Remember when, around a year ago, a lot of people complained that this forum skewed left? (4 Viewers)

[Navin Johnson]

Who had suggested this? 

I recall you stating a thread at :e: plotting to get LHUCKS banned. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

This is going to sound childish but can we get rid of the laughing at emoji?  It’s a trolling tool at this point.

Not childish at all. I've talked about that for a while. It was meant to be laughing "with" but it seems most of the time I see I see it, it's trolling laughing "at" someone. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Thanks for the reply Joe.  It definitely seems that we've reached a strange point where a lot of cyber relationships have been strained.   What you wrote resonates with me......but it also doesn't really diagnose what the root cause is/was.   And I find it hard to change things when I don't really understand the root causes.  But maybe that's just me.

In any event, this topic and a few of the comments have convinced me to take a different approach.  Who knows if I'll be able to sustain it, but I'm really going to try to engage differently from here on out.   I probably will slip back into old behavior from time to time, but it's worth trying.

On that note, shout out to @BladeRunner.   While we probably disagree on a number of topics, we had some really good back and forth discussion today.  It was nice to truly try to understand another poster who has a different perspective.  Did we solve any grand world problems today?   No, not really.  But it reminded me that most people on this board are human beings -- yeah, we have strongly held beliefs; yeah, some of those beliefs are all over the place; yeah, sometimes I can't relate to the opposing views other folks hold -- but ultimately, most folks in here just want the best for the world around them.

Anyway.  In a day that wasn't overly positive IRL, the discussions I had with BladeRunner today made my end of day gratitude list.   That might strike people as weird/silly/whatever -- but that's not my concern.   Thanks to BladeRunner for taking the chance to have some good talks today.

I do believe this is the type of thing that gets us back to where we were. Simply because that's more how we used to be it seems where people didn't assume the worst and didn't keep their little notebook of offenses. 

The trouble is it's way less work to fire off the snarky or condescending shot and get the likes from the people who think like you.

What you're talking about requires thought and maturity. Obviously, that's more difficult. Would love to see if we all can do more of that. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

It doesn't add little value. It adds zero value.

Agreed. I was trying to be nice...  

 

[Cowboysfan8]

This is going to sound childish but can we get rid of the laughing at emoji?  It’s a trolling tool at this point.

We are all adults. Do people actually get offended by emojis?

 

[GoBirds]

We are all adults. Do people actually get offended by emojis?

It’s a very sensitive place apparently. 

 

[GoBirds]

So there are 6 conservative voices, and that's now the majority?  

The 95% stronghold slipped to 90% and Tim feels threatened, is that where we are now? Wow. 

 

[Da Guru]

I really don't know, Alex. It just seems we're obsessed where people want to start threads like this one and make sure we "get back" people we think were wrong or somehow hypocritical in some way. It's like we've dropped the real and thoughtful discussion and reverted back to middle school. Maybe it's been this way. But it seems I'm not the only one that thinks it's changed. And not for the better. 

The bigger problem is I'm not sure how we get out. It would take people forgiving and making amends and not being obsessed about pointing out the wrong someone did to them. And that seems like a tall order. Way easier to slap back and forth and score gotcha points. 

It is just evolution of the board.  I am a member of a big golf forum that used to be great.  Over time it has turned into such a mess that I don`t even go there any more.  And that is with no political talk allowed.

 

[GoBirds]

Wow. Did someone really start this thread? 

How many times are the board liberals going to rewrite history to fit the narrative?  Skews right?  Get outta' here.

Yep, I think you nailed it. 
 

Also let’s face the facts, this was never created to be a true political forum. It was created to be a forum to rant about Trump. Now that it doesn’t serve as the daily outlet it did many that were consumed by that don’t have much to offer. Hopefully have moved on to more healthy outlets. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

We are all adults. Do people actually get offended by emojis?

Yes, we're all adults. 

But people can still use emojis to troll or be uncool. Both those things we ask people not to do. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

It is just evolution of the board.  I am a member of a big golf forum that used to be great.  Over time it has turned into such a mess that I don`t even go there any more.  And that is with no political talk allowed.

