Ryan Mathews & Mike Tolbert, RBs, San Diego Chargers (1 Viewer)

[Raiderfan32904]

I didn't watch he game, but for a few plays on the Red Zone channel. Others in this thread indicate Mathews was used in gimmick plays and COP type runs. He may have done well in those particular plays, but there is no corrlation for that type of success, and the GL looks that Tolbert got both running and catching. Norv has displayed his blueprint. From what it looked like today, it seems that Mathews is the 'between the twenties' situational running back, and Tolbert is the 'man' at the goal line. Mathews impressive yards per carry doesn't lead to any indicator that he will eat into Tolbert's role imo.

Tolbert is the man Norv Turner trusts near the GL, why would he change his plan? To appease a lot of angry fantasy football fans? That type of 'gut feel' based on stats and not situation is delusional.

 

[Mash]

It's funny how people can watch the same game and have totally different conclusions.IMO, Mathews looked better. He had 3 20+ yard plays; Tolbert had none. Mathews had 5 plays of 10+ yards in 15 touches; Tolbert had 4 in 21 touches. You can't teach explosiveness. As would be expected after saying that, the numbers favor Mathews:Mathews 12/45 rushing and 3/73 receivingTolbert 12/35 rushing and 9/58 receivingTolbert had 3 TDs, but IMO that has to do with how they were used situationally. I'm sure Tolbert will continue to have a significant role all season provided he stays healthy, but if they both play like they did today, IMO Mathews is going to claim a bigger role, including touches in the red zone.

I'm curious as to what you saw that would indicate Mathews will take RZ touches? Tolbert was extremely effective today, and has 14 TDs in the past 16 games. Looking at this objectively, it appears to me that Norm is intent on using Tolbert at the GL.

Maybe my post wasn't clear. I think Tolbert played well today. I think Mathews played better. If Mathews continues to play better, it stands to reason he will get more touches, including more red zone touches.

Your post was clear. I'm saying there is absolutely nothing I saw that supports your statement about RZ touches. Tolbert had EVERY touch inside the 10 today.

Yes, I'm talking about the remaining 15 games, not today's game. Do you think Toblert will get EVERY touch inside the 10 for the rest of the season?

Edit to Add: Not all touches, but 80-90% of them inside the 10.

 

[lazyike]

It's funny how people can watch the same game and have totally different conclusions.IMO, Mathews looked better. He had 3 20+ yard plays; Tolbert had none. Mathews had 5 plays of 10+ yards in 15 touches; Tolbert had 4 in 21 touches. You can't teach explosiveness. As would be expected after saying that, the numbers favor Mathews:Mathews 12/45 rushing and 3/73 receivingTolbert 12/35 rushing and 9/58 receivingTolbert had 3 TDs, but IMO that has to do with how they were used situationally. I'm sure Tolbert will continue to have a significant role all season provided he stays healthy, but if they both play like they did today, IMO Mathews is going to claim a bigger role, including touches in the red zone.

Watched the whole game and I agree with this. Actually thought they should have tried to get more touches for Mathews-maybe its the fumbling concerns that he is being limited somewhat.

 

[Tau837]

It's funny how people can watch the same game and have totally different conclusions.IMO, Mathews looked better. He had 3 20+ yard plays; Tolbert had none. Mathews had 5 plays of 10+ yards in 15 touches; Tolbert had 4 in 21 touches. You can't teach explosiveness. As would be expected after saying that, the numbers favor Mathews:Mathews 12/45 rushing and 3/73 receivingTolbert 12/35 rushing and 9/58 receivingTolbert had 3 TDs, but IMO that has to do with how they were used situationally. I'm sure Tolbert will continue to have a significant role all season provided he stays healthy, but if they both play like they did today, IMO Mathews is going to claim a bigger role, including touches in the red zone.

I'm curious as to what you saw that would indicate Mathews will take RZ touches? Tolbert was extremely effective today, and has 14 TDs in the past 16 games. Looking at this objectively, it appears to me that Norm is intent on using Tolbert at the GL.

Maybe my post wasn't clear. I think Tolbert played well today. I think Mathews played better. If Mathews continues to play better, it stands to reason he will get more touches, including more red zone touches.

Your post was clear. I'm saying there is absolutely nothing I saw that supports your statement about RZ touches. Tolbert had EVERY touch inside the 10 today.

Yes, I'm talking about the remaining 15 games, not today's game. Do you think Toblert will get EVERY touch inside the 10 for the rest of the season?

Edit to Add: Not all touches, but 80-90% of them.

