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Reggie Bush - AFS (After Fresno State) (3 Viewers)

my only beef with Bush is that he does get caught from behind a decent amount of time on his long runs

add that to the fact that EVERYONE in the NFL is faster than the guys he's playing against now and you have a situation where he could dissappoint

i dont think he will personally, but at the same time i wouldnt be shocked

Loop
below is link to his school profile... bush was third in the state of CA in the 100 m, & had a personal best of 10.4, which supposedly was the fastest time in the nation recorded for a senior prep football player... i haven't checked this, & wouldn't be surprised to find somebody ran a 10.3 that year (in his class, tatum bell reportedly ran a 10.2)... needless to say, he is fast. he also placed in top three of a city meet at LA in 50 m... suggesting he is quick & fast.maybe he is not as fast after bulking up from weights (doubtful steven jackson can run a 10.6 anymore)... most of the time i watch, he looks like he is clearly the fastest player on the field & is running away from defenders... i could certainly say the same of vince young.

even the best backs get caught from behind... certainly barry sanders did, & he is generally highly regarded among NFL RBs in a historical sense. conversely, michael bennett may never be caught from behind... but that is far from making his prospects brighter than that of bush going forward.

interesting to read the "testimonials" at bottom... leave yourself a few minutes... it could take a while to read them all unless you are a speed reader. :)

http://usctrojans.collegesports.com/sports...h_reggie00.html

 
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Colin, you cite the 4 game pedestrian stretch. And USC still won. Why? They have other weapons. He doesn't need to be great every game.

The Heisman is the best player, not the best stats, but the BEST PLAYER. I don't even think Young is the best QB, that goes to Leinart. And, he's (Leinarts) not even the best player on his team.

If it was an MVP award, Young would win, because Texas would not be the team they are if he weren't there. He is the Most Valuable Player to his team. But, it's not. It's the best player, and that's clearly Reggie Bush.
Obviously it isn't "clear". You may think it is, and others may agree, but it isn't "clear". Anyway, I realize the Heismann isn't supposed to be a MVP award, but many voters treat it as such. Which IMO makes perfect sense, as the BEST player should make those around him better, and do more with less surrounding talent. You really can't be sure that Reggie Bush in Texas would be nearly the same player, but we can be almost positive that Vince Young with the surround USC talent would be at least as good as he is now.

My vote would go for Vince Young. But then, I'm not a fan of Backs in RBBC being MVP or "BEST player"
Well, if it isn't clear to you, look at Foxsports.com or ESPN.com or Yahoo.com or USAToday or MSNBC
Thanks for the links. I assume you read them ;) Like on Foxsports, where they say Bush could be #1 or as low as 3, Young could be 1 or 2, Leinart could be 1-3.

ESPN is more lopsided, but still give Young 2 votes.

The vote on MSNBC is 33-28 in favor of Bush.

Is this supposed to be "CLEAR" evidence?
When all 5 of the major outlets are favoring Bush, no matter how much they favor him by. Yes, I thnk thats rather clear.
 
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in an effort to describe a comp player (similar physical traits & skill set), he used three players...

brian westbrook... similar in size (westbrook listed at about 5'10 & 205-210... but he is probably actually under 5'9"... bush listed at 6'0" 200... so westbrook few inches shorter but stockier) & in their ability to be used as WR... in their ability to split out wide or used in the slot, knowledge of passing game & route running & WR-like hands, their versatility enables them to be used in a lot of ways to exploit matchup advantages... LBs & safeties can't cover them consistently.

marshall faulk... who mayock said in his prime BEFORE knee injuries, was the closest he had seen to barry sanders as far as change of direction... he left unsaid that of course faulk was one of first RBs to be used like WR... but further, probably had the versatility, athleticism & all around skills that he could have been a pro bowl WR if rams had asked him to.

michael vick... alike in his supreme athleticism, instant acceleration & stop-on-a-dime cutting ability... when vick is running free, everybody in the stadium holds their breath, because you know he could go all the way. mayock thinks bush has the similar natural ability & skills to have a parallel impact at the next level.
How about Ricky Watters? I might be in the minority, but I still think Watters was one of the best all-around backs of his era. He doesn't seem to get much run from the media though for the numbers he amassed on three different teams. Up until the very end, he was rock solid and somehow stayed healthy and was one of the most consistently productive players for about a decade. Kind of like Curtis Martin, but with more "flair". Maybe that's why people don't have much regard for him.Bush reminds me of Watters because of his lean build, but excellent ability to stop/start, twist, contort, spin and accelerate away from defenders. Watters was an excellent receiver as well.

Interestingly enough, Watters played with Bettis at Notre Dame. Those two are similar to Bush and Lendale White, too. Except USC doesn't have Anthony Johnson and Rodney Culver and Matt Leinart is a million times better than Tony Rice was. :)

Ok, I'm dating myself now.. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

 
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Colin, you cite the 4 game pedestrian stretch.  And USC still won.  Why?  They have other weapons.  He doesn't need to be great every game.

The Heisman is the best player, not the best stats, but the BEST PLAYER.  I don't even think Young is the best QB, that goes to Leinart.  And, he's (Leinarts) not even the best player on his team. 

If it was an MVP award, Young would win, because Texas would not be the team they are if he weren't there.  He is the Most Valuable Player to his team.  But, it's not.  It's the best player, and that's clearly Reggie Bush.
Obviously it isn't "clear". You may think it is, and others may agree, but it isn't "clear". Anyway, I realize the Heismann isn't supposed to be a MVP award, but many voters treat it as such. Which IMO makes perfect sense, as the BEST player should make those around him better, and do more with less surrounding talent. You really can't be sure that Reggie Bush in Texas would be nearly the same player, but we can be almost positive that Vince Young with the surround USC talent would be at least as good as he is now.

My vote would go for Vince Young. But then, I'm not a fan of Backs in RBBC being MVP or "BEST player"
Well, if it isn't clear to you, look at Foxsports.com or ESPN.com or Yahoo.com or USAToday or MSNBC
Thanks for the links. I assume you read them ;) Like on Foxsports, where they say Bush could be #1 or as low as 3, Young could be 1 or 2, Leinart could be 1-3.

ESPN is more lopsided, but still give Young 2 votes.

