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Respectful discussion and debate with Trump supporters requested: Topic # 1 Undocumented immigration (1 Viewer)

Courtjester said:
Tim, I give you complete credit for being consistent in your views, but it is sort of an exercise in futility to discuss this issue with you. You are an open borders guy and that is something I vehement oppose.

Illegals or whatever you want to call them cost America as a whole and no other area is this seen than education, My wife has been in education for over 25 years and the absolute drain it costs to our educational system is staggering. The need for more and more and more interpreter services is just one example. The budgets for school districts is already strained and I know this is one area of need that is just exploding. When you have special needs kids that come from undocumented individuals--it is a lost cause. My wife will arrange IEPs that require home intervention and the parents will just blow her off because they don't speak English and are making zero effort to learn it--which they need to do to help their Americanized kids. Standardized test scores (which alot of time affect school funding) are lower with undocumented students from Mexico because of the language barriers. Having to provide bilingual literature costs money that these school districts don't have and should be going to make American students better.

You quote violent offense numbers and you may be right about this, but the amount of court intervention with undocumented people is extreme. I have challenged you in the past to go to your local courthouse and see all the efforts the judicial system has to expend to address these people. Our interpreter budget has risen 10 fold and that has come at the expense of many other programs that would have benefited Americans. Traffic court is a mess--most, if not all, do not have a driver's license or insurance (but again we should probably let bygones be bygones with illegals because they WANT to be here). I don't have the site but I will find it, the amount of traffic fatalities caused by undocumented individuals is disproportionately large--which makes sense because they don't understand the street signs or the rules of the road. A large percentage of them, after being found guilty of offenses, simply blow the fines off because they go to Mexico and magically come back as Gonzales-Hernandez or Hernandez-Gonzalez and there is zero way to link them or initiate collection activity.  ID theft as has been mentioned before, is rampant with the undocumented. DHS services for undocumented kids from abusive household is another area where the American tax payers eat the cost as American parents charged with this are hit with the costs to reimburse placement services, there is no way to collect against the undocumented parents.  Again Judicial districts having to provide everything in a bi-lingual format cost money. 

I can post more re: Stem jobs lost by American students to visa holders, medical costs incurred by Undocumented medical bills at ERs that are left unpaid, but I have to go to dinner here. I think we can find a middle ground on how to fix it. 

Bottom line: I want a lamborghini, there is literally no path for me to obtain one, but I don't get to take it. Coming to American is not a right---maybe stay and make your own country better. Be the change for where you live and stop expecting others to conform, change and pay for your what you want. 
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Great post. Thanks 

 
Court Jester thanks for your post. I get your point about education and Im not going to deny it's a problem. There is no doubt in my mind that undocumented aliens specifically put social services at risk in the border states, particularly California, Arizona, Texas. I would dispute the level of their negative impact in states that are not on our borders. 

That being said, there is also no doubt in my mind that the presence of these people help lower our consumer prices and are therefore beneficial as a whole for all 50 states. This is why I've long advocated federal assistance to help the border states pay for the extra costs to education, healthcare, and policing that burden them. I believe this would be a lot cheaper than a useless attempt at stricter enforcement and it would serve to alleviate many of the problems you're justly concerned about. 

 
irishidiot said:
most don't die young, but most are about improving their family lives.  Hard workers too. 
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I had a client once, undocumented, being exploited by his employer, got hit by a car driven by a drunk state employee, big mess of a lawsuit. Guy had a shattered spine and pelvis, was back to work in a few months picking fruit to send money home to his wife and kids.  Hardest worker, strongest will I've maybe ever seen. 

Dead as a doornail now, basically worked himself to death, but great guy.

 
Irishidiot, I can only speak for myself but I don't care one iota about votes. In the first place I don't think undocumented aliens should ever be allowed to vote. But if their children all grow up to be Trump nationalists it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference as to how I view this issue. 

 
timschochet said:
Irishidiot, I can only speak for myself but I don't care one iota about votes. In the first place I don't think undocumented aliens should ever be allowed to vote. But if their children all grow up to be Trump nationalists it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference as to how I view this issue. 
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appreciate your honesty & I mostly believe you.

 
timschochet said:
Court Jester thanks for your post. I get your point about education and Im not going to deny it's a problem. There is no doubt in my mind that undocumented aliens specifically put social services at risk in the border states, particularly California, Arizona, Texas. I would dispute the level of their negative impact in states that are not on our borders. 

