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Reggie Bush - AFS (After Fresno State) (1 Viewer)

Bob Magaw

Footballguy
i was watching total access last night, & in the wake of bush's superhuman display sat nite, he had some interesting things to say.i spoke of his performance in terms of superlatives... but i think i qualified it & said it was probably best game i had ever seen by a USC RB (garrett & OJ before my time, but i did see guys like ricky bell, charles white & marcus allen).mayock said it was the most dominant performance he has EVER seen by a collegiate football player.there is little doubt in his mind that he will be an outstanding pro... he also said he should be the only invitee to the heisman award announcement, & anybody who doesn't vote for him should have their voting privileges revoked.in an effort to describe a comp player (similar physical traits & skill set), he used three players...brian westbrook... similar in size (westbrook listed at about 5'10 & 205-210... but he is probably actually under 5'9"... bush listed at 6'0" 200... so westbrook few inches shorter but stockier) & in their ability to be used as WR... in their ability to split out wide or used in the slot, knowledge of passing game & route running & WR-like hands, their versatility enables them to be used in a lot of ways to exploit matchup advantages... LBs & safeties can't cover them consistently.marshall faulk... who mayock said in his prime BEFORE knee injuries, was the closest he had seen to barry sanders as far as change of direction... he left unsaid that of course faulk was one of first RBs to be used like WR... but further, probably had the versatility, athleticism & all around skills that he could have been a pro bowl WR if rams had asked him to.michael vick... alike in his supreme athleticism, instant acceleration & stop-on-a-dime cutting ability... when vick is running free, everybody in the stadium holds their breath, because you know he could go all the way. mayock thinks bush has the similar natural ability & skills to have a parallel impact at the next level.

 
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Otis

Footballguy
Agree completely. You should ring in on Capella's Bush thread in the FFA -- lots of divergent opinions there. Dowling and others believe Young should and could get the Heisman over Bush. I absolutely do not see it, and I am amazed that others can. .

 

joffer

Footballguy
there is little doubt in his mind that he will be an outstanding pro... he also said he should be the only invitee to the heisman award announcement, & anybody who doesn't vote for him should have their voting privileges revoked.
that's ridiculous. i'm not a UT fan, but Vince Young deserves consideration. I would vote for Bush, but to say Young shouldn't even be invited is foolish.
 

Kleck.

Footballguy
Agree completely. You should ring in on Capella's Bush thread in the FFA -- lots of divergent opinions there. Dowling and others believe Young should and could get the Heisman over Bush. I absolutely do not see it, and I am amazed that others can.

.
COlin sure does love them long horns.
 

Colin Dowling

Footballguy
Agree completely. You should ring in on Capella's Bush thread in the FFA -- lots of divergent opinions there. Dowling and others believe Young should and could get the Heisman over Bush. I absolutely do not see it, and I am amazed that others can.

.
HE wasn't even the leading rusher on his team through the first two months of the season! I'm not saying he isn't a special player, and I certainly realize he is valuable to his team. But being a highlight reel doesn't make you the best player in the country. In his 4 games previous to Saturday, his statline is as follows:54 carries, 343 yards (or 85 pg), 2 TDs

11 receptions, 89 yards (22.25 ypg), 2 TDs

He's not in the Top-50 of Div 1 in kick or punt returns.

That is a MONTH out of his season. The notion that one game would make the difference is absurd. To paraphrase/edit a question in a CNNSI CFB Mailbag, I'm surprised he got 500+ yards with so many of you hanging from his jock.

Conversly, Vince YOung's WORST game (Rice) featured 10/17 passing and no TDs. But, hey, by the way, he had 77 yards on 8 carries. For those of you with a short memory, Young had 506 yards against Oklahoma State including 267 on the ground. As an added "better than" to Bush, he didn't get caught from behind twice inside the 10 on his big game.

The fact that some people think its an open and shut case for Bush either (a) havent been watching Texas play or (b) are enamored with highlight reels. Come to think of it, I'd be willing to wager that MANY people slobbing on Bush didn't make it through all 4 quarters of the game against Fresno but rather caught the highlights the next day. I'm not hacking on that, b/c the game was late, but come on.

Bush's best play of the year was not last Saturday, it was pushing Matt Leinart across the line against Notre Dame.

The Longhorn average margin of victory this season has been 35.4, including beating Ohio State, Oklahoma, and Texas Tech.

The Trojans average margin of victory is 27, with quality wins against Oregon, Notre Dame, and Fresno.

More: Texas averages more rushing yards a game than USC, but they don't have two 1st round RBs. Interesting.

The great part about this is we can discuss it all day long and it's unlikely anyone's opinion will change.

The worst part is you myopic Bush jock-hangers are going to have me rooting for Texas in the Rose Bowl, which will be akin to eating glass with a side of acid. :X

 

Bob Magaw

Footballguy
there is little doubt in his mind that he will be an outstanding pro... he also said he should be the only invitee to the heisman award announcement, & anybody who doesn't vote for him should have their voting privileges revoked.
that's ridiculous. i'm not a UT fan, but Vince Young deserves consideration. I would vote for Bush, but to say Young shouldn't even be invited is foolish.
i forget if they announce the percentage & distribution of votes... if so, we should soon all get to find out if mayock or you were more "right".i'm kind of in between... i probably wouldn't have (well, i already said i didn't) put it like mayock did... on the other hand, imo, the voting will not be or should not be as close as you seem to be advocating, if i am reading your stance correctly.

it is also possible that mayock is using a rhetorical fluorish... people are more often remembered for making strong statements than being wishy washy & saying he is sorta pretty decent.

i do think mayock was sincere in saying it was the most dominat performance he has seen... EVER!

but the leinert & young shouldn't even be invited part might have been thrown out because, lets face it... it does get your attention.

for the record... i think leinert & young merit invite :) ... but i do think they will be smoked in the voting & it won't even be close.