The vote on MSNBC is 33-28 in favor of Bush.

Is this supposed to be "CLEAR" evidence?
When all 5 of the major outlets are favoring Bush, no matter how much they favor him by. Yes, I thnk thats rather clear.
So clear that USA today had this in your link...Bush moves to the front of the Heisman poll

Another week, another change in the USA TODAY Heisman poll.

Southern California running back Reggie Bush has regained the lead, passing teammate Matt Leinart after an amazing performance against Fresno State. The junior piled up 513 all-purpose yards, including a career-high 294 yards on the ground, as the Trojans outlasted the Bulldogs 50-42.

Bush received nine out of 10 first-place votes and totaled 48 points to take command in the poll.

Leinart, who earned the other first-place vote, fell to second with 36 points with Texas quarterback Vince Young close behind in the third at 35 points.

****So just last week...on this sites survey....Bush was not even leading....but rather Leinart was....the point is...its very close and there are 3 candidates who appear capable of winning it with a few games left....clear would be an overwhelming unanimous majority favoring one of them..and that certainly is not the case.

 
...The Longhorn average margin of victory this season has been 35.4, including beating Ohio State, Oklahoma, and Texas Tech.The Trojans average margin of victory is 27, with quality wins against Oregon, Notre Dame, and Fresno....
I thought you were making a good argument, even if it didn't completely sway me. But this is just plain out WRONG to misrepresent this is in favor of Young.Texas and USC are #1 and #2 in the nation in scoring 50.1 and 48.5 ppg respectively. In yards per game USC is #1 and Texas is #2 with 571 and 527.When their offensive production differs by only 1.6 points per game, it's dishonest to suggest Texas's offense (and thus Young) is responsible for Texas having a 35.4 to 27 edge in margin of victory, a difference of 8.4 ppg. Obviously this stat is because Texas has done better defensively. Texas has the 5th ranked defense in yards per game. USC has the 44th. While I didn't find a site with the points allowed per game, since we know points scored per game, and margin of victory, it isn't hard to calculate that USC allows 21.5 points per game and Texas allows 14.7, which accounts for the vast majority of the difference in margin of victory.
 
So clear that USA today had this in your link...

Bush moves to the front of the Heisman poll

Another week, another change in the USA TODAY Heisman poll.

Southern California running back Reggie Bush has regained the lead, passing teammate Matt Leinart after an amazing performance against Fresno State. The junior piled up 513 all-purpose yards, including a career-high 294 yards on the ground, as the Trojans outlasted the Bulldogs 50-42.

Bush received nine out of 10 first-place votes and totaled 48 points to take command in the poll.

Leinart, who earned the other first-place vote, fell to second with 36 points with Texas quarterback Vince Young close behind in the third at 35 points.

****So just last week...on this sites survey....Bush was not even leading....but rather Leinart was....the point is...its very close and there are 3 candidates who appear capable of winning it with a few games left....clear would be an overwhelming unanimous majority favoring one of them..and that certainly is not the case.
It is clear now. ;)
 
Reggie Bush's head coach thinks he's the MVP on his team... enough evidence for me. Bush is the BEST PLAYER and the MVP.P.S. Saying someone shows up on the highlight reel is not a knock against them.USC head coach Pete Carroll:"I told him, 'You're the most valuable guy on the field for what you're creating by your presence.'...The overriding element of his game is he's just got such fantastic hands. You can look at the speed and all the rest, but few guys catch the ball so well. I'm talking about anybody, not just running backs."

 
when opponents defend USC, they have to defend Leinart, Bush, White, Jarrett, etc. when you play texas, you defend Young, Young, and Young.I live in SoCal, and Bush went to high school about 20 minutes from my apartment, but Young deserves the trophy this year, IMO.

 
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some interesting points have been raised...imo, bush shouldn't be punished for playing on a team with a better supporting cast & surrounding talent at the skill positions.we should be able to isolate their respective talents measured against positional peers.if bush is faulk-like, he could be a once a decade-type athlete... ie - a potential frontline, feature RB fused with exceptional hands & return ability.maybe young is a once a decade athlete, too... but that prospect might be shrouded in a little more uncertainty.not necessarily a proxy for who is "better", but maybe we can make inferences from where they are drafted (if they turn pro)... many are predicting bush & leinert will go 1-2... i don't have as clear a sense with where young will go.though this could be for reason mentioned earlier... scouts may be wary of the possibility of a lack of a clearly defined role... is he a project QB, or will he be converted to WR?for record, i think young will be a QB at the next level... with huge upside.

 
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BTW, isn't Bush built almost the same as Cadillac in college?
No. Not even close. Williams is 5'10-5'11 and weighs b/w 210-220.Bush is taller (6'0) and thinner (190-200).

Colin
5'11" isn't close to 6'0"? :) i'm not sure if cadillac is 220 even now (i realize you expressed it as a range)... i thought he was closer to 215, but maybe he is between 215-220... but he also put on weight before this season... this was talked about a lot in pre-season & at combine... didn't he play at auburn closer to 205, than packed on 10 pounds to impress scouts & take the pounding better? gruden talked about how he added weight without losing quickness.

bush appears to have the kind of frame where he could also add 5-10 lbs of muscle, presumably without a discernible loss of functional, PLAYING speed.

if he did play at auburn closer to 205 (i'll see if i can dig that up), than that is pretty close to 200... bush was one of the fastest (if not the fastest) sprinters in the 100 m in the state of CA as prep... not sure, but i didn't think caddy was that fast... i think of him more for his special cutting ability, elusiveness & compact power for his size to run though arm tackles... caddy also has superior instincts & vision... but so does bush.

bush may not run as big... but he may be able to run away from defenders if he is just as quick in tight quarters & faster in open field.

