Judge Smails
Footballguy
Should just lock this thread until week 10
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RB Le'Veon Bell, FA (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Eminence
- Start date
Gandalf
Footballguy
2019. Do you really think he comes back to play again for the Steelers this year? And they can’t trade him because no team can negotiate a long term deal. This was an epically stupid decision by Bell. RB in the real NFL is irrelevant
Judge Smails
Footballguy
He’ll report. All he has to do. Up to Steelers at that point. They can decide DNP coaches decision. Great. Even fewer carries. Unrestricted FA next year. But he’ll report.
I told you to keep it 100% to football. Take a day off and do better if you come back.You are truly bad at trolling.
I mean.. wtf.
Let's assume a hypothetical situation:
On a scale of 1(worst) to 100 (best) where would you rate a healthy and motivated Le'Veon Bell as the starting RB for PIT?
On a scale of 1(worst) to 100 (best) where would you rate a healthy and motivated James Conner l as the starting RB for PIT?
Elevencents
Footballguy
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
Am I taking into consideration that Conner's salary is $750k and Bell's salary is $14m+?
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No-- the debate is who is the better running back. I have Conner in pretty much every league I play in, and I am banking on him effectively being a league winner for me. I do not intend any disrespect to the player when I say this, but Conner is not nearly the talent that Bell is and it is easily visible when you watch them. You can debate whether top talent is worth top dollar vs money spent elsewhere and there are other things you can nitpick, but you seem to be trying to argue that Conner and Bell are equivalent. You're going to struggle with that.
Gandalf
Footballguy
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Mr. Know-It-All
Footballguy
Conner I would give an 85, solid B, above average replacement but not to be confused with an elite back.
Bell I would give a 95, high A, definitely an uber-elite back; but the problem with the scenario is that I am not sure he is ever healthy or motivated let alone both.
Still if I had a choice it would be Bell.
Underachievers
Footballguy
Alot of people here who drafted Bell early. ?
Why would anyone have done that? Pick anyone else at that point and grab Connor 10 rounds later. It wasn't rocket science kids.
Why would anyone have done that? Pick anyone else at that point and grab Connor 10 rounds later. It wasn't rocket science kids.
He’s been an All-Pro twice; if that’s not motivated/unhealthy, every team would love to have him on the chance that he can be healthy/motivated.
Bell-95 (elite RB)
Conner-70 (now; I think he could be better than that, but now willing to consider him a “great” RB based on 1 great game.
Because many people here draft early (as in before/during preseason week 3), and to that point, 99% of all information suggested that 2018 would play out like 2017 did, where Bell was a top-3 RB. Top 3 RBs get drafted early.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Well he was taken before my pick but when most drafts took place the only news was that he was planning to do the same as last season. If he would have fell to 1.04 I would have taken him.
At the risk of reviving the causation sub-topic, I think you have to look at causation with regards to this point. Before Bell got there, the Steelers O-Line wasn’t great, as far as I can remember, and since they got Bell, his YPC has been higher than the team YPC, and his YPC in each year has been better than his backups (with the exception of his rookie year, I believe). So, you have to ask: has the O-Line been better, helping Bell, or has Bell been better, helping the O-Line?
I don’t know the answer, but I don’t think it’s as black & white as: “the O-line made Bell” or “Bell made the O-Line.”
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As a stash for the fantasy playoffs, when some other playoff-bound owner who got there riding Conner is suddenly without a key lineup contributor? It is not a terrible draft strategy for leagues not full of sharks where one is confident of grabbing decent starters in the mid-rounds.
Also, many here have him in dynasty.
Salary is no consideration.
Pure comparison of a healthy and motivated Bell vs a healthy and motivated Conner.
Twenty-Four Eighty-Four
Footballguy
Redraft. Guy wants to give me Bell, Conner and D. Jackson for Theilan & CMC. I think he's overvaluing his guys, especially Bell.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Oh, bud, I never would have picked him. I wanted out of that quickfast, and have been on record as saying so. The holdout was always real and if you're picking for floor in the first, you can't pick him. Take Zeke or DJ, but not a holdout threat.
rockaction
Footballguy
That's why he threw in DJax hoping to get you to buy on the short term.
