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Revisiting the issue of allowing biological males to use women's bathrooms, and the Loudoun County rape case (1 Viewer)

I haven't posted in this thread or the one about girls sports, because this is not a topic I've really looked into. But there's something that's been bothering me for awhile now: leaving aside the specifics of this Loudon Co. incident or any of the various sports controversies, there is a long history in this country of trying to portray victims of violence as perpetrators. Most notably, in the Jim Crow South (and elsewhere), the specter of Black men committing sexual violence against white women became the rationale for a horrific level of violence against Black men.

I'm very concerned that we're seeing a similar dynamic with the latest controversies over trans people. I'm sure there are plenty of trans folks who are horrible human beings -- there are horrible people among just about every group -- but I worry that these portrayals of trans women as either sexual predators or athletic cheaters (with young cis-women the victims in both cases) will obscure the reality that the far bigger danger right now is to trans people, not from them. Trans people, especially youth, suffer from truly shocking levels of violence and suicides. Any discussion that fails to grapple with that fact is, IMO, the height of irresponsibility

 
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:confused:

Are you trying to be funny, or did you not read the article?


Did you read it?  Here, let me post an excerpt:
 

Then she proceeded to berate the girl, expressing doubts even after a judge found her son guilty.

'If I was in a position where I was about to be raped, I would be screaming, kicking, everything,' she said. 'You're 15. You can reasonably defend yourself. You're not just going to sit there and take it. And so, because there wasn't a presence of a fight, he felt it was okay to keep going.'

 
So you're calling me out for not reading it, but you didn't read it yourself?  I guess that explains a lot of your posts.
Apologies if you felt I was "calling you out." That was not my intent, though I can see how you thought I was.

 Most of the article referred to the mother of the accused admitting that her son is none of the things he's being portrayed as by the political hacks that have a hard-on over this case. He's not trans, he didn't attack some random girl, and the incident had nothing to do with his sexual identity or combined bathrooms, just being a disturbed and hormonal teen.

I don't appreciate the final insult, as I find most of your posts well-reasoned and non-reactionary, and I didn't insult you, or call you out. Feel free to let me know if you think I'm being out of line.

 
Apologies if you felt I was "calling you out." That was not my intent, though I can see how you thought I was.

 Most of the article referred to the mother of the accused admitting that her son is none of the things he's being portrayed as by the political hacks that have a hard-on over this case. He's not trans, he didn't attack some random girl, and the incident had nothing to do with his sexual identity or combined bathrooms, just being a disturbed and hormonal teen.

I don't appreciate the final insult, as I find most of your posts well-reasoned and non-reactionary, and I didn't insult you, or call you out. Feel free to let me know if you think I'm being out of line.
Whether he is trans or not makes little difference. Most people arent afraid that men that truly identify as women will go into women's bathrooms and rape women. 

The issue is that a male that pretends to identify as female can freely access the bathroom. 

 
Whether he is trans or not makes little difference. Most people arent afraid that men that truly identify as women will go into women's bathrooms and rape women. 

The issue is that a male that pretends to identify as female can freely access the bathroom. 
The particular incident that prompted this thread does not appear to lend any support to the theory that allowing trans kids to use bathrooms of their choice will lead to cis men accessing women’s bathrooms that they wouldn’t have otherwise been able to access.

 
I'm sure #metoo will show up any moment now to defend her.  I'm sure of it!
Huh?

There is a mother defending her son. It is wrong and the girl who got raped is in no way responsible and the dude should be punished accordingly. 

What is your point exactly?

 
Whether he is trans or not makes little difference. Most people arent afraid that men that truly identify as women will go into women's bathrooms and rape women. 

The issue is that a male that pretends to identify as female can freely access the bathroom. 
You sure about this? There's a evidence that a lot of people are afraid of exactly that.

Also, as far as men accessing women's bathrooms, you and I can do that right now in most places; work, stores, etc. It's not like anywhere has security at the bathroom doors. If no one sees you walk in, and you go into a stall, no one will know. I actually did this pretty recently at work when a men's room was under construction. But of course I knocked first and I just needed to go #2 really bad; I wasn't trying to rape or peep on anyone while I was in there...

 
Whether he is trans or not makes little difference. Most people arent afraid that men that truly identify as women will go into women's bathrooms and rape women. 

