Reggie Bush (1 Viewer)

[Gargoylez]

The point you are missing... and I am sure sidewinder has some spin he can throw out there...

He is NOT producing whether or not people game plan for him.

Everyone game plans for LT... guess what... LT has never had a 13 rush -5 game in his career!!!!

With the money that is being paid to Bush, he should be in terms, getting LT style numbers and productions.

He is not, and he is close to being a detriment to their RUNNING game. Getting caught behind the LOS time and time again is making it harder for BRees & Co. to pick up first downs. So far so good, BRees is having a season NO ONE would of expected... but that is going to bite them in the ### kinda like Baltimore.

If he was paid how he is performing he would be at rookie Minimum, maybe a little more and a small bonus.

If they are winning games, putting butts in the seats and having a successful offense, then I guess it really doesn't matter if Bush is doing good or not. But the point trying to be made is NOT NO winning games, it is Bushs production and it is among the leagues worst.

When you take into account the differing salary cap the year each contract was given out, Bush got on par with what Benson and Ronnie Brown got in terms of percentage of team cap used, and all three of whom got less than LT did in both his rookie contract and his extension.I hope you're not saying that Benson and Ronnie Brown are expected to put up LT numbers too. You would hope Bush would be more productive than he's been for what he's getting paid, but equating him to LT is a bit much. If we're going to do that, hold the horses on the Bush thread and start the Benson bashing thread, because he's done less to earn his money than has Bush.

Benson is a bust... and Brown has done fair...So they are not worth the money either....

Bush has a good offense and a QB to take the heat off the running game... there is NO excuse for him to suck this bad.

I beleive he can turn it around and be a very good back ala Westbrook style... but right now, he is playing like a 3rd string RB.

 

[cstu]

Here's Kevin Jones stats his rookie year through the first first 9 games:

+----------+-------------+--------+----+| WK OPP | RSH YD | RECYD | TD |+----------+-------------+--------+----+| 1 chi | 15 36 | 34 | 0 || 2 hou | 12 57 | 13 | 0 || 3 phi | 4 8 | 0 | 0 || 6 gnb | 2 5 | 0 | 0 || 7 nyg | 13 65 | 0 | 1 || 8 dal | 11 36 | 11 | 1 || 9 was | 12 20 | 3 | 0 |

He had a 3.3 YPC right before going off in the 2nd half and finishing with 1133 yards and a 4.7 YPC for the season.

 

[Sidewinder]

No Axe. Bucs suck, no one predicted that, and Brees stepped in like he was there longer then Brooks was, no one predicted that.But the topic of the thread is Reggie Bush not the New Orlean Saints.So until you read the topic and understand it, try not to spin everything to "The saints are winning." because that is NOT the topic.

Excuses excuses. Yawn. Quit crying about what "no one could have predicted". You're the one who flapped your gums, have a sack and take it like a man instead of a sniveling 5 year old.Look, I responded to the OP, and added some non-fantasy perspective. Sorry for "straying" from what you feel was the topic of the thread. If you don't like what I posted, ignore it and just move along, but don't try to tell me what I do or don't understand, or try to say I'm spinning anything.

 

[Bevo]

It wasn't so much that the Pac 10 defenses were bad, because he pulled the same unbelievable yardage against non-pac 10 teams. I really believe the USC offensive line was the best in the country last year. Also, the he got lots of yards on cut backs. In the NFL those same cut back lanes are blocked by linemen that can run just as fast as him.

Reggie will have a break out game sometime this year, my advice is buy low.

Probably yes to the USC line (at least a good case can be made), a resounding NO to the defensive linemen that run just as fast as Bush (name several, heck name one).

 

[strong]

Sidewinder

I feel what you are saying, but please don't use the TV analysts as support. I know they know a bunch about football but even you must admit that most of what they say is mainly geared around hype these days. I just would take their opinions with a grain of salt. I honestly think there is better football analysis on boards like these...

Well, mainly those ESPN dudes. They used to be a respectable news station. Now I think I'm watching MTV.....

Try "NFL Matchup" or some of the breakdowns on NFL Network -- for the most part, pretty good stuff without the hype and b.s. And while there are some very knowledgeable folks on boards like these, have they actually broken down game film for years like Jaws or Hoge have (as players and now analysts) ? Doubtful. I'll take their analysis talking real football, and stick to this board for fantasy stuff.

The point you are missing... and I am sure sidewinder has some spin he can throw out there...

He is NOT producing whether or not people game plan for him.

...

I have no reason to "spin" anything, don't own him on any fantasy team, and couldn't care less how much (or little) he produces as long as the Saints win.Seems as if you are the one with the axe to grind anyways -- seeing as how you ran your mouth about how bad the Saints were going to be this year (and for years to come). See, that's the thing about blabbing your mouth on a message board, it's very easy to save for posterity (see sig below).

No Axe. Bucs suck, no one predicted that, and Brees stepped in like he was there longer then Brooks was, no one predicted that.But the topic of the thread is Reggie Bush not the New Orlean Saints.

So until you read the topic and understand it, try not to spin everything to "The saints are winning." because that is NOT the topic.

Sounds to me like you're the one trying to put spin on the ball here... trouble is, it ain't breaking and you're hanging your curves over the middle of the plate. Sidewinder's providing a pretty detailed analysis of Bush's early results. You're spouting rhetoric and vague statements. And he is keeping it on topic:

New Orleans 6-2, McCallister doing fine., Line seems fine., Bush supposedly 6' 200lbs., my team wishes he would do better. Any ideas? (other than BUST)? Is he a Warrick Dunn who has to take several years to learn how to carry the ball in the NFL? What??

His very first post talked about the result of defenses keying in on him and used the two play action touchdowns as examples, as well as quotes from a defender and a defensive coordinator. He even questions why defenses are doing this:

To me, the real question is, why are teams continuing to defense the Saints this way, when Bush has not shown the ability to do damage running the ball ? With the way Brees is playing right now, and with Colston, Horn, and Henderson showing plenty of ability to make things happen in the passing game, IMHO we are going to start seeing defenses play more honest the rest of the year and we'll see if Bush has more success in the running game then.

He goes beyond yards per carry and advances his argument with pretty solid evidence. You? Not so much.