 

[ldizzle]

It's funny how people can watch the same game and have totally different conclusions.IMO, Mathews looked better. He had 3 20+ yard plays; Tolbert had none. Mathews had 5 plays of 10+ yards in 15 touches; Tolbert had 4 in 21 touches. You can't teach explosiveness. As would be expected after saying that, the numbers favor Mathews:Mathews 12/45 rushing and 3/73 receivingTolbert 12/35 rushing and 9/58 receivingTolbert had 3 TDs, but IMO that has to do with how they were used situationally. I'm sure Tolbert will continue to have a significant role all season provided he stays healthy, but if they both play like they did today, IMO Mathews is going to claim a bigger role, including touches in the red zone.

Pretty much this.

 

[Scrappy Doo]

I didn't watch he game, but for a few plays on the Red Zone channel. Others in this thread indicate Mathews was used in gimmick plays and COP type runs. He may have done well in those particular plays, but there is no corrlation for that type of success, and the GL looks that Tolbert got both running and catching. Norv has displayed his blueprint. From what it looked like today, it seems that Mathews is the 'between the twenties' situational running back, and Tolbert is the 'man' at the goal line. Mathews impressive yards per carry doesn't lead to any indicator that he will eat into Tolbert's role imo.Tolbert is the man Norv Turner trusts near the GL, why would he change his plan? To appease a lot of angry fantasy football fans? That type of 'gut feel' based on stats and not situation is delusional.

I watched the whole game - not sure where this "gimmick-plays-for-Mathews" stuff is coming from.They basically split RB duties with Tobert getting the GL and 3rd down duties thus giving him the better end of the split - especially in this game where SD just happened to be in the red zone a lot, and between the 20s - where it looks like Norv will use the more explosive Mathews more of the time - very little. Obviously, Tolbert had a huge game and looked great and so the owners who got him late are here to pat themselves on the back.But that doesn't mean Ryan Mathews looked bad or that he was a bad pick if you got him in the 5th round area. I think there's just a lot of Mathews hate out there from owners who got burned on him last year.Anyway, given the Tolbert injury - or at least injury scare - I think Norv will be careful not to overuse either guy. Which means Mathews can still be a low end RB2 given how good this offense is. Mathews probably won't have too many TDs - definitely no GL TDs as long as Tolbert is around - but he'll go over 100 total yards consistently. Both guys are

 

[VaTerp]

It's funny how people can watch the same game and have totally different conclusions.IMO, Mathews looked better. He had 3 20+ yard plays; Tolbert had none. Mathews had 5 plays of 10+ yards in 15 touches; Tolbert had 4 in 21 touches. You can't teach explosiveness. As would be expected after saying that, the numbers favor Mathews:Mathews 12/45 rushing and 3/73 receivingTolbert 12/35 rushing and 9/58 receivingTolbert had 3 TDs, but IMO that has to do with how they were used situationally. I'm sure Tolbert will continue to have a significant role all season provided he stays healthy, but if they both play like they did today, IMO Mathews is going to claim a bigger role, including touches in the red zone.

I'm curious as to what you saw that would indicate Mathews will take RZ touches? Tolbert was extremely effective today, and has 14 TDs in the past 16 games. Looking at this objectively, it appears to me that Norm is intent on using Tolbert at the GL.

Maybe my post wasn't clear. I think Tolbert played well today. I think Mathews played better. If Mathews continues to play better, it stands to reason he will get more touches, including more red zone touches.

Your post was clear. I'm saying there is absolutely nothing I saw that supports your statement about RZ touches. Tolbert had EVERY touch inside the 10 today.

Yes, I'm talking about the remaining 15 games, not today's game. Do you think Toblert will get EVERY touch inside the 10 for the rest of the season?

As a Tolbert owner I tend to agree with JWB. Mathews is clearly a MUCH more explosive runner and he has the size that you would think will make him effective in short yardage as well.As Mathews gets better and earns Norv's trust I can see him getting more opportunities in all situations. Tolbert produces in his role but Mathews can get better at everything Tolbert does. There is nothing Tolbert can do to become more explosive.I think Tolbert is a good flex play now but there will be games where he doesnt find the endzone or get as many catches and his value then becomes limited b/c he will never be a big yardage guy. And any time he misses to injury just gives Mathews more time in practice to earn the coaching staff's trust.If healthy Tolbert will have value all season as the GL back in a productive offense but he will be a guy I look to move as I anticipate Mathews eating into his production sooner rather than later.

 

[craxie]

could be a good test for Mathews next week . . .

 

[tommyGunZ]

It's funny how people can watch the same game and have totally different conclusions.IMO, Mathews looked better. He had 3 20+ yard plays; Tolbert had none. Mathews had 5 plays of 10+ yards in 15 touches; Tolbert had 4 in 21 touches. You can't teach explosiveness. As would be expected after saying that, the numbers favor Mathews:Mathews 12/45 rushing and 3/73 receivingTolbert 12/35 rushing and 9/58 receivingTolbert had 3 TDs, but IMO that has to do with how they were used situationally. I'm sure Tolbert will continue to have a significant role all season provided he stays healthy, but if they both play like they did today, IMO Mathews is going to claim a bigger role, including touches in the red zone.