 

Colin Dowling

Footballguy
there is little doubt in his mind that he will be an outstanding pro... he also said he should be the only invitee to the heisman award announcement, & anybody who doesn't vote for him should have their voting privileges revoked.
that's ridiculous. i'm not a UT fan, but Vince Young deserves consideration. I would vote for Bush, but to say Young shouldn't even be invited is foolish.
i forget if they announce the percentage & distribution of votes... if so, we should soon all get to find out if mayock or you were more "right".i'm kind of in between... i probably wouldn't have (well, i already said i didn't) put it like mayock did... on the other hand, imo, the voting will not be or should not be as close as you seem to be advocating, if i am reading your stance correctly.

it is also possible that mayock is using a rhetorical fluorish... people are more often remembered for making strong statements than being wishy washy & saying he is sorta pretty decent.

i do think mayock was sincere in saying it was the most dominat performance he has seen... EVER!

but the leinert & young shouldn't even be invited part might have been thrown out because, lets face it... it does get your attention.

for the record... i think leinert & young merit invite :) ... but i do think they will be smoked in the voting & it won't even be close.
Well, that would certainly fit with the Heisman being awarded to the 2nd most deserving player, which seems to be the case of recent years. :excited:
 

Bloom

Moderator
I think Young will make it closer than most people think because Leinart and Bush will split some votes, and neither will be 2nd on most ballots, just 1st and 3rd. Young should have all 1st and 2nds. Chances are most people voting for a USC player will vote USC 1st, Young 2nd, USC 3rd. But Bush's performance probably put him over the top. should be interesting to see each players last effort.

 

Colin Dowling

Footballguy
I think Young will make it closer than most people think because Leinart and Bush will split some votes, and neither will be 2nd on most ballots, just 1st and 3rd. Young should have all 1st and 2nds. Chances are most people voting for a USC player will vote USC 1st, Young 2nd, USC 3rd. But Bush's performance probably put him over the top. should be interesting to see each players last effort.
IN a prefect world, Vince will "up the ante" Friday and USC's crummy defense will cave to the Bruins setting up a Texas/Penn State Rose Bowl with the BCS honks having to agonize over which two of USC, Notre Dame, and Ohio State to invite as at-large participants. (Or does USC still hold the tiebreaker in the Pac10? THat would make it even more fun, actually...)Colin

 

FreeBaGeL

Footballguy
I think Young will make it closer than most people think because Leinart and Bush will split some votes, and neither will be 2nd on most ballots, just 1st and 3rd. Young should have all 1st and 2nds. Chances are most people voting for a USC player will vote USC 1st, Young 2nd, USC 3rd. But Bush's performance probably put him over the top. should be interesting to see each players last effort.
Well we already know Carson Palmer probably won't have Young on his ballot. I'm sure he'll follow suit to what he did last year and put USC players 1, 2, and 3, which shows you how much thought goes into these awards...
 

jurb26

Footballguy
I think Young will make it closer than most people think because Leinart and Bush will split some votes, and neither will be 2nd on most ballots, just 1st and 3rd. Young should have all 1st and 2nds. Chances are most people voting for a USC player will vote USC 1st, Young 2nd, USC 3rd. But Bush's performance probably put him over the top. should be interesting to see each players last effort.
IN a prefect world, Vince will "up the ante" Friday and USC's crummy defense will cave to the Bruins setting up a Texas/Penn State Rose Bowl with the BCS honks having to agonize over which two of USC, Notre Dame, and Ohio State to invite as at-large participants. (Or does USC still hold the tiebreaker in the Pac10? THat would make it even more fun, actually...)Colin
This would be the worst possible situation for the BCS IMO. PSU would beat Texas and then all 3 (USC, PSU and Texas) along with LSU most likely would have only 1 loss. We would have to hear about how USC or LSU (not PSU) should be the "real" Nat Champ.
 

Colin Dowling

Footballguy
Will Leinart vote for himself or Reggie?
February 2005:Jim Rome: "Matt, who would you have voted for?"

Leinart: "Oh man, Reggie Bush was the best player this year. He deserved it. I'd give him my award if I could."

Rome: "I think you can, actually. You can give it to him if you want."

Leinart: :crickets:

Rome: "I'm just kidding..."

What do you think?

 

diesel7982

Footballguy
I agree with what Colin said above:If you think its Bush over Young, you havent been watching Texas play. Bush is fantastic, and exciting, but Young is the best player in the NCAA right now, despite his deficiencies as a future NFL passer.

 

diesel7982

Footballguy
I think Young will make it closer than most people think because Leinart and Bush will split some votes, and neither will be 2nd on most ballots, just 1st and 3rd. Young should have all 1st and 2nds. Chances are most people voting for a USC player will vote USC 1st, Young 2nd, USC 3rd. But Bush's performance probably put him over the top. should be interesting to see each players last effort.
Well we already know Carson Palmer probably won't have Young on his ballot. I'm sure he'll follow suit to what he did last year and put USC players 1, 2, and 3, which shows you how much thought goes into these awards...
No one has ever accused Carson Palmer of being intelligent.
 

jurb26

Footballguy
I agree with what Colin said above:

If you think its Bush over Young, you havent been watching Texas play.

Bush is fantastic, and exciting, but Young is the best player in the NCAA right now, despite his deficiencies as a future NFL passer.
No, Young really isn't. Bush has got almost as many total yds as Young does passing yds and Bush doesn't get even half the work he should. Bush has only got 46 more carries than Young, yet rushes for 624 yds more. When I watch the 2 teams play, it looks like one team is doing everything possible to let Young win the Heisman while the other is doing everthing possible to maintain some sort of balance on O. Bush has had just as many games this year with less than 10 carries as he has with 20+, 2. Bush is looking like the best player in the country in spite of this and that is really scary.

 

Colin Dowling

Footballguy
I agree with what Colin said above:

If you think its Bush over Young, you havent been watching Texas play. 

Bush is fantastic, and exciting, but Young is the best player in the NCAA right now, despite his deficiencies as a future NFL passer.
No, Young really isn't. Bush has got almost as many total yds as Young does passing yds and Bush doesn't get even half the work he should. Bush has only got 46 more carries than Young, yet rushes for 624 yds more. When I watch the 2 teams play, it looks like one team is doing everything possible to let Young win the Heisman while the other is doing everthing possible to maintain some sort of balance on O. Bush has had just as many games this year with less than 10 carries as he has with 20+, 2. Bush is looking like the best player in the country in spite of this and that is really scary.
I just spit Bud Light on my computer. You have lost your mind. To say such ridiculous things defies logic. 1. You admit that Bush is underutilized, which makes me wonder how he's the "Best player" more than just a stat machine/highlight film. 2. You obviously didn't see the uT/Kansas game where YOung was on strict orders to essentially not do ANYTHING but take the snap. 3. BUsh returns kicks. 4. You ignore the stretch of 4 games where BUsh was positively pedestrian.Colin

 

Bob Magaw

Footballguy
Agree completely.  You should ring in on Capella's Bush thread in the FFA -- lots of divergent opinions there.  Dowling and others believe Young should and could get the Heisman over Bush.  I absolutely do not see it, and I am amazed that others can. 

