Reggie Bush is a slightly better than avg rb in the NFL (1 Viewer)

[Thumper]

If you took away all the hype from Reggie Bush, all you would be left with is a slightly better than average running back. If you took away his pass catching skills he would be a well below avg running back in the NFL.

To me he is simply not (and never will be) a dominant NFL running back.

I just don't get all the hype.

With Deuce gone you would think that Bush would be able to step up like lesser name backs like E.Graham have done. Instead Bush has many people starting to question exactly how good Reggie Bush truly is.

Bush was clearly not worth the #1 overall pick in the draft. It seems the Texans were correct.

 

[Pskov1420]

Good thing he didn't go at #1 then.

 

[Bogart]

Makes you wonder if the Texans are smarter than we thought they were. Super Mario is turning into a very, very good player on the other side of the line. And at this point, I think you would take Schaub over VY right now.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Makes you wonder if the Texans are smarter than we thought they were.

They aren't, simply because just about every other team in the NFL would have taken Bush 1st overall, so by taking someone else, the Texans didn't get the full value of the number 1 slot.

 

[Joe Bryant]

He's not Gale Sayers?

J

 

[mad sweeney]

If you took away all the hype from Reggie Bush, all you would be left with is a slightly better than average running back. If you took away his pass catching skills he would be a well below avg running back in the NFL.To me he is simply not (and never will be) a dominant NFL running back.I just don't get all the hype.With Deuce gone you would think that the #1 pick in the 2006 draft would be able to step up like lesser name backs like E.Graham have done. Instead Bush has many people starting to question exactly how good Reggie Bush truly is.Bush was clearly not worth the #1 overall pick in the draft.

Which draft did he go #1 in?

 

[jamil]

Makes you wonder if the Texans are smarter than we thought they were.

They aren't, simply because just about every other team in the NFL would have taken Bush 1st overall, so by taking someone else, the Texans didn't get the full value of the number 1 slot.

I think getting a dominant DE at any point of the draft is being smart.

 

[EBF]

 

[Big Sug]

He's not Gale Sayers? J

nope, he's Eric Metcalf.nice player, but:[ ] the franchise[ ] worth #2 overall[ ] worth mid 1st round in fantasy football redrafts[x] none of the above

 

[CGRdrJoe]

If you take away his arms and legs you can call him Matt.

 

[-OZ-]

Makes you wonder if the Texans are smarter than we thought they were.

They aren't, simply because just about every other team in the NFL would have taken Bush 1st overall, so by taking someone else, the Texans didn't get the full value of the number 1 slot.

:whoosh:your logic is horrible unless you're implying that someone would have traded up (which I think they tried)Ryan Leaf was a consensus top 2 pick in 1999, most every team in the NFL would have taken him #2. Does that mean he was a better pick than Charles Woodson? Randy Moss? Matt Hasselbeck?

 

[Dt's Mules]

still standing behind my prediction that he will never rush for 1300 yards in a season from last year.

although, he did get his ypc up to 3.7 after today's game :whoosh:

 

[Dt's Mules]

Makes you wonder if the Texans are smarter than we thought they were.

They aren't, simply because just about every other team in the NFL would have taken Bush 1st overall, so by taking someone else, the Texans didn't get the full value of the number 1 slot.

:whoosh:your logic is horrible unless you're implying that someone would have traded up (which I think they tried)Ryan Leaf was a consensus top 2 pick in 1999, most every team in the NFL would have taken him #2. Does that mean he was a better pick than Charles Woodson? Randy Moss? Matt Hasselbeck?

i think that is exactly what he is implying...and even if they would have gotten a can of coke to trade down, they would have been better off if williams was their man all alongplus if they draft williams lower, they get a marginal break on their cap as they would have been able to sign him for marginally less.so it seems they were probably half smart

 

[the spanker]

Not trying to hijack this thread but I just saw in the injury thread that Bush has an ankle injury? I checked Rotoworld but can't find anything.

Was Bush injured?

 

[EBF]

I'm a bit tired of defending him, so I'll keep it simple:

1. Reggie Bush receives more attention from defenses than most of the other RBs in the NFL do.

2. The Saints are not a very good football team.

3. Reggie Bush's performance, while certainly not spectacular, hasn't been terrible.

I'll definitely concede that Bush hasn't played like a star this season, but whether or not that falls entirely on his shoulders is debatable. The Saints are lousy and I'm really wondering if Sean Payton is even a competent head coach. A poor supporting cast and coaching staff can make a very good RB look pretty average. We're seeing that this season with Marshawn Lynch, Larry Johnson, and Clinton Portis.

I won't be rushing out to acquire Bush this offseason, but the bust talk is silly and premature.

 

[-OZ-]

Makes you wonder if the Texans are smarter than we thought they were.

They aren't, simply because just about every other team in the NFL would have taken Bush 1st overall, so by taking someone else, the Texans didn't get the full value of the number 1 slot.

:whoosh:your logic is horrible unless you're implying that someone would have traded up (which I think they tried)Ryan Leaf was a consensus top 2 pick in 1999, most every team in the NFL would have taken him #2. Does that mean he was a better pick than Charles Woodson? Randy Moss? Matt Hasselbeck?

i think that is exactly what he is implying...and even if they would have gotten a can of coke to trade down, they would have been better off if williams was their man all alongplus if they draft williams lower, they get a marginal break on their cap as they would have been able to sign him for marginally less.so it seems they were probably half smart

they may have been brilliant, but nobody wanted to trade up, we just don't know. Hell, for all we know the NFL GMs really didn't want Reggie. I know they said otherwise, but can we be sure they're telling the whole truth?

