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Ryan Mathews & Mike Tolbert, RBs, San Diego Chargers (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Jason Wood
- Start date
NajehHejan
Footballguy
It's gonna be fun seeing how this plays out.
If Mathews doesn't take the bull by the horns early on, he will be mired in a messy RBBC for sure. The schedule, aside from week 2, is in his favor for a solid start leading up to the week 6 bye. 1) Home vs. Vikings (no Williams) 2) At Patriots 3) Home vs. Chiefs 4) Home vs. Dolphins 5) At Broncos
Sproles had 59 receptions last year, fifth best for RB's. I just can't imagine Tolbert getting anywhere near those number of catches, even if Mathews never smells the field on 3rd down all year due to poor pass protection. If Mathews can't get 3rd down work, he will then need to instill confidence in the coaches that he can be effective in goal line work.
Turner/Greene/Mendenhall/Blount are valuable in PPR without many receptions because of number of carries and TD opportunities, but have RB's ever been successful without 3rd down work AND without GL work? I guess Peterson had success when Chili refused to use AP on 3rd downs and even pulled him occassionally at the stripe for Chester Taylor. CJ was wildly successful in his 1st year with minimal receptions and Lendale White vulturing touchdowns. But do these analogies work here with Mathews? Aside from the 1st round draft pick pedigree, does anyone put Mathews on par with AP and/or CJ?
I think the front office and coaches want Mathews to be "the man". Whether or not he can live up to that remains to be seen. Was the conditioning controversy overblown, or a red flag? We'll see.
If Mathews doesn't take the bull by the horns early on, he will be mired in a messy RBBC for sure. The schedule, aside from week 2, is in his favor for a solid start leading up to the week 6 bye. 1) Home vs. Vikings (no Williams) 2) At Patriots 3) Home vs. Chiefs 4) Home vs. Dolphins 5) At Broncos
Sproles had 59 receptions last year, fifth best for RB's. I just can't imagine Tolbert getting anywhere near those number of catches, even if Mathews never smells the field on 3rd down all year due to poor pass protection. If Mathews can't get 3rd down work, he will then need to instill confidence in the coaches that he can be effective in goal line work.
Turner/Greene/Mendenhall/Blount are valuable in PPR without many receptions because of number of carries and TD opportunities, but have RB's ever been successful without 3rd down work AND without GL work? I guess Peterson had success when Chili refused to use AP on 3rd downs and even pulled him occassionally at the stripe for Chester Taylor. CJ was wildly successful in his 1st year with minimal receptions and Lendale White vulturing touchdowns. But do these analogies work here with Mathews? Aside from the 1st round draft pick pedigree, does anyone put Mathews on par with AP and/or CJ?
I think the front office and coaches want Mathews to be "the man". Whether or not he can live up to that remains to be seen. Was the conditioning controversy overblown, or a red flag? We'll see.
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I didn't draft Mathews in any of my leagues last year.
This year, I got Mathews in 75% of my leagues, and Tolbert in 50%. I think they're both good values at their average draft positions. I think the Chargers will get back to playing good defense and featuring the running game as they won't have to play from behind as often this season.
Conversely, I didn't get Rivers, V.Jax, or Gates in any of my leagues this season. I think they'll all be every-week fantasy starters, but I don't think any of them are severely undervalued. I expect a higher run-pass ratio this season; and with fewer pass attempts will come fewer passing & receiving yards and TDs.
This year, I got Mathews in 75% of my leagues, and Tolbert in 50%. I think they're both good values at their average draft positions. I think the Chargers will get back to playing good defense and featuring the running game as they won't have to play from behind as often this season.
Conversely, I didn't get Rivers, V.Jax, or Gates in any of my leagues this season. I think they'll all be every-week fantasy starters, but I don't think any of them are severely undervalued. I expect a higher run-pass ratio this season; and with fewer pass attempts will come fewer passing & receiving yards and TDs.
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Mr Rodgers neighborhood
Footballguy
I've got a feeling that Mathews got extra work due to missing time early on in camp. Norv is gushing over him. He's going to get his. Top 15 this year. Top 10 in 2012.