 

[Gargoylez]

Sidewinder

I feel what you are saying, but please don't use the TV analysts as support. I know they know a bunch about football but even you must admit that most of what they say is mainly geared around hype these days. I just would take their opinions with a grain of salt. I honestly think there is better football analysis on boards like these...

Well, mainly those ESPN dudes. They used to be a respectable news station. Now I think I'm watching MTV.....

Try "NFL Matchup" or some of the breakdowns on NFL Network -- for the most part, pretty good stuff without the hype and b.s. And while there are some very knowledgeable folks on boards like these, have they actually broken down game film for years like Jaws or Hoge have (as players and now analysts) ? Doubtful. I'll take their analysis talking real football, and stick to this board for fantasy stuff.

The point you are missing... and I am sure sidewinder has some spin he can throw out there...

He is NOT producing whether or not people game plan for him.

...

I have no reason to "spin" anything, don't own him on any fantasy team, and couldn't care less how much (or little) he produces as long as the Saints win.Seems as if you are the one with the axe to grind anyways -- seeing as how you ran your mouth about how bad the Saints were going to be this year (and for years to come). See, that's the thing about blabbing your mouth on a message board, it's very easy to save for posterity (see sig below).

No Axe. Bucs suck, no one predicted that, and Brees stepped in like he was there longer then Brooks was, no one predicted that.But the topic of the thread is Reggie Bush not the New Orlean Saints.

So until you read the topic and understand it, try not to spin everything to "The saints are winning." because that is NOT the topic.

Sounds to me like you're the one trying to put spin on the ball here... trouble is, it ain't breaking and you're hanging your curves over the middle of the plate. Sidewinder's providing a pretty detailed analysis of Bush's early results. You're spouting rhetoric and vague statements. And he is keeping it on topic:

New Orleans 6-2, McCallister doing fine., Line seems fine., Bush supposedly 6' 200lbs., my team wishes he would do better. Any ideas? (other than BUST)? Is he a Warrick Dunn who has to take several years to learn how to carry the ball in the NFL? What??

His very first post talked about the result of defenses keying in on him and used the two play action touchdowns as examples, as well as quotes from a defender and a defensive coordinator. He even questions why defenses are doing this:

To me, the real question is, why are teams continuing to defense the Saints this way, when Bush has not shown the ability to do damage running the ball ? With the way Brees is playing right now, and with Colston, Horn, and Henderson showing plenty of ability to make things happen in the passing game, IMHO we are going to start seeing defenses play more honest the rest of the year and we'll see if Bush has more success in the running game then.

He goes beyond yards per carry and advances his argument with pretty solid evidence. You? Not so much.

I didn't know Sidewinder had two aliases on the board?

Read the topic title...

 

[Gargoylez]

No Axe. Bucs suck, no one predicted that, and Brees stepped in like he was there longer then Brooks was, no one predicted that.But the topic of the thread is Reggie Bush not the New Orlean Saints.So until you read the topic and understand it, try not to spin everything to "The saints are winning." because that is NOT the topic.

Excuses excuses. Yawn. Quit crying about what "no one could have predicted". You're the one who flapped your gums, have a sack and take it like a man instead of a sniveling 5 year old.Look, I responded to the OP, and added some non-fantasy perspective. Sorry for "straying" from what you feel was the topic of the thread. If you don't like what I posted, ignore it and just move along, but don't try to tell me what I do or don't understand, or try to say I'm spinning anything.

Where was I sniveling, I mean REALLY? I was stating FACT. No one would of predicted this kind of success on the offensive side... at least not this early... and especially with Stallworth gone. I was 100% WRONG about Brees, I thought it was going to take him 6-8 weeks to get back to form, recover and learn the system. No one in their right mind would of predicted 186-284 2206 86L 14TD 7INT 95.2 Rating. That is Pro-Bowl caliber stats. Take Brees out of the equation, add Brooks and I beleive you don't have a very good team.So with your "Bush helps them win games theory", I don't buy it fully. It is an easy out for a player who has underperformed, PERIOD. Brees is the main reason they are winning so many games. I will also PROPS the offensive line, which was rated low in the off-season is playing at a very high level, considering Walters got sacked more in ONE game then Brees has ALL year. Lastly, the coaching staff... I am the most impressed with. I guess you start to realize how bad Brooks and Haslett were. Bring in a good caoch and you have yourself a great team.My Bucs... SUCK this year. WE have very few lights at the end of the tunnel with an aging defense and yet again a floundering offense. When a team was #1 defense a year prior, to tend to expect them to be back up there again despite not really losing anyone. Thats growing OLD in less then 8 months. I have always owned up to my predictions, or my MOUTH. But the year isn't over yet. I can't imagine the Saints are going to tank from here, considering they are the most consistant team in the South, but then again no one would of predicted this kind of start either.Finally, to keep on TOPIC, Bush has showed me and everyone else NOTHING. Running a kick back against Tampa that anyone with speed could of ran back, does not make up for the 8 weeks of crappery he has produced. 2.5 YPC and 1 TD? I don't care who you are and what defenses you play... that is just poor.

 

[Liquid Tension]

If you review his carries and categorize them as follows :

a) Negative Yards

b) Zero Yards

c) 1 Yard

d) 2 Yards or greater

He is currently at an alarming rate of 46% of his runs resulting in 1 yard or less [a, b, and c]!

This is nearly twice as often as Deuce behind the same line/ system/ etc.

It may be the "same line/system" but the types of plays they each typically run are very different. Rarely does Deuce run anything other than straight ahead between the tackles. Most of Bush's runs are deep pitches or draw plays, both of which are susceptible to losses, especially when teams key on Reggie the way they are right now. It is patently obvious that defenses are essentially saying, if you are going to beat us, it's not going to be because of Reggie Bush. Perfect example was this past Sunday - all three TD passes against Tampa were off play-action to Bush, and Henderson was wide open on both long TDs because of it. Tampa sold out to stop the run Sunday, most plays having 8 and sometimes even 9 in the box.To me, the real question is, why are teams continuing to defense the Saints this way, when Bush has not shown the ability to do damage running the ball ? With the way Brees is playing right now, and with Colston, Horn, and Henderson showing plenty of ability to make things happen in the passing game, IMHO we are going to start seeing defenses play more honest the rest of the year and we'll see if Bush has more success in the running game then.