.
HE wasn't even the leading rusher on his team through the first two months of the season! I'm not saying he isn't a special player, and I certainly realize he is valuable to his team. But being a highlight reel doesn't make you the best player in the country. In his 4 games previous to Saturday, his statline is as follows:54 carries, 343 yards (or 85 pg), 2 TDs

11 receptions, 89 yards (22.25 ypg), 2 TDs

He's not in the Top-50 of Div 1 in kick or punt returns.

That is a MONTH out of his season. The notion that one game would make the difference is absurd. To paraphrase/edit a question in a CNNSI CFB Mailbag, I'm surprised he got 500+ yards with so many of you hanging from his jock.

Conversly, Vince YOung's WORST game (Rice) featured 10/17 passing and no TDs. But, hey, by the way, he had 77 yards on 8 carries. For those of you with a short memory, Young had 506 yards against Oklahoma State including 267 on the ground. As an added "better than" to Bush, he didn't get caught from behind twice inside the 10 on his big game.

The fact that some people think its an open and shut case for Bush either (a) havent been watching Texas play or (b) are enamored with highlight reels. Come to think of it, I'd be willing to wager that MANY people slobbing on Bush didn't make it through all 4 quarters of the game against Fresno but rather caught the highlights the next day. I'm not hacking on that, b/c the game was late, but come on.

Bush's best play of the year was not last Saturday, it was pushing Matt Leinart across the line against Notre Dame.

The Longhorn average margin of victory this season has been 35.4, including beating Ohio State, Oklahoma, and Texas Tech.

The Trojans average margin of victory is 27, with quality wins against Oregon, Notre Dame, and Fresno.

More: Texas averages more rushing yards a game than USC, but they don't have two 1st round RBs. Interesting.

The great part about this is we can discuss it all day long and it's unlikely anyone's opinion will change.

The worst part is you myopic Bush jock-hangers are going to have me rooting for Texas in the Rose Bowl, which will be akin to eating glass with a side of acid. :X
when you take a strong position on a player, i'll always give you the benefit of the doubt that you based your judgement & formed your conclusions based on something more in-depth than "watching the highlights"... for the record, i am basing my opinion on bush from having watched him for the past few seasons... probably much like you have done with young... no?not sure, but i would guess mayock based his scouting "opinion" on more than the highlights.

citing bush's less than stellar rushing stats begs the question waht he would do if he didn't have to split carries with lendale white.

to put this in terms that might be more meaningful to you... if bush were the sole stud RB for texas, are you suggesting his stats wouldn't be better than they are when they are divided?

also, there are games when USC heavily emphasizes the pass because... well, because they can. :) from a team perspective, it is great to be able to keep opposing offenses off balance & not know how they will be attacked from week to week... but if bush was undisputed feature RB for a program that emphasized run & had the horses up front to dictate the run, there seems little doubt his numbers would be bigger.

but than surely you must know this, & it slipped your mind to mention it.

though by my citing such a strong statement by mayock it may not seem so, i have a healthy respect, tolerance for, & expectation even that there can be divergent opinions when it comes to matters of scouting... it can be a difficult thing thing to project how a players skills will translate from college to pro... even the best scouts make "mistakes".

than there is the added difficulty of how different positions may be weighted differently in the NFL... i was just reading in last weeks PFW that in some scouts estimation, since a franchise QB is either (or both) more important & more difficult position to fill, that leinert could go first.

if bush is taken first (or before leinert, anyway)... it could be interpreted a few ways... teams don't think leinert is franchise caliber (there seems to be more consensus than division that his intangibles make him a special player, even without freakish measurables, ala brady & manning)... maybe team didn't have need at QB & couldn't find trade partner... or that bush is thought to be so special that he is selected even though in many cases a franchise QB is more important & harder to find.

i'm not going to pretend to be an expert on young... no doubt you have seen him more often & have more material from which to base an opinion.

i wonder if young carries more risk of being a player without a position... or at least carries that possibility, in scouts mind.

imo, there is some risk that he may not develope into a pro bowl caliber passer... though this hasn't been hindrance for vick, so far. young may be further along as a passer than vick at a comparable point in their careers. if he is a bigger, stronger vick that is just as fast & quick, than he would seem to be destined to be a superstar.

in my mind, though, there is less doubt that bush has right stuff to be phenomenal RB in pros... i am surprised that you said nothing about his pass catching talents. i'm not sure that faulk was deployed at SDSU like he was later with rams, & i didn't see westbrook at villanove (didn't really know about him until he was an eagle)... but, speaking for myself, bush has the most natural hands for a frontline RB prospect i can remember in... i won't say ever (& i'm not as old as mayock, so ever wouldn't be as meaningful), but lets restrict ourselves to last decade.

it may be there are oddball RBs that had freakish, WR-like hands... but how many potential #1 overall pick RBs had those kind of hands?

while it is open to debate how good his RB skills will translate to NFL, the fact that he has such superlative hands & may be able to be deployed by OCs in a faulk & westbrook-like role right away should only make him more valuable & dangerous.

i wouldn't really compare young's getting 500 combined passing/rushing yards with bush getting 500 combined rushing/receiving/return yards, & i don't think that is the best way to make your case for young being "better" than bush. i'm pretty sure it is not as rare... whereas bush just broke a conference record that has stood for decades... maybe young has also broken records, too... but that in no way diminishes bush's accomplishment.

for the record... i respect your opinion... but i also respect mayock's & my own. :)

& if a "scout" i respect & trust converges along pathways i was already leaning towards... who am i going to believe? :)

every time i have seen mayock, he doesn't just show highlights... he breaks down "lowlights" as well as highlights, & offers a balanced perspective that emphasizes strengths without glossing over weaknesses.

i just don't think that saying people must be basing their judgement on highlights adds anything of value to the discussion... if you restrict yourself to scouting type of analysis... & you really do have a compelling case... that should be enough to make your point.

for instance, though i know you are capable of it, you have said little about bush's strengths, & less about young's flaws, that kind of analysis would carry far more weight than saying they must have been basing opinion solely on highlights.

for record, where will bush rank among RBs in 2-3 yeras... will he have faulk or westbrook like impact?

how about young... vick-like? better?