NeverEnough
Footballguy
Apparently, Tolbert's value is zero. I just got offered Forsett & Sanders (WR PIT) for Tolbert in dynasty. I also own Matthews. Even if I didn't own Matthews, I would not do that deal.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
From a roster composition perspective, the Chargers only have 4 running backs on the 53 man roster: Matthews, Tolbert, Todman and Hester (FB). They have one RB on the practice squad: Summers, a rookie FB. On the one hand, less mouths to feed, on the other it becomes more critical to keep these guys fresh and healthy so the touches may be more evenly distributed. Or maybe Matthews just gets most of the touches. It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out, but I'm thinking Todman might actually have a game or two worth using for FF purposes.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
Sensible post Maurile. I also have Mathews in 75% of my leagues, but could only grab Tolbert in one. Tolbert always seemed to get snatched just as he was becoming value. I think there are a lot of drafters this year that specifically targeted Tolbert with the assumption that Mathews will go down. They look at him as "good" value late in a draft, but "super" value if Mathews gets injured. Overall, I see a lot of value for SD running backs. Sproles is gone. The Chargers are going to come out swinging early this year. If they do as well as I think they will do in their division, the run/pass ratio will change. Norv Turner once said “We want to run the ball. You want to be a team that, in the fourth quarter, goes out and runs the ball when they know you’re going to run the ball. And we’re going to be capable of doing that.”
I would really like to see Mathews come out of the gate kicking butt. It will be a shame if he does sustain a major injury. I really want to see how the reps play out with both backs healthy. If Mathews stays healthy, there will be no doubters in 2012.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
Bloom has man love for Tolbert.Sigmund's week 1 rankings... Mathews 30 & Tolbert 15
Both backs should have a good week 1.Iirc the chargers last year had one of the top offenses. Some are saying that they might run it more this year. If they had a good scheme last year why change that? Also iirc the special teams unit screwed this team a few games. So i ask why wont turner let rivers loose again? And if he does who benefits more tolbert or mathews?
Scrappy Doo
Footballguy
In regards to Mathews showing flashes, it wasn't just preseason or week 4 of preseason - it was the last couple of games form last season. He finished very strong.
I had Tolert last year off the ww. I wasn't burned by drafting Mathews early.
This year, I was just keeping an eye on Mathews b/c I though he could be good value. I ended up getting him in round 5 of my 12 teamer and I'm loving his value there.
Tolbert will steal the GL and sure, Tolbert is a tough runner......but......he just doesn't have the home run speed that Mathews has.
Tobert will probably be like the 2011 Thomas Jones while Mathews could have upside to 2011 Jamaal Charles. IF MATHEWS CAN STAY HEALTHY.
I had Tolert last year off the ww. I wasn't burned by drafting Mathews early.
This year, I was just keeping an eye on Mathews b/c I though he could be good value. I ended up getting him in round 5 of my 12 teamer and I'm loving his value there.
Tolbert will steal the GL and sure, Tolbert is a tough runner......but......he just doesn't have the home run speed that Mathews has.
Tobert will probably be like the 2011 Thomas Jones while Mathews could have upside to 2011 Jamaal Charles. IF MATHEWS CAN STAY HEALTHY.
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FavreAndAwayAnIdiot
Footballguy
Will be interesting to see if this thread is closed as mine was.
You came across as venting. There is a venting thread and they tend to crack down pretty hard on that early in the year. It's just trying to keep the clutter down.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Matthews with more rushing and receiving yards....Tolbert with more receptions and TDs.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Nobody would complain about a 15 point day (PPR) from Mathews if Tolbert didn't, you know... HAVE 3 TOUCHDOWNS.
Number of games Tolbert will have 3 TDs the rest of the year: zero.
Number of games Tolbert will have 3 TDs the rest of the year: zero.
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Dought Man
Footballguy
I have a feeling this trend will continue. Teams will stay back in that shell and force Rivers to take all the underneath stuff. Tolbert is in for just a monster monster year, relative to is ADP. Mathews looked good as well, but clearly, in the red zone...they only have one running back, Mr Tolbert (barring injury).
I think the point is that Tolbert isn't going away (unless this injury keeps him out) - he was very involved today and was effective, and he's got a knack for the end zone. That caps Matthews' value because it is a true RBBC.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
If Mathews owners want to rationalize that 15 point days are just swell, hey that's cool. But if you can't see the back to own is Tolbert, regardless of whether he again scores 3 TD's in a game, then the observation is deluded. No one is going to repeat a 3 TD performance in one season (at least no one would put money on it happening).
Not going out of my way to trash Mathews or anything, but Tolbert is a force. No one will care that he was taken in the 10th round and Mathews in the 4th round. It's all about the results.
Not going out of my way to trash Mathews or anything, but Tolbert is a force. No one will care that he was taken in the 10th round and Mathews in the 4th round. It's all about the results.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Who thought he was going to go away? Mathews didn't get drafted as high as many other RBs because of the 2-headed monster.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Any details?
