Remember when, around a year ago, a lot of people complained that this forum skewed left? (2 Viewers)

[Ramblin Wreck]

Not really. Evolution deniers, climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers, 9-11 truthers, flat-Earthers,  2020 election deniers- there’s lots of deniers out there before we get to the Holocaust. 
All of these folks are wrong. None of them are Nazis. 

LOL

 

[jon_mx]

jon, can you say more about your own personal experience with the concept of white privilege?  I'm trying to understand why this gets you so animated, but it's really hard to do that when all of your comments are so generic.   Have you experienced some type of negative spillover of white privilege?   Or can you expand any further on why this topic is so emotional for you?

Sure.  I was raised by a single mom who struggled to keep a job and was devastated by the economic downturn in the late 70's and early 80s'  We were on and off unemployment and even food stamps.  We were forced to  move a lot.  I had a step father for a while who was on the abusive side, but not like beat the crap abusive.  I was even falsely arrested at some point due to mistaken identity.  I had to get a ton of loans to get through college.  I did not have a father who had connections to help me get that good intern job or job out of college.  Nobody bought me a car or gave me anything.  The only non-negative was the town a grew up in was a decent small town.  But still probably in the bottom 10 percentile of income.  Being labeled privilege is a big insult. 

 

[jon_mx]

Not really. Evolution deniers, climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers, 9-11 truthers, flat-Earthers,  2020 election deniers- there’s lots of deniers out there before we get to the Holocaust. 
All of these folks are wrong. None of them are Nazis. 

There is an intentional connotation in those. 

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

There is an intentional connotation in those. 

Him including anti-vaxxer in there just shows he's trolling as usual

 

[Juxtatarot]

Tim’s garbage is what makes it impossible to discuss here. Think like him or he labels you and the discussion goes down the crapper.  

LOL

Him including anti-vaxxer in there just shows he's trolling as usual

 

[BladeRunner]

Not really. Evolution deniers, climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers, 9-11 truthers, flat-Earthers,  2020 election deniers- there’s lots of deniers out there before we get to the Holocaust. 
All of these folks are wrong. None of them are Nazis. 

Yeah, Tim, that's why the user the term "denier" - It's a DIRECT reference to "as bad as a Holocaust denier".  It's done to shut down any questions or opposing views.

There is ZERO doubt or debate on this when used in the contexts you specified.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

People that don't take vaccines aren't wrong.  Tim can't declare they are.  Neither can you.  It's terrible posting

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Sure.  I was raised by a single mom who struggled to keep a job and was devastated by the economic downturn in the late 70's and early 80s'  We were on and off unemployment and even food stamps.  We were forced to  move a lot.  I had a step father for a while who was on the abusive side, but not like beat the crap abusive.  I was even falsely arrested at some point due to mistaken identity.  I had to get a ton of loans to get through college.  I did not have a father who had connections to help me get that good intern job or job out of college.  Nobody bought me a car or gave me anything.  The only non-negative was the town a grew up in was a decent small town.  But still probably in the bottom 10 percentile of income.  Being labeled privilege is a big insult. 

I really appreciate you sharing your experience jon.   Your experience is similar to a large % of my family, including both grandfathers, my father, lots of my aunts/uncles/cousins.   It's really tough for them - or me - to see any "privilege" in their background.  It helps me understand your perspective when you share your experience.  Thank you for being open.

Certainly compared to 80-90% of Americans, my grandfathers and father (and FIL) grew up in very tough situations compared to the average American.  My FIL grew up, as he would call it, dirt poor.  His parents rented apartments and crappy houses their whole lives.  Never had steady work.   His father was severely burned working in a factory and was partially disabled from age 40 onward.  They were in modest debt their whole lives.  My FIL studied hard, went to college, went to law school and built a life.   He had a ton of loans coming out of school.   Two of my closest life-long friends grew up a lot like you.  I got to see it firsthand.   While my family wasn't even remotely living large, by comparison I was fortunate.  Despite being fortunate, I didn't get on a plane until age 19 and only left the state of Wisconsin to cross the border into upper Michigan (5 miles across) periodically and took two trips to Chicago as a school trip.  Literally we didn't leave the state of WI for anything else.   [in contrast to Mrs APK who took annual trips to Jamaica as a kid]