I'm curious as to what you saw that would indicate Mathews will take RZ touches? Tolbert was extremely effective today, and has 14 TDs in the past 16 games. Looking at this objectively, it appears to me that Norm is intent on using Tolbert at the GL.

Maybe my post wasn't clear. I think Tolbert played well today. I think Mathews played better. If Mathews continues to play better, it stands to reason he will get more touches, including more red zone touches.

Wishful thinking, IMHO. I'll defer to your Chargers expertise, so correct the following statements if they're inaccurate:- Tolbert had an outstanding 3rd & short conversion rate last year.- Tolbert is better in pass pro. - Tolbert isn't prone to fumbling, as Mathews may be. - As such, Norv surely "trusts" Tolbert more in key spots. What more key spot is there than inside the plus-20?

Points 1 & 2 are spot on.Tolbert is a fumbler though - he had 5 last yr IIRC and another one in the red zone in the preseason. So I'd disagree with point 3.

 

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UPDATE:

WEEK 1 (PPR / 10/pt Scoring - MFL ADP 46/102 in PPR):

Matthews: 14.80pts (with the 46th pick -MFL PPR ADP)

Tolbert: 36.30pts (with the 102nd pick -MFL PPR ADP)

 

[shadyridr]

UPDATE: WEEK 1 (PPR / 10/pt Scoring - MFL ADP 46/102 in PPR):Matthews: 14.80pts (with the 46th pick -MFL PPR ADP)Tolbert: 36.30pts (with the 102nd pick -MFL PPR ADP)

Gimme the guy who scores the TDs & 3rd down looks. I dont get pts for YPC. I cant believe I was a slave to ADP

 

[Apple Jack]

Anybody with both in a PPR league has to be seriously considering starting both.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Round 1 to Tolbert owners - you can't argue with 3 TDs. Good for those of you who took him late and started him today.

As a Mathews owner, I'm not panicking. I thought he looked fantastic and extremely explosive. I'm astonished that the touches ended up the way they did and can't see how Norv can keep him off the field if he's getting 3 20+ yard plays like today.

Fantasy stats withstanding, I thought it was blatantly obvious who the special back was today.

 

[FavreAndAwayAnIdiot]

Round 1 to Tolbert owners - you can't argue with 3 TDs. Good for those of you who took him late and started him today.

As a Mathews owner, I'm not panicking. I thought he looked fantastic and extremely explosive. I'm astonished that the touches ended up the way they did and can't see how Norv can keep him off the field if he's getting 3 20+ yard plays like today.

Fantasy stats withstanding, I thought it was blatantly obvious who the special back was today.

Stop right there... It's Norv Turner.

 

[Scrappy Doo]

It's not the way I wanted Mathews to get it......but......I think he'll get more of the share now b/c of the injury (or injury scare) to Tolbert.

Tolbert's game is all power and if his knee is even just the last bit shaky, it could lead to slightly decreased power.

I still think Tolbert keeps the GL and 3rds but maybe now Norv doesn't go overboard with him.

Mathews getting multiple 20+ yard plays does also help his cause.

 

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SD - RB Mike Tolbert dealing with knee injury

Source: ProFootballTalk.com - Mike Florio

San Diego Chargers RB Mike Tolbert (knee) carried 12 times for 35 yards and a touchdown in Week 1 against the Minnesota Vikings, and he added nine receptions for 58 yards and two scores. However, he left the game in the fourth quarter due to a knee injury. It is not believed to be serious.

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ OUR VIEW ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ]

Tolbert was money in the red zone, and there's no reason that should change going forward. Ryan Mathews is more explosive, but Tolbert is the better fantasy RB.

---

Agree with Joe's sentiment that the knee didn't appear to be serious. THe way they were working it almost looked like a cramping issue. I'll be surprised if there are any lingering issues with it.

I also agree with Joe's sentiment that Tolbert should continue to be the better fantasy back over the course of the year.... ESPECIALLY when you factor in his ADP.

 

[tommyGunZ]

UPDATE: WEEK 1 (PPR / 10/pt Scoring - MFL ADP 46/102 in PPR):Matthews: 14.80pts (with the 46th pick -MFL PPR ADP)Tolbert: 36.30pts (with the 102nd pick -MFL PPR ADP)

GB the sharkpool and its Week 1 chest beaters.

 

[[icon]]

UPDATE:

WEEK 1 (PPR / 10/pt Scoring - MFL ADP 46/102 in PPR):

Matthews: 14.80pts (with the 46th pick -MFL PPR ADP)

Tolbert: 36.30pts (with the 102nd pick -MFL PPR ADP)

GB the sharkpool and its Week 1 chest beaters.

