Scott Walker WI governor vs the Packers & teachers (5 Viewers)

[Alex P Keaton]

I don't think there's a ton of opposition to the concept of reducing salaries for many or most public employees, including teachers. I think the concern with Walker's tactics is that he is stripping the unions of their ability to collectively bargain on any of the issues cba's typically address, other than pay. I'm not really sure how he is doing this, but that is how it is being reported - that the teachers' union (for example) can no longer bargain over things like sick pay, hours, vacation discipline, promotions, etc. That seems strange to me, even as a critic of the teachers union. Its also a concern that he has completely exempted the police and firefighters unions, claiming they have special status relating to public security. In Milwaukee, both of these unions were big Walker supporters last November, although I know that was not necessarily true across the state.

Exactly. Easily the best post of the entire thread. Amazing how many people (whether in here or in the public sphere) are either ignoring the nut of the issue intentionally or are too dumb to realize what the primary issue is.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I'm not sure where I stand on the collective bargaining issue. I understand that in theory, that seems like a bad thing. However, as a taxpayer, I'm very concerned about our state being flat ### broke.

And we know that the majority of state workers pay much, much less than the national average for their health insurance premiums. So Walker asking them to pay a bit more, a number that still only amounts to half the national average, doest't strike me as a bad thing.

As a private sector worker, I've seen more than my share of job loss, increased premiums, and pay freezes. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

I don't disagree in the least with your comments above. Very fair. The issue is whether or not Walker is following an appropriate, legal process to achieve his proposed outcomes. The process should matter to people. For whatever reason, too many people are willing to cut corners and infringe on people's rights.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I wonder how this is being reported by al jezeerqa?

 

[tuffnutt]

LOL... some of you really crack me up with the "Teachers have it too good" rhetoric. If the benifits are SOOO good why don't you all get into the profession?? Here's my invite into the world of education. I mean it sounds like a CAKE job, what with all the great benefits and job security. I mean they DON'T EVEN work all year around!! I would think some of you would be lined up to get on that gravy train. I mean with the unions running amuck. I can't think of a better profession.

Those who can, do.Those who can't, teach.

original... what is it that you"do" and who "taught" you how to do it?

 

[mad sweeney]

God Bless Scott Walker for trying to bring some sanity to public worker contracts.

LOTS of brainwashed/uneducated people in Wisconsin don't understand that if these actions aren't taken it would result in the loss of thousands of jobs to close the budget gap.

This is what people (especially liberals) don't understand. Someone has to be the bad guy and say enough is enough. I'm glad we finally have an adult in the governors mansion that refuses to buckle under the thumb of the public employee unions.

Governor Walker is doing what's right for Wisconsin.

Teachers and other people affected by the new laws, sorry you FINALLY have to pay half of what the rest of us have to pay for benefits.

I don't understand the whole conservative theory of railing against Obama or libs for not creating jobs while at the same time trumpeting their proposed budget cuts that will put "thousands" of people out of work.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

God Bless Scott Walker for trying to bring some sanity to public worker contracts.

LOTS of brainwashed/uneducated people in Wisconsin don't understand that if these actions aren't taken it would result in the loss of thousands of jobs to close the budget gap.

This is what people (especially liberals) don't understand. Someone has to be the bad guy and say enough is enough. I'm glad we finally have an adult in the governors mansion that refuses to buckle under the thumb of the public employee unions.

Governor Walker is doing what's right for Wisconsin.

Teachers and other people affected by the new laws, sorry you FINALLY have to pay half of what the rest of us have to pay for benefits.

I don't understand the whole conservative theory of railing against Obama or libs for not creating jobs while at the same time trumpeting their proposed budget cuts that will put "thousands" of people out of work.

It's usually a consequence of people who either don't use consistent logic or are just plain dumb.

 

[Mr.Pack]

God Bless Scott Walker for trying to bring some sanity to public worker contracts.

LOTS of brainwashed/uneducated people in Wisconsin don't understand that if these actions aren't taken it would result in the loss of thousands of jobs to close the budget gap.

This is what people (especially liberals) don't understand. Someone has to be the bad guy and say enough is enough. I'm glad we finally have an adult in the governors mansion that refuses to buckle under the thumb of the public employee unions.

Governor Walker is doing what's right for Wisconsin.

Teachers and other people affected by the new laws, sorry you FINALLY have to pay half of what the rest of us have to pay for benefits.

I don't understand the whole conservative theory of railing against Obama or libs for not creating jobs while at the same time trumpeting their proposed budget cuts that will put "thousands" of people out of work.

It's usually a consequence of people who either don't use consistent logic or are just plain dumb.

I've read a lot of your posts. You definitely would know about this.

You're also great at jumping to conclusions and making ridiculous judgement's.

Carry on, you're quite hilarious

 

[Alex P Keaton]

God Bless Scott Walker for trying to bring some sanity to public worker contracts.

LOTS of brainwashed/uneducated people in Wisconsin don't understand that if these actions aren't taken it would result in the loss of thousands of jobs to close the budget gap.

This is what people (especially liberals) don't understand. Someone has to be the bad guy and say enough is enough. I'm glad we finally have an adult in the governors mansion that refuses to buckle under the thumb of the public employee unions.