And just for a reality (i.e., non- fantasy) check, doesn't seem like Sean Payton is too worried about Reggie's low ypc:

Payton: Bush bashers off base

His numbers might not be as eye-popping as hoped for the second pick in the NFL draft, but rookie tailback Reggie Bush is making a huge impact on New Orleans' on-field success midway through the season, Saints Coach Sean Payton said Monday. "I think he's doing fine," Payton said. "I see the 'Reggie Meter' that's in the newspaper and all that other stuff. It's silly. The meter is the team. We're 6-2. The expectation level on him is no different than anyone else on this team. We're winning football games. And he's a big part of why we're winning. Whether it's in the special teams aspect, the passing game. . . . I'm happy with the way this guy is playing."

Payton said the Buccaneers presented some difficult defensive fronts against which to run Sunday, and both Bush and Deuce McAllister were affected by that. The Saints rushed for 49 yards on 35 carries in the 31-14 victory. But Payton credited Bush with a critical blitz pickup on Bucs defensive back Ronde Barber on one of the long touchdown passes from Drew Brees to Devery Henderson.

"What I appreciate are guys that put the team ahead of any of their individual accomplishments. And sometimes it's often difficult to do when you're the second player drafted," Payton said. "People want to know what's going on with Reggie Bush after you just finish winning 30-something to whatever and go to 6-2.

I'm excited about him. I get as excited about him stepping up in a pressure situation in a dog and blitz standpoint, blocking the right guy and we throw a touchdown to Devery Henderson. That's exciting to me. I know it's not as exciting to you guys, but it's exciting to me. Otherwise, that guy hits the quarterback, and we never throw the ball." ...

Link

This is the real NFL even if we only care about fantasy production. I was on the short side of many threads this preseason where I said that Bush would have very little value in a redraft league with deuce being on the team. Of course, I was told that this guy is the greatest...and will be an instant success. It was obvious (at least to me) he would struggle running between the tackle, but would have ability to do some exciting things but they would not be consistent in his rookie year. Teams have keyed on him and that will slow down as NO takes advantage of that. Bush needs to elevate his awareness and game and I would expect him to do so. Will he ever have Deuce's short yardage ability, no, but there is no reason why he can't be a Portis guy as their build is similar or Westbrook because of his pass catching ability. Whether he is a little worse, equal or even better remains to be seen, but next year you will have a much better gauge than right now.

 

[Liquid Tension]

From Gargoyles:

"Benson is a bust... and Brown has done fair..."

I don't think Benson will continue to bust for you dynasty owners and Ronnie Brown has been doing much better than "fair" and extremely well when you consider his horrible OL. If he had an OL as good as half the teams he would be better than his already solid #8 ranking.

 

[Gargoylez]

From Gargoyles:"Benson is a bust... and Brown has done fair..."

I don't think Benson will continue to bust for you dynasty owners and Ronnie Brown has been doing much better than "fair" and extremely well when you consider his horrible OL. If he had an OL as good as half the teams he would be better than his already solid #8 ranking.

Benson has really done NOTHING except a few TD's sprinkled here and there, in NFL terms, he has severely underperformed his draft position. As far as FF, he would be LONG gone off my team... I had him last year with Jones, and no thank you ever again... As far as Dynasty, don't know, don't care, he is probably not going to be a Chicago Bear for more then another year IF that.

Brown is only going to be as good as Malarkey decides he is going to be. The Dolphins VS Bills, Brown had a 5.0+ YPC and he ran 4 times in the second half of that game. By all rights, if Brown ran 10-12 more times, thats 40-50 more yards, less time for the Bills and it would of taken pressure off of Daunte. So in Browns defense, Malarkey is the worst offensive coordinator in football IMO. He will suffer until Malarkey gets run out of town.

 

[Liquid Tension]

From Gargoyles:"Benson is a bust... and Brown has done fair..."

I don't think Benson will continue to bust for you dynasty owners and Ronnie Brown has been doing much better than "fair" and extremely well when you consider his horrible OL. If he had an OL as good as half the teams he would be better than his already solid #8 ranking.

Benson has really done NOTHING except a few TD's sprinkled here and there, in NFL terms, he has severely underperformed his draft position. As far as FF, he would be LONG gone off my team... I had him last year with Jones, and no thank you ever again... As far as Dynasty, don't know, don't care, he is probably not going to be a Chicago Bear for more then another year IF that.

Brown is only going to be as good as Malarkey decides he is going to be. The Dolphins VS Bills, Brown had a 5.0+ YPC and he ran 4 times in the second half of that game. By all rights, if Brown ran 10-12 more times, thats 40-50 more yards, less time for the Bills and it would of taken pressure off of Daunte. So in Browns defense, Malarkey is the worst offensive coordinator in football IMO. He will suffer until Malarkey gets run out of town.

Mularkey is terrible, but again RB has been more than fair and shows that he is a top talent. As for Benson, he has done nothing, but some people play in leagues where there are keepers or dynasty and I think Benson has some talent

 

[Sidewinder]

Where was I sniveling, I mean REALLY? I was stating FACT. No one would of predicted this kind of success on the offensive side... at least not this early... and especially with Stallworth gone. I was 100% WRONG about Brees, I thought it was going to take him 6-8 weeks to get back to form, recover and learn the system. No one in their right mind would of predicted 186-284 2206 86L 14TD 7INT 95.2 Rating. That is Pro-Bowl caliber stats. Take Brees out of the equation, add Brooks and I beleive you don't have a very good team....

Wow, how hard is this to understand ? Please explain how any of the following was or is FACT:

Just my view on things. I feel bad for duece. Hope he gets to a team that knows how to draft and make a run for the playoffs... cuz the saints are a good 2-3 years out in this division.Sorry I have a different opinion and sorry the truth hurts. 4th place in the south again... probably the next 2 years minimally... Carolina, Tampa and Atlanta will spank them with ease.

You can try and explain it away in any fashion you want, but it's still sniveling. And now you add Stallworth into the discussion as another reason you were wrong ? Take Brees out of the equation... ? When you so boldly stated your FACT that the Saints would "get spanked with ease", Brees had already been signed. Good grief man, give it up.

 

[Gargoylez]

You can try and explain it away in any fashion you want, but it's still sniveling.

What are you 12?

And now you add Stallworth into the discussion as another reason you were wrong ?