Updating stats is one thing. Chest beaters are the guys going nuts and demanding people admit they were wrong and bragging about how right they were. There is some entertaining stuff going on in the cam newton thread.... e.g. Read DeaLerZ in that thread you cut my quote from:

do i need to say more... I CALLED THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE A CRAZY WAIVER WIRE PICK UP... AND THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE FANTASY RELEVANT... SO YES...i think those are both things i can say after watching ONE GAME

quit being such a negative NANCY... you sound like a #####

 

[FGITLOTR]

Chargers RB Mike Tolbert will have a precautionary MRI exam on his knee Monday morning, according to a team source, but he isn’t expected to miss any significant time.

Tolbert, who was checked out by Chargers doctors after suffering an injury to his right leg in a three-touchdown effort against the Vikings, could miss next week’s game against the New England Patriots, but nothing more is anticipated.

 

[Touchdown There]

The thing about this thread is that Tolbert owners are Negative Nancy on Mathews, and tend not to own him. Mathews owners still like Tolbert, but just realize that Mathews is a better talent.

Moving past the talent discussion and into opportunity, what is very clear after week 1 is that Mathews is not in the game in the red zone. This is disappointing because Mathews would fare just as well inside the 20. I would rather see the two runners alternate series, instead of opportunities based on field position.

As for Tolbert's knee issue, if he has an injury that he does not allow to heal and plays against NE in week 2, the Chargers have a week 3 match-up against the imploding KC Chiefs at home in week 3. In short, it is a long season fellas. I like owning both players.

 

[AmosMoses]

UPDATE:

WEEK 1 (PPR / 10/pt Scoring - MFL ADP 46/102 in PPR):

Matthews: 14.80pts (with the 46th pick -MFL PPR ADP)

Tolbert: 36.30pts (with the 102nd pick -MFL PPR ADP)

GB the sharkpool and its Week 1 chest beaters.

Updating stats is one thing. Chest beaters are the guys going nuts and demanding people admit they were wrong and bragging about how right they were. There is some entertaining stuff going on in the cam newton thread.... e.g. Read DeaLerZ in that thread you cut my quote from:

do i need to say more... I CALLED THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE A CRAZY WAIVER WIRE PICK UP... AND THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE FANTASY RELEVANT... SO YES...i think those are both things i can say after watching ONE GAME

quit being such a negative NANCY... you sound like a #####

Just keep it real. Beat yo chest icon. I would.

 

[[icon]]

The thing about this thread is that Tolbert owners are Negative Nancy on Mathews, and tend not to own him. Mathews owners still like Tolbert, but just realize that Mathews is a better talent.

So feeling that a player is not a great value at their draft position is a "negative nancy" now? When were people only allowed to have positive vibes about players in fantasy football? To attach a loaded phrase like "negative nancy" to people who felt Tolbert was a better value at his ADP seems a bit juvenile to me, as I'm fairly certain there were players that you were "Down" on this year heading into the draft. For example...If you felt that Charles (who I own) wasn't a great value at his ADP due to any number of factors, I don't think I would call you a "Negative Nancy"... I think I'd just say we had a difference of opinion and we'd see how the season shook out. Fantasy Football involves a lot of factors including "talent"... but also factors like "Opportunity/Role" and "Health". I would agree that if you're looking for the back with the best "Big play" ability, then Matthews would be your guy. If the two were both available at pick 45/50 I likely wouldn't own any SD backs this year as there were players I liked better in that range. However, when you considered ALL the factors (talent, opportunity/role, health, ADP) we just felt Tolbert was the better Fantasy Football back. Things change and it's possible Tolbert really is hurt.... It's possible Matthews starts to get more 3rd down or Red Zone looks.... who knows what Norv is thinking. HOwever until I see a change in Opportunity/Role and/or Health factors... I feel Tolbert is the better value.

 

[Gr00vus]

This is disappointing because Mathews would fare just as well inside the 20.

This is the problem I have with people going overboard pimping Matthews. The above statement is simply false, and yesterday illustrated it pretty well. Matthews has great speed, and given clear sailing he's definitely who I (as a Charger fan) would prefer had the ball. Problem is, he goes down easy, usually at the slightest first contact. Tolbert is the opposite. Not only does he have the power to run over/through people, again yesterday, several times he made the first guy miss on his own when things got congested - Matthews still hasn't shown that kind of ability. When the field gets short, Tolbert's skill set is more applicable.They're very different runners, who Norv will continue to use situationally. As long as they're healthy they're both going to split time game to game pretty evenly with variance according to overall game situation along with down and distance. People should also note that when the Chargers entered kill the clock mode, it was Tolbert in there until he got his knee twisted. so that's another game situation where Norv favors using Tolbert over Matthews.As a Charger fan, I like the combination and hope both do well in the roles they're obviously suited for.

 

[nysportsfan]

This is disappointing because Mathews would fare just as well inside the 20.