All of these things are a continuum.  And yet it's just so simple and easy to say "white privilege" and just lump everyone together into one bucket, without any nuance or recognition that there are wide ranges of individual situations.   Not all white people had it easier than all black people.  (or insert whatever group you want to)   Why is it wrong to say that?   Why is it wrong to recognize that?  I have liberal friends who just refuse to have that conversation.    My college roommate basically thinks saying those words out loud means you should be canceled.

Anyway.  I'm rambling.  Thank you jon.

 

[The Commish]

I don't fully agree either. At least not in 2021. Circumstances will of course change the equation but still, hard work by one generation should improve the lot for the next. This is the primary driver for the American dream. We should always and continuously look at fundamental disparities and try to address them but nothing will be more effective than individuals making good decisions and then kicking ### when opportunity presents itself. 

This is exactly right, so the question is, what do we do when that's not the case?  When it comes to this topic, there are a CRAPLOAD of people that reverse engineer their way into the conversation.  When they see a group who aren't able to improve things for the next generation and automatically assume it was because they didn't work hard.  After all, THEY were able to do it, so the other guy should be able to do it.  If he didn't it's because he didn't work as hard.  It's a complete logical fallacy I see almost weekly and I've seen it in liberal states and conservative states alike.  

 

[JerryG]

Re: your first paragraph and opinions. I agree with your sentiment when speaking about individuals. But when you expand that to larger groups opinions lead to actions (or inaction).  So yes one individual opinion shouldn’t affect you as the individual when you scale that up that becomes less true. 

In the second half of your post is largely the point I was making pages back.  We’re speaking about white privilege here because that’s what affects people of color in America, but anytime you’re in the majority it comes with advantages. Here in America whites are in the majority.  So yes there are other privileges/advantages in other areas. White privilege in and of itself has nothing to do with economics, It’s merely about the concept of if all things are equal between two people the white person will have and advantage vs the person of color here in America.

The reason I think it’s important that this is an acknowledged, and the whole reason I started talking about this pages ago is because there are people who will not acknowledge it, is that we can’t work on any of the things in your last paragraph without least starting from a place of common understanding. 

Thanks for the response.  I was indeed thinking of the individual more so than the collective.

That being said, regarding your last paragraph, I don’t understand why we need to acknowledge white privilege to work on instituting emphases on education, family units, hard work, etc.

 

[dkp993]

Sure.  I was raised by a single mom who struggled to keep a job and was devastated by the economic downturn in the late 70's and early 80s'  We were on and off unemployment and even food stamps.  We were forced to  move a lot.  I had a step father for a while who was on the abusive side, but not like beat the crap abusive.  I was even falsely arrested at some point due to mistaken identity.  I had to get a ton of loans to get through college.  I did not have a father who had connections to help me get that good intern job or job out of college.  Nobody bought me a car or gave me anything.  The only non-negative was the town a grew up in was a decent small town.  But still probably in the bottom 10 percentile of income.  Being labeled privilege is a big insult. 

Jon our paths are VERY similar. Single mom (18 when she had me), she worked 2/3 jobs at a time and we’re on/off food stamps, moved often (10 schools by the time I was in 10th grade), etc etc.  The only big difference I can see is I was raised in the ghetto in my early years.  Was the only white kid around.  This probably is what shapes my opinions on this topic

 

[jon_mx]

Jon our paths are VERY similar. Single mom (18 when she had me), she worked 2/3 jobs at a time and we’re on/off food stamps, moved often (10 schools by the time I was in 10th grade), etc etc.  The only big difference I can see is I was raised in the ghetto in my early years.  Was the only white kid around.  This probably is what shapes my opinions on this topic

Even people that have similar experiences can end up with different worldviews.  All people are different and all have the limitations that go with being human.  