Governor Walker is doing what's right for Wisconsin.

Teachers and other people affected by the new laws, sorry you FINALLY have to pay half of what the rest of us have to pay for benefits.

I don't understand the whole conservative theory of railing against Obama or libs for not creating jobs while at the same time trumpeting their proposed budget cuts that will put "thousands" of people out of work.

It's usually a consequence of people who either don't use consistent logic or are just plain dumb.

I've read a lot of your posts. You definitely would know about this.

You're also great at jumping to conclusions and making ridiculous judgement's.

Carry on, you're quite hilarious

Whatever you say. Carry on with your brilliant comments.

 

[tuffnutt]

LOL... some of you really crack me up with the "Teachers have it too good" rhetoric. If the benifits are SOOO good why don't you all get into the profession?? Here's my invite into the world of education. I mean it sounds like a CAKE job, what with all the great benefits and job security. I mean they DON'T EVEN work all year around!! I would think some of you would be lined up to get on that gravy train. I mean with the unions running amuck. I can't think of a better profession.

No one forced any of those teachers to get into teaching.Take the whining elsewhere.Oh and I was a teacher once. Easiest money I ever made. But I hated it, so i got out.

not whining... I love my job. and i have never been one who felt i was undercompensated or underappreciated. I do my job and wouldnt change it. My point is and has always been those who complain thats its a cush job with such great benefits, had the same chance to get into it as I did. It seems to me that if its so good of a job that more would WANT to do it. But thanks for the advise

I don't think anyone's saying that teachers have 'cush' jobs. It takes the right kind of person to teach. Just like it take the right kind of person to be a great sales person. Or the CEO of a company. I also don't think it's out of line to ask that teacher's pay more of their insurance premium. And it's not out of line to be asked to cover more of their pension. Especially in light of a budget shortfall of 3.6 billion dollars.Someone has to cover that cost. Either everyone's taxes go up, or the state makes cuts. And I'll tell you right now, raising taxes at a time when the private sector has been hatcheting jobs over the last few years is not the way to go. In your opinion, how would you close the budget gap?

I don't pretend to have the answer. I understand the position that state employees take up huge portion of state budgets. I am willing to pay more. times are tough and we all need to sacrifice. But i think we need to be careful when we glibly talk about the burden of teacher benefits. I have seen several threads around here talking about the lack of quality teachers and how bad teachers are protected by unions(which i agree with.) I contend that if you start taking away the few perks (monetary) of the job you will have an EVEN harder time recruiting the best and brightest to the field. And when that happens and we fall father behind the rest of the world, i wonder if that is worth saving a little coin.

 

[Johnnymac]

LOL... some of you really crack me up with the "Teachers have it too good" rhetoric. If the benifits are SOOO good why don't you all get into the profession?? Here's my invite into the world of education. I mean it sounds like a CAKE job, what with all the great benefits and job security. I mean they DON'T EVEN work all year around!! I would think some of you would be lined up to get on that gravy train. I mean with the unions running amuck. I can't think of a better profession.

No one forced any of those teachers to get into teaching.Take the whining elsewhere.Oh and I was a teacher once. Easiest money I ever made. But I hated it, so i got out.

not whining... I love my job. and i have never been one who felt i was undercompensated or underappreciated. I do my job and wouldnt change it. My point is and has always been those who complain thats its a cush job with such great benefits, had the same chance to get into it as I did. It seems to me that if its so good of a job that more would WANT to do it. But thanks for the advise

I don't think anyone's saying that teachers have 'cush' jobs. It takes the right kind of person to teach. Just like it take the right kind of person to be a great sales person. Or the CEO of a company. I also don't think it's out of line to ask that teacher's pay more of their insurance premium. And it's not out of line to be asked to cover more of their pension. Especially in light of a budget shortfall of 3.6 billion dollars.Someone has to cover that cost. Either everyone's taxes go up, or the state makes cuts. And I'll tell you right now, raising taxes at a time when the private sector has been hatcheting jobs over the last few years is not the way to go. In your opinion, how would you close the budget gap?

I don't pretend to have the answer. I understand the position that state employees take up huge portion of state budgets. I am willing to pay more. times are tough and we all need to sacrifice. But i think we need to be careful when we glibly talk about the burden of teacher benefits. I have seen several threads around here talking about the lack of quality teachers and how bad teachers are protected by unions(which i agree with.) I contend that if you start taking away the few perks (monetary) of the job you will have an EVEN harder time recruiting the best and brightest to the field. And when that happens and we fall father behind the rest of the world, i wonder if that is worth saving a little coin.

People need to start understanding that education is everything. If we do not educate our people at least as well as many other industrialized nations we will find ourselves lagging behind in all sorts of ways. Think long term vs short term.

 

[sts911911]

LOL... some of you really crack me up with the "Teachers have it too good" rhetoric. If the benifits are SOOO good why don't you all get into the profession?? Here's my invite into the world of education. I mean it sounds like a CAKE job, what with all the great benefits and job security. I mean they DON'T EVEN work all year around!! I would think some of you would be lined up to get on that gravy train. I mean with the unions running amuck. I can't think of a better profession.

No one forced any of those teachers to get into teaching.