There's truth there too. This is a mature board. Lots of folks have been here a long time. And this kind of thing can happen over time. When many of us started here, there weren't a ton of options for community like this. Now there are tons.

I do think though the answer is not to just throw up the hands and say it's devolved or matured. I think it requires a more mature level of understanding. Just like any long time community or relationship.

The question, and I truly don't know the answer though: Is that too much to ask?

 

[Cowboysfan8]

Yes, we're all adults. 

But people can still use emojis to troll or be uncool. Both those things we ask people not to do. 

Understood

I guess I meant...do people actually report others for using an emoji

 

[Da Guru]

There's truth there too. This is a mature board. Lots of folks have been here a long time. And this kind of thing can happen over time. When many of us started here, there weren't a ton of options for community like this. Now there are tons.

I do think though the answer is not to just throw up the hands and say it's devolved or matured. I think it requires a more mature level of understanding. Just like any long time community or relationship.

The question, and I truly don't know the answer though: Is that too much to ask?

You have been trying for years, there is no real answer or solution. Actually it is common.

The PSF is different from the FFA because a couple people dominate the direction the board goes. Not much you can do about that.

 

[Joe Bryant]

And this goes back to the bigger picture of why we moderate.

The primary reason is I think (and I'm totally open to being wrong) it helps create good discussion.

I learned this lesson some 25 years ago when I encouraged a well known fantasy football writer to join us on the use.net boards. He wrote a long and thoughtful post and spent a ton of time on it. It was great value to the group. The first reply was "you suck".

He messaged me and said, "I'm done". And never contributed another thing.

One might say he was being thin skinned. I say he had tons of platforms begging for him to contribute his work. He had no interest in contributing where he had to put up with people like that. 

My takeaway was simply: "The community has missed a ton of value because of a troll". 

When we started here, I knew one of the keys to the forum's success would be having quality posters. And I wanted to do all we could to encourage them to be here. Part of that was asking people to be excellent to each other. 

Not to mention, that's just a better way in my opinion to have any community. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Understood

I guess I meant...do people actually report others for using an emoji

It's not about reporting. It's about being uncool to each other. 

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

There's truth there too. This is a mature board. Lots of folks have been here a long time. And this kind of thing can happen over time. When many of us started here, there weren't a ton of options for community like this. Now there are tons.

I do think though the answer is not to just throw up the hands and say it's devolved or matured. I think it requires a more mature level of understanding. Just like any long time community or relationship.

The question, and I truly don't know the answer though: Is that too much to ask?

How many years have you asked?   The PSF has a tone that's entrenched and I don't see it ever changing.  There's very few productive discussions and just day after day after day of people trying to win a conversation, insult others, play link/source cop, etc....  it NEVER changes.

 

[bigmarc27]

How many years have you asked?   The PSF has a tone that's entrenched and I don't see it ever changing.  There's very few productive discussions and just day after day after day of people trying to win a conversation, insult others, play link/source cop, etc....  it NEVER changes.

Yeah I’ll be honest I find his explanations at best naive, and more probably disingenuous.  For someone who runs a website, there’s a real lack of understanding how the internet works. 
 

You really want it to work - separate forums. One for Right, one for left, and one for the middle that is heavily moderated.

 

[bigbottom]

Yeah I’ll be honest I find his explanations at best naive, and more probably disingenuous.  For someone who runs a website, there’s a real lack of understanding how the internet works. 
 

You really want it to work - separate forums. One for Right, one for left, and one for the middle that is heavily moderated.

Disingenuous? That seems highly unlikely. I am 100% positive that Joe would prefer far less ugliness in the PSF. It would mean far fewer headaches for him.

 

[bigmarc27]

Disingenuous? That seems highly unlikely. I am 100% positive that Joe would prefer far less ugliness in the PSF. It would mean far fewer headaches for him.

Prefer it, sure. Think that’s even in the realm of possibilities?  Not a chance - severe disconnect from reality. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Disingenuous? That seems highly unlikely. I am 100% positive that Joe would prefer far less ugliness in the PSF. It would mean far fewer headaches for him.

Thank you GB. Fully admit to being too optimistic or even naive. I've got lots of failings. But I feel pretty confident I'm not being disingenuous here. 