 

[dkp993]

Even people that have similar experiences can end up with different worldviews.  All people are different and all have the limitations that go with being human.  

Agreed. 

 

[djmich]

Interesting to hear some of people’s stories growing up.  I didn’t have to worry about where my next meal was coming from but my family had to deal with adversity in my youth also.   Very easy to look at others and be jealous.  It’s a game you can’t win.  I know I have been blessed to live here in the US, in this time.  We’re all blessed whether we know it or not

 

[timschochet]

Interesting to hear some of people’s stories growing up.  I didn’t have to worry about where my next meal was coming from but my family had to deal with adversity in my youth also.   Very easy to look at others and be jealous.  It’s a game you can’t win.  I know I have been blessed to live here in the US, in this time.  We’re all blessed whether we know it or not

I appreciate hearing stories from everyone but so much of the time it comes down to the same basic argument: “I’m white and I had it tough and worked hard; nobody gave me anything. Therefore, white privilege doesn’t exist.” Its an emotionally satisfying argument but in terms of actual evidence it’s not real compelling IMO. 

 

[timschochet]

As an aside, I was not trolling when I added anti-vaxxing as a form of science denial. 

 

[djmich]

I appreciate hearing stories from everyone but so much of the time it comes down to the same basic argument: “I’m white and I had it tough and worked hard; nobody gave me anything. Therefore, white privilege doesn’t exist.” Its an emotionally satisfying argument but in terms of actual evidence it’s not real compelling IMO. 

I think people are sharing their stories less to declare white privilege doesn't exist, but to through their experiences illustrate that there is a spectrum of privilege.  In a vacuum being white is more advantageous than being black.  Life is not a vacuum...unless you are arguing politics.

And, we're all more privledged than about 7 billion other people on the planet.  I know my struggles don't count in the eyes of racial politics, but fortunately for me they informed my worldview enough to know how blessed I am.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

I appreciate hearing stories from everyone but so much of the time it comes down to the same basic argument: “I’m white and I had it tough and worked hard; nobody gave me anything. Therefore, white privilege doesn’t exist.” Its an emotionally satisfying argument but in terms of actual evidence it’s not real compelling IMO. 

Least shocking post ever imo

 

[timschochet]

I think people are sharing their stories less to declare white privilege doesn't exist, but to through their experiences illustrate that there is a spectrum of privilege.  In a vacuum being white is more advantageous than being black.  Life is not a vacuum...unless you are arguing politics.

And, we're all more privledged than about 7 billion other people on the planet.  I know my struggles don't count in the eyes of racial politics, but fortunately for me they informed my worldview enough to know how blessed I am.

Of course. Most Black Americans are far more privileged here than they would be in almost any country in Africa, for example. But that doesn’t change the unfairness here. 

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I appreciate hearing stories from everyone but so much of the time it comes down to the same basic argument: “I’m white and I had it tough and worked hard; nobody gave me anything. Therefore, white privilege doesn’t exist.” Its an emotionally satisfying argument but in terms of actual evidence it’s not real compelling IMO. 

Only people of color can work hard and have it tough?

 

[djmich]

Of course. Most Black Americans are far more privileged here than they would be in almost any country in Africa, for example. But that doesn’t change the unfairness here. 

Of course not.  Are their unfairnesses that you would attribute as white privilege that are evidenced amongst whites as well?

 

[timschochet]

Of course not.  Are their unfairnesses that you would attribute as white privilege that are evidenced amongst whites as well?

There are unfairnesses for certain whites. I don’t think I would attribute them as white privilege. There are class privileges as well, obviously. 

 

[quick-hands]

I appreciate hearing stories from everyone but so much of the time it comes down to the same basic argument: “I’m white and I had it tough and worked hard; nobody gave me anything. Therefore, white privilege doesn’t exist.” Its an emotionally satisfying argument but in terms of actual evidence it’s not real compelling IMO. 