Take the whining elsewhere.

Oh and I was a teacher once. Easiest money I ever made. But I hated it, so i got out.

Sure, I bet it was easy -- you were probably one of the awful teachers who give the profession a bad name. That's usually what I've seen from folks who claim that "it was easy to be a teacher."

If it was the easiest money you ever made then you weren't working hard enough... glad you are out of the profession...

 

[dickey moe]

Don't cut teachers' salaries. Cut their benefits. Make them pay a greater share for health care coverage and give them the option of contributing to a 401K or equivalent.

 

[mr. furley]

anyone else tired of politicians using the "we're going broke and i'm going to fix it!" line as a cudgel to get done what they actually want?

pretty sure "breaking" the teachers union isn't going to fix the half trillion dollar gap.. or whatever the #### it is this year.

 

[HellToupee]

anyone else tired of politicians using the "we're going broke and i'm going to fix it!" line as a cudgel to get done what they actually want?pretty sure "breaking" the teachers union isn't going to fix the half trillion dollar gap.. or whatever the #### it is this year.

this

 

[Mr. Pickles]

Not really following this story too closely, but a friend of mine from college, who is a teacher in Madison, spoke in front of the Joint Finance Committee. Her speech is below. Not saying I endorse what she said (a few cringe-worthy moments in there), but I thought I'd share. Have at it...

This is my modest contribution to the debate about the Budget Repair Bill

I would like to start by separating the proposal from the person. But because the person is center and front in this, I will leave only one note. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt and assume that Governor Walker is an intellegent, thoughtful and successful man. I also believe he is wrong both in the content and the style of his proposal. And people live by their acts and words. Clearly, in his core, he thinks it is ok to dispose of people's livelyhoods, feelings and aspirations, without giving them a chance to defend them, in the name of some higher political purpose. The judgement of his character must have this in consideration.

Now for the Proposal:

Let us start with a premise: the State's budget needs some fixin', and the alternative to Walker's proposal is the lay off of thousands of of State workers (http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/115911379.html).

Given this premise, let us look at the alternative. Would Scott Walker fire thousands of State workers?

I think he wouldn't. WI has 3.5 million voters. In the last election, Walker own by 118.000 votes (http://gab.wi.gov/elections-voting/results/2010/fall-general). That's a 5% margin, or a change of voting direction of 59.000 votes.

Numbers from the WI worknet (http://worknet.wisconsin.gov/worknet/downloads.aspx?menuselection=da&pgm=CES) indicate that there are 426,000 government workers. Of these, 31.000 are federal workers, 99.000 are state and 295.000 are local government, including 159.000 in education.

After this, all calculations are speculative. It was hard enough to find these numbers. But let us assume that state workers vote the same way as the general population, with the exception of teachers, which will vote 75-25 for democrats (I may be overstating this, but we have to start somewhere). So, 61% of these 426,000 government workers vote, with 151.000 voting Democrat and 110,000 voting Republican.

Also assume each government worker, between friends and family, can influence the vote of just one person. All it takes for Scott Walker to lose the next election is for 24,500 government workers to change their mind (between republicans deciding to vote for dems and stay home, and for registered voters that did not vote to come vote for the dems). This constituency totals 276,000. 24,500 is less than 10% (8.8%, more precisely). It does not seem to be a stretch of imaginations to consider that Walker would not have the guts to lay off "thousands" of workers.

So if he can not "lay off thousands", what should the Governor do?

Given that Scott Walker would probably not fire thousand of workers, how can we interpret this idea that the rights of state workers are the key to balance the budget?

But before we try to answer this, let's look at the other side of the bargain.

The budget gap is $137 million from now until the end of June, and $3.6 billion for the next fiscal budget (2011-13). The annual budget is about $15 billion. This is a number that is seldom referred on news, and I do not know why. You can only find it by reading lots of meaningless notes (check last fiscal budget "in brief" http://www.doa.state.wi.us/debf/pdf_files/bib.pdf ).

Basic Data About the Budget and The People it Will Affect

So the basic proposal is to reduce benefits to state workers and save a portion of the $137 million shortfall in the next 4 months, and $3.6 billion over the following 24 months. The Governor's office thinks that the proposed measures will save $30 million right away and $300 million in the following two years. Local government and teachers are out of the calculation.

Gut check: let us assume the average state worker (including local government and teachers) makes $45.000. This is probably an overstatement, but lets roll with it.

The proposal is for a contribution of 5% of salary to pensions ($2,250/yr), and 12% of health insurance premiums (assume $15,000/yr in premiums, or $1,800/yr). Simple math: those numbers alone give $133 million in the next 4 months (Mar-Jun), and $400 million per year over the next two years. This is only for the 99,000 state workers.

Side note: the difference between these numbers and Gov. Walker's announcement might be in his decision to leave police and firefighters out of the changes. Either that, or the average salary of State workers is less than $45,000/year (which is the average salary for the USA as a whole, give or take).

If you add the same level of savings to teachers and local government workers, then you are talking about $1.2 billion of savings in 2 years. Meaning, out of an active population of 2.7 million people, the sacrifice of less than 400,000 (or 14%) takes care of 33% of the budget deficit.