Have a bad feeling this is going to be a nightmare to figure out this year. Great game for Tolbert but you have to think VJ and Gates will be more involved in the redzone at some point. I'm also not convinced he is going to get that many receptions again. My guess is that the game plan of Min must have allowed checkdowns to the RB. It does appear though that matthews is going to have to get his TDs from long runs.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
good call Groovus
FavreAndAwayAnIdiot
Footballguy
I'm inclined to agree with this as an owner of both. Tolbert was in far more than red-zone situations, thus his opportunity is much more than originally believed. Second, it seems they trust him in the passing game as much as Gates-- so his PPR value is higher than expected now. Finally, Matthews was used primarily on RB 'gadget' plays (draws, swing-outs, etc), and he was pulled when any kind of critical yardage and blocking was needed.Mathews will have a decent stat line, but will tank more often than not week-to-week. Tolbert seems to be the consistent producer, even though obviously he'll never have another 3 TD game, and is the guy I want in my lineup now.
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PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
I'm sure they went to the RBs so often because they liked the match-up with the Minn LBers. I don't think you can expect Tolbert and Matthews to combine for 12 catches/wk.
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FavreAndAwayAnIdiot
Footballguy
Well he's a hold until you know the injury status.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Can't find anything beyond this so far:
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Seemed like they were looking at his knee on the table. I'd imagine there's an MRI in Tolbert's future.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Hmmm. Rotoworld says "lower leg injury"...
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
NBC just said that Tolbert's knee is not believed to be serious and he wasn't limping in the locker room.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Guy on NBC just said knee, Tolbert was walking on it after the game, it's sore, he's not limping, they don't think it's serious right now.Hmmm. Rotoworld says "lower leg injury"...
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
I don't disagree with this, for the record. I just don't think Mathews owners have anything to panic about. Let's see how it shakes out going forward.
If you drafted Mathews with the assumption he would be the workhorse then I'd say its panic time. He's a great RB3 though
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
He got drafted long after all the "workhorses" were off the board.
Tau837
Footballguy
It's funny how people can watch the same game and have totally different conclusions.
IMO, Mathews looked better. He had 3 20+ yard plays; Tolbert had none. Mathews had 5 plays of 10+ yards in 15 touches; Tolbert had 4 in 21 touches. You can't teach explosiveness.
As would be expected after saying that, the numbers favor Mathews:
Mathews 12/45 rushing and 3/73 receiving
Tolbert 12/35 rushing and 9/58 receiving
Tolbert had 3 TDs, but IMO that has to do with how they were used situationally. I'm sure Tolbert will continue to have a significant role all season provided he stays healthy, but if they both play like they did today, IMO Mathews is going to claim a bigger role, including touches in the red zone.
IMO, Mathews looked better. He had 3 20+ yard plays; Tolbert had none. Mathews had 5 plays of 10+ yards in 15 touches; Tolbert had 4 in 21 touches. You can't teach explosiveness.
As would be expected after saying that, the numbers favor Mathews:
Mathews 12/45 rushing and 3/73 receiving
Tolbert 12/35 rushing and 9/58 receiving
Tolbert had 3 TDs, but IMO that has to do with how they were used situationally. I'm sure Tolbert will continue to have a significant role all season provided he stays healthy, but if they both play like they did today, IMO Mathews is going to claim a bigger role, including touches in the red zone.
Mash
Footballguy
I'm curious as to what you saw that would indicate Mathews will take RZ touches? Tolbert was extremely effective today, and has 14 TDs in the past 16 games. Looking at this objectively, it appears to me that Norm is intent on using Tolbert at the GL.It's funny how people can watch the same game and have totally different conclusions.IMO, Mathews looked better. He had 3 20+ yard plays; Tolbert had none. Mathews had 5 plays of 10+ yards in 15 touches; Tolbert had 4 in 21 touches. You can't teach explosiveness.
Tau837
Footballguy
Maybe my post wasn't clear. I think Tolbert played well today. I think Mathews played better. If Mathews continues to play better, it stands to reason he will get more touches, including more red zone touches.I'm curious as to what you saw that would indicate Mathews will take RZ touches? Tolbert was extremely effective today, and has 14 TDs in the past 16 games. Looking at this objectively, it appears to me that Norm is intent on using Tolbert at the GL.It's funny how people can watch the same game and have totally different conclusions.IMO, Mathews looked better. He had 3 20+ yard plays; Tolbert had none. Mathews had 5 plays of 10+ yards in 15 touches; Tolbert had 4 in 21 touches. You can't teach explosiveness.