 

[snellman]

I'm a bit tired of defending him, so I'll keep it simple:1. Reggie Bush receives more attention from defenses than most of the other RBs in the NFL do.2. The Saints are not a very good football team. 3. Reggie Bush's performance, while certainly not spectacular, hasn't been terrible. I'll definitely concede that Bush hasn't played like a star this season, but whether or not that falls entirely on his shoulders is debatable. The Saints are lousy and I'm really wondering if Sean Payton is even a competent head coach. A poor supporting cast and coaching staff can make a very good RB look pretty average. We're seeing that this season with Marshawn Lynch, Larry Johnson, and Clinton Portis. I won't be rushing out to acquire Bush this offseason, but the bust talk is silly and premature.

What does that make Adrian Peterson then.

 

[EBF]

I'm a bit tired of defending him, so I'll keep it simple:1. Reggie Bush receives more attention from defenses than most of the other RBs in the NFL do.2. The Saints are not a very good football team. 3. Reggie Bush's performance, while certainly not spectacular, hasn't been terrible. I'll definitely concede that Bush hasn't played like a star this season, but whether or not that falls entirely on his shoulders is debatable. The Saints are lousy and I'm really wondering if Sean Payton is even a competent head coach. A poor supporting cast and coaching staff can make a very good RB look pretty average. We're seeing that this season with Marshawn Lynch, Larry Johnson, and Clinton Portis. I won't be rushing out to acquire Bush this offseason, but the bust talk is silly and premature.

What does that make Adrian Peterson then.

A great back on a team with a very good offensive line?

 

[Heatman]

Makes you wonder if the Texans are smarter than we thought they were.

They aren't, simply because just about every other team in the NFL would have taken Bush 1st overall, so by taking someone else, the Texans didn't get the full value of the number 1 slot.

your logic is horrible unless you're implying that someone would have traded up (which I think they tried)Ryan Leaf was a consensus top 2 pick in 1999, most every team in the NFL would have taken him #2. Does that mean he was a better pick than Charles Woodson? Randy Moss? Matt Hasselbeck?

i think that is exactly what he is implying...and even if they would have gotten a can of coke to trade down, they would have been better off if williams was their man all alongplus if they draft williams lower, they get a marginal break on their cap as they would have been able to sign him for marginally less.so it seems they were probably half smart

But to get Williams they would have had to trade down only 1 spot. I highly doubt New Orleans was going to give anything to move up one spot, they had too many needs at the time and they had Duece at RB. So to think they could have gotten Williams lower is not accurate. They did what I would think is the smart thing. They entertained trade offers. Then after not getting an offer they felt gave them enough value they brought in the guys at the top of their board and began negotiating. They ended up taking the guy they felt was a better value for their club, even though the REST of the league, "experts", and fans were saying they made the wrong choice they stood their ground. Kudos to them especially since it's playing out the way it is. If Bush suddenly "gets it" and becomes a star I still say kudos to the Texans management.

 

[Franchise Playa]

Makes you wonder if the Texans are smarter than we thought they were.

They aren't, simply because just about every other team in the NFL would have taken Bush 1st overall, so by taking someone else, the Texans didn't get the full value of the number 1 slot.

your logic is horrible unless you're implying that someone would have traded up (which I think they tried)Ryan Leaf was a consensus top 2 pick in 1999, most every team in the NFL would have taken him #2. Does that mean he was a better pick than Charles Woodson? Randy Moss? Matt Hasselbeck?

i think that is exactly what he is implying...and even if they would have gotten a can of coke to trade down, they would have been better off if williams was their man all alongplus if they draft williams lower, they get a marginal break on their cap as they would have been able to sign him for marginally less.so it seems they were probably half smart

But to get Williams they would have had to trade down only 1 spot. I highly doubt New Orleans was going to give anything to move up one spot, they had too many needs at the time and they had Duece at RB. So to think they could have gotten Williams lower is not accurate. They did what I would think is the smart thing. They entertained trade offers. Then after not getting an offer they felt gave them enough value they brought in the guys at the top of their board and began negotiating. They ended up taking the guy they felt was a better value for their club, even though the REST of the league, "experts", and fans were saying they made the wrong choice they stood their ground. Kudos to them especially since it's playing out the way it is. If Bush suddenly "gets it" and becomes a star I still say kudos to the Texans management.

Isn't this much like last year though? Mario plays badly and the Texans are dumb to take him....Reggie has a good finish which adds to that perception....and now Reggie struggles and Mario has 4 or 5 good games and now the Texans are smart. It seems like the perception of who got the better deal fluctuates with the play of each guy...

 

[mad sweeney]

Makes you wonder if the Texans are smarter than we thought they were.

They aren't, simply because just about every other team in the NFL would have taken Bush 1st overall, so by taking someone else, the Texans didn't get the full value of the number 1 slot.

your logic is horrible unless you're implying that someone would have traded up (which I think they tried)Ryan Leaf was a consensus top 2 pick in 1999, most every team in the NFL would have taken him #2. Does that mean he was a better pick than Charles Woodson? Randy Moss? Matt Hasselbeck?

i think that is exactly what he is implying...and even if they would have gotten a can of coke to trade down, they would have been better off if williams was their man all alongplus if they draft williams lower, they get a marginal break on their cap as they would have been able to sign him for marginally less.so it seems they were probably half smart

But to get Williams they would have had to trade down only 1 spot. I highly doubt New Orleans was going to give anything to move up one spot, they had too many needs at the time and they had Duece at RB. So to think they could have gotten Williams lower is not accurate. They did what I would think is the smart thing. They entertained trade offers. Then after not getting an offer they felt gave them enough value they brought in the guys at the top of their board and began negotiating. They ended up taking the guy they felt was a better value for their club, even though the REST of the league, "experts", and fans were saying they made the wrong choice they stood their ground. Kudos to them especially since it's playing out the way it is. If Bush suddenly "gets it" and becomes a star I still say kudos to the Texans management.