As far as not "understanding how the internet works", I'm still learning and quite hopeful...  

 

[bigbottom]

Prefer it, sure. Think that’s even in the realm of possibilities?  Not a chance - severe disconnect from reality. 

If that’s the case, why do you bother to report people?

 

[bigmarc27]

Well good luck with all that. If the headaches are worth the clicks, you do you but don’t act all surprised at what you see happening. 

 

[bigmarc27]

If that’s the case, why do you bother to report people?

Trying to see if they cared to moderate or just let the zoo operate on its own. 

 

[timschochet]

Agreed. I was trying to be nice...  

I don’t agree, obviously. 
I know you think I was trying to be snarky or play “gotcha”, that was not the case. I start threads with one goal in mind, always: is this an interesting topic? If nobody else thinks so, then the thread will die quickly. This one didn’t, which means that other people here find it interesting as well. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Your original assertion is laughable, so a laughing emoji succinctly and correctly portrayed the response I needed. 

Yeah. We're asking people not to do that. 

If you disagree, state your point and make a case for discussion. Thanks. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Well good luck with all that. If the headaches are worth the clicks, you do you but don’t act all surprised at what you see happening. 

Thanks. I always take good luck wishes. 

And yes, like anything, it's a question of the good outweighing the negative. The negative is clearly the headache and time and money needed.

But the clicks aren't of much value. The Community is what I value. That's the positive. There are lots of real people who've made real friends here. There's been mountains of good discussion here. That's the positive. 

As far as acting surprised, I don't think I've been surprised much.

 

[bigmarc27]

Thanks. I always take good luck wishes. 

And yes, like anything, it's a question of the good outweighing the negative. The negative is clearly the headache and time and money needed.

But the clicks aren't of much value. The Community is what I value. That's the positive. There are lots of real people who've made real friends here. There's been mountains of good discussion here. That's the positive. 

As far as acting surprised, I don't think I've been surprised much.

I’d guess I’d say your community is act 3 of Lord of the Flies right now and Piggy is running out of time. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

I’d guess I’d say your community is act 3 of Lord of the Flies right now and Piggy is running out of time. 

You could well be right.

I hope you're not.

Like most things, we'll see. 

 

[identikit]

I don’t agree, obviously. 
I know you think I was trying to be snarky or play “gotcha”, that was not the case. I start threads with one goal in mind, always: is this an interesting topic? If nobody else thinks so, then the thread will die quickly. This one didn’t, which means that other people here find it interesting as well. 

I don’t agree, obviously. 

Also, I don't think you can help it.

It happens wayyyy too often.

 

[BladeRunner]

The fact that you stand behind what you said and the mods didn’t care illustrated all I needed to know. 

That says more about you than me.  Maybe the mods sided with me because you were being unreasonable and thin-skinned?   That's something YOU need to deal with, not us.  Maybe being shackled to your orthodoxy is the problem? 

This is exactly what we talk about in the Cancel Culture/Woke thread - using accusations of RACISM and HATE SPEECH as a weapon to inhibit or silence views that don't align with yours.  Your constant hammering of the report button is an extension (along with your baseless declarations of racism and hate speech) of that but I think what makes you angry is that the mods don't side with you despite most, if not all of them, leaning liberal.  I think deep down you're angry because you know you may be wrong.

Of course, I can't speak for the mods, or you for that matter, but that's just my opinion.  Lighten up and things are going to be a-ok in here.  We can all get along.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I don’t agree, obviously. 

Also, I don't think you can help it.

It happens wayyyy too often.

Tim posts a lot, yeah, but nobody is forcing anyone to participate in a thread dialogue.  Just scroll on by.  It's not heroin.

 

[timschochet]

Tim posts a lot, yeah, but nobody is forcing anyone to participate in a thread dialogue.  Just scroll on by.  Its not heroin

It very well could be to him. He posts in nearly every discussion I participate in these days, and it’s almost always some form of personal attack. 

 

[Navin Johnson]

It very well could be to him. He posts in nearly every discussion I participate in these days, and it’s almost always some form of personal attack. 