Tim!!! Sometimes.....

 

[Alex P Keaton]

There are unfairnesses for certain whites. I don’t think I would attribute them as white privilege. There are class privileges as well, obviously. 

At a minimum it is nice to see this acknowledged.   

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I appreciate hearing stories from everyone but so much of the time it comes down to the same basic argument: “I’m white and I had it tough and worked hard; nobody gave me anything. Therefore, white privilege doesn’t exist.” Its an emotionally satisfying argument but in terms of actual evidence it’s not real compelling IMO. 

How do you think the people sharing their stories here feel when you minimize their experience so easily?

 

[timschochet]

How do you think the people sharing their stories here feel when you minimize their experience so easily?

The experiences described in this thread are being used to make a specific argument: to minimize white privilege. I’m responding to the validity of that argument, not to the experiences themselves. 
 

And I would reverse this question around on you and ask how YOU think black people  feel when whites respond to accusations of white privilege by offering their own experiences and talking about how tough they had it, completely oblivious to the racism component? 

 

[timschochet]

At a minimum it is nice to see this acknowledged.   

But why is it necessary? It’s like those who insist that whenever people say “black lives matter”, they should add “ALL lives matter.” 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

The experiences described in this thread are being used to make a specific argument: to minimize white privilege. I’m responding to the validity of that argument, not to the experiences themselves. 
 

And I would reverse this question around on you and ask how YOU think black people  feel when whites respond to accusations of white privilege by offering their own experiences and talking about how tough they had it, completely oblivious to the racism component? 

On the first paragraph:

1. That's not what I see happening here.  I see people who are graciously and openly offering their own experience to help explain their perspective.  We should reward that, not punish or condemn it. 

2.  You are massively misinterpreting what people have written.   People are saying "hey, lots of people have a very wide range of experiences, and thus there is a very wide continuum of white privilege."   

3.  I find your unwillingness to listen to others unusual for you and disappointing in this case.  You are dismissing others simply because you don't like what they have to say.

On the second paragraph:

I don't pretend to know how black people feel about it.  I can share that friends of mine have said things like "some white people have it tougher than others; nobody disputes that.  But no white person truly knows what it is like to be black and live the black experience."   That seems fair and reasonable to me.   I'm sure there are other folks who are super offended by the concept.   Just like I'm borderline offended by the suggestion that all white people have similar levels of privilege.   (note:  I have zero complaints about my lot in life.   I've been really lucky in almost all respects)

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

The experiences described in this thread are being used to make a specific argument: to minimize white privilege. I’m responding to the validity of that argument, not to the experiences themselves. 
 

And I would reverse this question around on you and ask how YOU think black people  feel when whites respond to accusations of white privilege by offering their own experiences and talking about how tough they had it, completely oblivious to the racism component? 

Why should I care how black people feel when I describe my personal experience?   Before you start screaming racist for the millionth time, it's the same reason black people shouldn't care  how I feel when they talk about their personal experience.

You still don't know the difference in white privilege and economic privilege. But one of those terms doesn't have quite the same impact to keep voters on your side like the other one.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

But why is it necessary? It’s like those who insist that whenever people say “black lives matter”, they should add “ALL lives matter.” 

It's necessary to acknowledge that class privilege exists because too many people on this board - and IRL - are either oblivious or willingly blind to that reality.

 

[Terminalxylem]

My goal in life isn't to be surrounded by people who agree with me on every topic.  B-O-R-I-N-G.

I agree it’s nice to experience a diversity of opinion, but I don’t think that has to apply to all topics. The vast majority of my friends aren’t conservative, for example, yet we still find plenty of things to discuss. And we don’t always agree either.

TBH, politics and religion are such sensitive/potentially divisive topics, they’re probably better to avoid in most social circles. Especially those where people are passionate about their (varied) opinions. Near anonymous internet forums provide a good outlet for this kind of activity.