The issue is that a male that pretends to identify as female can freely access the bathroom. 
Also, the young people in question admit to setting a date and time to meet in the bathroom on the day of the incident and the boy then assaulted the girl against her will:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/in-case-at-center-of-political-firestorm-judge-finds-teen-committed-sexual-assault-in-virginia-school-bathroom/2021/10/25/42c037da-35cc-11ec-8be3-e14aaacfa8ac_story.html

"During the hearing, the 15-year-old victim in the first case testified she had consensual sexual encounters with the defendant on two occasions in a girls’ bathroom at Stone Bridge High School in Ashburn. On May 28, she said, the two arranged to meet again and the youth threw her to the floor and forced her to perform sex acts.

On Monday, the teenage victim of the Stone Bridge assault testified that she and her attacker had agreed to meet up in a school bathroom around 12:15 p.m. on the date of the assault. She testified they had not explicitly discussed having sex beforehand.

The teen testified she arrived first and chose to go in the girls’ bathroom because the two had always met in the girls’ bathrooms in the past. When the boy arrived, the teen testified, he came into the handicapped stall she was in and locked the door.

The two talked, before the girl testified the boy began grabbing her neck and other parts of her body in a sexual manner. She testified she told her attacker she was not in the mood for sex, but he forced himself on her.

“He flipped me over,” the girl testified. “I was on the ground and couldn’t move and he sexually assaulted me.”

"

 
So it has nothing to do with transgender bathroom usage at all. The rapist doesn’t appear to identify at transgender, he wasn’t allowed to be in the bathroom according the rules at the time and was invited into the bathroom by the victim. He wasn’t pretending to be transgender to sneak into the girls room either. It’s a rape that happened in a girl’s bathroom.

 
You sure about this? There's a evidence that a lot of people are afraid of exactly that.

Also, as far as men accessing women's bathrooms, you and I can do that right now in most places; work, stores, etc. It's not like anywhere has security at the bathroom doors. If no one sees you walk in, and you go into a stall, no one will know. I actually did this pretty recently at work when a men's room was under construction. But of course I knocked first and I just needed to go #2 really bad; I wasn't trying to rape or peep on anyone while I was in there...
What if somebody does?

Now imagine somebody sees you go into a bathroom that anybody is allowed to use?

 
What if somebody does?

Now imagine somebody sees you go into a bathroom that anybody is allowed to use?
If I was seen, I would expect security to be notified. And that may be an uncomfortable conversation for me, but I would stick with the truth.

I'm not sure what you're aiming for with your second question. If anyone was allowed to use it, no one would care that I was walking in. 

 
So it has nothing to do with transgender bathroom usage at all. The rapist doesn’t appear to identify at transgender, he wasn’t allowed to be in the bathroom according the rules at the time and was invited into the bathroom by the victim. He wasn’t pretending to be transgender to sneak into the girls room either. It’s a rape that happened in a girl’s bathroom.
I agree but both sides fought it over trans peoples rights instead of calling it what it was

 
Sorry about that - 

Lawsuit against Leon Schools says district excluded parents from gender discussions

Ana Goñi-Lessan   Tallahassee Democrat

A "public interest" law firm has filed suit on behalf of a Tallahassee couple against Leon County Schools, saying the district violated their rights because its LGBTQ policies exclude parents from conversations about their children's gender identity.

The lawsuit, filed by The Child & Parental Rights Campaign in federal court last month, asks for the district to change its LGBTQ guide to adhere to Florida's Parents' Bill of Rights. 

The Child & Parental Rights Campaign "was founded to respond to a radical new ideology overtaking families and threatening the well-being of children and the fundamental right of parents," according to the organization's website.

The lawsuit alleges the district spoke to the couple’s child about gender identity without their consent. However, school officials maintain a parent gave the school permission to let the child take the lead in discussions.

The lawsuit and email chain

The suit says in late spring of 2020, the couple’s middle-school child began experiencing gender dysphoria. The Democrat is not identifying the parents or the school to protect the identity of the child.

"Gender dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort or distress that might occur in people whose gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth or sex-related physical characteristics," according to the Mayo Clinic.

According to the suit, in August 2020, the mother emailed a math teacher about her child's gender identity and said they had found a counselor for their child. 

Even though the child asked to go by they/them pronouns and a different name, the parents did not agree to those changes and said the child's pronouns would remain those assigned at birth, according to the lawsuit.

The complaint states that the parents “...did not authorize [the math teacher] to tell other teachers, or anyone else, about using 'J.' as a nickname.” 