Don't do that trade, IMHO.
brewer
Footballguy
I'm not sure I understand the back and forth at this point. I don't think anyone in this thread is suggesting that James Conner is better than Lev Bell. Many of us have suggested that the Steelers would have been better served to trade Bell last year, sign another RB like Carlos Hyde and use the rest of the money to help the defense. But, none of those things happened. Bell is well within his rights to hold out and not play just as the Steelers were well within their rights to use the tag on him again. By accounts from both sides, they were optimistic of a long term deal. Count me in the side that is glad it didn't happen. But, I'm fully aware that may end up being the wrong opinion.
Good luck to Bell, good luck to Conner. Let's see what happens going forward.
Good luck to Bell, good luck to Conner. Let's see what happens going forward.
rockaction
Footballguy
Sensible post. I think it's level-headed and about sums up how I feel about the situation, too.
If anyone responding is being honest with themselves, there’s really very little comparison. Now factor the salaries in and there are legitimate reasons to go with Conner. But otherwise, Bell is simply on another level from a talent and impact perspective.
rockaction
Footballguy
I think it's impossible to evaluate given the line and Bell and Conner's radically different running styles.
Bell doesn't hit holes, he tip toes effectively, which is called "patience" when it works -- Conner hits holes, but which holes is he hitting?
That's the debate. Two different styles. Can Bell do it behind a different line. Can Conner do what he does behind a different line? Football evaluation becomes the issue here; I prefer guys that hit holes. That's me. But Bell is probably the better back.
Bell doesn't hit holes, he tip toes effectively, which is called "patience" when it works -- Conner hits holes, but which holes is he hitting?
That's the debate. Two different styles. Can Bell do it behind a different line. Can Conner do what he does behind a different line? Football evaluation becomes the issue here; I prefer guys that hit holes. That's me. But Bell is probably the better back.
But it's different. You're comparing ballet to breakdance, which may be more of an apt comparison than I think right now. I think they're actually incomparable, style-wise.
Twenty-Four Eighty-Four
Footballguy
No way. I have too many other WRs and I think Bell's value is dropping each day because it's becoming closer to him not playing or being a time share.
brewer
Footballguy
With the limited sample size we have on James Conner, that is a hard question to answer. If I had to wager a completely non scientific guess at this point, I would say that the 2018 fully motivated James Conner is worth about 80% of a fully motivated 2018 Lev Bell.
Salary is not a factor at all in my question.
I'm asking it from a fantasy football perspective. We as Fantasy GMs don't care how much the real team is paying him in real dollars. This is all about performance on the field.
I think that's actually a better way to phrase it.
If Bell is 100%. What is Conner? I'll do a poll.
rockaction
Footballguy
Wait. :raises hand: Doesn't the cap and salary mean everything? That's why from a fantasy football perspective, Bell's not playing.
Here are Bell's points through three weeks:
0
0
0
He went 1.02-1,04 in most drafts. And that's all because of salary. I think you might have underestimated salary and real life concerns when it comes to Bell given this comment.
Re-read the last few pages, if you want; there have been a few posters who have implied that Conner is as good as Bell. They’ve picked stats that they believe prove their point, ignoring the fact that Bell has proven that he is elite over 5 years, while Conner has had 1 great game. They’ve gone so far as to pull up their Pop Warner football stats to prove their point (OK, that last part was a joke).
What's your answer to this poll? https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/770890-leveon-bell-compared-to-james-conner/
No. I'm saying completely take any real NFL contract situations out of the question.
It's purely a healthy and motivated Bell vs a healthy and motivated Conner.
I answered further upthread, that I’d have Bell as a 95 (elite), and Conner currently at a 70. I believe Conner could be a good to above average NFL RB, but not going to put him as elite based on 1 great game.
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brewer
Footballguy
Bayhawks, you are aware that fans of the Steelers and or those who own James Conner are hoping for that. And is it impossible? Those of us who have seen Conner at Pitt go through his cancer issues with grace and class are certainly hoping so. There was a time that not many thought Bell would be as good as he is now.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Bell's probably a better back, then. I'd say 75% better. Conner is good, and they have different styles, but that's why price ceilings are so difficult and caps are what they are. The cap is an artificial value, the CBA is artificial with respect to pure salary, and it becomes a real consideration given the three zeros he's put up for those that roster him on their fantasy team, most of which drafted him in the first round in redraft early, which I personally warned against on these boards. It just didn't look good.
But, yeah, I think Bell is the better back from having rostered him for two years. Conner doesn't look as impressive, but different lines and opponents bring differing situations.
bigupsetter
Footballguy
Bell is definitely better, I don’t think that’s debatable. I think he would have outperformed Conner last 2 weeks with the right side of o-line hurt.