This is the problem I have with people going overboard pimping Matthews. The above statement is simply false, and yesterday illustrated it pretty well. Matthews has great speed, and given clear sailing he's definitely who I (as a Charger fan) would prefer had the ball. Problem is, he goes down easy, usually at the slightest first contact. Tolbert is the opposite. Not only does he have the power to run over/through people, again yesterday, several times he made the first guy miss on his own when things got congested - Matthews still hasn't shown that kind of ability. When the field gets short, Tolbert's skill set is more applicable.They're very different runners, who Norv will continue to use situationally. As long as they're healthy they're both going to split time game to game pretty evenly with variance according to overall game situation along with down and distance. People should also note that when the Chargers entered kill the clock mode, it was Tolbert in there until he got his knee twisted. so that's another game situation where Norv favors using Tolbert over Matthews.

As a Charger fan, I like the combination and hope both do well in the roles they're obviously suited for.

I could be wrong, but didn't draftguys love this guy because he didn't go down at first contact? That he ran through contact and fell forward? Has that much changed or are we comparing him to Tolbert, who is perhaps one of the best to run through contact? In short, I don't think Mathews goes down at first contact, but rather he doesn't do it as well as Tolbert. I guess that's all that matters for this discussion, though, since they are on the same team. I think the value of either will explode if the other has an injury.

 

[Gr00vus]

This is disappointing because Mathews would fare just as well inside the 20.

This is the problem I have with people going overboard pimping Matthews. The above statement is simply false, and yesterday illustrated it pretty well. Matthews has great speed, and given clear sailing he's definitely who I (as a Charger fan) would prefer had the ball. Problem is, he goes down easy, usually at the slightest first contact. Tolbert is the opposite. Not only does he have the power to run over/through people, again yesterday, several times he made the first guy miss on his own when things got congested - Matthews still hasn't shown that kind of ability. When the field gets short, Tolbert's skill set is more applicable.They're very different runners, who Norv will continue to use situationally. As long as they're healthy they're both going to split time game to game pretty evenly with variance according to overall game situation along with down and distance. People should also note that when the Chargers entered kill the clock mode, it was Tolbert in there until he got his knee twisted. so that's another game situation where Norv favors using Tolbert over Matthews.

As a Charger fan, I like the combination and hope both do well in the roles they're obviously suited for.

I could be wrong, but didn't draftguys love this guy because he didn't go down at first contact? That he ran through contact and fell forward? Has that much changed or are we comparing him to Tolbert, who is perhaps one of the best to run through contact? In short, I don't think Mathews goes down at first contact, but rather he doesn't do it as well as Tolbert. I guess that's all that matters for this discussion, though, since they are on the same team. I think the value of either will explode if the other has an injury.

So far between preseason and yesterday I don't think I've seen one instance of Matthews making a guy miss in traffic (as opposed to open field), or not go down at 1st contact. Right now, he reminds me most of Michael Bennett.

 

[tommyGunZ]

This is disappointing because Mathews would fare just as well inside the 20.

This is the problem I have with people going overboard pimping Matthews. The above statement is simply false, and yesterday illustrated it pretty well. Matthews has great speed, and given clear sailing he's definitely who I (as a Charger fan) would prefer had the ball. Problem is, he goes down easy, usually at the slightest first contact. Tolbert is the opposite. Not only does he have the power to run over/through people, again yesterday, several times he made the first guy miss on his own when things got congested - Matthews still hasn't shown that kind of ability. When the field gets short, Tolbert's skill set is more applicable.They're very different runners, who Norv will continue to use situationally. As long as they're healthy they're both going to split time game to game pretty evenly with variance according to overall game situation along with down and distance. People should also note that when the Chargers entered kill the clock mode, it was Tolbert in there until he got his knee twisted. so that's another game situation where Norv favors using Tolbert over Matthews.

As a Charger fan, I like the combination and hope both do well in the roles they're obviously suited for.

I could be wrong, but didn't draftguys love this guy because he didn't go down at first contact? That he ran through contact and fell forward? Has that much changed or are we comparing him to Tolbert, who is perhaps one of the best to run through contact? In short, I don't think Mathews goes down at first contact, but rather he doesn't do it as well as Tolbert. I guess that's all that matters for this discussion, though, since they are on the same team. I think the value of either will explode if the other has an injury.

So far between preseason and yesterday I don't think I've seen one instance of Matthews making a guy miss in traffic (as opposed to open field), or not go down at 1st contact. Right now, he reminds me most of Michael Bennett.

It's like we're watching different players. There is no doubt that Tolbert is more of a bulldozer than Mathews, but comparing Mathews' agility and shakes to Michael Bennett is quite a leap, IMO.I feel like I'm in bizarro world, b/c I thought Mathews looked great all preseason, and his 7.9 yards per touch yesterday did nothing to diminish that. Tolbert's yards per touch yesterday was 4.4, yet he was more elusive? Wat?