The complaint also says that the parents became upset when they found out the school discussed restroom preferences and name changes without their consent.

Emails obtained by The Democrat in a public records request, however, reveal the mother worked with a teacher to determine how best to navigate the situation.

After the August email from the mother informing the math teacher of her child’s gender identity and name preference, the math teacher responded:

“...Would you like me to share this with (redacted) other teachers? Or are you telling them? Thanks again.”

The mother replied:

“I honestly hadn’t gotten that far ... Whatever you think is best or [redacted] can handle it (pronoun redacted).”

Math teacher:

“If (pronoun redacted) really wants them to do this we really need to tell them. I can do it for you if you’d like. I am even the SAFE SPACE ally for (name of school redacted) for LGBTQ students.” 

Mother:

“That’s wonderful to hear … This gender situation has thrown us for a loop. I sincerely appreciate your support. I’m going to let (pronoun redacted) take the lead on this.”

The parents said the initial email was simply about the possibility of the child using a nickname with other teachers, said Vernadette Broyles, the parents' attorney.

"The transgression against parental rights went far beyond any limited authorization," Broyles said. "The fact that the parents were affirmatively communicating with the school, the fact that the school would take the situation and then cut them out and meet secretly with this child without the parents involved makes it worse when it was the parents who brought it to their attention in the first place."

LCS reviewing LGBTQ policy

At the time of the meeting, the district's LGBTQ guide stated that parents did not have to be told about a child's gender or sexual identity. The guide, which was taken down from the district's website and is currently being reviewed by the district, previously said:

"Q: A student has exhibited behavior in school leading administrators or teachers to believe the student is LGBTQ+. Should the parents or legal guardians be notified?

"A: No. Outing a student, especially to parents, can be very dangerous to the students [sic] health and well-being. Some students are not able to be out at home because their parents are unaccepting of LGBTQ+ people out. As many as 40% of homeless youth are LGBTQ+, many of whom have been rejected by their families for being LGBTQ+. Outing students to their parents can literally make them homeless."

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says schools should "identify 'safe spaces', such as counselors’ offices or designated classrooms, where LGB youth can receive support from administrators, teachers, or other school staff."

In the lawsuit, the parents say they repeatedly tried to contact Leon County Schools Superintendent Rocky Hanna and the district about the status of the new LGBTQ guide and even proposed changes, but revised guidance has yet to be published.

He initially apologized to the parents in a meeting, but he told the Democrat he wasn't aware of the email from the mother which said to let the child "take the lead."

"I felt like we would be able to work through it without it coming to this,” Hanna told the Democrat. "I think this is the case where a national group is getting involved just to politicize and to hype their personal agenda, and they're taking advantage of the parents, this situation and a minor child, without having all the information. The parents had given the school permission to let the child take the lead without their involvement."

Unless the district rescinds and stops using the LGBTQ guide and student support plans and begins notifying parents of gender identity issues, "the right of familial privacy will continue to be violated," the complaint says.

The parents' lawsuit asks for damages, including for emotional distress, saying their relationship with their child has been damaged because of the district.

"When the schools meet with the children under these circumstances without notifying the parents, it creates a huge wedge within the parent-child relationship," the mother told the Democrat. 

Contact Ana Goñi-Lessan at AGoniLessan@tallahassee.com and follow her on Twitter @goni_lessan. 

 
Sorry about that - 


Not sure what you're taking issue with.  The issue is about the school taking the parents out of the loop.  I mean, do you think the parents would have filed a lawsuit if the school district was working with them in the best interests of the child? 

 
Not sure what you're taking issue with.  The issue is about the school taking the parents out of the loop.  I mean, do you think the parents would have filed a lawsuit if the school district was working with them in the best interests of the child? 
Started off with the first headline - "Clandenstinely Orchestrated Gender Transition" is pretty strong words.  Then I read that this was much more like one session.  Then I read the email back and forth between the mom and the math teacher.  Then I read some neo-political group is running the lawsuit.  It all ends up being a bunch of BS, unless you like lawyers.  

 
The school system violated the Constitution by talking to the kid privately about where they wanted to use the bathroom?  I’m no law-talking guy but this seems like a stretch.

 
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Vermont male forces school district to close girls locker room.

:mellow:

This thread is about Loudoun County which is in Virginia.

Why are you posting something about a Vermont school district?
This is a really dumb question.