 
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jurb26

Footballguy
I just spit Bud Light on my computer. You have lost your mind. To say such ridiculous things defies logic. 1. You admit that Bush is underutilized, which makes me wonder how he's the "Best player" more than just a stat machine/highlight film. 2. You obviously didn't see the uT/Kansas game where YOung was on strict orders to essentially not do ANYTHING but take the snap. 3. BUsh returns kicks. 4. You ignore the stretch of 4 games where BUsh was positively pedestrian.

Colin
I would argue this further, but I don't think there will ever be a point. Just pick up or log onto any National Sports source. If they don't provide you with enough reasons as to why Bush is the best player in college football then I certainly can't/don't want to waste the time to either.
 

jbz

Footballguy
I don't think the Heisman is a lock to go to Bush personally. Before the Fresno game, I would have said Young was winning as Bush went through a few games doing very little. The Fresno game could very well be the final push that gives Bush the Heisman, but I don't think it's such a slam dunk as some are saying. Young still has 2 games to put something in the minds of voters. Bush also has 1 vs a highly ranked opponent. If Bush does anything close to what he did vs Fresno against UCLA, then it's a lock IMO. But watch Young go out and be accountable for 6 TDs or something vs A&M and then 5 more vs Colorado/Iowa St. Could still be a toss up.

 

helix

Footballguy
Agree completely.  You should ring in on Capella's Bush thread in the FFA -- lots of divergent opinions there.  Dowling and others believe Young should and could get the Heisman over Bush.  I absolutely do not see it, and I am amazed that others can. 

.
HE wasn't even the leading rusher on his team through the first two months of the season! I'm not saying he isn't a special player, and I certainly realize he is valuable to his team. But being a highlight reel doesn't make you the best player in the country. In his 4 games previous to Saturday, his statline is as follows:54 carries, 343 yards (or 85 pg), 2 TDs

11 receptions, 89 yards (22.25 ypg), 2 TDs

He's not in the Top-50 of Div 1 in kick or punt returns.

That is a MONTH out of his season. The notion that one game would make the difference is absurd. To paraphrase/edit a question in a CNNSI CFB Mailbag, I'm surprised he got 500+ yards with so many of you hanging from his jock.

Conversly, Vince YOung's WORST game (Rice) featured 10/17 passing and no TDs. But, hey, by the way, he had 77 yards on 8 carries. For those of you with a short memory, Young had 506 yards against Oklahoma State including 267 on the ground. As an added "better than" to Bush, he didn't get caught from behind twice inside the 10 on his big game.

The fact that some people think its an open and shut case for Bush either (a) havent been watching Texas play or (b) are enamored with highlight reels. Come to think of it, I'd be willing to wager that MANY people slobbing on Bush didn't make it through all 4 quarters of the game against Fresno but rather caught the highlights the next day. I'm not hacking on that, b/c the game was late, but come on.

Bush's best play of the year was not last Saturday, it was pushing Matt Leinart across the line against Notre Dame.

The Longhorn average margin of victory this season has been 35.4, including beating Ohio State, Oklahoma, and Texas Tech.

The Trojans average margin of victory is 27, with quality wins against Oregon, Notre Dame, and Fresno.

More: Texas averages more rushing yards a game than USC, but they don't have two 1st round RBs. Interesting.

The great part about this is we can discuss it all day long and it's unlikely anyone's opinion will change.

The worst part is you myopic Bush jock-hangers are going to have me rooting for Texas in the Rose Bowl, which will be akin to eating glass with a side of acid. :X
OU and TT suck ###. Ain't no quality wins there. Sorry. Comparing a QB to a RB is just stupid. If you are a stat whore then Young is your guy. If you want to vote for the best college football player with sick running/catching/return skills, then Bush is your man. Each guy as a claim. We will see who wins.

 

PMENFAN

Footballguy
Colin, you cite the 4 game pedestrian stretch. And USC still won. Why? They have other weapons. He doesn't need to be great every game. The Heisman is the best player, not the best stats, but the BEST PLAYER. I don't even think Young is the best QB, that goes to Leinart. And, he's (Leinarts) not even the best player on his team. If it was an MVP award, Young would win, because Texas would not be the team they are if he weren't there. He is the Most Valuable Player to his team. But, it's not. It's the best player, and that's clearly Reggie Bush.

 
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greenroom

Footballguy
Colin, you cite the 4 game pedestrian stretch. And USC still won. Why? They have other weapons. He doesn't need to be great every game.

The Heisman is the best player, not the best stats, but the BEST PLAYER. I don't even think Young is the best QB, that goes to Leinart. And, he's (Leinarts) not even the best player on his team.

If it was an MVP award, Young would win, because Texas would not be the team they are if he weren't there. He is the Most Valuable Player to his team. But, it's not. It's the best player, and that's clearly Reggie Bush.
But the BEST PLAYER should be the BEST Player on his own team. And to be honest I think L White is just as good of back as Reggie Bush is. Numbers don't lie and both of them pretty much have the same numbers. If Young was doing what he was doing on USC it would not be close. And that is the bottom line.

 

Aaronur

Footballguy
If highlights made the heisman then Matt Jones should have won it because I think most of us have seen his clip on the Jags page. I think that Bush is a special player, most likely the best player, and will likely be the best pro out of any one in or rumored to be in the draft. With that said Vince Young should win the Heisman, he plays every offencive play and is their offence.Colin Quote : The Longhorn average margin of victory this season has been 35.4, including beating Ohio State, Oklahoma, and Texas Tech.However I will have to argue that beating Oklahoma is not a quality win and Texas Tech maybe although they are not exactly a defencive power house trying to stop Mr. Young.

 

Irish

Footballguy
I agree with what Colin said above:

If you think its Bush over Young, you havent been watching Texas play.

Bush is fantastic, and exciting, but Young is the best player in the NCAA right now, despite his deficiencies as a future NFL passer.
No, Young really isn't. Bush has got almost as many total yds as Young does passing yds and Bush doesn't get even half the work he should. Bush has only got 46 more carries than Young, yet rushes for 624 yds more. When I watch the 2 teams play, it looks like one team is doing everything possible to let Young win the Heisman while the other is doing everthing possible to maintain some sort of balance on O. Bush has had just as many games this year with less than 10 carries as he has with 20+, 2. Bush is looking like the best player in the country in spite of this and that is really scary.
Didn't Reggie's fumble late in the Fresno St game allow Fresno St to take the lead?
 

Chaos Commish

Footballguy
I agree with what Colin said above:

If you think its Bush over Young, you havent been watching Texas play.