Whats your point? Take away a deep threat and more times then not, it will hurt the offense. I don't understand your reasoning... but I am sure me "sniveling" will come up yet again and please re-post what I said 3-4 months ago. That always proves your point.....

Take Brees out of the equation... ?

you have made no sense so far... take Brees out of the equation, what do you have? You have a CRAPPY team. Why can't you comprehend this? I did not think Brees would be so good so fast. Thats not a hard concept to understand. But I am sure something I said 2 years ago might make light of the situation. LOL! Brooks brought the Saints down, Haslett was not a very good coach... I was wrong about Brees and I was wrong about the Saints.

When you so boldly stated your FACT that the Saints would "get spanked with ease", Brees had already been signed. Good grief man, give it up.

Yes we have established this 100 times. Its like am speaking with a 5th grader. When teh saints were labeled as a FLUKE a few weeks back is a pretty good indicator, NO ONE thought they would be where they are. Kudos to them for proving everyone wrong, and taking hold of the south. I am not sure there is anythign else you can repost that I might of said 6 months ago to try and make no sense. So go on... I can do a search and see if there is somethign I cant post about myself that you can use the following animations for: and your obvious favorite:

 

[Doug B]

So with your "Bush helps them win games theory", I don't buy it fully. It is an easy out for a player who has underperformed, PERIOD. Brees is the main reason they are winning so many games. I will also PROPS the offensive line, which was rated low in the off-season is playing at a very high level, considering Walters got sacked more in ONE game then Brees has ALL year. Lastly, the coaching staff... I am the most impressed with. I guess you start to realize how bad Brooks and Haslett were. Bring in a good caoch and you have yourself a great team.

Yes, Bush has underperformed as a rusher. Point taken. But so what? As long as guys like Monte Kiffin coach their teams to treat Bush like he's Marshall Faulk, then Bush has plenty of value, regardless of his YPC. Brees' season is nowhere near as successful without Bush sucking defenders away from other guys.

 

[Doug B]

Yes we have established this 100 times. Its like am speaking with a 5th grader. When teh saints were labeled as a FLUKE a few weeks back is a pretty good indicator, NO ONE thought they would be where they are.

Not so -- a very astute FBG named Sammy Jankis saw the signs during the summer and predicted the Saints would kick butt out of the gate.You don't get a pass on a bad prediction just because a lot of people agreed at the time. That just means more crow has to get served out.

I love the "no one could have predicted ..." defense. If no one could have predicted, then everyone should have declined to make a prediction on the record.

 

[Gargoylez]

Yes we have established this 100 times. Its like am speaking with a 5th grader. When teh saints were labeled as a FLUKE a few weeks back is a pretty good indicator, NO ONE thought they would be where they are.

Not so -- a very astute FBG named Sammy Jankis saw the signs during the summer and predicted the Saints would kick butt out of the gate.You don't get a pass on a bad prediction just because a lot of people agreed at the time. That just means more crow has to get served out.

I love the "no one could have predicted ..." defense. If no one could have predicted, then everyone should have declined to make a prediction on the record.

Its not a defense, it is the truth. Besides a person taking a flyer, sorry didn't mean to include EVERYONE it was just a figure of speech.I am eating crow, have been since week 6. My friend owns Brees in my fantasy football league and I told him you will be lucky to get 20 TD's out of him this year....

Not a BOLD prediction then... but looks silly now. Hindset is 20/20 and I need a pair of glasses for my a**.

I am done talking about Bush, because the people who DONT love the saints understand the concept and the people who DO love the saints refuse too.

Teams game plan for players all the time, and if the player is GOOD then they will succeed no matter... Bush hasn't done that yet. And I EMPHASIZE the word YET... because god forbid, Sidewinder will have more sig informationa nd carry it around like a pet rock.

I have to remember NOT to have the stones to make a prediction, I should stay wishy washy like the rest of you... and throw it in the faces of everyone who does. Sidewinder can give me some tips I am sure.

 

[Sidewinder]

... And I EMPHASIZE the word YET... because god forbid, Sidewinder will have more sig informationa nd carry it around like a pet rock. I have to remember NOT to have the stones to make a prediction, I should stay wishy washy like the rest of you... and throw it in the faces of everyone who does. ...

As far as the sig goes, the thing is, you weren't predicting anything per se. In the original thread, you essentially said the Saints were stupid for drafting Bush -- and then started with the insults and negative Saints talk when others didn't agree with you. So you can couch it as "having the stones to make a prediction", but in reality you simply were throwing a tantrum and pissing at someone who happened to disagree with you. But nice try on revisionist history.

 

[Slum Lord]

Brees' season is nowhere near as successful without Bush sucking defenders away from other guys.

Can i get a hit of whatever your smoking? Yeah Brees isnt hitting Colston for bombs if they dont have Reggie. Uh huh.

 

[Gargoylez]

... And I EMPHASIZE the word YET... because god forbid, Sidewinder will have more sig informationa nd carry it around like a pet rock.

I have to remember NOT to have the stones to make a prediction, I should stay wishy washy like the rest of you... and throw it in the faces of everyone who does. ...

As far as the sig goes, the thing is, you weren't predicting anything per se. In the original thread, you essentially said the Saints were stupid for drafting Bush -- and then started with the insults and negative Saints talk when others didn't agree with you. So you can couch it as "having the stones to make a prediction", but in reality you simply were throwing a tantrum and pissing at someone who happened to disagree with you. But nice try on revisionist history.

I STILL think it was a mistake to draft Bush, I have never said ANY different. But he was a ONCE in a lifetime type back, and everyone assumed he was goig to tear it up. So before you continue to put words in my mouth I ask to revisit history yourself and not ASSume. Whether you attach to some other thing I have done a half year ago, the bottom line is, That was a prediction. But I am sure youll find something to babble on about and make it not what it really is. Master of spin..........At this point now, the Bush pick doesnt look all that great. 2 years from now it might be a different story. but away from the defense followsBush everywhere BS Homers have been feeding us, I don't see any drop off without Bush. McCalister would still be the feature back and Bush would be the WR... ooops I mean RB. Lets call an orange an orange.

Money well spent Defense wins championships... not a dancing pretty boy. ASk Indianapolis where their championship is...

 

[thayman]

Brees' season is nowhere near as successful without Bush sucking defenders away from other guys.