 

[Gr00vus]

This is disappointing because Mathews would fare just as well inside the 20.

This is the problem I have with people going overboard pimping Matthews. The above statement is simply false, and yesterday illustrated it pretty well. Matthews has great speed, and given clear sailing he's definitely who I (as a Charger fan) would prefer had the ball. Problem is, he goes down easy, usually at the slightest first contact. Tolbert is the opposite. Not only does he have the power to run over/through people, again yesterday, several times he made the first guy miss on his own when things got congested - Matthews still hasn't shown that kind of ability. When the field gets short, Tolbert's skill set is more applicable.They're very different runners, who Norv will continue to use situationally. As long as they're healthy they're both going to split time game to game pretty evenly with variance according to overall game situation along with down and distance. People should also note that when the Chargers entered kill the clock mode, it was Tolbert in there until he got his knee twisted. so that's another game situation where Norv favors using Tolbert over Matthews.

As a Charger fan, I like the combination and hope both do well in the roles they're obviously suited for.

I could be wrong, but didn't draftguys love this guy because he didn't go down at first contact? That he ran through contact and fell forward? Has that much changed or are we comparing him to Tolbert, who is perhaps one of the best to run through contact? In short, I don't think Mathews goes down at first contact, but rather he doesn't do it as well as Tolbert. I guess that's all that matters for this discussion, though, since they are on the same team. I think the value of either will explode if the other has an injury.

So far between preseason and yesterday I don't think I've seen one instance of Matthews making a guy miss in traffic (as opposed to open field), or not go down at 1st contact. Right now, he reminds me most of Michael Bennett.

It's like we're watching different players. There is no doubt that Tolbert is more of a bulldozer than Mathews, but comparing Mathews' agility and shakes to Michael Bennett is quite a leap, IMO.I feel like I'm in bizarro world, b/c I thought Mathews looked great all preseason, and his 7.9 yards per touch yesterday did nothing to diminish that. Tolbert's yards per touch yesterday was 4.4, yet he was more elusive? Wat?

The numbers don't tell the whole story here. Matthews got his yards on plays where he was untouched, Tolbert got his in traffic, avoiding guys in the backfield on several occasions. Matthews does look great in space, Norv played to his strengths and he was successful. That's what I'd expect all season long - nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Mash]

Is Tolbert a sell-high candidate, or are we looking at a guy who could challenge for the lead in total TDs this year?

 

[Touchdown There]

This is disappointing because Mathews would fare just as well inside the 20.

Problem is, he goes down easy, usually at the slightest first contact.

#1 - Not true at all and biased.#2 - Pitch it to Mathews when the team is in the redzone and he would score plenty of TDs.Tolbert's touchdowns were in space, not running between the tackles. Mathews would do just as well with the same plays. The issue is opportunity.

 

[Touchdown There]

The thing about this thread is that Tolbert owners are Negative Nancy on Mathews, and tend not to own him. Mathews owners still like Tolbert, but just realize that Mathews is a better talent.

So feeling that a player is not a great value at their draft position is a "negative nancy" now?

I got Mathews as my RB3 in round 5-6 in two leagues. If you feel that he is not a great value there you are still blinding yourself with a Mathews vs Tolbert competition. Tolbert may be the steal of the draft this year. This has NO REFLECTION on Mathews.Yes. You are a Negative Nancy on Mathews in this thread.

 

[Gr00vus]

This is disappointing because Mathews would fare just as well inside the 20.

Problem is, he goes down easy, usually at the slightest first contact.

#1 - Not true at all and biased.

It's right there on tape, all preseason, all day yesterday. Also, how am I biased exactly?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Saying that Mathews goes down easily, usually on first contact, seems way off to me. I think he's among the top RBs in the league in his ability to bounce off tacklers and maintain his balance. He's almost as good as Tolbert in that respect, IMO. It was evident last year, and this year during the preseason. And if you want an example from yesterday, watch him run through the tackle along the sideline on his second long catch & run.

 

[Gr00vus]

Saying that Mathews goes down easily, usually on first contact, seems way off to me. I think he's among the top RBs in the league in his ability to bounce off tacklers and maintain his balance. He's almost as good as Tolbert in that respect, IMO. It was evident last year, and this year during the preseason. And if you want an example from yesterday, watch him run through the tackle along the sideline on his second long catch & run.

Do you mean this (Matthews's 37 yard catch highlight)? Or are you thinking of a different one?Either way, compare that to this (Tolbert's 7 yard TD run highlight). That's what I'm talking about, particularly in regard to comments like:

Tolbert's touchdowns were in space, not running between the tackles. Mathews would do just as well with the same plays. The issue is opportunity.