Bush is fantastic, and exciting, but Young is the best player in the NCAA right now, despite his deficiencies as a future NFL passer.
No, Young really isn't. Bush has got almost as many total yds as Young does passing yds and Bush doesn't get even half the work he should. Bush has only got 46 more carries than Young, yet rushes for 624 yds more. When I watch the 2 teams play, it looks like one team is doing everything possible to let Young win the Heisman while the other is doing everthing possible to maintain some sort of balance on O. Bush has had just as many games this year with less than 10 carries as he has with 20+, 2. Bush is looking like the best player in the country in spite of this and that is really scary.
Didn't Reggie's fumble late in the Fresno St game allow Fresno St to take the lead?
Young threw two interceptions and fumbled the ball away all leading to Ohio State scores. :shrug:
 

jurb26

Footballguy
I agree with what Colin said above:

If you think its Bush over Young, you havent been watching Texas play.

Bush is fantastic, and exciting, but Young is the best player in the NCAA right now, despite his deficiencies as a future NFL passer.
No, Young really isn't. Bush has got almost as many total yds as Young does passing yds and Bush doesn't get even half the work he should. Bush has only got 46 more carries than Young, yet rushes for 624 yds more. When I watch the 2 teams play, it looks like one team is doing everything possible to let Young win the Heisman while the other is doing everthing possible to maintain some sort of balance on O. Bush has had just as many games this year with less than 10 carries as he has with 20+, 2. Bush is looking like the best player in the country in spite of this and that is really scary.
Didn't Reggie's fumble late in the Fresno St game allow Fresno St to take the lead?
Young threw two interceptions and fumbled the ball away all leading to Ohio State scores. :shrug:
... and how many INTs in the 1st half of the "other" OSU game....
 

-OZ-

Footballguy
Colin, you cite the 4 game pedestrian stretch. And USC still won. Why? They have other weapons. He doesn't need to be great every game.

The Heisman is the best player, not the best stats, but the BEST PLAYER. I don't even think Young is the best QB, that goes to Leinart. And, he's (Leinarts) not even the best player on his team.

If it was an MVP award, Young would win, because Texas would not be the team they are if he weren't there. He is the Most Valuable Player to his team. But, it's not. It's the best player, and that's clearly Reggie Bush.
Obviously it isn't "clear". You may think it is, and others may agree, but it isn't "clear". Anyway, I realize the Heismann isn't supposed to be a MVP award, but many voters treat it as such. Which IMO makes perfect sense, as the BEST player should make those around him better, and do more with less surrounding talent. You really can't be sure that Reggie Bush in Texas would be nearly the same player, but we can be almost positive that Vince Young with the surround USC talent would be at least as good as he is now.

My vote would go for Vince Young. But then, I'm not a fan of Backs in RBBC being MVP or "BEST player"

 

jurb26

Footballguy
Colin, you cite the 4 game pedestrian stretch. And USC still won. Why? They have other weapons. He doesn't need to be great every game.

The Heisman is the best player, not the best stats, but the BEST PLAYER. I don't even think Young is the best QB, that goes to Leinart. And, he's (Leinarts) not even the best player on his team.

If it was an MVP award, Young would win, because Texas would not be the team they are if he weren't there. He is the Most Valuable Player to his team. But, it's not. It's the best player, and that's clearly Reggie Bush.
Obviously it isn't "clear". You may think it is, and others may agree, but it isn't "clear". Anyway, I realize the Heismann isn't supposed to be a MVP award, but many voters treat it as such. Which IMO makes perfect sense, as the BEST player should make those around him better, and do more with less surrounding talent. You really can't be sure that Reggie Bush in Texas would be nearly the same player, but we can be almost positive that Vince Young with the surround USC talent would be at least as good as he is now.

My vote would go for Vince Young. But then, I'm not a fan of Backs in RBBC being MVP or "BEST player"
Well, if it isn't clear to you, look at Foxsports.com or ESPN.com or Yahoo.com or USAToday or MSNBC
 

Irish

Footballguy
I agree with what Colin said above:

If you think its Bush over Young, you havent been watching Texas play.

Bush is fantastic, and exciting, but Young is the best player in the NCAA right now, despite his deficiencies as a future NFL passer.
No, Young really isn't. Bush has got almost as many total yds as Young does passing yds and Bush doesn't get even half the work he should. Bush has only got 46 more carries than Young, yet rushes for 624 yds more. When I watch the 2 teams play, it looks like one team is doing everything possible to let Young win the Heisman while the other is doing everthing possible to maintain some sort of balance on O. Bush has had just as many games this year with less than 10 carries as he has with 20+, 2. Bush is looking like the best player in the country in spite of this and that is really scary.
Didn't Reggie's fumble late in the Fresno St game allow Fresno St to take the lead?
Young threw two interceptions and fumbled the ball away all leading to Ohio State scores. :shrug:
... and how many INTs in the 1st half of the "other" OSU game....
1 int in the entire game. Also Vince Young did not fumble against Ohio St, that was Selvin Young. All this talk how Bush is a lock for the Heisman after this 1 spectacular game and yet nobody mentioned that he almost lost the game for his team. Bush is good, but IMO is not the best rb on his own team and he isn't the best all purpose back in his own conference.
 

Bob Magaw

Footballguy
I agree with what Colin said above:

If you think its Bush over Young, you havent been watching Texas play. 

Bush is fantastic, and exciting, but Young is the best player in the NCAA right now, despite his deficiencies as a future NFL passer.
No, Young really isn't. Bush has got almost as many total yds as Young does passing yds and Bush doesn't get even half the work he should. Bush has only got 46 more carries than Young, yet rushes for 624 yds more. When I watch the 2 teams play, it looks like one team is doing everything possible to let Young win the Heisman while the other is doing everthing possible to maintain some sort of balance on O. Bush has had just as many games this year with less than 10 carries as he has with 20+, 2. Bush is looking like the best player in the country in spite of this and that is really scary.
I just spit Bud Light on my computer. You have lost your mind. To say such ridiculous things defies logic. 1. You admit that Bush is underutilized, which makes me wonder how he's the "Best player" more than just a stat machine/highlight film. 2. You obviously didn't see the uT/Kansas game where YOung was on strict orders to essentially not do ANYTHING but take the snap. 3. BUsh returns kicks. 4. You ignore the stretch of 4 games where BUsh was positively pedestrian.Colin
here again, if somebody has a contrary opinion... they are ridiculous & must have "lost their mind". what could that possibly add to the discussion that wasn't already covered by the substantive part of your critique?a quick word about your first criticism, which i happen to not agree with, but will extend the courtesy of not assuming you have lost your mind.