* edit/add -

this site listed caddy at 5'11 204... very close to 6'0" 200, indeed...

it also talks about how his small frame was a concern to some scouts...

i don't want to jump around... the thread was begun talking about heisman matters... but i also included questions about the respective prospects of bush & young in NFL... in talking about cadillac, it also opens door to talking about how RBs evolve size-wise sometimes, from college to pro.

interesting that some questions people have about whether bush is a great prospect given that he has shared load with white... were mirrored last season by fact that caddy & brown shared the load... & they were drafted #2 & #5 respectively... & they have both looked like legit talents at the next level... possibly future stars... caddy still may have lingering questions about durability until he can string together more than 3-4 healthy & productive games in a row...

though brown was questioned about this, too... he has seemed more resilient as a rookie... hard to read too much into just one season, & a partial one at that...

the short answer to above question, though... if we make apples to apples comparison... bush & caddy were not only close, but near identical... in COLLEGE. i haven't seem them with their shirt off, & everybody is proportioned differently... maybe bush is more high cut ala robert smith, & caddy has thicker lower body like alot of sucessful pro RBs... even if caddy does have thicker lower body... as was noted above, that factor could be mitigated if in fact bush has similar quickness, moves & superior speed.

since caddy packed on 10 lbs between senior season & start of rookie season in NFL... in the absence of compelling evidence to suggest otherwise... not sure why we should assume & take it as given bush couldn't do something similar.

its not like caddy has a ridicuolously yoked up lorenzo neal type build... nor does bush have a twig-like, pinkston frame in which adding muscle & weight is precluded.

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2005/prospe...c_williams.html

Cadillac Williams RB Auburn 5’11 204

By: Robert Davis

"Cadillac Williams was a prized recruit out of high school, and he has lived up to the hype during his time at Auburn. His numbers have improved every year in college, and he really broke out his junior year. His rushing totals went from 614 yards as a freshman, up to 745 yards as a sophomore. During his junior season he erupted for 1,307 yards. Through his first three seasons at Auburn, Williams rushed for 2,666 yards and 33 TD’s, with 17 of those coming during his junior campaign.

Williams does a lot of things very well. Williams has excellent acceleration to and through the hole, and has the ability to cut and make defenders miss. He runs with authority, and battles for the extra yard. He possesses great vision, and just seems to know where the hole is. He is a willing inside runner, and still has the speed to be a threat on the outside.

The biggest problem with Williams is his frame. He has a slim build, and he could really use some extra pounds. It would help him be a stronger interior runner, and help him be more of a workhorse. His numbers are very impressive, but Williams has had to share time with fellow senior Ronnie Brown, so there is the question of just how many carries Williams can take, as he did have a couple injuries during his first two seasons at Auburn. While Williams has good speed, he isn’t a true burner. Cadillac also needs to show he can catch the ball out of the backfield, as he hasn't been asked to do that a great deal until this point.

Cadillac is a very good running back prospect, and could have a very good NFL career. He reminds of Clinton Portis coming out, with people questioning his frame and long range speed. Portis has put those doubts to rest, and has become one of the best backs in the league. Williams could have a similar career. I would say Cadillac is a definite first round pick, and will be one of the first three backs selected in April."
:goodposting:
 
Colin, you cite the 4 game pedestrian stretch. And USC still won. Why? They have other weapons. He doesn't need to be great every game.

The Heisman is the best player, not the best stats, but the BEST PLAYER. I don't even think Young is the best QB, that goes to Leinart. And, he's (Leinarts) not even the best player on his team.

If it was an MVP award, Young would win, because Texas would not be the team they are if he weren't there. He is the Most Valuable Player to his team. But, it's not. It's the best player, and that's clearly Reggie Bush.
The 4 teams that have beaten OU this year have a combined 4 losses. They are a good team.Tech is also a good team, losing in a slip up game to OSU and losing to Texas. A lot like Notre Dame who had a slip up to MSU and lost to USC>

Colin

 
When their offensive production differs by only 1.6 points per game, it's dishonest to suggest Texas's offense (and thus Young) is responsible for Texas having a 35.4 to 27 edge in margin of victory, a difference of 8.4 ppg.
This part stood out to me. Young, with decent players, scores 1.6 points more than USC, with a team practically full of All-Americans and future NFL players? Speaks volumes about Young IMO.

Margin of victory isn't a good argument either way.

 
Reggie Bush's head coach thinks he's the MVP on his team... enough evidence for me. Bush is the BEST PLAYER and the MVP.

P.S. Saying someone shows up on the highlight reel is not a knock against them.

USC head coach Pete Carroll:

"I told him, 'You're the most valuable guy on the field for what you're creating by your presence.'...The overriding element of his game is he's just got such fantastic hands. You can look at the speed and all the rest, but few guys catch the ball so well. I'm talking about anybody, not just running backs."
I'm sure Mack Brown thinks Vince is the MVP on his team....what does that have to do w/ anything? :confused: I was criticizing people chiming in who only see highlights, not the player.

COlin

 
When their offensive production differs by only 1.6 points per game, it's dishonest to suggest Texas's offense (and thus Young) is responsible for Texas having a 35.4 to 27 edge in margin of victory, a difference of 8.4 ppg. 
This part stood out to me. Young, with decent players, scores 1.6 points more than USC, with a team practically full of All-Americans and future NFL players? Speaks volumes about Young IMO.

Margin of victory isn't a good argument either way.
To be objective, it is only fair to say that UT sports as many pro-prospects (or more) as USC, including 3 first rounders, minimum, this year. (Wright, Scott, Huff)Colin

 
When their offensive production differs by only 1.6 points per game, it's dishonest to suggest Texas's offense (and thus Young) is responsible for Texas having a 35.4 to 27 edge in margin of victory, a difference of 8.4 ppg.
This part stood out to me. Young, with decent players, scores 1.6 points more than USC, with a team practically full of All-Americans and future NFL players? Speaks volumes about Young IMO.

Margin of victory isn't a good argument either way.
To be objective, it is only fair to say that UT sports as many pro-prospects (or more) as USC, including 3 first rounders, minimum, this year. (Wright, Scott, Huff)Colin
Offense?Total starting?

You may have a higher expectation of most of the Longhorns than I do, I see some very nice players, some role players, but nowhere near the total talent as USC.

 
When their offensive production differs by only 1.6 points per game, it's dishonest to suggest Texas's offense (and thus Young) is responsible for Texas having a 35.4 to 27 edge in margin of victory, a difference of 8.4 ppg. 
This part stood out to me. Young, with decent players, scores 1.6 points more than USC, with a team practically full of All-Americans and future NFL players? Speaks volumes about Young IMO.

Margin of victory isn't a good argument either way.
To be objective, it is only fair to say that UT sports as many pro-prospects (or more) as USC, including 3 first rounders, minimum, this year. (Wright, Scott, Huff)Colin
Offense?Total starting?