Now lets look at the other side of the coin. If we decide not to reduce the expense on the backs of state, local and education workers, then what can be done?

The Tax Option

The logic answer is: cut some other place or raise taxes. Lets leave other cuts aside. Either those cuts have been done already, or they may be too hard to enact.

If you can not reduce expenses, then you need to raise taxes. We all know that Republicans refuse to even talk about this. But a quick look at the budget breakdown on the revenue side gives some immediate answers.

General Purpose Revenue (GPR) is 46% of the budget (or just a shade under $6 billion, for a $15 billion budget). Of GPR, 50% is income tax, 32% sales tax, and 7% Corporate tax.

Lets look at the sales tax first. An increase of 0.5% in sales tax would increase revenues $174 million. That means your $100 grocery bill or your $100 meal would now cost an additional 50 cents.

Next, a little speculation on income tax. The State collects about $3 billion in income tax from all income tax payers. I do not have the data (or the knowledge) to do much more than compare to averages. But if an average worker makes $45,000/year, and we have 2.7 million workers in the State, each worker pays $1,100 (round numbers), or an effective rate of 2.5%. If the effective rate per worker is increase to 3%, or $242 per worker, the State will collect an additional $655 million.

Finally, corporations in Wisconsin pay only 7% of all GPR. That means $478 million. If corporations were to pay an additional 1% of the GPR, that would be another $60 million.

Total all that, and we have $889 million of additional revenue. Spread by all tax payers, individuals and corporations, instead of only on the backs of less than 400,000 people.

The Economic Conclusion

In short:

The governor has a choice of reducing the deficit by $1.2 billion by making 400,000 pay an additional $4,000 from an average salary of $45,000 (or about 9%).

Or he can have all tax payers contribute $889 million to reduce the deficit by paying an additional 50 cents in sales tax for every $100 of purchases, paying an additional $242 on average in income tax, and having corporations increase their share of GPR to 8%.

The Political Conclusion

So the question now becomes this: why is Scott Walker trying this at this moment? Or better: why is he putting as an alternative laying off "thousands" of State workers or reducing expenses by cutting their pay 9%? And why is he not considering an increase in revenue with modest tax raises of 0.5% in sales tax and income tax, and increasing the weight of corporate taxes on revenue by 1%?

Because we are making an effort to separate the person from the proposal, lets assume that Gov. Walker is not an idiot, or a villain who blinks his eyes when he speaks. That means that there has to be a rational reason for him to do this, at this time.

If you have any other idea, I am willing to hear it. But right now, I can only think of one: Gov. Walker has assessed the risk of trying this, and thinks it is a good bet to change the system that the State of Wisconsin has known for many years. This is a political calculation, and he believes he can make a name for himself with very little downside.

Lets remember that the Republican Party modern foundation hero is Ronald Reagan, and he made his name when he broke the air traffic controller strike. I believe that every modern republican has dreams about breaking unions, and becoming an instant prophet for the American right. Walker is on the verge of doing it. He believes that the 2 million votes he received, combined with a majority on both chambers, gives him a unique opportunity to create a name for himself.

At the same time, we all know that it is easier to have a few thousand people pissed off, than everybody. It is easier to paint a group of perceived privileged, educated liberals, than explain why somebody that vowed in public to never raise taxes recant his options. And it is a bargaining strategy to frame something as unavoidable. By doing it, and backing it with the National Guard, the lethargy of the populace, and a legion of goose step walking legislators. And if everything goes wrong, the economy is and will continue to improve. The budget woes will be fixed, either by Scott Walkers actions, or more likely, by th general improvement in economic conditions. So he will look like an hero, who triumphed over odds, even if he does not get all he wants, or because he was decisive, forward thinking and impervious to the pressure of the lobbies.

As an added bonus, Mr. Walker is probably doing a favor to his many contributors, who gave him $9 million. I do not think you will find many State workers making $45,000 a year in this list: http://www.followthemoney.org/database/Sta...p;p=1#sorttable

I hope this helps to inform you a little better about the essence of what is at stake.

 

[knowledge dropper]

How are so many teachers calling in sick that they have to close the schools "Helping the Children"? The "It's for the kids" argument is such garbage I am tired of hearing it. I believe I heard before that close to 90% of the school budget goes to teacher pay and benefits, and yet when something needs to get cut they start with the good sports or clubs just to get property tax increases through, it's a joke. Almost never are teacher union demands ever for the kids benefit. This from someone who has had to hear these #### arguments from friends wives and friends for years. They really have no clue how the private sector is and what normal employees have to pay for. I could go on for a long time but don't want to. I have no problem with them paying for some of their benefits...

"Rack Him" Ohio is starting the same fight as Wisconsin. It seems like the Badger state beats us at everything. The same arguments are being made in Ohio. If you look at summer's off, two weeks at Christmas, a week at Easter, holidays, sick days, personal days, etc. and an average salary that is getting up to about 70K for 10 years experience, teaching is pretty much the best paying part time job in the world.The biggest reasons for the fights that nobody talks about is the partisanship of public employee unions. They spent millions attempting to get democrats elected. They were unsuccessful, of course there will be repercussions. These republican governors now have the votes to cut off the flow of money from within the government they control. The rank and file should also be irked at their union leadership that has been spoiling for this fight for decades.