there are a couple ways we can slice & dice the term... "better player"... whether in the context of most worthy heisman candidate... & on to other matters, which may not necessarily be linked & interrelated, but happen to be of interest to me, & i am still waiting on your opinion... ie - who will be the better pro at their respective position.

i think part of a disconnect here is that being the most productive player is not NECESSARILY synonomous & interchangeable with the BEST player... it is true that talent is often correlated with production. but they need to be treated as what they are... distinct & separate issues... this enables accounting for fact that bush is dividing his carries.

if young took half the snaps in a QB rotation, wouldn't we expect young to have his stats halved as well? if this were the case, would young than be half the player?

i think it misses the point to say that bush is just a highlight reel guy because of his reduced role... first of all, its not like bush only had one or two highlight type plays all season... he just had 4-5 in ONE GAME. as in, 4-5 plays that most mere mortals couldn't make even ONCE IN A CAREER! :)

to dismiss them as "merely" highlight plays again seems to not be sufficiently taking into account the ability it takes to makes those kinds of plays... as if they were the easiest thing in the world & everybody could make the same play given the opportunity.

which leads to a related point... sometimes, highlights are even more relevant than season long production in case like this where stats are divided, & may be misleading & not taking everything into account.

a highlight can show what a prospect is capable of at their best... especially when we are talking about someone like bush, who has had so many highlights in recent seasons that it can't possibly be chalked up to luck... if you see repeated, multiple highlights, that few players are capable of making... this seems to point to the fact that we are dealing with a special player.

it seems obvious that the scouts will be looking at his highlights as well as his body of work & stats for the season... they convey different, but nearly equally vital kinds of information.

for instance, if bush (or young, for that matter) decided to not turn pro, & had some personal matter to attend to that compelled them to miss half the season... than turned pro... would they be dissed for half production... or would scouts be able to discern who was a superior prospect by the evidence they have to work with... measurables, skill set, highlight plays?

at least as important in recognizing admittedly important stats & production... scouting involves an act of imagination... to be able to project in the future how a collegiate prospect will fare against bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic & talented competition across the board.

if production was everything, ron dayne would be a HOFer.

 
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Bob Magaw

Footballguy
BTW, isn't Bush built almost the same as Cadillac in college?
No. Not even close. Williams is 5'10-5'11 and weighs b/w 210-220.Bush is taller (6'0) and thinner (190-200).

Colin
5'11" isn't close to 6'0"? :) i'm not sure if cadillac is 220 even now (i realize you expressed it as a range)... i thought he was closer to 215, but maybe he is between 215-220... but he also put on weight before this season... this was talked about a lot in pre-season & at combine... didn't he play at auburn closer to 205, than packed on 10 pounds to impress scouts & take the pounding better? gruden talked about how he added weight without losing quickness.

bush appears to have the kind of frame where he could also add 5-10 lbs of muscle, presumably without a discernible loss of functional, PLAYING speed.

if he did play at auburn closer to 205 (i'll see if i can dig that up), than that is pretty close to 200... bush was one of the fastest (if not the fastest) sprinters in the 100 m in the state of CA as prep... not sure, but i didn't think caddy was that fast... i think of him more for his special cutting ability, elusiveness & compact power for his size to run though arm tackles... caddy also has superior instincts & vision... but so does bush.

bush may not run as big... but he may be able to run away from defenders if he is just as quick in tight quarters & faster in open field.

* edit/add -

this site listed caddy at 5'11 204... very close to 6'0" 200, indeed...

it also talks about how his small frame was a concern to some scouts...

i don't want to jump around... the thread was begun talking about heisman matters... but i also included questions about the respective prospects of bush & young in NFL... in talking about cadillac, it also opens door to talking about how RBs evolve size-wise sometimes, from college to pro.

interesting that some questions people have about whether bush is a great prospect given that he has shared load with white... were mirrored last season by fact that caddy & brown shared the load... & they were drafted #2 & #5 respectively... & they have both looked like legit talents at the next level... possibly future stars... caddy still may have lingering questions about durability until he can string together more than 3-4 healthy & productive games in a row...

though brown was questioned about this, too... he has seemed more resilient as a rookie... hard to read too much into just one season, & a partial one at that...

the short answer to above question, though... if we make apples to apples comparison... bush & caddy were not only close, but near identical... in COLLEGE. i haven't seem them with their shirt off, & everybody is proportioned differently... maybe bush is more high cut ala robert smith, & caddy has thicker lower body like alot of sucessful pro RBs... even if caddy does have thicker lower body... as was noted above, that factor could be mitigated if in fact bush has similar quickness, moves & superior speed.

since caddy packed on 10 lbs between senior season & start of rookie season in NFL... in the absence of compelling evidence to suggest otherwise... not sure why we should assume & take it as given bush couldn't do something similar.

its not like caddy has a ridicuolously yoked up lorenzo neal type build... nor does bush have a twig-like, pinkston frame in which adding muscle & weight is precluded.

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2005/prospe...c_williams.html

Cadillac Williams RB Auburn 5’11 204

By: Robert Davis

"Cadillac Williams was a prized recruit out of high school, and he has lived up to the hype during his time at Auburn. His numbers have improved every year in college, and he really broke out his junior year. His rushing totals went from 614 yards as a freshman, up to 745 yards as a sophomore. During his junior season he erupted for 1,307 yards. Through his first three seasons at Auburn, Williams rushed for 2,666 yards and 33 TD’s, with 17 of those coming during his junior campaign.

Williams does a lot of things very well. Williams has excellent acceleration to and through the hole, and has the ability to cut and make defenders miss. He runs with authority, and battles for the extra yard. He possesses great vision, and just seems to know where the hole is. He is a willing inside runner, and still has the speed to be a threat on the outside.

The biggest problem with Williams is his frame. He has a slim build, and he could really use some extra pounds. It would help him be a stronger interior runner, and help him be more of a workhorse. His numbers are very impressive, but Williams has had to share time with fellow senior Ronnie Brown, so there is the question of just how many carries Williams can take, as he did have a couple injuries during his first two seasons at Auburn. While Williams has good speed, he isn’t a true burner. Cadillac also needs to show he can catch the ball out of the backfield, as he hasn't been asked to do that a great deal until this point.