Can i get a hit of whatever your smoking? Yeah Brees isnt hitting Colston for bombs if they dont have Reggie. Uh huh.

It is a fair point. If you are pulling a corner or a safety up to cover Bush because your LBs can't cover him someone is going to get open downfield.

 

[thayman]

... And I EMPHASIZE the word YET... because god forbid, Sidewinder will have more sig informationa nd carry it around like a pet rock.

I have to remember NOT to have the stones to make a prediction, I should stay wishy washy like the rest of you... and throw it in the faces of everyone who does. ...

As far as the sig goes, the thing is, you weren't predicting anything per se. In the original thread, you essentially said the Saints were stupid for drafting Bush -- and then started with the insults and negative Saints talk when others didn't agree with you. So you can couch it as "having the stones to make a prediction", but in reality you simply were throwing a tantrum and pissing at someone who happened to disagree with you. But nice try on revisionist history.

I STILL think it was a mistake to draft Bush, I have never said ANY different. But he was a ONCE in a lifetime type back, and everyone assumed he was goig to tear it up. So before you continue to put words in my mouth I ask to revisit history yourself and not ASSume. Whether you attach to some other thing I have done a half year ago, the bottom line is, That was a prediction. But I am sure youll find something to babble on about and make it not what it really is. Master of spin..........At this point now, the Bush pick doesnt look all that great. 2 years from now it might be a different story. but away from the defense followsBush everywhere BS Homers have been feeding us, I don't see any drop off without Bush. McCalister would still be the feature back and Bush would be the WR... ooops I mean RB. Lets call an orange an orange.

Money well spent Defense wins championships... not a dancing pretty boy. ASk Indianapolis where their championship is...

The Saints sold out their stadium in record time for a record number of games this year. Add in jersey sales etc, etc.... I would say from a business perspective that drafting Bush was money VERY well spent.

 

[Doug B]

Brees' season is nowhere near as successful without Bush sucking defenders away from other guys.

Can i get a hit of whatever your smoking?

Sorry, man ... didn't mean to bogart the reality.

 

[Doug B]

Teams game plan for players all the time, and if the player is GOOD then they will succeed no matter... Bush hasn't done that yet.

No one is saying any different. What we're saying is that in the here and now ... it doesn't matter that Bush's rushing stats are low. The other pieces of the puzzle are working. Bush has surprised in blitz pickup, and he's done a nice job from Day One in the passing game. Some of you are picking up on yards-per-carry and making that some paramount stat. But for Bush, in this offense, with the way opponents are playing him, having backfield help in Deuce ... it's not all that relevant. It just isn't in this case ... the rules are different here.Now, change some of the parameters -- Deuce gets hurt, opposing defenses sell out to shut down the WRs and dare the Saints to beat them on the ground with Bush, etc. Then it could be a problem is Bush doesn't improve in the rushing game.

 

[larz]

'But he was a ONCE in a lifetime type back, and everyone assumed he was goig to tear it up. '

A once in a lifetime back? Seriously? I would say a no-brainer #1 pick at the time, but there is a ton of RB talent entering the league more often than once in a lifetime.

 

[Sidewinder]

... but away from the defense follows Bush everywhere BS Homers have been feeding us, I don't see any drop off without Bush. ...

You call it BS, I call it reality. Not sure what you think the motivation would be to make stuff up. Considering I've seen every play this year -- been at the 4 home games plus the road game at Tampa (then re-watched the DVR of each later) and seen the other 3 road games on the tube -- I'm pretty confident in what I'm talking about, especially when several of the more respected analysts have talked about it in great detail. But hey, no skin off my behind, think what you want to think. Doug and I (among others) have offered some reasonable responses to the OP with supporting comments, and I've seen nothing from you to materially show where we are in error. nm.

 

[Pied Piper]

Brees' season is nowhere near as successful without Bush sucking defenders away from other guys.

Can i get a hit of whatever your smoking? Yeah Brees isnt hitting Colston for bombs if they dont have Reggie. Uh huh.

heh yeah, crown Reggie Bush King of the suck move.

 

[matuski]

Bush is sucking, but at least you can still see the potential.

You can't say that for other 1st round picks.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Gargoylez, I don't mean to be rude but I don't know of any other way to put this other than you either A) have watched hardly any Saints football this year or B) completely lack in any understanding of the game of football.

I'm guessing it's more A than B, but sitting here and saying that teams are not focusing on Bush and that other players have opened things up for HIM (and not the other way around based on how the defenses have been approaching the Saints) is just not even an arguable point right now.

It's like me walking out on the field for the coin toss, watching them do it, and then trying to argue that they played rock-paper-scissors to decide who got the ball first. It's that bad.

Has Bush done anything to deserve all that added attention that's opening up other things? No. But that doesn't change the fact that he is getting that added attention that is clearly opening those things up. To even think about arguing otherwise is either lying or lunacy. That's not to say that Bush is great, good, or even better than awful, but the teams playing defense think he is and thusfar that's all that's mattered when they made their defensive gameplan.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Brees' season is nowhere near as successful without Bush sucking defenders away from other guys.

Can i get a hit of whatever your smoking? Yeah Brees isnt hitting Colston for bombs if they dont have Reggie. Uh huh.

Brees has been better than many expected, but the point he was making is that a fake pitch to Bush might suck up a safety that one step that it takes to complete a pass where the safety is a step late at breaking up the play. That is pretty obvious. Now to say that Brees would NEVER hit Colston is silly, but to say that Bush hasn't impacted the way defenses have attempted to stop the Saints offense is equally silly. The question really should be about what we expect moving forward? Will teams just bring in a nickel back when Bush is in because they are not concerned about the run between the tackles? This game is about adjustments and it will be interesting to see what happens next on both sides of the ball.

 

[Dancing Bear]

Liquid Tension,

I think you are making a very good point here, but your point is missing a small nuance.

The Bush Kool-Aid folks are going to tell you that no other New Orleans RB or for that matter no other NFL RB could have had the same impact.

No one really knows, but it is just as reasonable to assume that New Orleans could have had the same success with Deuce or Bush or Stecker, or somebody else. Just because its Reggie on that play to Henderson or Colston, doesn't mean it could not have been someone else. And yet the Bush Kool-Aid folks contend that its only because of Bush that the play succeeded.

