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Rivers to the NYJ for the #4 pick? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter azcards33
- Start date
I didn't say he sucked. I'm saying he's not worth 2 firsts and another anymore. Besides, it was Eli that was worth the two firsts (Rivers, plus last years #1), not the other way. All SD gave for Rivers was Eli. They got Rivers, another 1st, and a late pick. None the less. Rivers was taken, because Brees was supposedly so bad. Maybe if SD takes Robert Gallery there, or Roy Williams, they're a better team today?Yeah, the fact that he couldn't beat out the incumbent QB in his 2 Pro Bowl seasons means he must suck.
Nothing like using a one game sample. And if memory serves, it was in bad weather conditions.
Bottom line, I don't think Rivers is worth a first rounder anymore. His preseason play, or his sub play, has done nothing to justify it. Two years removed, I still believe he was the 3rd or 4th best QB in that draft class. Big Ben #1, Eli #2, and Then Rivers.
So you think Drew Brees is as good as Joe Montana? I like Brees, and he's been really good, but Rivers was considered a blue-chip franchise QB, and that kind of player should have done enough to force his way onto the field. The fact that he hasn't doesn't mean he's a bad player, it just means that he's not worth a 4th overall pick anymore. He may wind up with a better career than Brees, but as of right now, you don't give up a top-5 pick for him.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
No, I'm saying Drew Brees was drafted higher than Joe Montana and if you are going to knock somebody for sitting behind a 2nd round draft pick then I guess you should knock another guy for sitting behind a guy drafted even later. I wouldn't do either, because it's pretty silly imo to knock anyone for not taking over for a pro-bowl QB in their prime but that's just my opinion.If Ben Roethlisberger had been traded to SD for Eli instead of Rivers then big Ben wouldn't have gotten any playing time either. So you'd be saying Roethlisberger wasn't worth a top 5 pick? He wouldn't be worth a top 5 pick today because there was a pro-bowler in front of him?
AnonymousBob
Footballguy
If he's this good after sitting for two years, just imagine how great he'll become after warming his rear for another five!!
What I'm saying is that you make judgments of value based upon risk, not on trying to have perfect foresight. If Big Ben had been traded to SD, he might have beat out Brees for the starting job. That's sort of my point - a great player forces his way onto the field by simply being too good not to start. I also don't consider Brees to be in his prime - let's remember, the guy has what, fiver years of NFL experience and two good years so far? Yes, he has had s bit of success, but let's not go crazy and call him a Pro-Bowl QB in his prime. Let's reserve that for guys like Peyton Manning and Donovan McNabb.Rivers has more risk - he hasn't forced his way onto the field. He hasn't looked good in limited action. He has all of 30 passes in live action in the past two years.
Let me put it this way. Chad Pennington sat for the 2000 and 2001 seasons after begin drafted 18th overall. He was considered to be a steal at that slot, after something 7 QBs went in the first round the previous year. At the opening of the 2002 season, was he worth an 18th overall pick? I don't think anybody would have paid it. Of course, he went on to lead the NFL in passer rating in 2002, won the AFC East, and shut out Indianapolis in the playoffs, so he may have been worth the pick, but that's hindsight cherry-picking. For every guy like Pennington there's a Brock Huard or somesuch.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
I disagree with most of this.Brees is younger than the average pro-bowl qb. I'd assume this would qualify as "in his prime". QB's prime is older than most other positions.
Since Rivers(or Ben for that matter) have been in the league Brees has been to the pro-bowl, put up qb ratings of 105 and 90 and passed for 51TD/22INT while leading his team to one division title and being in the playoff hunt until week 15.
There is NO way Rivers/Ben/Joe Montana are going to "force their way onto the field" if they guy in front of them is playing like that and the team is in playoff contention. No way. Maybe if the guy is a the #1 pick and considered the savior of the franchise like Peyton. Even then, very few coaches would make a switch while their starting qb has them in first place and has a 105 qb rating while doing it.
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cstu
Footballguy
Any talk of Rivers not "forcing his way onto the field" shows absolute lack of knowledge of the Chargers situation. Rivers held out his rookie year and didn't get signed in time to compete for the starting job. Brees started winning right off the bat and lead the team to 12-4 (their best season since 1979). Last year Brees was handed the starting job after being in the Pro Bowl and there was no way Rivers could win the starting job.