Cadillac is a very good running back prospect, and could have a very good NFL career. He reminds of Clinton Portis coming out, with people questioning his frame and long range speed. Portis has put those doubts to rest, and has become one of the best backs in the league. Williams could have a similar career. I would say Cadillac is a definite first round pick, and will be one of the first three backs selected in April."

 
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-OZ-

Footballguy
Colin, you cite the 4 game pedestrian stretch. And USC still won. Why? They have other weapons. He doesn't need to be great every game.

The Heisman is the best player, not the best stats, but the BEST PLAYER. I don't even think Young is the best QB, that goes to Leinart. And, he's (Leinarts) not even the best player on his team.

If it was an MVP award, Young would win, because Texas would not be the team they are if he weren't there. He is the Most Valuable Player to his team. But, it's not. It's the best player, and that's clearly Reggie Bush.
Obviously it isn't "clear". You may think it is, and others may agree, but it isn't "clear". Anyway, I realize the Heismann isn't supposed to be a MVP award, but many voters treat it as such. Which IMO makes perfect sense, as the BEST player should make those around him better, and do more with less surrounding talent. You really can't be sure that Reggie Bush in Texas would be nearly the same player, but we can be almost positive that Vince Young with the surround USC talent would be at least as good as he is now.

My vote would go for Vince Young. But then, I'm not a fan of Backs in RBBC being MVP or "BEST player"
Well, if it isn't clear to you, look at Foxsports.com or ESPN.com or Yahoo.com or USAToday or MSNBC
Thanks for the links. I assume you read them ;) Like on Foxsports, where they say Bush could be #1 or as low as 3, Young could be 1 or 2, Leinart could be 1-3.

ESPN is more lopsided, but still give Young 2 votes.

The vote on MSNBC is 33-28 in favor of Bush.

Is this supposed to be "CLEAR" evidence?

 

Loopdog

Footballguy
my only beef with Bush is that he does get caught from behind a decent amount of time on his long runsadd that to the fact that EVERYONE in the NFL is faster than the guys he's playing against now and you have a situation where he could dissappointi dont think he will personally, but at the same time i wouldnt be shockedLoop

 

Bri

Footballguy
marshall faulk... who mayock said in his prime BEFORE knee injuries, was the closest he had seen to barry sanders as far as change of direction... he left unsaid that of course faulk was one of first RBs to be used like WR... but further, probably had the versatility, athleticism & all around skills that he could have been a pro bowl WR if rams had asked him to.
no he wasn't, wasn't even the first Vermeil back to be used as a WR in spots
 
Personally I care very little about the Heisman. I'm a big college football fan, but the Heisman has become the most overhyped award in sports. And the voters don't seem to agree on the criteria that should be considered (and highlight reels are all many voters ever see). That being said, I do think Young is a legit and deserving candidate - and most years he might be a lock to win. But Reggie Bush is the most dynamic player to come along in college football in many years.I think the voting will be close, and Bush is at a disadvantage because Lienart will indeed split some of the West Coast voting. It's also true that USC can beat most teams with or without Reggie - they are very talented. However, Bush always steps up when the Trojans need him. USC would likely have lost 3 games this year without Bush. He will not win this award solely because of the Fresno St game - which was an incredible performance. But let's not forget what he did in tough games against Notre Dame or Arizona St.

 

shakeybarn

Footballguy
Bush is fantastic, and exciting, but Young is the best player in the NCAA right now, despite his deficiencies as a future NFL passer.
I think you are wrong on this (no offense)... I'd been touting Young as the Heisman lock, up until 2 weeks ago... but it struck me... something I alwasy included in my Vince Young lauding..."if Texas loses Young... they ARE DONE!!!!!" ...still a good team... but no way do they go undefeated (had he been out at the start of the year)

Now here's the difference...

Young is the best MVP

Bush is the best college player

Who does the Heisman go to???... the MVP or the best player (not one and the same)

 

Bob Magaw

Footballguy
marshall faulk... who mayock said in his prime BEFORE knee injuries, was the closest he had seen to barry sanders as far as change of direction... he left unsaid that of course faulk was one of first RBs to be used like WR... but further, probably had the versatility, athleticism & all around skills that he could have been a pro bowl WR if rams had asked him to.
no he wasn't, wasn't even the first Vermeil back to be used as a WR in spots
your response seemed written as if i had said faulk was the first... i said he was one of the first... if you did read it as i intended, than your point would have to be there were many RBs split out at WR a lot & used in the slot...who did you have in mind? have there really been a lot of RBs who presented a threat to defenses as all purpose weapon in passing game like faulk... not talking about RBs that catch screens out of the backfield... important but more limited.

also, have there really been that many that could arguably have been a pro bowler as WR... it is a speculative question... but i think there are some differences between, say... westbrook vs. jamal lewis, such that we could say one is better athlete, has superior hand-eye coordination, more explosive in space, etc...

eric metcalf is an interesting hybrid & gray area... a RB converted to red gun, run 'n shoot WR... but he was never a RB of caliber of faulk.

i may not have been clear about which set of players we are talking about... a third down RB might line up as WR occasionally... faulk in his prime was a frontline, feature RB... not a lot of guys like that, that were also split out wide as a WR a lot AND could have been pro bowl WRs come immediately to mind for me (RBs that run routes, snap their head around for the ball & can snare it one handed like a WR)... but you have piqued my interest in who you had in mind... marcus allen (did he line up in slot as much as faulk... i didn't think so, but not sure & genuinely curious).... many others?

* edit/add - not to split hairs or put too fine a point on things... but distinctions like this bear precisely on some of the matters we are trying to determine...

if RBs with hands like faulk & westbrook are rare... & bush has those kind of hands (i think he does... based on more than highlights :) )... than by definition... he is a rare athlete.

maybe not, though... ronnie brown has great hands, & that was just last season. but among top RBs (that went in top 10) in past decade, brown might grade high up on that list... so too with bush... maybe it suggests a trend that compared to more than a decade ago, maybe more colleges are emphasizing pass (oklahoma no longer runs wishbone, etc.), & with the opportunity & more reps, some of the top athletes are able to flash skills that were maybe there in the past latent & dormant... but untapped?

maybe not mike rozier & billy sims... but maybe more guys like them could have hypothetically developed faulk/westbrook-like hands afforded the chance to evolve in that direction.