No it is a perfectly valid question to ask why anyone would post in a thread about a Viriginia school district what some unrelated Vermont male did. Is there some connection here between the two?
 
Vermont male forces school district to close girls locker room.

:mellow:

This thread is about Loudoun County which is in Virginia.

Why are you posting something about a Vermont school district?
This is a really dumb question.

No it is a perfectly valid question to ask why anyone would post in a thread about a Viriginia school district what some unrelated Vermont male did. Is there some connection here between the two?
Stop trolling.
 
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Vermont male forces school district to close girls locker room.

:mellow:

This thread is about Loudoun County which is in Virginia.

Why are you posting something about a Vermont school district?
This is a really dumb question.

No it is a perfectly valid question to ask why anyone would post in a thread about a Viriginia school district what some unrelated Vermont male did. Is there some connection here between the two?
No, it's dumb.
 
The title of the thread reads thusly: "Revisiting the issue of allowing biological males to use women's bathrooms, and the Loudoun County rape case". You have to be completely obtuse to not see where parasaurolophus got the idea he might post that in here. Unless the title changed after the exchange between the two posters, this is mere harassment and a harangue by the poster questioning parasaurolophus.

100%...hopefully someday there will be a Disinformation Governance Board so only approved topics can be discussed.
 
Vermont male forces school district to close girls locker room.

:mellow:

This thread is about Loudoun County which is in Virginia.

Why are you posting something about a Vermont school district?
This is a really dumb question.

No it is a perfectly valid question to ask why anyone would post in a thread about a Viriginia school district what some unrelated Vermont male did. Is there some connection here between the two?
Stop trolling.

I am not trolling. You posted in the wrong thread IMO. The thread title should be changed if this is not about the loundoun county rape case (it clearly says AND the loudoun county rape case)
 
Vermont male forces school district to close girls locker room.

:mellow:

This thread is about Loudoun County which is in Virginia.

Why are you posting something about a Vermont school district?
This is a really dumb question.

No it is a perfectly valid question to ask why anyone would post in a thread about a Viriginia school district what some unrelated Vermont male did. Is there some connection here between the two?
Stop trolling.

I am not trolling. You posted in the wrong thread IMO. The thread title should be changed if this is not about the loundoun county rape case (it clearly says AND the loudoun county rape case)
You’re not making sense
 
So regarding the story. A trans student is harrassed and bullied by the the girls volleyball team. They’re suspended from using the locker room. This causes an uproar among the usual suspects who seem to regard trans as a threat to our culture.

This whole story is ugly. As I’ve written before I’m not personally comfortable with trans students who are or were biologically male competing in girls sports because of the obvious physical advantages. But nobody should be happy with bullying, with kids being ostracized. This is the sort of thing that leads to so many of these kids committing suicide.

As a society we need to be more accepting of trans not less. That’s one of many reasons why the woke movement is overall a good thing IMO.
 
So regarding the story. A trans student is harrassed and bullied by the the girls volleyball team. They’re suspended from using the locker room. This causes an uproar among the usual suspects who seem to regard trans as a threat to our culture.

This whole story is ugly. As I’ve written before I’m not personally comfortable with trans students who are or were biologically male competing in girls sports because of the obvious physical advantages. But nobody should be happy with bullying, with kids being ostracized. This is the sort of thing that leads to so many of these kids committing suicide.

As a society we need to be more accepting of trans not less. That’s one of many reasons why the woke movement is overall a good thing IMO.

Don't disagree that people should be more accepting of people, in general. That being said, I am strongly opposed to permanent medical alterations on minors.
 
So regarding the story. A trans student is harrassed and bullied by the the girls volleyball team. They’re suspended from using the locker room. This causes an uproar among the usual suspects who seem to regard trans as a threat to our culture.

This whole story is ugly. As I’ve written before I’m not personally comfortable with trans students who are or were biologically male competing in girls sports because of the obvious physical advantages. But nobody should be happy with bullying, with kids being ostracized. This is the sort of thing that leads to so many of these kids committing suicide.

As a society we need to be more accepting of trans not less. That’s one of many reasons why the woke movement is overall a good thing IMO.

Don't disagree that people should be more accepting of people, in general. That being said, I am strongly opposed to permanent medical alterations on minors.
I know you are, and frankly I’m not comfortable with that either.

But I’m even less comfortable, both in this case and abortion, with government deciding personal medical decisions. I come down the way I do on these issues not because I always necessarily agree with these choices, but because I don’t want the state to be involved with them.
 