You may have a higher expectation of most of the Longhorns than I do, I see some very nice players, some role players, but nowhere near the total talent as USC.
Wright is the top DT in the draft.Jon Scott will likely be the 4th -5th OT taken (Ferguson, Winston, McNeil, Whitworth) and will go ahead of Justice.

Huff will be the first safety taken.

THe offense has great depth at RB and the Oline is very good. THe receivers and TEs aren't as good as year's past though.

COlin

 
When their offensive production differs by only 1.6 points per game, it's dishonest to suggest Texas's offense (and thus Young) is responsible for Texas having a 35.4 to 27 edge in margin of victory, a difference of 8.4 ppg.
This part stood out to me. Young, with decent players, scores 1.6 points more than USC, with a team practically full of All-Americans and future NFL players? Speaks volumes about Young IMO.

Margin of victory isn't a good argument either way.
To be objective, it is only fair to say that UT sports as many pro-prospects (or more) as USC, including 3 first rounders, minimum, this year. (Wright, Scott, Huff)Colin
HowTF is this relevent to the discussion? Wright and Huff don't help Young make plays, whereas the other 3 top 10 picks on the USC offense go a long way toward making the defense play honest.
 
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I agree with what Colin said above:

If you think its Bush over Young, you havent been watching Texas play. 

Bush is fantastic, and exciting, but Young is the best player in the NCAA right now, despite his deficiencies as a future NFL passer.
No, Young really isn't. Bush has got almost as many total yds as Young does passing yds and Bush doesn't get even half the work he should. Bush has only got 46 more carries than Young, yet rushes for 624 yds more. When I watch the 2 teams play, it looks like one team is doing everything possible to let Young win the Heisman while the other is doing everthing possible to maintain some sort of balance on O. Bush has had just as many games this year with less than 10 carries as he has with 20+, 2. Bush is looking like the best player in the country in spite of this and that is really scary.
Didn't Reggie's fumble late in the Fresno St game allow Fresno St to take the lead?
Young threw two interceptions and fumbled the ball away all leading to Ohio State scores. :shrug:
... and how many INTs in the 1st half of the "other" OSU game....
1 int in the entire game. Also Vince Young did not fumble against Ohio St, that was Selvin Young. All this talk how Bush is a lock for the Heisman after this 1 spectacular game and yet nobody mentioned that he almost lost the game for his team. Bush is good, but IMO is not the best rb on his own team and he isn't the best all purpose back in his own conference.
Wow, you don't honestly believe any of that drivel? :shock:
 
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When their offensive production differs by only 1.6 points per game, it's dishonest to suggest Texas's offense (and thus Young) is responsible for Texas having a 35.4 to 27 edge in margin of victory, a difference of 8.4 ppg. 
This part stood out to me. Young, with decent players, scores 1.6 points more than USC, with a team practically full of All-Americans and future NFL players? Speaks volumes about Young IMO.

Margin of victory isn't a good argument either way.
To be objective, it is only fair to say that UT sports as many pro-prospects (or more) as USC, including 3 first rounders, minimum, this year. (Wright, Scott, Huff)Colin
HowTF is this relevent to the discussion? Wright and Huff don't help Young make plays, whereas the other 3 top 10 picks on the USC offense go a long way toward making the defense play honest.
Didn't say it was relevent. i was simply answering the previous posters bit about Texas's prospects. It has no bearing here - just talking foo'ball. :)
 
when opponents defend USC, they have to defend Leinart, Bush, White, Jarrett, etc. when you play texas, you defend Young, Young, and Young.

I live in SoCal, and Bush went to high school about 20 minutes from my apartment, but Young deserves the trophy this year, IMO.
Really? Because Texas has the #2 rushing offense in the nation at 284.3 per game, and of that Vince only averages 77. Uh, that's a pretty solid run game, and hardly the one dimensional if Vince doesn't get it done Texas loses picture people want to pain. Vince is good, even great, no question, but some are acting like he's carrying Texas, and he isn't. They're a pretty darn good club, and likely would be no worse than 1 loss, even if he's not there. The Big 12 is down this year, as many of the traditional powerhouses struggle. Conversely, they're the 35th ranked passing offense. Efficient? Absolutely, but their run game is very stong. Good RB's? No, IMHO it's a solid line and a solid scheme.

There are 3 players this year that merit consideration, but IMHO, Bush is just a spectacular player with the ball in his hands. He shouldn't be penalized because he's playing with 3 other (maybe even 4) 1st round NFL picks, that deserve to see the ball. To me that's crazy.

I just believe Bush deserves the honor. I''ve said before. I think Lendale will make a better NFL back, as in pure runner. But, for the multiple dimensions Reggie brings, he deserves the honor.

 
When their offensive production differs by only 1.6 points per game, it's dishonest to suggest Texas's offense (and thus Young) is responsible for Texas having a 35.4 to 27 edge in margin of victory, a difference of 8.4 ppg.
This part stood out to me. Young, with decent players, scores 1.6 points more than USC, with a team practically full of All-Americans and future NFL players? Speaks volumes about Young IMO.

Margin of victory isn't a good argument either way.
To be objective, it is only fair to say that UT sports as many pro-prospects (or more) as USC, including 3 first rounders, minimum, this year. (Wright, Scott, Huff)Colin
HowTF is this relevent to the discussion? Wright and Huff don't help Young make plays, whereas the other 3 top 10 picks on the USC offense go a long way toward making the defense play honest.
Didn't say it was relevent. i was simply answering the previous posters bit about Texas's prospects. It has no bearing here - just talking foo'ball. :)
You lost me here. Other top talented offensive players in USC has a big impact on how much a D can focus on Bush. The only player you mentioned that impacts Young is Scott, on the line. I'm fairly familiar with the Texas prospects, although I didn't realize Huff was quite that good.

 
I actually don't think Huff is that good - he isn't good enough in coverage, even as a SS. However, he's the top SS in the draft and should easily go in the top-40.Colin

 
when opponents defend USC, they have to defend Leinart, Bush, White, Jarrett, etc. when you play texas, you defend Young, Young, and Young.