 

[snogger]

God Bless Scott Walker for trying to bring some sanity to public worker contracts.

LOTS of brainwashed/uneducated people in Wisconsin don't understand that if these actions aren't taken it would result in the loss of thousands of jobs to close the budget gap.

This is what people (especially liberals) don't understand. Someone has to be the bad guy and say enough is enough. I'm glad we finally have an adult in the governors mansion that refuses to buckle under the thumb of the public employee unions.

Governor Walker is doing what's right for Wisconsin.

Teachers and other people affected by the new laws, sorry you FINALLY have to pay half of what the rest of us have to pay for benefits.

I don't understand the whole conservative theory of railing against Obama or libs for not creating jobs while at the same time trumpeting their proposed budget cuts that will put "thousands" of people out of work.

The quote is "Without these measures thousands of jobs would be lost".. Not that taking these measures will cost thousands of jobs.

Or maybe I'm misreading your comments??

 

[snogger]

Don't cut teachers' salaries. Cut their benefits. Make them pay a greater share for health care coverage and give them the option of contributing to a 401K or equivalent.

Where is anyone seeing that they are going to cut Teachers salaries Unless you mean they will need to pickup some of the cost of their pension and insurance, which by the reports is about 8 percent which is peanuts compared to what us non-government employees pay.

Under Walker's plan, state employees' share of pension and health care costs would go up by an average of 8 percent.

 

[snogger]

Some other GREAT things about this bill:

Unions still could represent workers, but could not seek pay increases above those pegged to the Consumer Price Index unless approved by a public referendum.

Unions also could not force employees to pay dues and would have to hold annual votes to stay organized.



In exchange for bearing more costs and losing bargaining leverage, public employees were promised no furloughs or layoffs.

Walker has threatened to order layoffs of up to 6,000 state workers if the measure does not pass.

 

[mad sweeney]

God Bless Scott Walker for trying to bring some sanity to public worker contracts.

LOTS of brainwashed/uneducated people in Wisconsin don't understand that if these actions aren't taken it would result in the loss of thousands of jobs to close the budget gap.

This is what people (especially liberals) don't understand. Someone has to be the bad guy and say enough is enough. I'm glad we finally have an adult in the governors mansion that refuses to buckle under the thumb of the public employee unions.

Governor Walker is doing what's right for Wisconsin.

Teachers and other people affected by the new laws, sorry you FINALLY have to pay half of what the rest of us have to pay for benefits.

I don't understand the whole conservative theory of railing against Obama or libs for not creating jobs while at the same time trumpeting their proposed budget cuts that will put "thousands" of people out of work.

The quote is "Without these measures thousands of jobs would be lost".. Not that taking these measures will cost thousands of jobs.

Or maybe I'm misreading your comments??

My comment is more for the general Republican idea of slashing fed/state budgets that will come, in part, in the form of eliminating jobs. It's not just this article, where it doesn't apply as much as in others, it's the whole theory of slashing budgets, which includes jobs, while blasting Dems for not creating enough jobs.

 

[Statorama]

I'm not sure where I stand on the collective bargaining issue. I understand that in theory, that seems like a bad thing. However, as a taxpayer, I'm very concerned about our state being flat ### broke.

And we know that the majority of state workers pay much, much less than the national average for their health insurance premiums. So Walker asking them to pay a bit more, a number that still only amounts to half the national average, doest't strike me as a bad thing.

As a private sector worker, I've seen more than my share of job loss, increased premiums, and pay freezes. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

I don't disagree in the least with your comments above. Very fair. The issue is whether or not Walker is following an appropriate, legal process to achieve his proposed outcomes.

He's doing it by passing laws through the legislature Doesn't get more appropriate and legal than that. Plus he didn't have to use any shennanigans like "reconciliation" to do it.

 

[Shtaym Syek]

How are so many teachers calling in sick that they have to close the schools "Helping the Children"? The "It's for the kids" argument is such garbage I am tired of hearing it. I believe I heard before that close to 90% of the school budget goes to teacher pay and benefits, and yet when something needs to get cut they start with the good sports or clubs just to get property tax increases through, it's a joke. Almost never are teacher union demands ever for the kids benefit. This from someone who has had to hear these #### arguments from friends wives and friends for years. They really have no clue how the private sector is and what normal employees have to pay for. I could go on for a long time but don't want to. I have no problem with them paying for some of their benefits...

"Rack Him"

Jesus.

 

[snogger]

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlhttp://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlThe state's largest teachers union Wednesday night called on all 98,000 of its members to attend rallies in Madison on Thursday and Friday, which led school districts — including Madison — to cancel classes for Thursday.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlYea, that's the way to get support from the working class. Force them to either take days off from work to take care of their children while you rally, or force them to spend their money to find babysitters so they can earn a check to pay bills.

NICE!!

 

[Pipes]

Don't cut teachers' salaries. Cut their benefits. Make them pay a greater share for health care coverage and give them the option of contributing to a 401K or equivalent.

Where is anyone seeing that they are going to cut Teachers salaries Unless you mean they will need to pickup some of the cost of their pension and insurance, which by the reports is about 8 percent which is peanuts compared to what us non-government employees pay.