 

[heropretend]

this argument is hilarious. it's hard to argue against opportunity (tolbert) by pointing out talent (mathews) in the preseason. but during the games that count...thinking back to last year and rewatching the sd highlights...tolbert is the only every week starter. lock him up for 10 more tds this season. sd is using both tolbert and matthews on passing downs, 3rd downs, everything. the edge in this split goes to the guy who is going to get the majority of the tds. mathews is the other back in a rbbc on a good offense. great for bye weeks and flex spots.

 

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Anyone have Yards after Contact data for Tolbert vs Matthews (in comparison to the rest of the leauge? I think it could help put the "yards after first contact" rumors to rest. Of course, Tolberts will be deflated a bit due to Goalline carries... but it should at least be something worth looking at.

 

[Dought Man]

Mathews likely wont even have 3 tds total ALL season... he'll serve fine as a flex play for teams that finish around .500 in their leagues. Tolbert is the only startable guy in the backfield.

 

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Mathews likely wont even have 3 tds total ALL season... he'll serve fine as a flex play for teams that finish around .500 in their leagues. Tolbert is the only startable guy in the backfield.

Oh come on now....

 

[Touchdown There]

Mathews likely wont even have 3 tds total ALL season... he'll serve fine as a flex play for teams that finish around .500 in their leagues. Tolbert is the only startable guy in the backfield.

Oh come on now....

This is really a perfect example of what I meant above. The thread is titled "Ryan Mathews & Mike Tolbert" not "Ryan Mathews vs Mike Tolbert". The Tolbert owners just like to come into the thread and poke.

 

[VaTerp]

Mathews likely wont even have 3 tds total ALL season... he'll serve fine as a flex play for teams that finish around .500 in their leagues. Tolbert is the only startable guy in the backfield.

Oh come on now....

This is really a perfect example of what I meant above. The thread is titled "Ryan Mathews & Mike Tolbert" not "Ryan Mathews vs Mike Tolbert". The Tolbert owners just like to come into the thread and poke.

That's one ignorant comment and not reflective of the comments/posters overall.

 

[Touchdown There]

Mathews likely wont even have 3 tds total ALL season... he'll serve fine as a flex play for teams that finish around .500 in their leagues. Tolbert is the only startable guy in the backfield.

Oh come on now....

This is really a perfect example of what I meant above. The thread is titled "Ryan Mathews & Mike Tolbert" not "Ryan Mathews vs Mike Tolbert". The Tolbert owners just like to come into the thread and poke.

That's one ignorant comment and not reflective of the comments/posters overall.

Good poke.

 

[Gr00vus]

Tolbert o.k.:

...as multiple people with knowledge of his injury had predicted Sunday, running back Mike Tolbert's knee was declared healthy after additional tests by doctors on Monday.

"Mike's doing good," Turner said Monday. "Mike got banged around pretty good. He's obviously a very physical player. I don't expect him to miss any time."

 

[shadyridr]

dammit

 

[thayman]

Mathews likely wont even have 3 tds total ALL season... he'll serve fine as a flex play for teams that finish around .500 in their leagues. Tolbert is the only startable guy in the backfield.

I will bet anything you would like that barring injury Matthews will have at least 3 tds this year.

 

[Tau837]

The thing about this thread is that Tolbert owners are Negative Nancy on Mathews, and tend not to own him. Mathews owners still like Tolbert, but just realize that Mathews is a better talent.

So feeling that a player is not a great value at their draft position is a "negative nancy" now? When were people only allowed to have positive vibes about players in fantasy football? To attach a loaded phrase like "negative nancy" to people who felt Tolbert was a better value at his ADP seems a bit juvenile to me, as I'm fairly certain there were players that you were "Down" on this year heading into the draft. For example...If you felt that Charles (who I own) wasn't a great value at his ADP due to any number of factors, I don't think I would call you a "Negative Nancy"... I think I'd just say we had a difference of opinion and we'd see how the season shook out. Fantasy Football involves a lot of factors including "talent"... but also factors like "Opportunity/Role" and "Health". I would agree that if you're looking for the back with the best "Big play" ability, then Matthews would be your guy. If the two were both available at pick 45/50 I likely wouldn't own any SD backs this year as there were players I liked better in that range. However, when you considered ALL the factors (talent, opportunity/role, health, ADP) we just felt Tolbert was the better Fantasy Football back. Things change and it's possible Tolbert really is hurt.... It's possible Matthews starts to get more 3rd down or Red Zone looks.... who knows what Norv is thinking. HOwever until I see a change in Opportunity/Role and/or Health factors... I feel Tolbert is the better value.

Why is anyone bothering to talk about ADP at this point? Are you still drafting? Who cares who was the better value now? And, better question, why are people (Tolbert backers, basically) acting like the answer is clear after one game?