Isn't this much like last year though? Mario plays badly and the Texans are dumb to take him....Reggie has a good finish which adds to that perception....and now Reggie struggles and Mario has 4 or 5 good games and now the Texans are smart. It seems like the perception of who got the better deal fluctuates with the play of each guy...

Bush' influence goes way beyond on field performance. He was instrumental in his role last year int he Saints resurgence. There's no way that Mario Williams would've had the smae inspiring impact on the city that Bush had. I'm sure he would've put in as much money and effort to charity, but having the Heisman winner drop in their laps certainly boosted the city and the team. Defenses were game planning for him, despite the fact that he was a backup. He was used well out of the backfield, not just as a RB. And if Deuce was still around Reggie would still be a #1 weapon. Is he a great RB1? Not so much, though it's only his second year. But his influence on the team and the city is immeasurably bigger than Williams would've been. I don't believe the Saints would've made the playoffs last year if not for Bush, whether his actual yardage or just his presence on the field needing to be accounted for.

 

[Lash]

HOU did NOT do the smartest thing they could do

they COULD have traded down one or two spots, grabbed 2-3 more first day picks in 2007 and/or 2008

picked Mario Williams still

AND not have had to pay Mario as much and thus saved capspace

they picked the right player ... but with all the hype, Bush could have nearly garnered a herschel walker pick lottery

 

[NoFBinLA]

I'm a bit tired of defending him, so I'll keep it simple:1. Reggie Bush receives more attention from defenses than most of the other RBs in the NFL do.2. The Saints are not a very good football team. 3. Reggie Bush's performance, while certainly not spectacular, hasn't been terrible. I'll definitely concede that Bush hasn't played like a star this season, but whether or not that falls entirely on his shoulders is debatable. The Saints are lousy and I'm really wondering if Sean Payton is even a competent head coach. A poor supporting cast and coaching staff can make a very good RB look pretty average. We're seeing that this season with Marshawn Lynch, Larry Johnson, and Clinton Portis. I won't be rushing out to acquire Bush this offseason, but the bust talk is silly and premature.

What does that make Adrian Peterson then.

The Purple Jesus.

 

[Franchise Playa]

Makes you wonder if the Texans are smarter than we thought they were.

They aren't, simply because just about every other team in the NFL would have taken Bush 1st overall, so by taking someone else, the Texans didn't get the full value of the number 1 slot.

your logic is horrible unless you're implying that someone would have traded up (which I think they tried)Ryan Leaf was a consensus top 2 pick in 1999, most every team in the NFL would have taken him #2. Does that mean he was a better pick than Charles Woodson? Randy Moss? Matt Hasselbeck?

i think that is exactly what he is implying...and even if they would have gotten a can of coke to trade down, they would have been better off if williams was their man all alongplus if they draft williams lower, they get a marginal break on their cap as they would have been able to sign him for marginally less.so it seems they were probably half smart

But to get Williams they would have had to trade down only 1 spot. I highly doubt New Orleans was going to give anything to move up one spot, they had too many needs at the time and they had Duece at RB. So to think they could have gotten Williams lower is not accurate. They did what I would think is the smart thing. They entertained trade offers. Then after not getting an offer they felt gave them enough value they brought in the guys at the top of their board and began negotiating. They ended up taking the guy they felt was a better value for their club, even though the REST of the league, "experts", and fans were saying they made the wrong choice they stood their ground. Kudos to them especially since it's playing out the way it is. If Bush suddenly "gets it" and becomes a star I still say kudos to the Texans management.

Isn't this much like last year though? Mario plays badly and the Texans are dumb to take him....Reggie has a good finish which adds to that perception....and now Reggie struggles and Mario has 4 or 5 good games and now the Texans are smart. It seems like the perception of who got the better deal fluctuates with the play of each guy...

Bush' influence goes way beyond on field performance. He was instrumental in his role last year int he Saints resurgence. There's no way that Mario Williams would've had the smae inspiring impact on the city that Bush had. I'm sure he would've put in as much money and effort to charity, but having the Heisman winner drop in their laps certainly boosted the city and the team. Defenses were game planning for him, despite the fact that he was a backup. He was used well out of the backfield, not just as a RB. And if Deuce was still around Reggie would still be a #1 weapon. Is he a great RB1? Not so much, though it's only his second year. But his influence on the team and the city is immeasurably bigger than Williams would've been. I don't believe the Saints would've made the playoffs last year if not for Bush, whether his actual yardage or just his presence on the field needing to be accounted for.

I completely agree...though the off the field affect he has is not counted by his critics who demand him produce the numbers that match his talent....On the other hand they also hold him to a regular RB standard in which he is not a "regular" back. He has to be utilized correctly to be as effective as he should be. And nowadays people have so little patience and think the Tiki's and Westbrooks of the world came out the gate as good as they are now which is not the case. Add to that I believe the emergence of Adrian Peterson adds even more fuel for the critics who wonder "why can't you do that?"

 

[SSOG]

He's not Gale Sayers? J

nope, he's Eric Metcalf.nice player, but:[ ] the franchise[ ] worth #2 overall[ ] worth mid 1st round in fantasy football redrafts[x] none of the above

He's the #10 RB in fantasy football. I'd say that's worth a mid-fist round selection, PPR or no PPR.