Under Walker's plan, state employees' share of pension and health care costs would go up by an average of 8 percent.

Not just teachers but all government employees should pay more of their health insurance and retirement benefits...just like most everyone in the private sector.

 

[Slapdash]

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlhttp://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlThe state's largest teachers union Wednesday night called on all 98,000 of its members to attend rallies in Madison on Thursday and Friday, which led school districts — including Madison — to cancel classes for Thursday.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlYea, that's the way to get support from the working class. Force them to either take days off from work to take care of their children while you rally, or force them to spend their money to find babysitters so they can earn a check to pay bills.

NICE!!

If the governor really trying to gut their ability to bargin collectively like you outlined above, then maybe they should be striking. Why should they do nothing while their labor rights are being taken away?

 

[Man in the yellow hat]

I'm not sure where I stand on the collective bargaining issue. I understand that in theory, that seems like a bad thing. However, as a taxpayer, I'm very concerned about our state being flat ### broke.

And we know that the majority of state workers pay much, much less than the national average for their health insurance premiums. So Walker asking them to pay a bit more, a number that still only amounts to half the national average, doest't strike me as a bad thing.

As a private sector worker, I've seen more than my share of job loss, increased premiums, and pay freezes. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

I don't disagree in the least with your comments above. Very fair. The issue is whether or not Walker is following an appropriate, legal process to achieve his proposed outcomes. The process should matter to people. For whatever reason, too many people are willing to cut corners and infringe on people's rights.

And really, this seems to be the bigger issues for those rallying. The loss of collective bargaining rights.Again, I don't really know where I stand on this. I mean heck, if you ask some people, unions had everything to do with the auto industry collapse. And they'd probably predict a similar fate for our state if things aren't changed.

Others say the right to collectively bargain should not be removed, and that this is a fundamental right of a worker.

Hard to know what the right answer is.

Hard decisions have to be made, and I don't envy the mess Walker's inherited.

 

[Shtaym Syek]

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlhttp://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlThe state's largest teachers union Wednesday night called on all 98,000 of its members to attend rallies in Madison on Thursday and Friday, which led school districts — including Madison — to cancel classes for Thursday.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlYea, that's the way to get support from the working class. Force them to either take days off from work to take care of their children while you rally, or force them to spend their money to find babysitters so they can earn a check to pay bills.

NICE!!

So you've taken a stance in this based on what's convenient for you?I don't want to pick on you, but I've heard a lot of this today. Why not dig into the argument and figure out where you stand (political party, personal preferences aside)? It really is that complex. The unions are feeding you crap, and so is the governor's office.

Why not figure it out, rather than screaming and hollering about having to spend time with your kids?

 

[snogger]

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlhttp://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlThe state's largest teachers union Wednesday night called on all 98,000 of its members to attend rallies in Madison on Thursday and Friday, which led school districts — including Madison — to cancel classes for Thursday.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlYea, that's the way to get support from the working class. Force them to either take days off from work to take care of their children while you rally, or force them to spend their money to find babysitters so they can earn a check to pay bills.

NICE!!

If the governor really trying to gut their ability to bargin collectively like you outlined above, then maybe they should be striking. Why should they do nothing while their labor rights are being taken away?

Then strike.. Don't *Cough call in sick Cough*.. They claim Walker is "bullying" the Unions..

 

[snogger]

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlhttp://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlThe state's largest teachers union Wednesday night called on all 98,000 of its members to attend rallies in Madison on Thursday and Friday, which led school districts — including Madison — to cancel classes for Thursday.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlYea, that's the way to get support from the working class. Force them to either take days off from work to take care of their children while you rally, or force them to spend their money to find babysitters so they can earn a check to pay bills.

NICE!!

So you've taken a stance in this based on what's convenient for you?I don't want to pick on you, but I've heard a lot of this today. Why not dig into the argument and figure out where you stand (political party, personal preferences aside)? It really is that complex. The unions are feeding you crap, and so is the governor's office.

Why not figure it out, rather than screaming and hollering about having to spend time with your kids?

What is convenient for me is that everyone pay their fair share.

There is an argument to be had about collective bargaining and I have no knowledge about that state of affairs so won't even try to comprehend it.

But in regards to them having to start paying 8 percent more for their benefits, which still will be at least HALF of what a non-government employee has to pay, I say

to the "real" world.

 

[Rich Conway]

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlhttp://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlThe state's largest teachers union Wednesday night called on all 98,000 of its members to attend rallies in Madison on Thursday and Friday, which led school districts — including Madison — to cancel classes for Thursday.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlYea, that's the way to get support from the working class. Force them to either take days off from work to take care of their children while you rally, or force them to spend their money to find babysitters so they can earn a check to pay bills.

NICE!!

So you've taken a stance in this based on what's convenient for you?I don't want to pick on you, but I've heard a lot of this today. Why not dig into the argument and figure out where you stand (political party, personal preferences aside)? It really is that complex. The unions are feeding you crap, and so is the governor's office.

Why not figure it out, rather than screaming and hollering about having to spend time with your kids?