That being said, there is also no doubt in my mind that the presence of these people help lower our consumer prices and are therefore beneficial as a whole for all 50 states. This is why I've long advocated federal assistance to help the border states pay for the extra costs to education, healthcare, and policing that burden them. I believe this would be a lot cheaper than a useless attempt at stricter enforcement and it would serve to alleviate many of the problems you're justly concerned about. 
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So the huge strain on education for our kids , not to mention our special needs kids and everything else he mentioned in those states is worth it so long as the rest of the country can buy cheap fruit?

 
One thing that jonessed wrote early in this thread had an impact on me: he complained that we do this every year. 

That is correct, but I sense a change coming. I don't know if it will be that Trump will get the enforcement he wants, or that I will get the path  to legal recognition and amnesty for undocumented that I want- but I don't think that the current status quo which we've all been debating for years is going to last much longer. I have nothing to back this up; just a hunch. 

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
So the huge strain on education for our kids , not to mention our special needs kids and everything else he mentioned in those states is worth it so long as the rest of the country can buy cheap fruit?
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Essentially...yes. I believe the benefit outweighs the cost. 

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
So the huge strain on education for our kids , not to mention our special needs kids and everything else he mentioned in those states is worth it so long as the rest of the country can buy cheap fruit?
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I'll say this - I would very much like this country to stop exploiting all workers.  I would very much like great education. If I believe at some point that tougher immigration enforcement will lead to those - or even improve those substantially at all - I stand absolutely in favor of tougher immigration enforcement. 

But Obama really had the toughest immigration enforcement we've ever seen in many ways. And things got exponentially worse in those two arenas during his time. I think bringing everything into the light, not creating deeper and deeper black markets for labor and goods and more frightened kids the school won't turn on, is the way to help those things.  In an ideal world maybe it would help more, but when you meet a kid who's 15 and a border jumper because her parents brought her here, you're going to stay silent and help if you're going to sleep at night.  And that undermines it as surely as the war on drugs was undermined by everyone knowing someone who smokes weed.  In my opinion, obviously.  

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
Benefits that outweigh the fact that schools are losing much needed funds? 

I'd be curious to know what they are
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Well for example, the child of one of these undocumented aliens might grow up to be the next Jonas Salk. Or Steve Jobs. Both were the children of immigrants who were not wanted in this country.

 
irishidiot said:
not going to let this go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ7968BbMnU
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Nor should you. 

Nor should any of us. 

Anyone who thinks people of Mexican descent are dirty, lazy, or worthless to this country should be beaten about the neck and head with a club.  It's that issue that crushes the immigration debate, because the left is so afraid of letting those people make policy (like they did for many decades) and the right is knee jerk against being accused of it (which isn't exactly surprising because no sane person feels that way.)

kind of like lots of debates in this country.  Same with "entitlements" - trying to stop his disability payments.  Completely insane. 

Great post. 

 
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Cowboysfan8 said:
So the huge strain on education for our kids , not to mention our special needs kids and everything else he mentioned in those states is worth it so long as the rest of the country can buy cheap fruit?
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It cuts both ways. My first wife (RIP) grew up in a small orchard town in the Hudson Valley. Migrant workers were vital in getting the apples and other crops picked. During the picking season, the children of the migrants attended the local public schools. These kids were way behind & the teachers feeling sorry for them  used the opportunity to have the local kids help tutor/mentor them before their parents moved on the next crop in some other town. So the local kids were taken away from their studies for a while & had to work that much harder to cover the materials that would appear in the Regent's Exam (statewide proficiency tests).

Everyone understood the value of the migrant workers, even though some grumbled. Without them much of the local economy would suffer. And the local kids learned compassion.

 
Okay I am going to follow up on my long winded post with another. 

One of the biggest things I see is the  societal divide between generations ie:  The original undocumented parents versus their Americanized offspring. The parents tend to be exactly as Tim romanticizes--hard working, manual labor people.  They show up in their housekeeping/mechanic uniforms and they embody all that are people in search of the  American Dream. 