 

[supermike80]

I agree taking an extreme position (calling someone racist in this example) rarely leads anywhere good.  But that holds true for the opposite position too. Denying something exists because you as the individual don’t subscribe to it (you in the larger context not you being Mike) is certainly that persons right, but that doesn’t lead to meaningful change either.  

Oh I agree.   There needs to be middle ground.  And I will be honest, if I'm called a racist because I don't immediately subscribe to the white privilege manifesto, I stop listening.  I mean just reading Tim's posts solidifies my point.  Utterly unwilling to listen to anything anyone says that challenges white privilege. It's immediately blown off as non relevant and dismissed immediately.  THAT does help get to a meaningful discussion.   

 

[jon_mx]

Why White Privilege Is Wrong—Part I

Why White Privilege is Wrong—Part 2

The (insulting) hypocrisy with White Privilege

Why White Privilege Is As Racist As It Sounds

The fallacy of white privilege — and how it’s corroding society

'White privilege' is 'most popular racist term today':

Let’s Get Rid of the Term ‘White Privilege’

A Respectful Response To Why White Privilege Is As Racist As It Sounds

White Privilege Is Not an Insult

If you have to write articles about why a term is not a racist Insult, you are probably wrong. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

There is an intentional connotation in those. 

Agreed. In my experience, the "denier" shtick is at best a passive aggressive insult. It's almost always used in a condescending arrogant way that's completely unhelpful for any real discussion. It's the same old smug "I'm right and you're wrong if you don't agree with me" that's so tiring. I hate it because it almost always does just what it did here - hurt real discussion. 

Please let's do less of that. 

 

[Murph]

But why is it necessary? It’s like those who insist that whenever people say “black lives matter”, they should add “ALL lives matter.” 

I guess it's a question of whether your goal is preach to the choir or to have hard conversations that might actually make people who disagree with you understand your perspective a little better.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I guess it's a question of whether your goal is preach to the choir or to have hard conversations that might actually make people who disagree with you understand your perspective a little better.

100%.

In my experience it's completely a question of "what's the goal?"

For some people, the goal is feeling good that they're right and high-fiving the people who think the same. And scoring points against those who don't agree.

For some people, the goal is better understanding and moving the conversation forward and helping the other person understand your perspective and maybe even persuading them to see it more like you. And also being open to changing your opinion and seeing it like them. Basically, empathy.

But the first way is tons easier and more popular. 

 

[Rich Conway]

Agreed. In my experience, the "denier" shtick is at best a passive aggressive insult. It's almost always used in a condescending arrogant way that's completely unhelpful for any real discussion. It's the same old smug "I'm right and you're wrong if you don't agree with me" that's so tiring. I hate it because it almost always does just what it did here - hurt real discussion. 

Please let's do less of that. 

You're missing that on plenty of occasions, there is an objective right and wrong and that it's not simply a matter of opinion and debate.  For example, flat earthers are wrong; period, the end.  Climate-change deniers is a perfectly apt description; not an insult.  "The 2020 Election was Stolen" is an outright denial of fact; there's no debate about it.  There are many other examples.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

You're missing that on plenty of occasions, there is an objective right and wrong and that it's not simply a matter of opinion and debate.  For example, flat earthers are wrong; period, the end.  Climate-change deniers is a perfectly apt description; not an insult.  "The 2020 Election was Stolen" is an outright denial of fact; there's no debate about it.  There are many other examples.

Very fair points.   What % of topics or issues do you think fall into that category?   Do you think that “white privilege is something that most white people have benefited substantially from” falls into the same category as “the earth is flat”?

 

[quick-hands]

You're missing that on plenty of occasions, there is an objective right and wrong and that it's not simply a matter of opinion and debate.  For example, flat earthers are wrong; period, the end.  Climate-change deniers is a perfectly apt description; not an insult.  "The 2020 Election was Stolen" is an outright denial of fact; there's no debate about it.  There are many other examples.

Trump colluded with the Russians.

The boarder is secure. 

 

[Rich Conway]

Very fair points.   What % of topics or issues do you think fall into that category?   Do you think that “white privilege is something that most white people have benefited substantially from” falls into the same category as “the earth is flat”?