 

[Heatman]

HOU did NOT do the smartest thing they could dothey COULD have traded down one or two spots, grabbed 2-3 more first day picks in 2007 and/or 2008picked Mario Williams stillAND not have had to pay Mario as much and thus saved capspacethey picked the right player ... but with all the hype, Bush could have nearly garnered a herschel walker pick lottery

Bush and Williams were pretty much the consensus top 2, so you're telling me that NO would have given a 2nd and possibly a 3rd to move up one spot to take Bush? Remember, the saints were horrible coming into last year and had a lot of holes to fill... or so it seemed. Highly unlikely they give that up to move up one spot. If Houston moves down to 3rd they miss out on the guy they wanted because Mario would have been a Saint in that case.

 

[Tau837]

For those who are including Mario's performance to date in their thinking on this:

Keep in mind, Mario Williams doesn't turn 23 until January 31, 2008. He was very young entering the NFL. He isn't even close to his prime yet. He has already proven to be the right pick IMO, given position scarcity and the quality of his play, and he will only improve from here.

 

[dparker713]

Umm, how is it Williams or Bush. They passed on the hometown hero VY to pay David Carr another 8 mil and waste a year of everyone's lives.

 

[Lash]

HOU did NOT do the smartest thing they could dothey COULD have traded down one or two spots, grabbed 2-3 more first day picks in 2007 and/or 2008picked Mario Williams stillAND not have had to pay Mario as much and thus saved capspacethey picked the right player ... but with all the hype, Bush could have nearly garnered a herschel walker pick lottery

Bush and Williams were pretty much the consensus top 2, so you're telling me that NO would have given a 2nd and possibly a 3rd to move up one spot to take Bush? Remember, the saints were horrible coming into last year and had a lot of holes to fill... or so it seemed. Highly unlikely they give that up to move up one spot. If Houston moves down to 3rd they miss out on the guy they wanted because Mario would have been a Saint in that case.

forget about holes, NO was just coming off talk of losing their franchise circa 2006 draft, they wouldve traded an 06 3rd and 07 3rd to get Bush at #1they needed a marketing breakthroughnothing to back up my statement obviously, but pretty sure of it's correctness

 

[SSOG]

Umm, how is it Williams or Bush. They passed on the hometown hero VY to pay David Carr another 8 mil and waste a year of everyone's lives.

How's Vince Young been looking so far this season?

 

[kingmalaki]

Makes you wonder if the Texans are smarter than we thought they were.

They aren't, simply because just about every other team in the NFL would have taken Bush 1st overall, so by taking someone else, the Texans didn't get the full value of the number 1 slot.

your logic is horrible unless you're implying that someone would have traded up (which I think they tried)Ryan Leaf was a consensus top 2 pick in 1999, most every team in the NFL would have taken him #2. Does that mean he was a better pick than Charles Woodson? Randy Moss? Matt Hasselbeck?

i think that is exactly what he is implying...and even if they would have gotten a can of coke to trade down, they would have been better off if williams was their man all alongplus if they draft williams lower, they get a marginal break on their cap as they would have been able to sign him for marginally less.so it seems they were probably half smart

But to get Williams they would have had to trade down only 1 spot. I highly doubt New Orleans was going to give anything to move up one spot, they had too many needs at the time and they had Duece at RB. So to think they could have gotten Williams lower is not accurate. They did what I would think is the smart thing. They entertained trade offers. Then after not getting an offer they felt gave them enough value they brought in the guys at the top of their board and began negotiating. They ended up taking the guy they felt was a better value for their club, even though the REST of the league, "experts", and fans were saying they made the wrong choice they stood their ground. Kudos to them especially since it's playing out the way it is. If Bush suddenly "gets it" and becomes a star I still say kudos to the Texans management.

Isn't this much like last year though? Mario plays badly and the Texans are dumb to take him....Reggie has a good finish which adds to that perception....and now Reggie struggles and Mario has 4 or 5 good games and now the Texans are smart. It seems like the perception of who got the better deal fluctuates with the play of each guy...

Yes and no. The Texans were roasted for passing on Bush because he was supposed to be the next great back, the best prospect ever, the next Sayers, etc. I won't say he can't have a very productive career, but I have no qualms saying he won't ever turn into the type of back that he was hyped up to be. The texans were roasted for passing on "that kind" of player....

 

[dparker713]

Umm, how is it Williams or Bush. They passed on the hometown hero VY to pay David Carr another 8 mil and waste a year of everyone's lives.

How's Vince Young been looking so far this season?

The Titans are 7-5 and in the playoff hunt. They've owned the Texans the last 4 times they played them (6 in a row actually) and the Texans are 5-7 and floundering after a decent start. Oh, and while VY's ints are up this year, he's dramatically increased his completion percentage, had a modest bump in YPA and , and is on pace for similar TD totals. All this with a group of WRs that are significantly worse than last year and may be the worst corps in the league. I'd say he's progressing quite well.

 

[mr. furley]

Isn't this much like last year though? Mario plays badly and the Texans are dumb to take him....Reggie has a good finish which adds to that perception....and now Reggie struggles and Mario has 4 or 5 good games and now the Texans are smart. It seems like the perception of who got the better deal fluctuates with the play of each guy...

welcome to the Shark Pool.guys go from world class busts to Hall of Famers in a week's time. given a 2-3 game stretch of poor play you'll see people screaming that players should be cut from NFL rosters. 2-3 good games in a row and there is talk of their position among the all-time greats.it's pretty awful

 

[SSOG]

Umm, how is it Williams or Bush. They passed on the hometown hero VY to pay David Carr another 8 mil and waste a year of everyone's lives.