Let me put it this way then. If Rivers is worth so little to the chargers that they can spend a 4th overall only to deny him the chance to show what he's worth... well then he's just not worth so much to them, and his value goes DOWN. It doesn't matter why he hasn't gotten a chance to play - it really doesn't. What matters is that everyone in the league knows that they have this valuable asset sitting on the bench, and he's not liekly to ever get off of it. It's a ticking timebomb - Rivers has one more year of riding the bench and seeing what happens before he gets pissed off and demands a trade. And once that happens, your leverage disappears entirely. SD has pressure to trade him, and in a draft in which there are two top-3 QBs and another QB who is looking like a top-10, it's going to be near impossible to get a top pick for Rivers. I suspect that it would be very difficult for SD to justify trading Rivers for less than his draft position too, which is why trading him for a franchise tag player is so appealing. You avoid the direct comparison, get a good player, and walk into next year with an amazing cap situation.
This is incorrect, but it's not worth arguing about since Rivers will not be traded.
brednbuddah
Footballguy
I don't see how that was a good posting.how about this? This is incorrect, SD is not going to trade Rivers and risk leaving their playoff contending team in the hands of AJ Feely with Brees' shoulder still in question.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
You think SD would be in a better cap situation next year if they traded Rivers to NY for Abraham? I just want to make sure I am understanding your post correctly.
If SD trades Rivers, they take a cap hit this year on the trade, and then they have to sign Abraham to a big contract and give him a big bonus. Kearse got 8 years, $66 million, with $16 million guaranteed. Let's assume Abraham's looking for $20 million guaranteed. I bet he can get an 8 year $70 million deal with $20 mill guaranteed in the first three years. The back 4 years contain the silly $12-$13 million salaries he'll never see. The first years will be close to mimum salary. $2.5 million is the amoritzation of the signing bonus, plus the salary means that his yearly cap charge should be about $3 million. Assuming you have the $20 million in cash, the $3 million is not too much cap room to spend on a premier pass rushing DE. With Rivers and his $62 million contract off the books, yes, I'd say the Chargers cap will be in better shape. They'll be spending reasonable cap space on a proven starter instead of having an unproven backup eating away at their cap.
I mean that Brees isn't in his prime b/c he's less experienced than a QB in his prime. He's had two good seasons, true, but let's not annoint him the next Joe Montana, or assume that nobody could have unseated him. Sure, Rivers held out, but so did Leftwich, and he found his way into the lineup his rookie year.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Nobody has annointed him the next Joe Montana. They've only compared his draft position to that of Joe Montana.Who did Leftwich beat out at QB his rookie year?
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Ok, just wanted to make sure that was your stance.
Rivers counts like $3 million against the cap for the next few years if he's not traded. Getting him "off the books" is stupid from a cap perspective.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Z thinks SD would be in a better cap sitation by trading Rivers for Abraham and I do not. By Z's own math Abraham is going to want $20mil guaranteed in the first three years. I was just going to let it rest. I think more people would agree with me than Z in this instance.
Kevin Acee
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER REPORTS, The Chargers have made their initial offer for a long-term contract to quarterback Drew Brees' agent, General Manager A.J. Smith confirmed yesterday.
The team has yet to hear back from Tom Condon regarding the proposal, which was sent Monday.
“I have no idea where it goes from here,” Smith said.
Condon declined comment.
While no hard deadline is imminent, the Chargers and Brees likely have just a week's window remaining to reach a deal.
Smith, who has been a man of his word so far as general manager, has said the team will decide whether to designate Brees a franchise or transition player a week before the Feb. 23 deadline to do so.
It is almost certain that if no deal is reached in the interim, the Chargers will designate Brees a franchise or transition player so they do not risk losing him without compensation or a chance to match a competing offer.
Brees would become an unrestricted free agent if he is not designated one or the other.
OK NOW my attention is on Rivers to the JETS for Johnny A. If they are proposing contracts, they must be comfortable with his shoulder.
As a JETS Fan, I would be thrilled with this move.
Pennington BTW would NOT be cut. His salary next year is in the range of 10M and his cap hit would be 12M(sorry if those numbers aren't exactly right, but are close)
There really is no reason to cut Chad because next year represents the bulk of the contract extension he signed, and the difference of keeping or cutting is not great enough to justify it.