Your first question is difficult to answer, as there are virtually an unlimited number of topics available.  Of topics discussed frequently on this forum, I would suggest a good 25% fall into the category I described.  Beyond that, I would suggest another 50% fall into "sides intentionally mischaracterize the other's argument".

Your second question depends entirely on phrasing.  "White privilege doesn't exist" is certainly in the flat-earth realm, as is "all white people have it easier than all non-white people."

 

[jon_mx]

You're missing that on plenty of occasions, there is an objective right and wrong and that it's not simply a matter of opinion and debate.  For example, flat earthers are wrong; period, the end.  Climate-change deniers is a perfectly apt description; not an insult.  "The 2020 Election was Stolen" is an outright denial of fact; there's no debate about it.  There are many other examples.

‘Denier’ is the dirty word of the pandemic and is being wrongly used to shut down the valid concerns of lockdown sceptics

Legitimate views about the effectiveness of lockdown are being silenced with accusations of Covid ‘denial’. The misuse of this powerful and emotive word, often associated with the Holocaust, is morally wrong and needs to stop.

These days, if you want to shut down critical or dissident views, all you need to do is shout ‘denier’. This morally charged scare word is often hurled at anyone who questions the efficacy of the current lockdown or any of the policies associated with it. Consequently, the term denial is used to delegitimise the view of someone who is sceptical about the lockdown.

Who's A Skeptic/Denier/Dissenter/Contrarian?

My struggle to distinguish between a "climate skeptic" and "climate denier" continues. In July, I sought some clarity on these terms, which triggered over 500 comments and little agreement on an acceptable distinction between the two labels. That should come as no surprise. Do you know any climate skeptics who are fine with being called a climate denier? The term has some obvious baggage. Personally, I've resisted using "denier" because of the implied connotations.

“Denier” Charge from Jerry Taylor: How Low Can He Go?

Climate ‘denier’ or ‘denialist’ is a term of political hate speech. Recently, it came from a source that for most of the last quarter century was labeled a ‘denier’ by the pugnacious Left. Jerry Taylor once seethed at that association, yet he now uses the Holocaust reference in the most public of venues. Raw emotionalism is at work, adding questions and doubt to a very strange intellectual conversion of Taylor from energy freedom to energy statism.

Even Joe Romm at Climate Progress, about as mean a climate campaigner as there is (he once called me a ‘sociopath’ for my nonalarmist climate views), revolted against using ‘denier’ in the climate debate. Romm stated:

Since I lost many relatives in the Holocaust, I understand all too well the unique nature of that catastrophe. The Holocaust is not an analogue to global warming, which is an utterly different kind of catastrophe, and, obviously, one whose worst impacts are yet to come….

ABC news asks: Is the phrase "climate change denier" offensive?

Six million Jews didn’t die so Combet could smear a sceptic

It is deliberate and it is grossly offensive – a foul smear acceptable only to the shameless:

 

[supermike80]

‘Denier’ is the dirty word of the pandemic and is being wrongly used to shut down the valid concerns of lockdown sceptics

Legitimate views about the effectiveness of lockdown are being silenced with accusations of Covid ‘denial’. The misuse of this powerful and emotive word, often associated with the Holocaust, is morally wrong and needs to stop.

These days, if you want to shut down critical or dissident views, all you need to do is shout ‘denier’. This morally charged scare word is often hurled at anyone who questions the efficacy of the current lockdown or any of the policies associated with it. Consequently, the term denial is used to delegitimise the view of someone who is sceptical about the lockdown.

Who's A Skeptic/Denier/Dissenter/Contrarian?

My struggle to distinguish between a "climate skeptic" and "climate denier" continues. In July, I sought some clarity on these terms, which triggered over 500 comments and little agreement on an acceptable distinction between the two labels. That should come as no surprise. Do you know any climate skeptics who are fine with being called a climate denier? The term has some obvious baggage. Personally, I've resisted using "denier" because of the implied connotations.