I live in SoCal, and Bush went to high school about 20 minutes from my apartment, but Young deserves the trophy this year, IMO.
Really? Because Texas has the #2 rushing offense in the nation at 284.3 per game, and of that Vince only averages 77. Uh, that's a pretty solid run game, and hardly the one dimensional if Vince doesn't get it done Texas loses picture people want to pain. Vince is good, even great, no question, but some are acting like he's carrying Texas, and he isn't. They're a pretty darn good club, and likely would be no worse than 1 loss, even if he's not there. The Big 12 is down this year, as many of the traditional powerhouses struggle.
Take Young's 77 ypg away and where does Texas rank in rushing offense? Just ahead of Boise State, just behind Washington State.
 
When their offensive production differs by only 1.6 points per game, it's dishonest to suggest Texas's offense (and thus Young) is responsible for Texas having a 35.4 to 27 edge in margin of victory, a difference of 8.4 ppg.
This part stood out to me. Young, with decent players, scores 1.6 points more than USC, with a team practically full of All-Americans and future NFL players? Speaks volumes about Young IMO.

Margin of victory isn't a good argument either way.
To be objective, it is only fair to say that UT sports as many pro-prospects (or more) as USC, including 3 first rounders, minimum, this year. (Wright, Scott, Huff)Colin
HowTF is this relevent to the discussion? Wright and Huff don't help Young make plays, whereas the other 3 top 10 picks on the USC offense go a long way toward making the defense play honest.
Didn't say it was relevent. i was simply answering the previous posters bit about Texas's prospects. It has no bearing here - just talking foo'ball. :)
:thumbup:
 
And we're off...Shame that Reggie isn't able to play for A&M. Someone's going to get him towards the end of round 2 and be pleased. Colin

 
HE wasn't even the leading rusher on his team through the first two months of the season! I'm not saying he isn't a special player, and I certainly realize he is valuable to his team. But being a highlight reel doesn't make you the best player in the country. In his 4 games previous to Saturday, his statline is as follows:

54 carries, 343 yards (or 85 pg), 2 TDs

11 receptions, 89 yards (22.25 ypg), 2 TDs

He's not in the Top-50 of Div 1 in kick or punt returns.

That is a MONTH out of his season. The notion that one game would make the difference is absurd. To paraphrase/edit a question in a CNNSI CFB Mailbag, I'm surprised he got 500+ yards with so many of you hanging from his jock.

Conversly, Vince YOung's WORST game (Rice) featured 10/17 passing and no TDs. But, hey, by the way, he had 77 yards on 8 carries. For those of you with a short memory, Young had 506 yards against Oklahoma State including 267 on the ground. As an added "better than" to Bush, he didn't get caught from behind twice inside the 10 on his big game.

The fact that some people think its an open and shut case for Bush either (a) havent been watching Texas play or (b) are enamored with highlight reels. Come to think of it, I'd be willing to wager that MANY people slobbing on Bush didn't make it through all 4 quarters of the game against Fresno but rather caught the highlights the next day. I'm not hacking on that, b/c the game was late, but come on.

Bush's best play of the year was not last Saturday, it was pushing Matt Leinart across the line against Notre Dame.

The Longhorn average margin of victory this season has been 35.4, including beating Ohio State, Oklahoma, and Texas Tech.

The Trojans average margin of victory is 27, with quality wins against Oregon, Notre Dame, and Fresno.

More: Texas averages more rushing yards a game than USC, but they don't have two 1st round RBs. Interesting.

The great part about this is we can discuss it all day long and it's unlikely anyone's opinion will change.

The worst part is you myopic Bush jock-hangers are going to have me rooting for Texas in the Rose Bowl, which will be akin to eating glass with a side of acid. :X
Here's the answer to your question Colin,Those numbers you posted are decieving at best. Sure he only averaged 85 yards per game with 54 carries earning him 343 yards over 4 games. The part your conveniently leaving out is that he is also averaging 13.5 carries per game over that 4 game stretch then. And those 22 yards per game catching average would be because he only caught an average of 2.75 catches per game.

I tend to like to focus on the yards per carry stat personally(afterall, even LT has been held to under a hundred yards on several occasions(Denver has done this specifially on several occasions)). During that 4 game stretch, Reggie Bush has averaged 6.35 ypc, never being shut down to 4.0 ypc or under(Cal got closest with allowing him 4.8 ypc). That is an impressive feat, that not many(if any) other college RB's can claim.

Harrison had 4ypc against Oregon, DeAngelo had 3.5 ypc against Mississippi, Maroney had 3.0 ypc against PSU and 3.6 at Mich., Calhoun had 1.8 against PSU and 1.2 against Iowa. Even his running mate(your top runner on USC) has 2.6(notre dame), 3.5(washington), and 3.0(Fresno).

As for the Heisman, the question that should be asked, is not who has done the most with the tools provided(that would be for an overall MVP). The question should be(imo) could anyone else step into the same role and do the same or better? IMO I think the if either Marcus Vick or Matt Linhart stepped into the Texas offense they would succeed as well or better(there are probably others that I'm not thinking of as well).

As for Bush, I don't think any other running back in the nation could do the things that Bush does, or have the success that he has. LenDale White doesn't even provide the same success. I also believe that if Bush were placed in any other system and he would have the same success that he's seeing now, if not better(as he wouldn't be sharing carries either). I just don't see the same for Young.

Chad

 
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As for the Heisman, the question that should be asked, is not who has done the most with the tools provided(that would be for an overall MVP). The question should be(imo) could anyone else step into the same role and do the same or better? IMO I think the if either Marcus Vick or Matt Linhart stepped into the Texas offense they would succeed as well or better(there are probably others that I'm not thinking of as well). As for Bush, I don't think any other running back in the nation could do the things that Bush does, or have the success that he has. LenDale White doesn't even provide the same success. I also believe that if Bush were placed in any other system and he would have the same success that he's seeing now, if not better(as he wouldn't be sharing carries either). I just don't see the same for Young.
Hasn't Lendale White done as well or better than Bush on a regular basis? We don't have to guess if "another player" could step in and do what Bush does because we've seen White do it.Who's to say Young couldn't step in at USC and do better than Leinart? He DOES have a higher PER despite having less-talented recievers.Colin
 
Who's to say Young couldn't step in at USC and do better than Leinart? He DOES have a higher PER despite having less-talented recievers.

