multiple coaching staffs watched the same games we all did. And multiple coaching staffs decided, when healthy, Walker was the guy they wanted to start and feed.
I'm going to take the judgement of multiple (including a super bowl head coach) over your opinion. Sorry.

Let me try to help you. Walker barely earned more than 1 ypa in red zone carries last year. He averaged 0.4 (not a typo) ypa against stacked boxes.

Charbonnet was significantly more productive in those situations. Yet Walker got just as many carries in those situations as Charbonnet. Now that’s just flat out failure by a coaching staff to acknowledge a weakness in a RB to the point of failure in lieu of a RB who simply was better in those situations.

Care to defend the coaches using a guy who gains 0.4 ypa in short yardage/goal line situations as much as they worked a more productive and successful RB? I guess they know more?

you two are saying different things.

I won't speak for @Payne but... if the coaches prefer Walker, then facts and stats don't matter, what matters is what we predict the coaches will do. Payne doesn't need to defend the coaches because he's not their GM.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

It's nice sure but it's not that easy or practical for trying to build a team in high stakes type of leagues that don't allow trades and if you are that worried about Walker you got to take Charb that early to guarantee him it's not worth drafting Walker IMO

Yep - exactly my point above. KW+Charbs costs a 4th+10th. That’s a lot of draft capital to fill 1 starting roster spot.

Even in leagues with trades, Charbs is a bit prohibitively expensive to deal for.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Payne doesn't need to defend the coaches because he's not their GM.

He might be. We don’t know for sure he isn’t.

 

[Payne]

I think a lot of posts are coming from Walker and Charbonnet owners, with biases. I have neither.

The truth is Walker is much better than Charbonnet talentwise.
If there is any bias on this page, it's the Charbonnet owners trying their best to convince others (or maybe themselves) he's as good as Walker.
He's not. Multiple coaches and staffs have proved that. This year is no different.

Now, if you want to argue drafting Charbonnet late is a good move, I 100% agree. He is maybe the best backup RB to own.
That doesn't make him a better player than Walker.

Just because you keep adamantly repeating this relentlessly doesn’t make it true. Actual reliable production is very meaningful.

I'm not the multiple coaching staffs that ride Walker when he's healthy.
Every time Walker has missed time, he is right back to #1 as soon as he returns.

We have been through this ad nauseum.

And coaching staffs never ever make misjudgments.

I can see why a coaching staff would fall in love with Walker. They see him everyday, and in practices against scout Ds or in passing skeletons or thud drills he will easily be able to get to the second level, cut downhill and the blaze down the sideline.

But in actual game play where it really counts, again reliable production and keeping the offense on schedule is important to both the O and also the D by giving them more time off the field and giving D coaches more time to scheme on the fly. And the past couple of seasons, the more productive and reliable RB in games has been Charbonnet.

That doesn’t mean Walker sucks. He’s a very good RB. But in a vacuum, Charbonnet ought to have earned more gameshare than he has gotten when both guys are playing. And objectively it cannot be said, as you continually pronounce, that Walker is meaningfully a better RB than Charbonnet.

I don't even know where to start here.

Multiple coaching staffs watched the same games we all did. And multiple coaching staffs decided, when healthy, Walker was the guy they wanted to start and feed.
I'm going to take the judgement of multiple (including a super bowl head coach) over your opinion. Sorry.

Let me try to help you. Walker barely earned more than 1 ypa in red zone carries last year. He averaged 0.4 (not a typo) ypa against stacked boxes.

Charbonnet was significantly more productive in those situations. Yet Walker got just as many carries in those situations as Charbonnet. Now that’s just flat out failure by a coaching staff to acknowledge a weakness in a RB to the point of failure in lieu of a RB who simply was better in those situations.

Care to defend the coaches using a guy who gains 0.4 ypa in short yardage/goal line situations as much as they worked a more productive and successful RB? I guess they know more?

Yes, they do. And no need for the condescending "let me try to help you".