How's Vince Young been looking so far this season?

The Titans are 7-5 and in the playoff hunt. They've owned the Texans the last 4 times they played them (6 in a row actually) and the Texans are 5-7 and floundering after a decent start. Oh, and while VY's ints are up this year, he's dramatically increased his completion percentage, had a modest bump in YPA and , and is on pace for similar TD totals. All this with a group of WRs that are significantly worse than last year and may be the worst corps in the league. I'd say he's progressing quite well.

Yes, the Titans are 7-5 and in the playoff hunt. Yes, they've beaten Houston the last 4 times they've played. None of this answers my question.You can spout off all of the team stats you want, but it won't change a thing. Haynesworth has been unbelievable and the defense has been carrying the team. This does not make Vince Young a good QB. You know what would make Vince Young a good QB so far in his career? If he played well. And so far, he hasn't. Not even close. You could put Vince Young on the 1985 Bears or the 2000 Ravens and he might win a superbowl, but that wouldn't make him a good QB.Look, if you want some stats to convey how bad Vince Young has been, I'd be happy to oblige. If you like Football Outsiders, then Young ranks 36th in the league in passing DVOA (out of 47), and 22nd in the league in DVOA rushing (out of 31). If you prefer more conventional statistics, Vince Young ranks 30th in the league in passer rating (out of 34), and has thrown 2 INTs for every TD this season (and this is after his 2-TD, 1-INT game today) His completion percentage is artificially inflated, much like David Carr's was last season (and only ranks 16th in the NFL, anyway), because he's throwing too many short passes and dumpoffs, and his ypa might be a tick over his rookie season, but it's still 24th in the NFL. He's been, not to put too fine a point on it, absolutely HORRIBLE this year. He might turn into a great pro, but it's pretty darn silly to say that Vince Young has demonstrated that he'd be a better pick than Mario Williams based on the play of Albert Haynesworth this season.If you really want to say that Houston needed a QB more than a DE, Cutler has been night-and-day better than Young to this point in their careers. Either way, that Matt Schaub thing wound up working out pretty well for them.

 

[happy_donut]

Isn't this much like last year though? Mario plays badly and the Texans are dumb to take him....Reggie has a good finish which adds to that perception....and now Reggie struggles and Mario has 4 or 5 good games and now the Texans are smart. It seems like the perception of who got the better deal fluctuates with the play of each guy...

welcome to the Shark Pool.guys go from world class busts to Hall of Famers in a week's time. given a 2-3 game stretch of poor play you'll see people screaming that players should be cut from NFL rosters. 2-3 good games in a row and there is talk of their position among the all-time greats.it's pretty awful

Except you forgot to mention that there are haters who won't like a player no matter what they do. On the flip side, there are the apologists....that's the Shark Pool.Edited to add: There is good info on the Shark Pool though. You just need to wade through the above to get to a lot of it. It is better than most...

 

[dparker713]

Umm, how is it Williams or Bush. They passed on the hometown hero VY to pay David Carr another 8 mil and waste a year of everyone's lives.

How's Vince Young been looking so far this season?

The Titans are 7-5 and in the playoff hunt. They've owned the Texans the last 4 times they played them (6 in a row actually) and the Texans are 5-7 and floundering after a decent start. Oh, and while VY's ints are up this year, he's dramatically increased his completion percentage, had a modest bump in YPA and , and is on pace for similar TD totals. All this with a group of WRs that are significantly worse than last year and may be the worst corps in the league. I'd say he's progressing quite well.

Yes, the Titans are 7-5 and in the playoff hunt. Yes, they've beaten Houston the last 4 times they've played. None of this answers my question.You can spout off all of the team stats you want, but it won't change a thing. Haynesworth has been unbelievable and the defense has been carrying the team. This does not make Vince Young a good QB. You know what would make Vince Young a good QB so far in his career? If he played well. And so far, he hasn't. Not even close. You could put Vince Young on the 1985 Bears or the 2000 Ravens and he might win a superbowl, but that wouldn't make him a good QB.Look, if you want some stats to convey how bad Vince Young has been, I'd be happy to oblige. If you like Football Outsiders, then Young ranks 36th in the league in passing DVOA (out of 47), and 22nd in the league in DVOA rushing (out of 31). If you prefer more conventional statistics, Vince Young ranks 30th in the league in passer rating (out of 34), and has thrown 2 INTs for every TD this season (and this is after his 2-TD, 1-INT game today) His completion percentage is artificially inflated, much like David Carr's was last season (and only ranks 16th in the NFL, anyway), because he's throwing too many short passes and dumpoffs, and his ypa might be a tick over his rookie season, but it's still 24th in the NFL. He's been, not to put too fine a point on it, absolutely HORRIBLE this year. He might turn into a great pro, but it's pretty darn silly to say that Vince Young has demonstrated that he'd be a better pick than Mario Williams based on the play of Albert Haynesworth this season.If you really want to say that Houston needed a QB more than a DE, Cutler has been night-and-day better than Young to this point in their careers. Either way, that Matt Schaub thing wound up working out pretty well for them.

The Titans have next to no talent on offense outside of Vince. Care to explain how exactly they went from a horrid running team at the start of last year, into one of the best in the NFL since? Yes, he's dumping off alot. Might that be because he doesnt have any WRs that get separation? And Cutler is surrounder by plenty of players with talent, Marshall, Walker, and Stokely would all be the best WR on the Titans. Considering his surrounding cast, I see plenty of improvement in VY this year, especially after losing Henry this offseason.Meanwhile, Mario has had a decent year. But he takes plays off, and he is not a dominant player. Despite the use of draft pick after draft pick on the Dline, its merely mediocre. Sadly, it still might be the best part of the team.