 

[Tau837]

This is the problem I have with people going overboard pimping Matthews. The above statement is simply false, and yesterday illustrated it pretty well. Matthews has great speed, and given clear sailing he's definitely who I (as a Charger fan) would prefer had the ball. Problem is, he goes down easy, usually at the slightest first contact. Tolbert is the opposite. Not only does he have the power to run over/through people, again yesterday, several times he made the first guy miss on his own when things got congested - Matthews still hasn't shown that kind of ability. When the field gets short, Tolbert's skill set is more applicable.

This is the problem I have with people going out of their way to either pimp Tolbert or bash Mathews. You say Tolbert can run over/through people and proved it yesterday, while Mathews goes down at first contact. Yet Mathews averaged more yards per carry and more yards per reception. Is it just crazy good luck that Mathews so much more often just happens to not get "first contact" until he is 10-20+ yards downfield? I think not.

They're very different runners, who Norv will continue to use situationally. As long as they're healthy they're both going to split time game to game pretty evenly with variance according to overall game situation along with down and distance. People should also note that when the Chargers entered kill the clock mode, it was Tolbert in there until he got his knee twisted. so that's another game situation where Norv favors using Tolbert over Matthews.

People should also note that as soon as Tolbert left the game, Mathews made a great catch and run, cutting back inside to stay inbounds, to secure an important first down to kill the clock. There is nothing that inherently makes Tolbert better at killing the clock. Mathews can get 1-3 yards just as well as Tolbert can, and he can actually do more in the passing game IMO.

As a Charger fan, I like the combination and hope both do well

I agree.

 

[Tau837]

This is disappointing because Mathews would fare just as well inside the 20.

This is the problem I have with people going overboard pimping Matthews. The above statement is simply false, and yesterday illustrated it pretty well. Matthews has great speed, and given clear sailing he's definitely who I (as a Charger fan) would prefer had the ball. Problem is, he goes down easy, usually at the slightest first contact. Tolbert is the opposite. Not only does he have the power to run over/through people, again yesterday, several times he made the first guy miss on his own when things got congested - Matthews still hasn't shown that kind of ability. When the field gets short, Tolbert's skill set is more applicable.They're very different runners, who Norv will continue to use situationally. As long as they're healthy they're both going to split time game to game pretty evenly with variance according to overall game situation along with down and distance. People should also note that when the Chargers entered kill the clock mode, it was Tolbert in there until he got his knee twisted. so that's another game situation where Norv favors using Tolbert over Matthews.

As a Charger fan, I like the combination and hope both do well in the roles they're obviously suited for.

I could be wrong, but didn't draftguys love this guy because he didn't go down at first contact? That he ran through contact and fell forward? Has that much changed or are we comparing him to Tolbert, who is perhaps one of the best to run through contact? In short, I don't think Mathews goes down at first contact, but rather he doesn't do it as well as Tolbert. I guess that's all that matters for this discussion, though, since they are on the same team. I think the value of either will explode if the other has an injury.

So far between preseason and yesterday I don't think I've seen one instance of Matthews making a guy miss in traffic (as opposed to open field), or not go down at 1st contact. Right now, he reminds me most of Michael Bennett.

It's like we're watching different players. There is no doubt that Tolbert is more of a bulldozer than Mathews, but comparing Mathews' agility and shakes to Michael Bennett is quite a leap, IMO.I feel like I'm in bizarro world, b/c I thought Mathews looked great all preseason, and his 7.9 yards per touch yesterday did nothing to diminish that. Tolbert's yards per touch yesterday was 4.4, yet he was more elusive? Wat?

Agree 100%

 

[Tau837]

Mathews likely wont even have 3 tds total ALL season... he'll serve fine as a flex play for teams that finish around .500 in their leagues. Tolbert is the only startable guy in the backfield.

 

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The thing about this thread is that Tolbert owners are Negative Nancy on Mathews, and tend not to own him. Mathews owners still like Tolbert, but just realize that Mathews is a better talent.

So feeling that a player is not a great value at their draft position is a "negative nancy" now?

I got Mathews as my RB3 in round 5-6 in two leagues. If you feel that he is not a great value there you are still blinding yourself with a Mathews vs Tolbert competition. Tolbert may be the steal of the draft this year. This has NO REFLECTION on Mathews.Yes. You are a Negative Nancy on Mathews in this thread.

I'll ask this question... outright. What are your projections for Matthews and Tolbert for this year. This information will go a LONG way toward my response to your post.

 

[[icon]]

Why is anyone bothering to talk about ADP at this point? Are you still drafting? Who cares who was the better value now? And, better question, why are people (Tolbert backers, basically) acting like the answer is clear after one game?

Well then we're having two completely different debates.However, the fact that there is even a debate about a 10th Round back vs a 4th or 5th Round back at this point says all we need to know.

 

[Raider Nation]

I don't know which staffer wrote the Ryan Mathews portion of the Upgrades/Downgrades email, but it's pretty comical that he was listed in the downgrade section. On what planet does 118 yards get you a downgrade?