 

[freelander]

Liquid Tension,I think you are making a very good point here, but your point is missing a small nuance.The Bush Kool-Aid folks are going to tell you that no other New Orleans RB or for that matter no other NFL RB could have had the same impact.No one really knows, but it is just as reasonable to assume that New Orleans could have had the same success with Deuce or Bush or Stecker, or somebody else. Just because its Reggie on that play to Henderson or Colston, doesn't mean it could not have been someone else. And yet the Bush Kool-Aid folks contend that its only because of Bush that the play succeeded.

It may be less pronounced now than earlier in the season, and yes, it may only have been highlighted because its Reggie Bush, but there was pretty clear evidence on game footage of teams overplaying him.

 

[Gargoylez]

Gargoylez, I don't mean to be rude but I don't know of any other way to put this other than you either A) have watched hardly any Saints football this year or B) completely lack in any understanding of the game of football.I'm guessing it's more A than B, but sitting here and saying that teams are not focusing on Bush and that other players have opened things up for HIM (and not the other way around based on how the defenses have been approaching the Saints) is just not even an arguable point right now.It's like me walking out on the field for the coin toss, watching them do it, and then trying to argue that they played rock-paper-scissors to decide who got the ball first. It's that bad.Has Bush done anything to deserve all that added attention that's opening up other things? No. But that doesn't change the fact that he is getting that added attention that is clearly opening those things up. To even think about arguing otherwise is either lying or lunacy. That's not to say that Bush is great, good, or even better than awful, but the teams playing defense think he is and thusfar that's all that's mattered when they made their defensive gameplan.

I dont know if we should have a comprehension class 101 or what.My DIS with bush has LITTLE to do with the multi-million decoy. It has to do with his performance when he has touched the ball. Everyone immediately jumps on the "saints are winning" and the "decoy" wagon, with little or no reading of the thread. I will not deny the fact he is a decoy and it has helped the team, I have never said otherwise. But his actual performance when given the chance has little to be desired. I am trying not to be a Bush hater. I would love to see sick highlights of ANY player and it is what I expected from Bush. Except for a few highlights against my Bucs... there hasn't really been any.If you are banking your future and a good amount of payroll on someone, would YOU want him to play better then he has?

 

[tick dog]

i don't feel like reading through all the pissing match posts, so sorry if someone else has asked this, but my biggger question is: why does payton insist on running bush between the tackles/up the middle so much? he clearly can't cut it like that yet, gets stuffed nearly every time, and yet he bogarts at least 8 or 9 "deuce"-type carries per game.

admittedly i'm a mcallister owner so it frustrates me, but just as an objective foootball-watcher, i can't help wonder why they repeatedly make the same bad play call over and over, and refuse to learn from its constant failiure? reggie is at his best split out wide, catching passes out of backfield...but as a single back rushing through the line on 1st/2nd down he hasn't proven he is even close to ready.

 

[packersfan]

i don't feel like reading through all the pissing match posts, so sorry if someone else has asked this, but my biggger question is: why does payton insist on running bush between the tackles/up the middle so much? he clearly can't cut it like that yet, gets stuffed nearly every time, and yet he bogarts at least 8 or 9 "deuce"-type carries per game. admittedly i'm a mcallister owner so it frustrates me, but just as an objective foootball-watcher, i can't help wonder why they repeatedly make the same bad play call over and over, and refuse to learn from its constant failiure? reggie is at his best split out wide, catching passes out of backfield...but as a single back rushing through the line on 1st/2nd down he hasn't proven he is even close to ready.

There was a stat posted last week which showed Bush's YPC was higher on his runs between the tackles than outside. Now that was before the Bucs' game but it was a rather interesting stat in my opinion.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Liquid Tension,I think you are making a very good point here, but your point is missing a small nuance.The Bush Kool-Aid folks are going to tell you that no other New Orleans RB or for that matter no other NFL RB could have had the same impact.No one really knows, but it is just as reasonable to assume that New Orleans could have had the same success with Deuce or Bush or Stecker, or somebody else. Just because its Reggie on that play to Henderson or Colston, doesn't mean it could not have been someone else. And yet the Bush Kool-Aid folks contend that its only because of Bush that the play succeeded.

I would say that play action only works if there is a perceived threat to run. If Aaron Stecker is in there that perception is diminished greatly. Deuce is still a force, but he doesn't have the speed of Bush

 

[Delusions Of Adequacy]

He's doing everything everyone thought he would do, minus the 60 yard td scampers we assumed he'd sprinkle throughout the season.

 

[Liquid Tension]

i don't feel like reading through all the pissing match posts, so sorry if someone else has asked this, but my biggger question is: why does payton insist on running bush between the tackles/up the middle so much? he clearly can't cut it like that yet, gets stuffed nearly every time, and yet he bogarts at least 8 or 9 "deuce"-type carries per game. admittedly i'm a mcallister owner so it frustrates me, but just as an objective foootball-watcher, i can't help wonder why they repeatedly make the same bad play call over and over, and refuse to learn from its constant failiure? reggie is at his best split out wide, catching passes out of backfield...but as a single back rushing through the line on 1st/2nd down he hasn't proven he is even close to ready.

With the exception of last game, I think Bush should be trying to bust up the middle more. To me I see Bush jumping outside on alomst every run. If Deuce always runs up the middle and Bush always runs outsides defenses will stuff them both

 

[L5UT1ger]

He's doing everything everyone thought he would do, minus the 60 yard td scampers we assumed he'd sprinkle throughout the season.

I think he meant that we all expected bush to have a good bit of negative carries, but would also hit a homerun every now and again to bring that ypc stat up to a respectable level.

 

[BigRed]

It must be a conspiracy, because Reggie Bush is the 2nd coming of Gayle Sayers, remember?

Finally someone gets it Where have all the Bush groupies gone anyway?Actually I thought he'd have a mix of flashy moments (a few long runs etc) but be very inconsistent and not crack 1000 yds. Didn't expect this much disappointment though.

 

[Gargoylez]

I will retract a bit here. Own up to my posts.

I watched the PIT game (as painful as it was, can't stand either team) Bush looked different. He didn't dance, and he had a couple good runs, where he just burst instead of doing his dance routine.

I wonder if someone took him aside and said, "listen, Dance time is over, you need to run."

Glad to see he was doing something different and it worked.