 

[GregR_2]

If you took away all the hype from Reggie Bush, all you would be left with is a slightly better than average running back. If you took away his pass catching skills he would be a well below avg running back in the NFL.To me he is simply not (and never will be) a dominant NFL running back.I just don't get all the hype.With Deuce gone you would think that Bush would be able to step up like lesser name backs like E.Graham have done. Instead Bush has many people starting to question exactly how good Reggie Bush truly is.Bush was clearly not worth the #1 overall pick in the draft. It seems the Texans were correct.

It was really annoying as a Texans fan this last off-season listening to all the criticism of Mario. Valid criticism such as whether he gives full effort all the time I've got no problem with. But if Vince Young played the majority of that season with an injured elbow and Bush played through a high ankle sprain, people would have taken that into account. Yet Mario played through an injury that most players won't play through because of the pain, an injury that limits how much he could push off with his foot, which obviously is a big deal for a defensive end. He didn't even practice the last half of the season. It was stupid for anyone to try to draw direct comparisons between Mario and the other two unless they were going to assume he'd have that injury for his whole career, but that didn't seem to matter to anyone.And I think it's still way too early to say how things will play out. I expect Vince to improve, and part of that may be the Titans changing up their offense more to cover up his weaknesses if he doesn't improve his decision making soon. Bush... I'm really not sure what to expect there, frankly. I thought he'd do better than he has. I expected him to do a lot better than this once Deuce went down. It isn't like the Saints have an inept passing game that can't take some pressure off the running game being focused on.I do think this... Reggie Bush was probably the wrong pick for the Texans. There are some valid concerns there that he's not showing much when it comes to the heart of what a RB needs to do, run the ball. But mainly I say that because he doesn't fit the Texans offensive system. As much as I hate saying it, Ron Dayne is a better fit for the Texans than is Reggie Bush. (Not that I want to see another year of Ron Dayne toting the rock for us.) Bush is not a one cut and go type of runner. He dances at the first sight of an opposing jersey, and the Texans scheme needs a guy who is going to attack the hole hard to force gap discipline by the other team's linebackers to open up the bootleg and such.That said, I wanted the Texans to take Bush. I thought they could find ways to use him. But seeing how poor his yards per receptions are this year, I'm currently pretty happy that if we were going to get one or the other, that we got Mario. At the moment he seems likely to come closer to living up to his salary than Bush.

 

[SSOG]

Umm, how is it Williams or Bush. They passed on the hometown hero VY to pay David Carr another 8 mil and waste a year of everyone's lives.

How's Vince Young been looking so far this season?

The Titans are 7-5 and in the playoff hunt. They've owned the Texans the last 4 times they played them (6 in a row actually) and the Texans are 5-7 and floundering after a decent start. Oh, and while VY's ints are up this year, he's dramatically increased his completion percentage, had a modest bump in YPA and , and is on pace for similar TD totals. All this with a group of WRs that are significantly worse than last year and may be the worst corps in the league. I'd say he's progressing quite well.

Yes, the Titans are 7-5 and in the playoff hunt. Yes, they've beaten Houston the last 4 times they've played. None of this answers my question.You can spout off all of the team stats you want, but it won't change a thing. Haynesworth has been unbelievable and the defense has been carrying the team. This does not make Vince Young a good QB. You know what would make Vince Young a good QB so far in his career? If he played well. And so far, he hasn't. Not even close. You could put Vince Young on the 1985 Bears or the 2000 Ravens and he might win a superbowl, but that wouldn't make him a good QB.Look, if you want some stats to convey how bad Vince Young has been, I'd be happy to oblige. If you like Football Outsiders, then Young ranks 36th in the league in passing DVOA (out of 47), and 22nd in the league in DVOA rushing (out of 31). If you prefer more conventional statistics, Vince Young ranks 30th in the league in passer rating (out of 34), and has thrown 2 INTs for every TD this season (and this is after his 2-TD, 1-INT game today) His completion percentage is artificially inflated, much like David Carr's was last season (and only ranks 16th in the NFL, anyway), because he's throwing too many short passes and dumpoffs, and his ypa might be a tick over his rookie season, but it's still 24th in the NFL. He's been, not to put too fine a point on it, absolutely HORRIBLE this year. He might turn into a great pro, but it's pretty darn silly to say that Vince Young has demonstrated that he'd be a better pick than Mario Williams based on the play of Albert Haynesworth this season.If you really want to say that Houston needed a QB more than a DE, Cutler has been night-and-day better than Young to this point in their careers. Either way, that Matt Schaub thing wound up working out pretty well for them.

The Titans have next to no talent on offense outside of Vince. Care to explain how exactly they went from a horrid running team at the start of last year, into one of the best in the NFL since? Yes, he's dumping off alot. Might that be because he doesnt have any WRs that get separation? And Cutler is surrounder by plenty of players with talent, Marshall, Walker, and Stokely would all be the best WR on the Titans. Considering his surrounding cast, I see plenty of improvement in VY this year, especially after losing Henry this offseason.