I come down the way I do on these issues not because I always necessarily agree with these choices, but because I don’t want the state to be involved with them.

Oh my. Something we can agree upon. Of course, that only works in theory due to divorce and custody. At some point, the state will be weighing in and it will determine how we approach trans medical care. The government will be involved.
 
So regarding the story. A trans student is harrassed and bullied by the the girls volleyball team. They’re suspended from using the locker room. This causes an uproar among the usual suspects who seem to regard trans as a threat to our culture.

This whole story is ugly. As I’ve written before I’m not personally comfortable with trans students who are or were biologically male competing in girls sports because of the obvious physical advantages. But nobody should be happy with bullying, with kids being ostracized. This is the sort of thing that leads to so many of these kids committing suicide.

As a society we need to be more accepting of trans not less. That’s one of many reasons why the woke movement is overall a good thing IMO.

Don't disagree that people should be more accepting of people, in general. That being said, I am strongly opposed to permanent medical alterations on minors.
I know you are, and frankly I’m not comfortable with that either.

But I’m even less comfortable, both in this case and abortion, with government deciding personal medical decisions. I come down the way I do on these issues not because I always necessarily agree with these choices, but because I don’t want the state to be involved with them.

I don't want the government to decide personal medical decisions either, the difference with abortion is the medical decision is the termination of a life. I have to draw the line there and act in loco parentis to protect the life of the unborn child. [Also, I don't want to derail this thread with abortion discussion, there is another thread to do that]
 
So regarding the story. A trans student is harrassed and bullied by the the girls volleyball team. They’re suspended from using the locker room. This causes an uproar among the usual suspects who seem to regard trans as a threat to our culture.

This whole story is ugly. As I’ve written before I’m not personally comfortable with trans students who are or were biologically male competing in girls sports because of the obvious physical advantages. But nobody should be happy with bullying, with kids being ostracized. This is the sort of thing that leads to so many of these kids committing suicide.

As a society we need to be more accepting of trans not less. That’s one of many reasons why the woke movement is overall a good thing IMO.
The accusation of bullying wasn't until after the fact. And saying you don't want a wang in your face isn't bullying.
 
So regarding the story. A trans student is harrassed and bullied by the the girls volleyball team. They’re suspended from using the locker room. This causes an uproar among the usual suspects who seem to regard trans as a threat to our culture.

This whole story is ugly. As I’ve written before I’m not personally comfortable with trans students who are or were biologically male competing in girls sports because of the obvious physical advantages. But nobody should be happy with bullying, with kids being ostracized. This is the sort of thing that leads to so many of these kids committing suicide.

As a society we need to be more accepting of trans not less. That’s one of many reasons why the woke movement is overall a good thing IMO.

So, the usual suspects twist the story to fit the Official Narrative of the Day™ and completely disregard the context. The CONTEXT is that this male not only had his penis out IN the damn GIRLS locker room, but also said inappropriate things to the girls in the locker room.

So it appears the transgender student started this nonsense but in the rush to prove how virtuous they are, the usual suspects need to use pretzel logic and false claims to get as many virtues as possible and prove their loyalty.
 
Vermont male forces school district to close girls locker room.

:mellow:

This thread is about Loudoun County which is in Virginia.

Why are you posting something about a Vermont school district?
This is a really dumb question.

No it is a perfectly valid question to ask why anyone would post in a thread about a Viriginia school district what some unrelated Vermont male did. Is there some connection here between the two?
Stop trolling.

I am not trolling. You posted in the wrong thread IMO. The thread title should be changed if this is not about the loundoun county rape case (it clearly says AND the loudoun county rape case)
You need to stop harassing people like this. You are not the hall monitor, forum cop or employed by FBGs.
 
Vermont male forces school district to close girls locker room.

:mellow:

This thread is about Loudoun County which is in Virginia.

Why are you posting something about a Vermont school district?
This is a really dumb question.

No it is a perfectly valid question to ask why anyone would post in a thread about a Viriginia school district what some unrelated Vermont male did. Is there some connection here between the two?
Stop trolling.

I am not trolling. You posted in the wrong thread IMO. The thread title should be changed if this is not about the loundoun county rape case (it clearly says AND the loudoun county rape case)
You need to stop harassing people like this. You are not the hall monitor, forum cop or employed by FBGs.
He's just deflecting from the real story because it doesn't fit his narrative. Classic trolling
 

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