Their kids don't get it. Many of them look upon their parents as aliens and can't begin to understand the sacrifices they made and the hardship they endured so they could have the lives they do. 

So how do we fix this?

We need effective immigration reform. 

But to have any form of enforcement on a law, we need a wall/fence/alligator filled moat in some areas coupled with technology and manpower to cover the other areas. We need e-verify and strong enforcement/fines on companies that hire undocumented individuals. We deport all the illegal criminals once the wall is in place. We begin a policy of expedited registration for those that can stay. They get ids. They stay clean for "x" period of time--they become naturalized citizens but they cannot vote. If you don't register within the time period, you are fingerprinted and gone. No fines, no stupid American history test, no you have to speak English (but classes are made available). Just be law abiding and pay your taxes like we all try to do and you can stay. 

We then create an agreement with Mexico to allow a certain number of immigrants in a year so those that want to come to America can legally, after vetting and fingerprints are done. 

 Maybe I'm being oversimplistic, but I feel this is a good place to start and yes, I am a Trump supporter

 
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I feel bad for all the people who have gone through the system and became Americans the right way...all that time and money spent ...its not fair

maybe we should give them all the money back that they paid .....my co-worker from England  spent 30 thousand dollars getting his wife and 2 kids legal

 
Courtjester said:
Okay I am going to follow up on my long winded post with another. 

One of the biggest things I see is the  societal divide between generations ie:  The original undocumented parents versus their Americanized offspring. The parents tend to be exactly as Tim romanticizes--hard working, manual labor people.  They show up in their housekeeping/mechanic uniforms and they embody all that are people in search of the  American Dream. 

Their kids don't get it. Many of them look upon their parents as aliens and can't begin to understand the sacrifices they made and the hardship they endured so they could have the lives they do. 

So how do we fix this?

We need effective immigration reform. 

But to have any form of enforcement on a law, we need a wall/fence/alligator filled moat in some areas coupled with technology and manpower to cover the other areas. We need e-verify and strong enforcement/fines on companies that hire undocumented individuals. We deport all the illegal criminals once the wall is in place. We begin a policy of expedited registration for those that can stay. They get ids. They stay clean for "x" period of time--they become naturalized citizens but they cannot vote. If you don't register within the time period, you are fingerprinted and gone. No fines, no stupid American history test, no you have to speak English (but classes are made available). Just be law abiding and pay your taxes like we all try to do and you can stay. 

We then create an agreement with Mexico to allow a certain number of immigrants in a year so those that want to come to America can legally, after vetting and fingerprints are done. 

 Maybe I'm being oversimplistic, but I feel this is a good place to start and yes, I am a Trump supporter
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I'm all for "register and accept the societal boons" but it's been suggested for a long time on a very limited basis (just for kids brought here underage who then contribute to society) and Congress has refused for a full generation.  I don't get it either. 

 
Dr Oadi said:
1) Yes we can!

2) Yes. To stop the invasion. 100% unless one of you wackjobs whack Trump. 

3) DunNo DunCare and noting because I'll be able to spend more because I'll no longer be making the same pre NAFTA wage.  Merica #### Yeah!

4) They have babies that grow up and vote Democrat. That's not good for America. Unless you are a Democrat and want over half the population subsidized by the government. 
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Im guessing nobody responded to this drivel because this guys on most peoples ignore list?  Damn, need to update mine.

 
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-immigration-california-idUSKBN1662KA?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=58b4efe604d3012db3fcc9c2&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

California demands details of Trump administration immigration arrests

California legislative leaders on Monday demanded detailed information from the Trump administration on immigration arrests and raids in the most populous U.S. state, amid growing concern that agents are targeting non-criminals for deportation.

Citing reports that agents for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE, had gone to churches, schools and courthouses to find and arrest illegal immigrants, the legislature used the federal Freedom of Information Act to request all records of enforcement actions taken or planned since Republican Donald Trump was sworn in as president on Jan. 20.

"Despite saying he’d only target dangerous criminals, President Trump’s executive orders target practically every undocumented person in California," said Senate President Pro Tem Kevin de León, who signed the request along with Assembly Speaker Anthony Rendon.