Saints should of won that game too, and as much as I DISLIKE Brees... he looks REAL good and Colsten is a phenom.

 

[GRIDIRON ASSASSIN]

As pointed out, it's simple.

He's dancing and not hittin' the hole.

It's OK to juke and dance in the open field, but not behind the line of scrimmage.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I could not help but notice that ESPN has resorted to showing college highlights of Bush since he has so few pro highlights.

 

[guderian]

Bush had his best game rushing since early in the season. It looks like he is starting to 'get it' and is willing to run it inside and take the 3-5 yards rather than trying to bounce it outside and beat everyone to the edge. He showed some good moves between the tackles and even had that squirm that allowed him to gain the extra yard when being tackled.

 

[Doug B]

Bush had his best game rushing since early in the season. It looks like he is starting to 'get it' and is willing to run it inside and take the 3-5 yards rather than trying to bounce it outside and beat everyone to the edge. He showed some good moves between the tackles and even had that squirm that allowed him to gain the extra yard when being tackled.

Bush can bring it all together with time, I feel. It's exceptional for an eventually-successful NFL RB to need time to develop, but Bush will prove to be one of those exceptions (see below). Once he establishes some good NFL tailback habits, the next piece of the puzzle will be to work on his overall strength ... put on maybe 10 pounds or so of muscle. Bush will need to become harder to take head-on ... he'll need to be much tougher to bring down.It's strange to think that Bush's individual talent (i.e. not "readymade pro tailback" talent, but "freakish college scatback" talent) and his situation at USC really didn't cut him out to be a true NFL tailback. He was able to get away with doing so many things that are totally wrong at the pro level. Kudos to anyone who saw all that so clearly a year ago ... you're smarter than loads of "draft experts".

 

[icehouse]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jones/061113

By Bomani Jones

Special to Page 2

Now that Reggie Bush has given a game away, will people admit that maybe he wasn't such a slam dunk top pick?

With the score tied at 24 with 7:03 left in the 3rd quarter at Heinz Field, Bush put the ball on the ground. The Steelers recovered and immediately scored the first of three unanswered touchdowns that clearly swung the game in their favor.

Sean Payton greeted Bush with a potty-mouth tirade as the rookie came to the sideline. It seemed a bit much considering that even Jim Brown might not have held on to the ball if a safety got a hat on it as he fell forward. But it wasn't too much, if in a moment of frustration, Payton was forced to confront a reality nine games in the making -- right now, Reggie Bush just isn't that good.

And for that reason, the majority of the football universe owes Mario Williams a sincere apology.

You may remember Williams from one of many choice jokes from a fellow fan or your favorite sportswriter (or this sportswriter). He's also known as the top pick of the 2006 draft. But he's best known as the man the foolish Texans chose instead of taking Bush.

Now, we should call him a promising pass-rusher. He's also the only defensive lineman in Houston who shouldn't wear a mask on payday.

And, this season, Williams has been a better player than Bush.

That doesn't necessarily mean he will have a better career than Bush, but it does indicate that the Texans weren't hittin' the hooch when they passed on the Heisman Trophy winner.

A lot of people owe Williams some sort of mea culpa. To turn him into Sam Bowie before he played an NFL down was inhumane. And making Bush into Michael Jordan in April has proven to be a bit hasty.

Mario Williams

Bob Levey/WireImage.com

Houston's Mario Williams is off to a solid start with 4.5 sacks in his first nine games.

Williams hasn't set the world on fire, but he's been pretty good. And it's not like he's getting a lot of help. He's recorded 4.5 sacks in 9 games, while the rest of the team's defensive linemen have 5.5 sacks combined. And while Williams has had moments when he's looked utterly clueless, he has managed to command double teams and show that he has the potential to convert his incredible measurables into dominance as a pass-rusher.

Most impressive is that he's done all this while most observers anxiously expected failure, like he's that K-Fed character or something. Think about that -- Williams got the same treatment as a backup dancer suffering from the delusion that he can rap.

That's dirty pool.

The way Williams' selection was treated after it was announced that he would be the top pick was unfair. It's understandable that most people would have taken Bush with the top pick. After all, most people had heard of Bush but couldn't pick Williams out of a lineup.

But it wasn't lunacy that Houston went with Williams instead of Bush. It was debatable whether Bush could handle the rigors of being a feature back in the NFL, a debate that has continued since Bush has been dinged up all season. And the last do-it-all dynamo to approach a draft with this much hype was Rocket Ismail, who would have gotten a GM fired had he not gone to Canada out of Notre Dame.

It's also not like Williams was some unheard-of prospect. Most mock drafts had him going high, and many of those had him going to New Orleans after the Saints signed Drew Brees.

Oh yeah, and he's a physical specimen on par with Julius Peppers. That's not to say he's as good as Peppers, a sentiment the town of Chapel Hill, where Peppers attended college, goes out of its way to share. But neither is Michael Strahan or anyone else. Williams is an inch taller than Pep, 10 pounds heavier and ran almost the same 40 time at the combine as Peppers did in 2002. That means that Williams entered the NFL as one of the biggest defensive ends and possibly the fastest. That's a promising combination to have at one of the league's most essential and glamorous positions.

There were two big questions about Williams: 1) Could he refine his technique in a league where athleticism alone isn't enough? And, 2) Would he take games off like he did at N.C. State, where he rarely shined against top competition?

For some reason, we never asked those questions about Reggie Bush.

And we should have.

Bush has shown little of the sizzle that made him the most dynamic, electrifying college player since Barry Sanders. His speed hasn't been enough to free him -- there are a lot more fast guys in the pros than in college -- and he hasn't shown much of a talent for reading blocks.

He's averaging less than three yards a carry. He's sixth in the league with 53 receptions, but at less than seven yards per catch. Bush hasn't recorded a single run over 20 yards, and his longest reception went for 32. Aside from his game-winning touchdown against the Eagles, his punt returning, the area in which it seemed most likely he'd thrive early on, has been steady but not spectacular.

Yeah, he's dinged up. But he ain't broken down.

After months of comparing Bush to Gale Sayers, he's looked a lot more like Larry Centers or Keith Byars. Maybe those two should have gotten deals to shill sandwiches.