If if if..listen man tolbert is the goaline back. He showed how effective he was last season and in game 1 today. I know you own Matthews but you have to be more objective hereMaybe my post wasn't clear. I think Tolbert played well today. I think Mathews played better. If Mathews continues to play better, it stands to reason he will get more touches, including more red zone touches.I'm curious as to what you saw that would indicate Mathews will take RZ touches? Tolbert was extremely effective today, and has 14 TDs in the past 16 games. Looking at this objectively, it appears to me that Norm is intent on using Tolbert at the GL.It's funny how people can watch the same game and have totally different conclusions.IMO, Mathews looked better. He had 3 20+ yard plays; Tolbert had none. Mathews had 5 plays of 10+ yards in 15 touches; Tolbert had 4 in 21 touches. You can't teach explosiveness.
Mash
Footballguy
Your post was clear. I'm saying there is absolutely nothing I saw that supports your statement about RZ touches. Tolbert had EVERY touch inside the 10 today.Maybe my post wasn't clear. I think Tolbert played well today. I think Mathews played better. If Mathews continues to play better, it stands to reason he will get more touches, including more red zone touches.I'm curious as to what you saw that would indicate Mathews will take RZ touches? Tolbert was extremely effective today, and has 14 TDs in the past 16 games. Looking at this objectively, it appears to me that Norm is intent on using Tolbert at the GL.It's funny how people can watch the same game and have totally different conclusions.IMO, Mathews looked better. He had 3 20+ yard plays; Tolbert had none. Mathews had 5 plays of 10+ yards in 15 touches; Tolbert had 4 in 21 touches. You can't teach explosiveness.
Tau837
Footballguy
I own both Mathews and Tolbert. Calling it like I see it. Notice that I didn't say Mathews will take over as goal line back. I said he will get more touches, including more red zone touches, going forward. Do you understand that those are different statements?If if if..listen man tolbert is the goaline back. He showed how effective he was last season and in game 1 today. I know you own Matthews but you have to be more objective hereMaybe my post wasn't clear. I think Tolbert played well today. I think Mathews played better. If Mathews continues to play better, it stands to reason he will get more touches, including more red zone touches.I'm curious as to what you saw that would indicate Mathews will take RZ touches? Tolbert was extremely effective today, and has 14 TDs in the past 16 games. Looking at this objectively, it appears to me that Norm is intent on using Tolbert at the GL.It's funny how people can watch the same game and have totally different conclusions.IMO, Mathews looked better. He had 3 20+ yard plays; Tolbert had none. Mathews had 5 plays of 10+ yards in 15 touches; Tolbert had 4 in 21 touches. You can't teach explosiveness.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Wishful thinking, IMHO. I'll defer to your Chargers expertise, so correct the following statements if they're inaccurate:- Tolbert had an outstanding 3rd & short conversion rate last year.- Tolbert is better in pass pro. - Tolbert isn't prone to fumbling, as Mathews may be. - As such, Norv surely "trusts" Tolbert more in key spots. What more key spot is there than inside the plus-20?I don't see how or why the roles would change, no matter how well Mathews runs between the 20s. I hope I'm wrong.Maybe my post wasn't clear. I think Tolbert played well today. I think Mathews played better. If Mathews continues to play better, it stands to reason he will get more touches, including more red zone touches.I'm curious as to what you saw that would indicate Mathews will take RZ touches? Tolbert was extremely effective today, and has 14 TDs in the past 16 games. Looking at this objectively, it appears to me that Norm is intent on using Tolbert at the GL.It's funny how people can watch the same game and have totally different conclusions.IMO, Mathews looked better. He had 3 20+ yard plays; Tolbert had none. Mathews had 5 plays of 10+ yards in 15 touches; Tolbert had 4 in 21 touches. You can't teach explosiveness.
Tau837
Footballguy
Yes, I'm talking about the remaining 15 games, not today's game. Do you think Toblert will get EVERY touch inside the 10 for the rest of the season?Your post was clear. I'm saying there is absolutely nothing I saw that supports your statement about RZ touches. Tolbert had EVERY touch inside the 10 today.Maybe my post wasn't clear. I think Tolbert played well today. I think Mathews played better. If Mathews continues to play better, it stands to reason he will get more touches, including more red zone touches.I'm curious as to what you saw that would indicate Mathews will take RZ touches? Tolbert was extremely effective today, and has 14 TDs in the past 16 games. Looking at this objectively, it appears to me that Norm is intent on using Tolbert at the GL.It's funny how people can watch the same game and have totally different conclusions.IMO, Mathews looked better. He had 3 20+ yard plays; Tolbert had none. Mathews had 5 plays of 10+ yards in 15 touches; Tolbert had 4 in 21 touches. You can't teach explosiveness.
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