Also, why not give Chad another year to get healthy and show he can play, then trade him for some value later.
Here's to Rivers for Abraham and drafting Lendale White or D'Brickshaw.
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER REPORTS, The Chargers have made their initial offer for a long-term contract to quarterback Drew Brees' agent, General Manager A.J. Smith confirmed yesterday.
The team has yet to hear back from Tom Condon regarding the proposal, which was sent Monday.
“I have no idea where it goes from here,” Smith said.
Condon declined comment.
While no hard deadline is imminent, the Chargers and Brees likely have just a week's window remaining to reach a deal.
Smith, who has been a man of his word so far as general manager, has said the team will decide whether to designate Brees a franchise or transition player a week before the Feb. 23 deadline to do so.
It is almost certain that if no deal is reached in the interim, the Chargers will designate Brees a franchise or transition player so they do not risk losing him without compensation or a chance to match a competing offer.
Brees would become an unrestricted free agent if he is not designated one or the other.
OK NOW my attention is on Rivers to the JETS for Johnny A. If they are proposing contracts, they must be comfortable with his shoulder.
As a JETS Fan, I would be thrilled with this move.
Pennington BTW would NOT be cut. His salary next year is in the range of 10M and his cap hit would be 12M(sorry if those numbers aren't exactly right, but are close)
There really is no reason to cut Chad because next year represents the bulk of the contract extension he signed, and the difference of keeping or cutting is not great enough to justify it.
Also, why not give Chad another year to get healthy and show he can play, then trade him for some value later.
Here's to Rivers for Abraham and drafting Lendale White or D'Brickshaw.
I know. I just don't see any possible reason for thinking that either trading Rivers or trading for Abraham would help the Chargers' cap situation, never mind doing both.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
In one sentence you say that SD wouldn't be offereing Brees a contract if they weren't comfortable with shoulder. A few sentences later you also argue that NY shouldn't cut Chad because the salary cap implications of getting rid of Chad would be minimal even if he is hurt and NY should just hold on to him, give him time to heal and build his trade value back up.One question: Why wouldn't SD do the same thing and just keep both QB's?
Because they have a starter in with value and Pro Bowl credentials. The Jets do not. They have a TWO time shoulder injury QB who is attempting to be the first ever to come back from it. Big difference.Also, just a heads up. Abraham is a damn fine football player. And you can only start one QB at a time. Igor Olshansky is not the answer at end for the Chargers.
I said to hold onto Chad and build his value, if the Jets are ready to trade a stud DE for a QB who has not played(even a QB drafted 4th) how much better is Rivers value sitting behind Brees? Not much.
Chads value improves if he can prove he's health. Big Big difference.
I am a fan of the move from a Jets perspective. You as a Bolts guy don't sound as enthused.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
I'd be much more enthused if you had a shut-down corner or franchise OT. SD's pass rush was fine last year from the OLB's and they are young so it's not a huge area of need imo.
Olshansky and Castillo both had fantastic years at DE. Abraham wouldn't be a DE anyway, though. He'd compete with Merriman, Foley, Phillips, etc.
The Chargers aren't going to trade Rivers. But if they did trade him, it wouldn't be for Abraham. (It'd be for Ed Reed.
)
The Chargers aren't going to trade Rivers. But if they did trade him, it wouldn't be for Abraham. (It'd be for Ed Reed.
)
Shrek
Having a great season
As a Jets fan, all I can say is I think they should get something, anything, for Abraham while they still can. Otherwise, teams might quit concentrating so much on his physical talent and "potential" and remember that he has a history of holding his own interests above that of his team, including during the playoffs. He is the type that will get his big payday, then will sit back and take it easy. Sorry, but as talented as he was for the first few years at the Jets, I am much less impressed with him in the last few years. He's only completed 3 full seasons out of 6. He was on the field for 3/4 of every game with the rest of the Jets D this year and could still only manage his 3rd best year as far as tackles. He has 5 pass deflections recorded for his entire career. I am not saying he isn't a good player. It's obvious that he can be, and has been at times. I'm just not convinced he has his best football in front of him. If the Jets got Rivers for him I think New York gets the better end of the deal.
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