Under most circumstances, Bush's disappointing play would be big news. Payton's harsh words would have been the culmination of a national discussion about how this bonus baby needs to step up his game. It would be debated whether a player with his build -- thin at the joints, muscular but certainly not beefy -- could truly succeed as an NFL feature back.

Not this year, baby. Not in New Orleans.

America figured out the easiest way to continue to show support for the rebuilding of New Orleans would be to root for the Saints. Instead of questioning why it's taking so long to get so many New Orleanians back into their homes or watching all four hours of Spike Lee's "When The Levees Broke: Requiem," the country has adopted the Saints as its own team, a selfless act considering how much joy those old jokes about the "Aints" brought the nation.

The face of America's New Team was Bush, fresh off a collegiate career that made him the rare college player to enter the NFL as a megawatt star. And unlike the last time the Saints drafted such a player -- 1999, when they drafted the only resident of Planet Ricky -- Bush didn't appear to be out of his gourd. He arrived saying all the right things, including his promises to help rebuild the city. It was almost unanimously believed when Bush arrived at training camp that he was crucial to the Saints' hopes of having a successful season and the long-term viability of a team that desperately needed to put people in the seats.

Then the season started, and the Saints looked pretty good. After their momentous win over Atlanta in the first game at the renovated Superdome, they were a national cause celebre and Bush remained the Saints' PR face.

No doubt, Bush has sold tickets. But how much has he really contributed on the field?

He won the game against Philly, but that got washed away by his fumble against the Steelers. He's gone over 100 yards from scrimmage as many times, once, as he's been held to negative rushing yards. He's had as many rushing touchdowns as he's thrown interceptions. He hasn't even had a good game. Not all of them were bad, but none of them were good.

Reggie Bush

Kevin C. Cox/WireImage.com

Reggie Bush might be wishing Fresno State was on the Saints' schedule this season.

Bush's apologists argue that his ability to occupy a linebacker, both when he's in the backfield and split out wide, is part of what's made the Saints' offense go. That's a tough sell. It's actually confusing that anyone would spy on a guy averaging 2.8 yards per carry and 6.6 yards per catch.

The Saints' offense has improved dramatically from last season. That should be expected from a team that replaced Aaron Brooks at quarterback with Brees. Come to think of it, you can't even say that Brees "replaced" Brooks. That's like "replacing" a pair of flip flops with a Jaguar.

That's meant a lot more to the Saints than what any linebacker does.

New Orleans also struck the lotto by drafting Marques Colston in the seventh round, who both complemented Joe Horn and compensated for the vet's absence after he got hurt. He's big, strong, fast enough and has good hands. He's got a possession receiver's body and the ability to make big plays. He's looked like a faster Keyshawn Johnson. That would hold with or without Reggie Bush.

Oh, and the Saints had a pretty good tailback before Bush got there. That would be Deuce McAllister, who only played in five games last season. Well, he's back now and playing pretty well. Maybe that's got to do with those linebackers, but Deuce has been a helluva back for a while.

You can't credit those things to Reggie Bush. It's still exciting whenever he touches the ball, but excitement and a token won't get you on the subway when it comes to playing football. The game's still about production, and he's coming up short.

Way short. Instead of being a catalyst of change, Bush has been along for the ride.

So should the Texans have taken Bush? Consider what my Houston correspondent, my best friend and fellow Houston native George Sands, says about whether people there still wish the Texans had taken Bush.

"People here have come to realize he wouldn't have been able to do anything behind that line, anyway."

It'll probably be a while before anyone can definitively say whether Bush or Williams had the better career. It's also likely that Bush will improve. Honestly, it's hard to imagine him being less dynamic.

The Texans have time to be proven wrong, but they don't look moronic for taking Williams. Pronouncements of the Texans' stupidity resulted in a young man being raked over the coals because he responded to $26.5 million guaranteed with a signature. He's been evaluated on the context of who he isn't without much thought to what he could bring to the table.

And just what has Mario Williams brought for us to eat? A heapin' helpin' of crow.

Bon appetit.

 

[packersfan]

The fumble was a killer but I thought this was the best Bush has looked in weeks. He ran the ball with considerably more confidence than he has in a long time and was definitely more productive. There have been about 5-6 games where he could've been ripped. I don't know if I would've picked this game.

 

[Gadfly]

It's obvious this Bomani Jones -- who isn't a real journalist writing for ESPN Page 2 -- was given this assignment last week and, since Bush had his best game of the season, had to completely ignore that and focus on the fumble in order to make the story fit the assignment.

 

[Doug B]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jones/061113

By Bomani Jones

Special to Page 2

... Aside from his game-winning touchdown against the Eagles ... He won the game against Philly ...

Automatically discredited -- the guy does not follow the Saints at all and did not do his homework ... other than look at a week-old stats sheet. Everything Jones writes can be ignored.

Bush's apologists argue that his ability to occupy a linebacker, both when he's in the backfield and split out wide, is part of what's made the Saints' offense go. That's a tough sell. It's actually confusing that anyone would spy on a guy averaging 2.8 yards per carry and 6.6 yards per catch.

Watch the games, Bomani. There's nothing to sell ... teams ARE, in fact, overplaying Bush (if not so often spying him anymore). Yes, it IS confusing to us Saints fans just why opposing defenses are still overplaying him ... but indeed they are. Perhaps they are concerned about his production if they DON'T overplay him, hmmm?

 

[Sidewinder]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jones/061113

By Bomani Jones

Special to Page 2

... Aside from his game-winning touchdown against the Eagles ... He won the game against Philly ...

Automatically discredited -- the guy does not follow the Saints at all and did not do his homework ... other than look at a week-old stats sheet. Everything Jones writes can be ignored.

...

Add this to the list, I mean, why let facts get in the way? Sloppy journalism, plain and simple.

...With the score tied at 24 with 7:03 left in the 3rd quarter at Heinz Field, Bush put the ball on the ground. The Steelers recovered and immediately scored the first of three unanswered touchdowns that clearly swung the game in their favor...

 

[Doug B]

Add this to the list, I mean, why let facts get in the way? Sloppy journalism, plain and simple.

Also ... I think he overemphasizes the influence of that fumble on the game's outcome. It was midway through the third quarter. The defense breaking outside contain and letting Parker loose for two 70+ yard runs was much, much more of a factor. If you gotta nail it all on one offensive breakdown, Copper's last drop in the fourth quarter was bigger, IMHO.