Lots of players have poor surrounding casts, but it takes a special kind of suck to post a 1:2 TD:INT ratio. And for all the talk about Cutler's weapons, where's the talk that out of Denver's 5 offensive linemen, not a single one was playing his current position 16 games ago? Nalen's on IR, Hamilton's on IR, Lepsis was on IR last year, Eric Pears was playing LT last year. George Foster and Cooper Carlisle both left town. Denver has three starters on the line with 16 games or less on their resume, a fourth starter who's brand new to the system this year, and a fifth who is coming off of a season-ending injury that typically takes 2 years to recover from. Cutler's also lost Walker for pretty much the entire season so far, and his RBs have all been injured throughout the year. Maybe at the beginning of the season there was a talent gap, but at this very moment, there's not a huge talent gap between Denver and Tennessee on offense right now. Add in the fact that Cutler's having to constantly play hero because Denver's defense blows chunks, while Young can just sit back and play safe because his defense has been carrying his team.VY might have improved over last season (I don't buy it, but I acknowledge that the possibility exists), but that doesn't mean he's played the best of any QB drafted in that class, and it certainly doesn't mean he's played better than Mario Williams (or even Matt Schaub, the guy the Texans got instead of Young).

 

[BusterTBronco]

Perhaps you missed the New Orleans Saints going to the NFC Championship game last year. I guess Reggie Bush had nothing to do with that.

In PPR leagues, Bush was the 4th best RB coming into this week. I guess, in your world, that's just slightly above average.

Also, if the Texans made the "right" choice, why are they so bad?

 

[dparker713]

Umm, how is it Williams or Bush. They passed on the hometown hero VY to pay David Carr another 8 mil and waste a year of everyone's lives.

How's Vince Young been looking so far this season?

The Titans are 7-5 and in the playoff hunt. They've owned the Texans the last 4 times they played them (6 in a row actually) and the Texans are 5-7 and floundering after a decent start. Oh, and while VY's ints are up this year, he's dramatically increased his completion percentage, had a modest bump in YPA and , and is on pace for similar TD totals. All this with a group of WRs that are significantly worse than last year and may be the worst corps in the league. I'd say he's progressing quite well.

Yes, the Titans are 7-5 and in the playoff hunt. Yes, they've beaten Houston the last 4 times they've played. None of this answers my question.You can spout off all of the team stats you want, but it won't change a thing. Haynesworth has been unbelievable and the defense has been carrying the team. This does not make Vince Young a good QB. You know what would make Vince Young a good QB so far in his career? If he played well. And so far, he hasn't. Not even close. You could put Vince Young on the 1985 Bears or the 2000 Ravens and he might win a superbowl, but that wouldn't make him a good QB.Look, if you want some stats to convey how bad Vince Young has been, I'd be happy to oblige. If you like Football Outsiders, then Young ranks 36th in the league in passing DVOA (out of 47), and 22nd in the league in DVOA rushing (out of 31). If you prefer more conventional statistics, Vince Young ranks 30th in the league in passer rating (out of 34), and has thrown 2 INTs for every TD this season (and this is after his 2-TD, 1-INT game today) His completion percentage is artificially inflated, much like David Carr's was last season (and only ranks 16th in the NFL, anyway), because he's throwing too many short passes and dumpoffs, and his ypa might be a tick over his rookie season, but it's still 24th in the NFL. He's been, not to put too fine a point on it, absolutely HORRIBLE this year. He might turn into a great pro, but it's pretty darn silly to say that Vince Young has demonstrated that he'd be a better pick than Mario Williams based on the play of Albert Haynesworth this season.If you really want to say that Houston needed a QB more than a DE, Cutler has been night-and-day better than Young to this point in their careers. Either way, that Matt Schaub thing wound up working out pretty well for them.

The Titans have next to no talent on offense outside of Vince. Care to explain how exactly they went from a horrid running team at the start of last year, into one of the best in the NFL since? Yes, he's dumping off alot. Might that be because he doesnt have any WRs that get separation? And Cutler is surrounder by plenty of players with talent, Marshall, Walker, and Stokely would all be the best WR on the Titans. Considering his surrounding cast, I see plenty of improvement in VY this year, especially after losing Henry this offseason.

Lots of players have poor surrounding casts, but it takes a special kind of suck to post a 1:2 TD:INT ratio. And for all the talk about Cutler's weapons, where's the talk that out of Denver's 5 offensive linemen, not a single one was playing his current position 16 games ago? Nalen's on IR, Hamilton's on IR, Lepsis was on IR last year, Eric Pears was playing LT last year. George Foster and Cooper Carlisle both left town. Denver has three starters on the line with 16 games or less on their resume, a fourth starter who's brand new to the system this year, and a fifth who is coming off of a season-ending injury that typically takes 2 years to recover from. Cutler's also lost Walker for pretty much the entire season so far, and his RBs have all been injured throughout the year. Maybe at the beginning of the season there was a talent gap, but at this very moment, there's not a huge talent gap between Denver and Tennessee on offense right now. Add in the fact that Cutler's having to constantly play hero because Denver's defense blows chunks, while Young can just sit back and play safe because his defense has been carrying his team.VY might have improved over last season (I don't buy it, but I acknowledge that the possibility exists), but that doesn't mean he's played the best of any QB drafted in that class, and it certainly doesn't mean he's played better than Mario Williams (or even Matt Schaub, the guy the Texans got instead of Young).

There isnt much of a talent gap in large part because of all the abilities VY brings to a game. It's been evident since he became a starter that his presence helps open up running lanes. Yeah, VYs got too many ints this year and not nearly enough TDs, yet they're winning. He's producing enough points and not hurting his team too much. As for other players, Schaub cant stay on the field and is just as much of a turn over machine as VY despite have a couple of extra years in the league. And watch some Texans games, Mario disappears for long stretches at a time. Sure, hes starter quality DE, but he's not playing all that well on a game to game or even down to down basis. Cutler sure is beating VY every place but where it matters, the W-L column. I didn't think VY was all that good once upon a time. Doubted he could elevate his game play and develop into a premier passer in college football or overcome the weak coaching of Mack Brown. I was wrong. The guy will make himself better and already has the quality so few QBs posses in the NFL - he's a winner.