Regardless of snogger's personal stance, he does have a point above. Specifically, thousands of teachers "calling in sick" isn't exactly going to endear them to the working class. If public support is important in this fight, this isn't a very good way of building it.

 

[timschochet]

I hate to see anyone take a pay cut, especially teachers, who I believe should be paid much MORE in our society. But the problem is that progressives seem to always propose tax increases as an alternative.

If you increase taxes in Wisconsin, then you drive businesses to other states which have lesser taxes, which loses you jobs. The net result is you're probably worse off in terms of revenue than you were before.

I'm not suggesting that the governor of Wisconsin is correct; perhaps there are other ways to cut the budget which are less draconic and punishing to public employees. But raising taxes is almost never a good idea, IMO.

 

[timschochet]

I am also wondering: because Wisconsin is a smaller state than my own, and these protests are the result:

What happens when the #### hits the fan in California? Even with Gov. Moonbeam, these sorts of cuts are coming. They're inevitable. Will the public stand for them?

 

[urbanhack]

I hate to see anyone take a pay cut, especially teachers, who I believe should be paid much MORE in our society. But the problem is that progressives seem to always propose tax increases as an alternative. If you increase taxes in Wisconsin, then you drive businesses to other states which have lesser taxes, which loses you jobs. The net result is you're probably worse off in terms of revenue than you were before.

Which states? People that live in Wisconsin, love it. They aren't going anywhere.Kathy> hi.

 

[timschochet]

I hate to see anyone take a pay cut, especially teachers, who I believe should be paid much MORE in our society. But the problem is that progressives seem to always propose tax increases as an alternative. If you increase taxes in Wisconsin, then you drive businesses to other states which have lesser taxes, which loses you jobs. The net result is you're probably worse off in terms of revenue than you were before.

Which states? People that live in Wisconsin, love it. They aren't going anywhere.Kathy> hi.

People love California too. But as taxes began to rise, corporations began to leave. New start up businesses are starting up elsewhere. I'm sure people love living in Wisconsin, but companies see the bottom line as everything. Raising taxes will make your state less competitive.

 

[urbanhack]

I hate to see anyone take a pay cut, especially teachers, who I believe should be paid much MORE in our society. But the problem is that progressives seem to always propose tax increases as an alternative. If you increase taxes in Wisconsin, then you drive businesses to other states which have lesser taxes, which loses you jobs. The net result is you're probably worse off in terms of revenue than you were before.

Which states? People that live in Wisconsin, love it. They aren't going anywhere.Kathy> hi.

People love California too. But as taxes began to rise, corporations began to leave. New start up businesses are starting up elsewhere. I'm sure people love living in Wisconsin, but companies see the bottom line as everything. Raising taxes will make your state less competitive.

Not true. I know three people involved with startups in California right now.

 

[Slapdash]

I hate to see anyone take a pay cut, especially teachers, who I believe should be paid much MORE in our society. But the problem is that progressives seem to always propose tax increases as an alternative.

If you increase taxes in Wisconsin, then you drive businesses to other states which have lesser taxes, which loses you jobs. The net result is you're probably worse off in terms of revenue than you were before.

I'm not suggesting that the governor of Wisconsin is correct; perhaps there are other ways to cut the budget which are less draconic and punishing to public employees. But raising taxes is almost never a good idea, IMO.

 

[snogger]

BTW.. For those wondering, this is not affecting our School district.

I'm just tired of the power the Unions have over the states lately and feel paying 15% for your benefits compared to the 30%+ us Shmucks pay is nothing.

The teachers in our school district got the talk from the Unions about how GREAT it would be to become part of the Union.

At first they fell for it until they looked over the salaries and benefits and realized they were doing better than any other district that was under the Union label and decided..

"What do we need you for"??

 

[Orange&Blue]

Don't cut teachers' salaries. Cut their benefits. Make them pay a greater share for health care coverage and give them the option of contributing to a 401K or equivalent.

Where is anyone seeing that they are going to cut Teachers salaries Unless you mean they will need to pickup some of the cost of their pension and insurance, which by the reports is about 8 percent which is peanuts compared to what us non-government employees pay.

Under Walker's plan, state employees' share of pension and health care costs would go up by an average of 8 percent.

Not just teachers but all government employees should pay more of their health insurance and retirement benefits...just like most everyone in the private sector.

So when the private sector starts recovering giving out substantial pay increases you have no problem with the public sector getting the same, right?

 

[DiStefano]

I hate to see anyone take a pay cut, especially teachers, who I believe should be paid much MORE in our society. But the problem is that progressives seem to always propose tax increases as an alternative. If you increase taxes in Wisconsin, then you drive businesses to other states which have lesser taxes, which loses you jobs. The net result is you're probably worse off in terms of revenue than you were before.

Which states? People that live in Wisconsin, love it. They aren't going anywhere.Kathy> hi.

People love California too. But as taxes began to rise, corporations began to leave. New start up businesses are starting up elsewhere. I'm sure people love living in Wisconsin, but companies see the bottom line as everything. Raising taxes will make your state less competitive.

Not true. I know three people involved with startups in California right now.

That does it then. With your three people, we know that the 35 million in California are now competitive.