“Denier” Charge from Jerry Taylor: How Low Can He Go?

Climate ‘denier’ or ‘denialist’ is a term of political hate speech. Recently, it came from a source that for most of the last quarter century was labeled a ‘denier’ by the pugnacious Left. Jerry Taylor once seethed at that association, yet he now uses the Holocaust reference in the most public of venues. Raw emotionalism is at work, adding questions and doubt to a very strange intellectual conversion of Taylor from energy freedom to energy statism.

Even Joe Romm at Climate Progress, about as mean a climate campaigner as there is (he once called me a ‘sociopath’ for my nonalarmist climate views), revolted against using ‘denier’ in the climate debate. Romm stated:

Since I lost many relatives in the Holocaust, I understand all too well the unique nature of that catastrophe. The Holocaust is not an analogue to global warming, which is an utterly different kind of catastrophe, and, obviously, one whose worst impacts are yet to come….

ABC news asks: Is the phrase "climate change denier" offensive?

Six million Jews didn’t die so Combet could smear a sceptic

It is deliberate and it is grossly offensive – a foul smear acceptable only to the shameless:

My wife's sister and my wife's brother are 2 people that constantly bring up the covid "denier" thing.   In fact when we had mutual friends who were "deniers" in their eyes and got covid, they almost celebrated it.  You see it on sites like CNN quite frequently.  While they shy away from cheering that a "denier" got it, they are reporting on it with a purpose in mind.

That being said, I have to remind my BIL and my SIL that our mutual friends are not and were not "deniers" they were skeptical about the severity of the disease and hesitant to believe the doom and gloom that was being reported frequently.  Huge difference from being a covid "denier" as they were so quickly labelled and they were correct.  They contracted the fatal disease and had mild symptoms that lasted about 2 weeks. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

My wife's sister and my wife's brother are 2 people that constantly bring up the covid "denier" thing.   In fact when we had mutual friends who were "deniers" in their eyes and got covid, they almost celebrated it.  You see it on sites like CNN quite frequently.  While they shy away from cheering that a "denier" got it, they are reporting on it with a purpose in mind.

That being said, I have to remind my BIL and my SIL that our mutual friends are not and were not "deniers" they were skeptical about the severity of the disease and hesitant to believe the doom and gloom that was being reported frequently.  Huge difference from being a covid "denier" as they were so quickly labelled and they were correct.  They contracted the fatal disease and had mild symptoms that lasted about 2 weeks. 

Yup. It's just human nature to throw people in categories or labels. When the reality is often it's way less black and white. 

Nuance is hard. 

 

[BladeRunner]

On the first paragraph:

1. That's not what I see happening here.  I see people who are graciously and openly offering their own experience to help explain their perspective.  We should reward that, not punish or condemn it. 

2.  You are massively misinterpreting what people have written.   People are saying "hey, lots of people have a very wide range of experiences, and thus there is a very wide continuum of white privilege."   

3.  I find your unwillingness to listen to others unusual for you and disappointing in this case.  You are dismissing others simply because you don't like what they have to say.

On the second paragraph:

I don't pretend to know how black people feel about it.  I can share that friends of mine have said things like "some white people have it tougher than others; nobody disputes that.  But no white person truly knows what it is like to be black and live the black experience."   That seems fair and reasonable to me.   I'm sure there are other folks who are super offended by the concept.   Just like I'm borderline offended by the suggestion that all white people have similar levels of privilege.   (note:  I have zero complaints about my lot in life.   I've been really lucky in almost all respects)

Great Post! 

I'd also like to point out that not only do white people truly NOT know what its like to be black and live the black experience, black people don't know what its like to be white and live the white experience.  I hear this all the time to minimize white people - not saying you're doing that, but others who want white people to shut up - but the reverse also applies to black people.

So can we just tell them to shut up since they have no idea?  No, of course not.  Just like people shouldn't be saying that about white people commenting on the black experience.