 

[Football Jones]

Bush is a really good FF player if you're in a PPR league. He's still not bad if you're in a non-PPR league. That said, real world, he just might not be the best RB on his team (I'm dead serious). That would be Pierre Thomas, IMO. This cat can play. He reminds me of Marion Barber in that he's extremely hard to get on the ground. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see his role increase exponentially next season.

 

[Kirby]

He's a WR playing running back. They need get it over with and move him to WR.

 

[tick dog]

He's not Gale Sayers? J

He's not even LenDale White.

 

[moleculo]

He's a WR playing running back. They need get it over with and move him to WR.

You are talking about Vince Young, right? I agree.

 

[Tanner9919]

Eric Metcalf, v2.0

 

[mon]

I can't afford his recent 8-9 points a game crap, especially going into the playoffs. I'm replacing him in two leagues with Barber and C. Taylor. I really thought he'd get better as the season progressed, but it appears he's gotten worse.

 

[sib]

Any way you cut it Reggie Bush has been a huge disappointment. 581 rushing yards and 4Tds..and this after Deuce getting injured for the year in the 3rd game of the season.

If it wasn't for PPR leagues, Bush wouldn't have any supporters. The folks that defend Bush often start it off with "well in my PPR league Bush is doing pretty well...." Guys like Ron Dayne, Ryan Grant, Derrick Ward, and Warrick Dunn have all outrushed him. Hell even Ronnie Brown still has more rushing yards than this guy

And yes I have Reggie Bush in a dynasty league..and yes it's a PPR league, but the reality is the guy has been a huge disappointment. The numbers that Adrian Peterson is putting up..that's the way Reggie was hyped..and Reggie is no Adrian Peterson. Also his 5.7 yards per reception is nothing to really brag about..

 

[Buckna]

HOU did NOT do the smartest thing they could dothey COULD have traded down one or two spots, grabbed 2-3 more first day picks in 2007 and/or 2008picked Mario Williams stillAND not have had to pay Mario as much and thus saved capspacethey picked the right player ... but with all the hype, Bush could have nearly garnered a herschel walker pick lottery

Bush and Williams were pretty much the consensus top 2, so you're telling me that NO would have given a 2nd and possibly a 3rd to move up one spot to take Bush? Remember, the saints were horrible coming into last year and had a lot of holes to fill... or so it seemed. Highly unlikely they give that up to move up one spot. If Houston moves down to 3rd they miss out on the guy they wanted because Mario would have been a Saint in that case.

forget about holes, NO was just coming off talk of losing their franchise circa 2006 draft, they wouldve traded an 06 3rd and 07 3rd to get Bush at #1they needed a marketing breakthroughnothing to back up my statement obviously, but pretty sure of it's correctness

Then you would be wrong. The Texans talked to the Saints and they were perfectly content to sit at #2 and take either Bush or Mario. The Texans talked to the Saints, Titans and Jets and none would move up. This has been documented and linked to in about a million previous Mario vs Reggie threads.

 

[Franchise Playa]

Any way you cut it Reggie Bush has been a huge disappointment. 581 rushing yards and 4Tds..and this after Deuce getting injured for the year in the 3rd game of the season.If it wasn't for PPR leagues, Bush wouldn't have any supporters. The folks that defend Bush often start it off with "well in my PPR league Bush is doing pretty well...." Guys like Ron Dayne, Ryan Grant, Derrick Ward, and Warrick Dunn have all outrushed him. Hell even Ronnie Brown still has more rushing yards than this guy And yes I have Reggie Bush in a dynasty league..and yes it's a PPR league, but the reality is the guy has been a huge disappointment. The numbers that Adrian Peterson is putting up..that's the way Reggie was hyped..and Reggie is no Adrian Peterson. Also his 5.7 yards per reception is nothing to really brag about..

Yeah since Reggie has been fully healthy the whole season, and NO as a team has played awesome this year in all facets, without questionable playcalling and line play Reggie should be the top back in FF.... players with injuries on struggling teams are bums...I agree.

 

[teamroc]

Any way you cut it Reggie Bush has been a huge disappointment. 581 rushing yards and 4Tds..and this after Deuce getting injured for the year in the 3rd game of the season.If it wasn't for PPR leagues, Bush wouldn't have any supporters. The folks that defend Bush often start it off with "well in my PPR league Bush is doing pretty well...." Guys like Ron Dayne, Ryan Grant, Derrick Ward, and Warrick Dunn have all outrushed him. Hell even Ronnie Brown still has more rushing yards than this guy And yes I have Reggie Bush in a dynasty league..and yes it's a PPR league, but the reality is the guy has been a huge disappointment. The numbers that Adrian Peterson is putting up..that's the way Reggie was hyped..and Reggie is no Adrian Peterson. Also his 5.7 yards per reception is nothing to really brag about..

Yeah since Reggie has been fully healthy the whole season, and NO as a team has played awesome this year in all facets, without questionable playcalling and line play Reggie should be the top back in FF.... players with injuries on struggling teams are bums...I agree.

Nice excuse. AD is on a struggling team for most of the season. No QB. No WR. No TE.Bush had AD type hype. AD lived up to it. Bush hasn't. Blame whatever you want. LT joined a AWFUL team in his rookie year. Bush has done the least with the most. Other RBs like MJD have done the most with the least. Bush gets FAR more plays called for him then AD. AD has big play ability. Bush clearly doesn't. One big play per 200 touches isnt big play ability. AD is like one in 10.