I mean it might be an issue if you came into every thread hijacking the conversation, ironically, what they seem to be doing in your threads.

 

[timschochet]

I mean it might be an issue if you came into every thread hijacking the conversation, ironically, what they seem to be doing in your threads.

It’s just a couple of people. Most folks here, including the ones who disagree with me a majority of the time, engage in respectful and thoughtful discussion and debate. 

 

[identikit]

It very well could be to him. He posts in nearly every discussion I participate in these days, and it’s almost always some form of personal attack. 

I don't do drugs.

Disagreeing with your posts isn't a personal attack.  it's just a different opinion.

And you participate in wayyy too many topics for me to be 'in nearly every discussion.'

So that's untrue.

I simply don't have the time for (or the need to do)  it.

 

[bigmarc27]

  We can all get along.

No, we can’t. You know that as well as I do, it’s probably the one thing we agree on. I’ve seen enough to know that my view and your views in regards to equality, compassion, and humanity are at polar opposites of the spectrum. There is no middle ground, so I’ll do my best to ignore. 

 

[CentralPA]

There's truth there too. This is a mature board. Lots of folks have been here a long time. And this kind of thing can happen over time. When many of us started here, there weren't a ton of options for community like this. Now there are tons.

I do think though the answer is not to just throw up the hands and say it's devolved or matured. I think it requires a more mature level of understanding. Just like any long time community or relationship.

The question, and I truly don't know the answer though: Is that too much to ask?

Respectfully disagree

 

[timschochet]

No, we can’t. You know that as well as I do, it’s probably the one thing we agree on. I’ve seen enough to know that my view and your views in regards to equality, compassion, and humanity are at polar opposites of the spectrum. There is no middle ground, so I’ll do my best to ignore. 

OK, I have to take issue with this. I’ve agreed with some of your points in this thread but this goes way too far. 
I strongly disagree with @BladeRunneron a variety of issues. I think he is filled with paranoia and wrongheaded ideas about his opponents, and as I’ve pointed out recently, IMO his knowledge of history is skewed and full of misinformation. But to assert that he is lacking in humanity and compassion is not only false, it’s really below the pale. Come on now. 

 

[Ghost Rider]

No, we can’t. You know that as well as I do, it’s probably the one thing we agree on. I’ve seen enough to know that my view and your views in regards to equality, compassion, and humanity are at polar opposites of the spectrum. There is no middle ground, so I’ll do my best to ignore. 

You cannot get along with someone with whom you disagree? 

 

[bigmarc27]

OK, I have to take issue with this. I’ve agreed with some of your points in this thread but this goes way too far. 
I strongly disagree with @BladeRunneron a variety of issues. I think he is filled with paranoia and wrongheaded ideas about his opponents, and as I’ve pointed out recently, IMO his knowledge of history is skewed and full of misinformation. But to assert that he is lacking in humanity and compassion is not only false, it’s really below the pale. Come on now. 

Agree to disagree. 

 

[bigmarc27]

You cannot get along with someone with whom you disagree? 

That’s a loaded question and not what I said at all, and you know that. 

 

[squistion]

Not childish at all. I've talked about that for a while. It was meant to be laughing "with" but it seems most of the time I see I see it, it's trolling laughing "at" someone. 

I have been saying that for years, get rid of it. It has gone beyond the original intent and is now used primarily in this forum to ridicule or mock the posts of others.

If the emoji was banned, those who want to convey the same thought or idea could manually type out LMAO! and literally say the exact same thing, so the thought that is being expressed would still be conveyed without any censorship. In addition, the mods would be spared having to take the time constantly to make a judgment call on what the poster's intent is.

 

[Gilroy34]

No, we can’t. You know that as well as I do, it’s probably the one thing we agree on. I’ve seen enough to know that my view and your views in regards to equality, compassion, and humanity are at polar opposites of the spectrum. There is no middle ground, so I’ll do my best to ignore. 

Looks to me like you don't have much compassion for folks with opposing politicsl views than you

 

[bigmarc27]

Looks to me like you don't have much compassion for folks with opposing politicsl views than you

Not true, I’m open to many discussions on abortion, fiscal policy, military, etc...  someone who states that people of different skin color wanting to be treated equal as a means to take vengeance on whites is not a statement of politics, it’s lunacy. 