That being said, I’d rather have Bell if I’m playing a daily game. If I’m playing season long I’d rather have Conner. If you look at Zeke last year or Mark Ingram this year, they both dropped. We are beyond the point that Bell was drafted way to high.
That being said, I’d rather have Bell if I’m playing a daily game. If I’m playing season long I’d rather have Conner. If you look at Zeke last year or Mark Ingram this year, they both dropped. We are beyond the point that Bell was drafted way to high.
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
How is fantasy football any different? Fantasy GMs care about draft value. Fire up a poll for Bell owners who have zero points of production from their first round pick vs. Conner owners who drafted a bellcow RB playing behind an elite OL (per your staff preseason) and on a high powered offense in a mid/late round.
Steeler
Footballguy
If the argument is “Conner has been a better FF value this season than Bell,” then that’s an obvious answer. However, that’s not what Joe is asking (as far as I can tell), nor is it what you’ve been going on about for the last few pages.
Fantasy Football is 100% different.
You draft players based on how you value them. What the team actually pays them is not relevant.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
It's nonsense for anyone to say Conner is as talented as Bell. He's not as explosive a runner, he's not as fluid catching passes, and he's not as elusive with the ball in his hands. Few are as talented as what Bell has proven himself to be when you factor in that he can line up basically as a WR and run those routes too. There are plenty of guys with as much running talent as Bell has. Few are threats in the passing game like he is though... that's what makes him special.
That said, Conner has more than enough talent to be an above average NFL starting RB. He's powerful, has good hands, and while he's not as elusive as Bell, he tends to find the right hole and can both make people miss and run through tackles. Kid is tough and always falls forward. He would've gotten a lot more hype in college if he hadn't missed time recovering from cancer, but he's showing now what he can do, and that's being an above average three down NFL RB.
For the Steelers' purposes, paying Bell that kind of money wouldn't have been possible (Ben and Brown's contracts) or worthwhile (timing of suspensions, injuries, and knucklehead behaviors). Having Conner as a fallback option made it an even easier decision. The thing that most don't seem to get is that the Steelers don't NEED Conner to be Bell for them to have an explosive offense, and while Bell was always very good, you can be 100% sure that he benefited from having a future HOF QB and arguably the best WR in the NFL out there with him. Of course, Bell made them better too.
I have no idea how to give a number grade to their talent. But if 100 is the best RB in football and 50 is an average NFL RB, I'd give Bell around a 90 to 95 if he's healthy and motivated, and maybe a 75 to 80 for Conner. There's a difference between them for sure, but not enough to have a noticeable difference on the Steelers offense.
That said, Conner has more than enough talent to be an above average NFL starting RB. He's powerful, has good hands, and while he's not as elusive as Bell, he tends to find the right hole and can both make people miss and run through tackles. Kid is tough and always falls forward. He would've gotten a lot more hype in college if he hadn't missed time recovering from cancer, but he's showing now what he can do, and that's being an above average three down NFL RB.
For the Steelers' purposes, paying Bell that kind of money wouldn't have been possible (Ben and Brown's contracts) or worthwhile (timing of suspensions, injuries, and knucklehead behaviors). Having Conner as a fallback option made it an even easier decision. The thing that most don't seem to get is that the Steelers don't NEED Conner to be Bell for them to have an explosive offense, and while Bell was always very good, you can be 100% sure that he benefited from having a future HOF QB and arguably the best WR in the NFL out there with him. Of course, Bell made them better too.
I have no idea how to give a number grade to their talent. But if 100 is the best RB in football and 50 is an average NFL RB, I'd give Bell around a 90 to 95 if he's healthy and motivated, and maybe a 75 to 80 for Conner. There's a difference between them for sure, but not enough to have a noticeable difference on the Steelers offense.
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
PIT RB ppg since Bell became a starter:
Conner - 22.73
Bell - 21.99
D Williams - 21.28 (32/33 years old)
Ridley - 14 (meaningless week 17 game)
RBs are easily replaceable in a good system.
habsfan
Footballguy
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Steelers4Life
Footballguy
In all seriousness, if you base your entire opinion of a running back's talent on fantasy points per game, you probably should watch them play more.
You're preaching to the choir if you're trying to explain to me what kind of success other running backs have had with the Steelers. I and many other Steelers fans have referenced that many times. But fantasy points don't equate to talent. I'm a Pitt alum and a Steelers fan, and I love Conner. But he's not Bell no matter how many fantasy points he scores.... but again, the Steelers don't need him to be like Bell.
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