ICE did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

California is home to nearly 3 million illegal immigrants among a total non-citizen population of 5.4 million, according to the legislature and the Public Policy Institute of California, making the state a crucible for Trump's new get-tough immigration policies.

Trump recently broadened the categories of people who could be targeted for immigration enforcement to anyone who had been charged with a crime, removing an Obama-era exception for people convicted of traffic misdemeanors.

 
BowieMercs said:
If they made $10K, I'd owe enough extra tax to be keenly aware something was wrong when I was penalized for under reporting and underpayment.
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Lot of talk about this specific aspect, but I'd have to think that those taxes and earnings are quickly and easily flagged by the IRS, and are already not being applied to the American taxpayers figures. After all, identity, even to the IRS is more than JUST the SSN...the person paying the taxes also has to provided a name. THe illegals provide a real name to the people they work for. The employer takes the taxes out and forwards them to the IRS. The IRS easily notes the name doesn't match the SSN, and that the employer (in many cases) is in a different STATE from the name that DOES match the SSN. At that point, the IRS simply keeps the money and watches for a SECOND refund request, under the wrong name, from the wrong state. If that refund request never comes, why should the IRS go any further...it just collected tax money for free.

Why would we care about this? Other than a simple desire to get rid of all illegals period. It's really astretch to even call this identity theft, since nothing is really stolen. In most cases, the SSN is probably made up and matches by accident.

 
BowieMercs said:
Go back to your tax return  & add in a fake 1099 for for $10,000.  Report your results here.
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The IRS isn't hitting us for this money...the name doesn't match. TO the IRS, this is free money nobody will try to claim a refund on.

If anything, the fact that some illegals are paying the payroll taxes is an argument against the supposed burden the right insists they have on our economy.

 
BowieMercs said:
It cuts both ways. My first wife (RIP) grew up in a small orchard town in the Hudson Valley. Migrant workers were vital in getting the apples and other crops picked. During the picking season, the children of the migrants attended the local public schools. These kids were way behind & the teachers feeling sorry for them  used the opportunity to have the local kids help tutor/mentor them before their parents moved on the next crop in some other town. So the local kids were taken away from their studies for a while & had to work that much harder to cover the materials that would appear in the Regent's Exam (statewide proficiency tests).

Everyone understood the value of the migrant workers, even though some grumbled. Without them much of the local economy would suffer. And the local kids learned compassion.
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Yes. It's a much bigger problem than most think and it's not border states.  It happens a lot in northern Ohio. 

 
Courtjester said:
Okay I am going to follow up on my long winded post with another. 

One of the biggest things I see is the  societal divide between generations ie:  The original undocumented parents versus their Americanized offspring. The parents tend to be exactly as Tim romanticizes--hard working, manual labor people.  They show up in their housekeeping/mechanic uniforms and they embody all that are people in search of the  American Dream. 

Their kids don't get it. Many of them look upon their parents as aliens and can't begin to understand the sacrifices they made and the hardship they endured so they could have the lives they do. 

So how do we fix this?
Click to expand...
That's the human condition, bro. You never read The Good Earth?

Was just talking to some Vietnamese parents about this the other night. They came here as asylum refugees 40 years ago, put their kids through private schools while working hourly wage jobs, own rental properties (kids incurred no college debt because they won merit scholarships), and spoil their grandkids. Their kids saw how hard they worked and emulated them. The grandkids already feel like it's everyone else's job to serve them. And they're resigned to the fact that whatever the grandkids don't squander, the unborn great-grandkids (who will be insufferable with their sense of entitlement) most definitely will.

This cycle plays itself across generations and in vastly different cultures. It's just how we are hard wired.

ASIDE - for the most part, really good and civil discussion in here, especially relative to other political topics in the FFA.