Colin
:thumbup: I guess we are in agreement then.

I won't suggest that a player on the best all-around team can't win the Heisman, but everything needs to be considered, not just stats and highlights.

IMO, the best player has the most impact on the game. That is Young this year.

Bush may be the better pro-prospect, but that has NEVER been a consideration in voting.

 
As for the Heisman, the question that should be asked, is not who has done the most with the tools provided(that would be for an overall MVP). The question should be(imo) could anyone else step into the same role and do the same or better? IMO I think the if either Marcus Vick or Matt Linhart stepped into the Texas offense they would succeed as well or better(there are probably others that I'm not thinking of as well).

As for Bush, I don't think any other running back in the nation could do the things that Bush does, or have the success that he has. LenDale White doesn't even provide the same success. I also believe that if Bush were placed in any other system and he would have the same success that he's seeing now, if not better(as he wouldn't be sharing carries either). I just don't see the same for Young.
Hasn't Lendale White done as well or better than Bush on a regular basis? We don't have to guess if "another player" could step in and do what Bush does because we've seen White do it.Who's to say Young couldn't step in at USC and do better than Leinart? He DOES have a higher PER despite having less-talented recievers.

Colin
Stats for White for the season, 163 carries, 1024 yards, 6.3 ypc with 3 games under 4 ypc

12 catches, 184 yards, 15.3 ypc

20 TD's

Stats for Bush for the season:

163 carries, 1398 yards, 8.6 ypc, with no games under 4 ypc

31 catches, 383 yards, 12.4 ypc

16 TD's

As for if Young would do better at USC, I really don't think he would. I think Linhart makes the decent recievers there good, not vice versa. But I don't see Young stepping into ANY other system and doing what he does at Tex, but I can see several other QB's step into Tex and do the same or better, Linhart and Vick are just two examples. If Young isn't even elite at his own position, how can he be the best player in college football? However, Bush is elite. There are just no other RB's doing ALL the things that Bush does.

I think people just don't want to see what this kid does because everyone else is touting him so high. Your right Colin, Bush is a human highlight reel. Every time he touches the ball something electric could happen. You can't say the same thing about Young or Linhart, or any other heisman hopeful.

Chad

 
This is just ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. A person can make a logical argument for Bush or Leinart or Young, but to say things like "If Young isn't even elite at his own position, how can he be the best player in college football? " or "Every time he touches the ball something electric could happen. You can't say the same thing about Young..." is insane. Have you seen Vince Young play? How - using ANY definition you concoct - is Young "not elite" at Quarterback? How - using ANY definition of 'electric' that you can concoct re: football does Young not qualify but Bush does? Colin

 
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As for if Young would do better at USC, I really don't think he would. I think Linhart makes the decent recievers there good, not vice versa. But I don't see Young stepping into ANY other system and doing what he does at Tex, but I can see several other QB's step into Tex and do the same or better, Linhart and Vick are just two examples. If Young isn't even elite at his own position, how can he be the best player in college football? However, Bush is elite. There are just no other RB's doing ALL the things that Bush does.

I think people just don't want to see what this kid does because everyone else is touting him so high. Your right Colin, Bush is a human highlight reel. Every time he touches the ball something electric could happen. You can't say the same thing about Young or Linhart, or any other heisman hopeful.

Chad
How many Texas games have you watched? I won't disrespect Leinart, he plays his position very well, and is a major reason Bush is succeeding. But every time Young has the ball, something electric can happen as well. I've watched this guy progress for the last couple years, and I haven't stopped being impressed yet.

As for Young not being able to step into another program and do as well... at least for stats, he'd do better at Texas Tech.

In the end, there's no proof backing any of this, for either side, so the debate will continue.

 
...furthermore, people talk about game-planning for BUsh by opposing defenses as if the team's that play Texas are thinking, "You know, we should try and neuatralize Billy Pittman at WR and make Vince Young beat us..."People game plan for Young as much, if not more, than they have to gameplan for Bush.

 
...furthermore, people talk about game-planning for BUsh by opposing defenses as if the team's that play Texas are thinking, "You know, we should try and neuatralize Billy Pittman at WR and make Vince Young beat us..."

People game plan for Young as much, if not more, than they have to gameplan for Bush.
:confused: How is this even close? No other player at Texas is going to dominate the game.

I don't see how anyone would make the argument you're refuting here.

 
...furthermore, people talk about game-planning for BUsh by opposing defenses as if the team's that play Texas are thinking, "You know, we should try and neuatralize Billy Pittman at WR and make Vince Young beat us..."

People game plan for Young as much, if not more, than they have to gameplan for Bush.
:confused: How is this even close? No other player at Texas is going to dominate the game.

I don't see how anyone would make the argument you're refuting here.
Apples and Oranges.... one is a QB the other is a RB. You are only helping the Bush side by even acknowleging that it is close. IT SHOULD NOT BE ANYWHERE NEAR CLOSE. Think about it for a minute. The QB touches the ball EVERY SINGLE play no matter what. Of course he should be game planned for more. Horrible point for your side IMO.
 
This is just ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. A person can make a logical argument for Bush or Leinart or Young, but to say things like "If Young isn't even elite at his own position, how can he be the best player in college football? " or "Every time he touches the ball something electric could happen. You can't say the same thing about Young..." is insane.

Have you seen Vince Young play? How - using ANY definition you concoct - is Young "not elite" at Quarterback? How - using ANY definition of 'electric' that you can concoct re: football does Young not qualify but Bush does?

Colin
Colin,I define elite as head and sholders above the rest of the players at that position. I'm sorry to disappoint you but Young just isn't. I'm not, nor have I been terribly impressed with the things he does. Yes he is a QB, so yes, he does make things happen(as does any QB with an undefeated team). Does he do it often enough to make him special? I just don't think he does anything "special" above what other top caliber college QB's do. So no, I don't see his "electric" quality.

BTW, the yardage totals given for Bush do not include his return yardage or TD's either.

Chad

 
...furthermore, people talk about game-planning for BUsh by opposing defenses as if the team's that play Texas are thinking, "You know, we should try and neuatralize Billy Pittman at WR and make Vince Young beat us..."