 

[BladeRunner]

You're missing that on plenty of occasions, there is an objective right and wrong and that it's not simply a matter of opinion and debate.  For example, flat earthers are wrong; period, the end.  Climate-change deniers is a perfectly apt description; not an insult.  "The 2020 Election was Stolen" is an outright denial of fact; there's no debate about it.  There are many other examples.

For the record, no one is denying climate change exists so that term alone is incorrect and clearly used as a weapon to shut down conversation.  Period.  End of Story.  That is not even debatable.

You just proved our point - being dogmatic in your thinking makes you unable to distinguish between what is being said and what is actually happening, IMO.  You are literally pushing a lefty talking point to shut down conversation - exactly what we're discussing. 

Or, as you specified above, "side intentionally mischaracterize the other's argument".

 

[Joe Bryant]

It's discouraging when I see people accuse others saying 'That person is a ______ denier" when the reality is "That person doesn't completely agree with me on every aspect of the issue". 

We can all do a lot better on that I think. 

Again, Nuance is hard.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

  Do you think that “white privilege is something that most white people have benefited substantially from”

This is a loaded question.  I can simply look at my family and see numerous examples of those that squandered the opportunities that they had simply from being white to gather wealth ("pursue happiness") that was not available to those of color (not just black).   I can also look and see those that lacked the gifts to seize upon the opportunities.   Being white just cleared a few hurdles it didn't give the good life on a silver platter.  It was "luck" in the when "preparedness meets opportunity" sense.  Some were unwilling, some were unable to take advantage.  

While I know some have different takes, I think that the goal should simply to make sure that the opportunities to seize the American Dream are there for everyone.  And that means that society through universal quality education, through access to healthcare, through a safety net that allows people to take chances, etc., etc.  invests in creating the opportunistic environment.  And when we do there will be great returns on those investments.  And none of this needs to have anything to do with skin color unless we continue to try to go cheap.  (We get what we pay for.)

 

[Rich Conway]

It's discouraging when I see people accuse others saying 'That person is a ______ denier" when the reality is "That person doesn't completely agree with me on every aspect of the issue". 

We can all do a lot better on that I think. 

Again, Nuance is hard.

Nuance can be hard.  Definitive statements can also be hard, yet in many cases, entirely appropriate.

Answer these questions:

* Flat-earthers are 100% incorrect.  True or false?
* The 2020 was legitimate.  True or false?
* Some posters on this site deny that the 2020 election was legitimate.  True or false?
* Anthropomorphic climate change is real.  True or false?
* Some posters on this site deny that anthropomorphic climate change is real.  True or false?

Edit to add: pretending that certain "opinions" are valid and indulging them is equally as damaging as ignoring nuance when it exists.

 

[supermike80]

Nuance can be hard.  Definitive statements can also be hard, yet in many cases, entirely appropriate.

Answer these questions:

* Flat-earthers are 100% incorrect.  True or false?
* The 2020 was legitimate.  True or false?
* Some posters on this site deny that the 2020 election was legitimate.  True or false?
* Anthropomorphic climate change is real.  True or false?
* Some posters on this site deny that anthropomorphic climate change is real.  True or false?

It's like banging your head against the wall with you isn't it?

No nuance.    

 

[timschochet]

Yup. It's just human nature to throw people in categories or labels. When the reality is often it's way less black and white. 

Nuance is hard. 

I strongly disagree with you, obviously. I’m a big believer in nuance. 

But there are certain issues in which there is no nuance, and that’s where the denier claim is apt. The election of 2020 for example. If anyone thinks that Trump won, they’re just wrong. There’s no argument, no nuance, no legitimate alternative point of view. They’re a denier. Same with climate change, the theory of evolution, a few other things. 
 

As I expressed to @jon_mx I don’t use this term lightly. I would never use it on any issue like white privilege, for example, despite @supermike80 once again lying about me and claiming I did. Issues of race and culture are usually far too nuanced and complicated to throw such terms around and I don’t. But on clear issues of science and fact, it’s right to use and it should be used.