 
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shakeybarn

Footballguy
marshall faulk... who mayock said in his prime BEFORE knee injuries, was the closest he had seen to barry sanders as far as change of direction... he left unsaid that of course faulk was one of first RBs to be used like WR... but further, probably had the versatility, athleticism & all around skills that he could have been a pro bowl WR if rams had asked him to.
no he wasn't, wasn't even the first Vermeil back to be used as a WR in spots
your response seemed written as if i had said faulk was the first... i said he was one of the first... if you did read it as i intended, than your point would have to be there were many RBs split out at WR a lot & used in the slot...who did you have in mind? have there really been a lot of RBs who presented a threat to defenses as all purpose weapon in passing game like faulk... not talking about RBs that catch screens out of the backfield... important but more limited.

also, have there really been that many that could arguably have been a pro bowler as WR... it is a speculative question... but i think there are some differences between, say... westbrook vs. jamal lewis, such that we could say one is better athlete, has superior hand-eye coordination, more explosive in space, etc...

eric metcalf is an interesting hybrid & gray area... a RB converted to red gun, run 'n shoot WR... but he was never a RB of caliber of faulk.

i may not have been clear about which set of players we are talking about... a third down RB might line up as WR occasionally... faulk in his prime was a frontline, feature RB... not a lot of guys like that, that were also split out wide as a WR a lot AND could have been pro bowl WRs come immediately to mind... but you have piqued my interest in who you had in mind... marcus allen (did he line up in slot as much as faulk... i didn't think so, but not sure & genuinely curious).... many others?
more on faulk... shame faulk wasn't used more like LT2... he was a great passing RB, a very good passing RB back, but with the Rams high octane "everyone go out" offense we didn't get to see much. faulk, despite his size, and labeling as a shifting-Sander-like back had/has a great nose for the endzone too in short yardage.AND there was the biggest travesty, well ....among many, in recent Heisman debacles... Gino Toretta getting it over Faulk. you coulda put me behind center on that Miami team, and I woulda won the shippy!!!

 

Judge Smails

Footballguy
Agree completely.  You should ring in on Capella's Bush thread in the FFA -- lots of divergent opinions there.  Dowling and others believe Young should and could get the Heisman over Bush.  I absolutely do not see it, and I am amazed that others can. 

.
HE wasn't even the leading rusher on his team through the first two months of the season! I'm not saying he isn't a special player, and I certainly realize he is valuable to his team. But being a highlight reel doesn't make you the best player in the country. In his 4 games previous to Saturday, his statline is as follows:54 carries, 343 yards (or 85 pg), 2 TDs

11 receptions, 89 yards (22.25 ypg), 2 TDs

He's not in the Top-50 of Div 1 in kick or punt returns.

That is a MONTH out of his season. The notion that one game would make the difference is absurd. To paraphrase/edit a question in a CNNSI CFB Mailbag, I'm surprised he got 500+ yards with so many of you hanging from his jock.

Conversly, Vince YOung's WORST game (Rice) featured 10/17 passing and no TDs. But, hey, by the way, he had 77 yards on 8 carries. For those of you with a short memory, Young had 506 yards against Oklahoma State including 267 on the ground. As an added "better than" to Bush, he didn't get caught from behind twice inside the 10 on his big game.

The fact that some people think its an open and shut case for Bush either (a) havent been watching Texas play or (b) are enamored with highlight reels. Come to think of it, I'd be willing to wager that MANY people slobbing on Bush didn't make it through all 4 quarters of the game against Fresno but rather caught the highlights the next day. I'm not hacking on that, b/c the game was late, but come on.

Bush's best play of the year was not last Saturday, it was pushing Matt Leinart across the line against Notre Dame.

The Longhorn average margin of victory this season has been 35.4, including beating Ohio State, Oklahoma, and Texas Tech.

The Trojans average margin of victory is 27, with quality wins against Oregon, Notre Dame, and Fresno.

More: Texas averages more rushing yards a game than USC, but they don't have two 1st round RBs. Interesting.

The great part about this is we can discuss it all day long and it's unlikely anyone's opinion will change.

The worst part is you myopic Bush jock-hangers are going to have me rooting for Texas in the Rose Bowl, which will be akin to eating glass with a side of acid. :X
Count me in as part of the myopic crew. Vince is very good, but my eyes have seen what my eyes have seen. Bush is the best player in college football, and it's not really that close.
 

Bri

Footballguy
hey Bob,

I completely missed the "one of".

You qualified your statement plenty with your comments that followed and really limitted things Hmmm...I'm quite stuck now.

Keith Byars comes to mind

edit to add I don't know anything about Lydell Mitchell but I recall his name solely because of Faulk being in Indy and breaking records, was he?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MitcLy00.htm

 
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Bob Magaw

Footballguy
thats what i figured bri...thanx for checking me... i like to expand my pool of comp players, from now & in past, so i can get a better read on incoming classes. good call on lydell mitchell... he caught the ball a lot, though i'm not sure what kind of routes he ran... since last post, roger craig came to mind... though again, not sure if he ran routes like when we think of faulk & westbrook...but he was first (& with faulk only?) member of 1,000/1,000 club... as in yards rushing & receiving.among best receiving RBs in NFL currently... short list might include aforementioned faulk & westbrook, mewelde moore (racked up monster dual threat numbers at tulane & a naturally gifted athlete that was center fielder in padres organization), tiki barber... ? i might be forgetting some...as soon as bush goes pro, imo he will immediately enter into this select company as one of top receiving backs in league... faulk & tiki are aging... westbrook is a borderline stud (especially in PPR leagues... he is around #6 in one of ours) but opinion is divided if he could actually be a 20 carry a game feature RB in scheme that emphasized run more... anyway, he doesn't have to in PHI... also, westbrook didn't really have pedigree of bush... nor did moore.if bush is as good as advertised as a RB, coupled with his highly advanced, developed & battle tested receiving skills, it could make for a devestating combination in the NFL.

 
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Aaronur

Footballguy
Bush is fantastic, and exciting, but Young is the best player in the NCAA right now, despite his deficiencies as a future NFL passer.
I think you are wrong on this (no offense)... I'd been touting Young as the Heisman lock, up until 2 weeks ago... but it struck me... something I alwasy included in my Vince Young lauding..."if Texas loses Young... they ARE DONE!!!!!" ...still a good team... but no way do they go undefeated (had he been out at the start of the year)

Now here's the difference...

Young is the best MVP

Bush is the best college player

Who does the Heisman go to???... the MVP or the best player (not one and the same)
:goodposting: I think the Award should go to the best combination of both which is Vince Young, even though I think that Bush is by far the best player and has played huge when USC needs him, Texas needs Vince all the time and he isn't so bad himself.
 

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