People game plan for Young as much, if not more, than they have to gameplan for Bush.
:confused: How is this even close? No other player at Texas is going to dominate the game.

I don't see how anyone would make the argument you're refuting here.
Apples and Oranges.... one is a QB the other is a RB. You are only helping the Bush side by even acknowleging that it is close. IT SHOULD NOT BE ANYWHERE NEAR CLOSE. Think about it for a minute. The QB touches the ball EVERY SINGLE play no matter what. Of course he should be game planned for more. Horrible point for your side IMO.
The reading comprehension in this thread is very poor.Someone asserted that Bush was "elite" even though by their own admission, Lendale White is doing almost exactly the same things. Defenses have to focus on probable #1 overall pick Matt Leinart and probably 1st round pick Lendale White when they face the Trojans as much as they have to focus on Bush. When team's play Texas, the only person they have to gameplan for is Young. That makes a big difference. It's a heck of a lot easier for Bush to be "elite" when he has two other very good skill players taking attention from the defense. Now, the original poster apparently has a hard time calling Young "elite", but his row is a bit harder to hoe since he's the focus of the defense.

The QB touches the ball EVERY SINGLE play no matter what. Of course he should be game planned for more.
IS this your way of acknowledging that Matt Leinart is gameplanned for more than Bush? If so, doesn't that weaken the argument for Bush being the best player around, if Leinart is taking more defensive attention?Colin

 
This is just ridiculous.  Absolutely ridiculous.  A person can make a logical argument for Bush or Leinart or Young, but to say things like "If Young isn't even elite at his own position, how can he be the best player in college football? " or "Every time he touches the ball something electric could happen. You can't say the same thing about Young..." is insane. 

Have you seen Vince Young play?  How - using ANY definition you concoct - is Young "not elite" at Quarterback?  How - using ANY definition of 'electric' that you can concoct re: football does Young not qualify but Bush does? 

Colin
Colin,I define elite as head and sholders above the rest of the players at that position. I'm sorry to disappoint you but Young just isn't. I'm not, nor have I been terribly impressed with the things he does. Yes he is a QB, so yes, he does make things happen(as does any QB with an undefeated team). Does he do it often enough to make him special? I just don't think he does anything "special" above what other top caliber college QB's do. So no, I don't see his "electric" quality.

BTW, the yardage totals given for Bush do not include his return yardage or TD's either.

Chad
Holy friggin' cow. As I have pointed out a zillion times, Bush had an ENTIRE MONTH where he did NOTHING OF NOTE, and you think it's a good idea to say Young doesn't do it "often enough?" :lmao: You're kidding, right?With the possible exception of Leinart's long 4th down pass against Notre Dame, Young's 80 yard TD run against OSU is easily the most "special" play a QB has made all year.

Elite as head and shoulder's above the competition? So, only one player at each position can be elite? That makes no sense. None.

Colin

 
I define elite as head and sholders above the rest of the players at that position.
Elite as head and shoulder's above the competition? So, only one player at each position can be elite? That makes no sense. None.Colin
If I read this right, if Leinart and Young are close, neither is "elite" buy loco's definition.On the same token, I guess LT, Alexander, Peyton Manning, Randy Moss, Chad Johnson... etc. aren't elite either. Gates may be the only elite player in all of football with this train of logic. But wait, is he heads and shoulders ahead of Gonzo or Shockey? So maybe there aren't any elite players.

 
...furthermore, people talk about game-planning for BUsh by opposing defenses as if the team's that play Texas are thinking, "You know, we should try and neuatralize Billy Pittman at WR and make Vince Young beat us..."

People game plan for Young as much, if not more, than they have to gameplan for Bush.
:confused: How is this even close? No other player at Texas is going to dominate the game.

I don't see how anyone would make the argument you're refuting here.
Apples and Oranges.... one is a QB the other is a RB. You are only helping the Bush side by even acknowleging that it is close. IT SHOULD NOT BE ANYWHERE NEAR CLOSE. Think about it for a minute. The QB touches the ball EVERY SINGLE play no matter what. Of course he should be game planned for more. Horrible point for your side IMO.
The reading comprehension in this thread is very poor.Someone asserted that Bush was "elite" even though by their own admission, Lendale White is doing almost exactly the same things. Defenses have to focus on probable #1 overall pick Matt Leinart and probably 1st round pick Lendale White when they face the Trojans as much as they have to focus on Bush. When team's play Texas, the only person they have to gameplan for is Young. That makes a big difference. It's a heck of a lot easier for Bush to be "elite" when he has two other very good skill players taking attention from the defense. Now, the original poster apparently has a hard time calling Young "elite", but his row is a bit harder to hoe since he's the focus of the defense.

The QB touches the ball EVERY SINGLE play no matter what. Of course he should be game planned for more.
IS this your way of acknowledging that Matt Leinart is gameplanned for more than Bush? If so, doesn't that weaken the argument for Bush being the best player around, if Leinart is taking more defensive attention?Colin
Wow, could you be any more of a homer on this one Colin? There is little use carrying this on. If you have somehow convinced yourslef that White is doing almost the same thing as Bush when Bush averages 2.3 YPA more than White, you've simply lost your mind.Your the one who stated...

People game plan for Young as much, if not more, than they have to gameplan for Bush.
...not somebody else. Maybe you should check your own words before saying that people lack reading comprension.If you want my opinion on the matter it is this. Bush is, like you said, game planned for just as much as both Leinart and Young if not more. Seeing the disparity in position and touches per game, that alone is an amazing feet. By your own admission Bush is at least in the same realm as Young and he is as you and all the other Bush-whackers call him is not even a true primary RB. Again, I ask you to think about that for a minute. A RB that isn't even touching the ball anywhere close the amount normally associated with RB1 levels is being game planned for in the same ballpark as your golden boy QB who touches it EVERY PLAY OF THE GAME. This is very telling as to who the best and most dynamic player in the nation is. It's #5 at USC.

 
...furthermore, people talk about game-planning for BUsh by opposing defenses as if the team's that play Texas are thinking, "You know, we should try and neuatralize Billy Pittman at WR and make Vince Young beat us..."

People game plan for Young as much, if not more, than they have to gameplan for Bush.
:confused: How is this even close? No other player at Texas is going to dominate the game.