 
Henry Ford said:
To expand on the oft-used Republican "let them into your house" analogy for border jumpers to discuss only refugees - if your neighbor was being chased by her husband, holding her kid, begging for help and you lock the door and refuse to open it for her... I just don't know what to say to that.  
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 I attend one of the largest churches in Atlanta- our message this week was about refugees - it was a great message about what is best for people is best.  What we do is a drop in the bucket but our church has given 1M over the years to refugee programs home and abroad to help these unfortunate people who find themselves homeless.  The one point our pastor made that really stuck out to me - these people largely don't want to be here.  They want to be in their own country, where they speak their language and have customs they are used to.  They are here and in other countries mainly because it's the only way to survive.  It's very sad and troubling and we as humans beings should be doing more for these people.

 
timschochet said:
Well for example, the child of one of these undocumented aliens might grow up to be the next Jonas Salk. Or Steve Jobs. Both were the children of immigrants who were not wanted in this country.
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But were they the children of illegal immigrants? If not I am uncertain how that example would be pertinent to this discussion.  Also, is there any indication that they would not have made their advances working in their Parents home countries, or any indication that they  would not have found their own ways here to experience the influences which helped drive their advancements?

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
But were they the children of illegal immigrants? If not I am uncertain how that example would be pertinent to this discussion.  Also, is there any indication that they would not have made their advances working in their Parents home countries, or any indication that they  would not have found their own ways here to experience the influences which helped drive their advancements?
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I certainly don't think Apple could have been founded in Syria, for what it's worth.

 
I notice that many conflate the benefits of legal immigration with illegal immigration.  I believe immigration is a good thing, in measured amounts allowing and encouraging integration.  I believe in student visas generously allowed, and am a fan of responsible guest worker programs.  I see no benefit to illegal immigration, to our country.

Were I on the wrong side of a border with may family and looking for a better life I would seek legal means to cross that border, but I would not limit myself to those means.  Not as a father looking to provide for my family.s  

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
But were they the children of illegal immigrants? If not I am uncertain how that example would be pertinent to this discussion.  Also, is there any indication that they would not have made their advances working in their Parents home countries, or any indication that they  would not have found their own ways here to experience the influences which helped drive their advancements?
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With regard to your first question, I actually take the opposite position: what difference if their parents came here legally or not? I don't know the answer, and I don't think it makes any difference in either case.

As to your second question, I think the answer is a definite yes. The United States has a long history of being more welcome to innovation than other countries, especially from immigrants. Beyond the samples I mentioned, it should be noted that both our nuclear energy and space programs were largely the result of refugee immigrants.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I notice that many conflate the benefits of legal immigration with illegal immigration.  I believe immigration is a good thing, in measured amounts allowing and encouraging integration.  I believe in student visas generously allowed, and am a fan of responsible guest worker programs.  I see no benefit to illegal immigration, to our country.

Were I on the wrong side of a border with may family and looking for a better life I would seek legal means to cross that border, but I would not limit myself to those means.  Not as a father looking to provide for my family.s  
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Obviously I strongly disagree with your first paragraph. In terms of benefit to us, why should there be any difference between legal immigration and undocumented immigration?

 
timschochet said:
With regard to your first question, I actually take the opposite position: what difference if their parents came here legally or not? I don't know the answer, and I don't think it makes any difference in either case.

As to your second question, I think the answer is a definite yes. The United States has a long history of being more welcome to innovation than other countries, especially from immigrants. Beyond the samples I mentioned, it should be noted that both our nuclear energy and space programs were largely the result of refugee immigrants.
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Legal immigrants.

You like to pretend that illegal immigration is inextricably entwined with immigration.  It is not.  Not as a logical necessity.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
In a discussion of illegal immigration it is not worth squat.  It is an instance wholly off point.
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Perhaps I misunderstood.  It appeared to me that you asked if there was reason to believe Steve Jobs could not have made his advances if his family had not immigrated.  Without Steve Woczniak Apple is never formed.  That seemed relevant.   It's early and Mardi Gras.  I'm sure I misread. 

 
timschochet said:
Obviously I strongly disagree with your first paragraph. In terms of benefit to us, why should there be any difference between legal immigration and undocumented immigration?
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In a country founded on the rule of law it means everything. Also society and its resources and laws need time to adjust and to absorb immigrants.  Excessive immigration from one region can easily lead to societal problems.  many countries have been split into civil war when the subcultures are not  integrated into the main culture.  this happens when there is a critical mass of folks in an area to maintain language, religion, and culture.

You believe in the poetry on the Statue of Liberty.  I believe in the Motto E Pluribus Unum. 

Everything you want you can have without the illegal element except our Country having its policies dictated by others.

 
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