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

And this goes back to the bigger picture of why we moderate.

The primary reason is I think (and I'm totally open to being wrong) it helps create good discussion.

I learned this lesson some 25 years ago when I encouraged a well known fantasy football writer to join us on the use.net boards. He wrote a long and thoughtful post and spent a ton of time on it. It was great value to the group. The first reply was "you suck".

He messaged me and said, "I'm done". And never contributed another thing.

One might say he was being thin skinned. I say he had tons of platforms begging for him to contribute his work. He had no interest in contributing where he had to put up with people like that. 

My takeaway was simply: "The community has missed a ton of value because of a troll". 

When we started here, I knew one of the keys to the forum's success would be having quality posters. And I wanted to do all we could to encourage them to be here. Part of that was asking people to be excellent to each other. 

Not to mention, that's just a better way in my opinion to have any community. 

I don't know if it was the same user groups but I read a few of those during 2000 (the year) and I wasn't going near them as a poster.  But there was you, and @Maurile Tremblayand a few others from there that was must reads.  On May 1st 2001 this place opened with most of those "must reads" here along with many of the websites that dotted the landscape in 2000.  I waited until May 2nd to join to post.  It took a day to see that this place was going to be a bit different.  And then I posted about Eddie George's usage in 2020 (8 games where he carried the ball around 40 times and 8 game where he carried the ball around 10 times) and all of those that rode Eddie George to championships chimed in and it showed while this place wasn't as nasty it was certainly as passionate.  And it wasn't necessarily fun to be a contrarian, but it was the contrarian voices that make this place special.  The utterly stupid belief that Toyotas are grown in the fields of Iowa;  the ridiculousness of the FairTax; being anti Iraq War in early 2002;  etc.  (FYI - I can take credit for none of these - eta and the "utterly stupid" and "ridiculousness" here mean thought provoking and challenging)  that make this place special.   Including the contrarian belief that this place can be different.

So I don't think I have mentioned it, happy first twenty years of this place.  And thanks.

 

[Gilroy34]

Not true, I’m open to many discussions on abortion, fiscal policy, military, etc...  someone who states that people of different skin color wanting to be treated equal as a means to take vengeance on whites is not a statement of politics, it’s lunacy. 

I personally have not seen anyone say your last sentence.

 

[bigmarc27]

I personally have not seen anyone say your last sentence.

Explore the threads more. 

 

[supermike80]

You cannot get along with someone with whom you disagree? 

That's a little relative.  When you are labelled with something, such as being a racist, only because of who you may or may not support politically, that's a tough one to overcome.   

 

[Joe Bryant]

Respectfully disagree

Ha. I mean "mature" in the sense of the board is established and has been here a long while. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

I don't know if it was the same user groups but I read a few of those during 2000 (the year) and I wasn't going near them as a poster.  But there was you, and @Maurile Tremblayand a few others from there that was must reads.  On May 1st 2001 this place opened with most of those "must reads" here along with many of the websites that dotted the landscape in 2000.  I waited until May 2nd to join to post.  It took a day to see that this place was going to be a bit different.  And then I posted about Eddie George's usage in 2020 (8 games where he carried the ball around 40 times and 8 game where he carried the ball around 10 times) and all of those that rode Eddie George to championships chimed in and it showed while this place wasn't as nasty it was certainly as passionate.  And it wasn't necessarily fun to be a contrarian, but it was the contrarian voices that make this place special.  The utterly stupid belief that Toyotas are grown in the fields of Iowa;  the ridiculousness of the FairTax; being anti Iraq War in early 2002;  etc.  (FYI - I can take credit for none of these - eta and the "utterly stupid" and "ridiculousness" here mean thought provoking and challenging)  that make this place special.   Including the contrarian belief that this place can be different.

So I don't think I have mentioned it, happy first twenty years of this place.  And thanks.

Thanks GB. That's exactly what I'm talking about. 

I'm glad you joined us back then and I'm thankful for all the contributions and I'm glad you're here now.