I don't see how anyone would make the argument you're refuting here.
Apples and Oranges.... one is a QB the other is a RB. You are only helping the Bush side by even acknowleging that it is close. IT SHOULD NOT BE ANYWHERE NEAR CLOSE. Think about it for a minute. The QB touches the ball EVERY SINGLE play no matter what. Of course he should be game planned for more. Horrible point for your side IMO.
The reading comprehension in this thread is very poor.Someone asserted that Bush was "elite" even though by their own admission, Lendale White is doing almost exactly the same things. Defenses have to focus on probable #1 overall pick Matt Leinart and probably 1st round pick Lendale White when they face the Trojans as much as they have to focus on Bush. When team's play Texas, the only person they have to gameplan for is Young. That makes a big difference. It's a heck of a lot easier for Bush to be "elite" when he has two other very good skill players taking attention from the defense. Now, the original poster apparently has a hard time calling Young "elite", but his row is a bit harder to hoe since he's the focus of the defense.

The QB touches the ball EVERY SINGLE play no matter what.  Of course he should be game planned for more.
IS this your way of acknowledging that Matt Leinart is gameplanned for more than Bush? If so, doesn't that weaken the argument for Bush being the best player around, if Leinart is taking more defensive attention?Colin
Wow, could you be any more of a homer on this one Colin? There is little use carrying this on. If you have somehow convinced yourslef that White is doing almost the same thing as Bush when Bush averages 2.3 YPA more than White, you've simply lost your mind.Your the one who stated...

People game plan for Young as much, if not more, than they have to gameplan for Bush.
...not somebody else. Maybe you should check your own words before saying that people lack reading comprension.If you want my opinion on the matter it is this. Bush is, like you said, game planned for just as much as both Leinart and Young if not more. Seeing the disparity in position and touches per game, that alone is an amazing feet. By your own admission Bush is at least in the same realm as Young and he is as you and all the other Bush-whackers call him is not even a true primary RB. Again, I ask you to think about that for a minute. A RB that isn't even touching the ball anywhere close the amount normally associated with RB1 levels is being game planned for in the same ballpark as your golden boy QB who touches it EVERY PLAY OF THE GAME. This is very telling as to who the best and most dynamic player in the nation is. It's #5 at USC.
Bush touches the ball plenty. For you to site a lack of carries strictly as a RB out of the backfield is disingeneous. Similarly, my assertion is that team's gameplan for Bush, but not at the expense of gameplanning for Leinart or White. UT's opponent gameplan for YOung. And when they're done with that, they watch more tape of Young. Why this isn't obvious to you is baffling.I'm hardly being a homer here - I happen to think Leinart is going tobe a significantly better pro than Young and Bush and WHite. As much as people forget, there have been LOTS of gamebreaker types like Bush. How on earth do you think Charles Woodson was able to win the Heisman? It had everythign to do with the fear he instilled in other team's depsite getting very very few actual "touches."

If Bush wins the Heisman, he'll deserve it. I'm fine with that. THe problem I have is all the goobers who were nowhere to be found for weeks on end who caught Sunday morning highlights of Bush against FSU and have suddenly annointed him Jesus in Addidas. It was a special game. But one game does not a season make. If so, were those people firmly in YOung's camp after the OkSt game?

Colin

 
If you want my opinion on the matter it is this. Bush is, like you said, game planned for just as much as both Leinart and Young if not more. Seeing the disparity in position and touches per game, that alone is an amazing feet. By your own admission Bush is at least in the same realm as Young and he is as you and all the other Bush-whackers call him is not even a true primary RB. Again, I ask you to think about that for a minute. A RB that isn't even touching the ball anywhere close the amount normally associated with RB1 levels is being game planned for in the same ballpark as your golden boy QB who touches it EVERY PLAY OF THE GAME. This is very telling as to who the best and most dynamic player in the nation is. It's #5 at USC.
So you're saying an opposing D can game plan for two players on one offense as much as one? Maybe the coaches take half the week off before they play Texas? (That would explain my Jayhawks performance... ;) ) Nobody is arguing that Bush isn't in the same realm of talent as Young, it's plain to see that they are both among the most talented players in football.

 
As much as people forget, there have been LOTS of gamebreaker types like Bush. How on earth do you think Charles Woodson was able to win the Heisman? It had everythign to do with the fear he instilled in other team's depsite getting very very few actual "touches."
:goodposting: "Touches" is far overrated until people want to say that Randy Moss was never a focus of a defense. (Good luck making that argument)

If Bush wins the Heisman, he'll deserve it. I'm fine with that. THe problem I have is all the goobers who were nowhere to be found for weeks on end who caught Sunday morning highlights of Bush against FSU and have suddenly annointed him Jesus in Addidas. It was a special game. But one game does not a season make. If so, were those people firmly in YOung's camp after the OkSt game?

Colin
:lol:
 
If you want my opinion on the matter it is this. Bush is, like you said, game planned for just as much as both Leinart and Young if not more. Seeing the disparity in position and touches per game, that alone is an amazing feet. By your own admission Bush is at least in the same realm as Young and he is as you and all the other Bush-whackers call him is not even a true primary RB. Again, I ask you to think about that for a minute. A RB that isn't even touching the ball anywhere close the amount normally associated with RB1 levels is being game planned for in the same ballpark as your golden boy QB who touches it EVERY PLAY OF THE GAME. This is very telling as to who the best and most dynamic player in the nation is. It's #5 at USC.
So you're saying an opposing D can game plan for two players on one offense as much as one? Maybe the coaches take half the week off before they play Texas? (That would explain my Jayhawks performance... ;) ) Nobody is arguing that Bush isn't in the same realm of talent as Young, it's plain to see that they are both among the most talented players in football.
...and again you guys are trying to put words in other peoples mouths. No, I believe the supporting cast for Texas is FAAAR greater than you and Colin are giving them credit for. They have a top 3 Oline who is simply amazing in pass protection, 2-3 fantastic RBs and 3-4 super talented WRs. None are the household names you will find at USC (which should be expected given USC success), but they are all being severly underrated by you guys in your love affair with Young IMO.
 
As much as people forget, there have been LOTS of gamebreaker types like Bush.
Riiiight, sight for me please all these other players who can average 8.6 yds per carry throughout a season while being the 3rd leading rusher in the nation.....
 

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