 

[urbanhack]

I hate to see anyone take a pay cut, especially teachers, who I believe should be paid much MORE in our society. But the problem is that progressives seem to always propose tax increases as an alternative. If you increase taxes in Wisconsin, then you drive businesses to other states which have lesser taxes, which loses you jobs. The net result is you're probably worse off in terms of revenue than you were before.

Which states? People that live in Wisconsin, love it. They aren't going anywhere.Kathy> hi.

People love California too. But as taxes began to rise, corporations began to leave. New start up businesses are starting up elsewhere. I'm sure people love living in Wisconsin, but companies see the bottom line as everything. Raising taxes will make your state less competitive.

Not true. I know three people involved with startups in California right now.

That does it then. With your three people, we know that the 35 million in California are now competitive.

sorry, i was trying to pull off a timschochet-anecdotalism

 

[Pipes]

Don't cut teachers' salaries. Cut their benefits. Make them pay a greater share for health care coverage and give them the option of contributing to a 401K or equivalent.

Where is anyone seeing that they are going to cut Teachers salaries Unless you mean they will need to pickup some of the cost of their pension and insurance, which by the reports is about 8 percent which is peanuts compared to what us non-government employees pay.

Under Walker's plan, state employees' share of pension and health care costs would go up by an average of 8 percent.

Not just teachers but all government employees should pay more of their health insurance and retirement benefits...just like most everyone in the private sector.

So when the private sector starts recovering giving out substantial pay increases you have no problem with the public sector getting the same, right?

Absolutely...I'm all about people being paid on merit not based on some union negociated pay scale based on years of service and not necessarily the ability of the employee. There are many state employees that are underpaid but unfortunately there are also a bunch that are protected by the union that probably wouldn't have jobs in the private sector because they just aren't very good at what they do.

 

[snogger]

Don't cut teachers' salaries. Cut their benefits. Make them pay a greater share for health care coverage and give them the option of contributing to a 401K or equivalent.

Where is anyone seeing that they are going to cut Teachers salaries Unless you mean they will need to pickup some of the cost of their pension and insurance, which by the reports is about 8 percent which is peanuts compared to what us non-government employees pay.

Under Walker's plan, state employees' share of pension and health care costs would go up by an average of 8 percent.

Not just teachers but all government employees should pay more of their health insurance and retirement benefits...just like most everyone in the private sector.

So when the private sector starts recovering giving out substantial pay increases you have no problem with the public sector getting the same, right?

and that is the plan that he is putting forth. Pay raises will be determined by Inflation and consumer price index.. NOT the Unions.

 

[Statorama]

So when the private sector starts recovering giving out substantial pay increases you have no problem with the public sector getting the same, right?

and that is the plan that he is putting forth. Pay raises will be determined by Inflation and consumer price index.. NOT the Unions.

 

[Mr.Pack]

LOL... some of you really crack me up with the "Teachers have it too good" rhetoric. If the benifits are SOOO good why don't you all get into the profession?? Here's my invite into the world of education. I mean it sounds like a CAKE job, what with all the great benefits and job security. I mean they DON'T EVEN work all year around!! I would think some of you would be lined up to get on that gravy train. I mean with the unions running amuck. I can't think of a better profession.

No one forced any of those teachers to get into teaching.

Take the whining elsewhere.

Oh and I was a teacher once. Easiest money I ever made. But I hated it, so i got out.

Sure, I bet it was easy -- you were probably one of the awful teachers who give the profession a bad name. That's usually what I've seen from folks who claim that "it was easy to be a teacher."

If it was the easiest money you ever made then you weren't working hard enough... glad you are out of the profession...

Yea that must be it.You both are good comedy. Isn't it nap time for you boys?

 

[Mr.Pack]

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlhttp://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlThe state's largest teachers union Wednesday night called on all 98,000 of its members to attend rallies in Madison on Thursday and Friday, which led school districts — including Madison — to cancel classes for Thursday.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlYea, that's the way to get support from the working class. Force them to either take days off from work to take care of their children while you rally, or force them to spend their money to find babysitters so they can earn a check to pay bills.

NICE!!

 

[snogger]

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlhttp://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlThe state's largest teachers union Wednesday night called on all 98,000 of its members to attend rallies in Madison on Thursday and Friday, which led school districts — including Madison — to cancel classes for Thursday.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.htmlYea, that's the way to get support from the working class. Force them to either take days off from work to take care of their children while you rally, or force them to spend their money to find babysitters so they can earn a check to pay bills.

NICE!!

 

[itriple]

Just heard the whole state is shutting down tommorow:

Schools

Government

State Nurses

Prisons

DMV

Police

Fire Dept

I think it will be a good day to rob a bank

 

[snogger]

Just heard the whole state is shutting down tommorow:

Schools

Government

State Nurses

Prisons

DMV

Police

Fire Dept

I think it will be a good day to rob a bank

Link??

Hard time believing that since he is protecting the unions bold above.

 

[snogger]

BTW.. reading what this Bill is doing I can only see one part they could possible have a legitimate argument for:

The legislation also requires collective bargaining units to conduct annual votes to maintain certification. Unions would lose the right to have dues deducted from worker paychecks and collective bargaining can only cover wages.

The rest, including the increase in what they pay for benefits, are absolutely needed!

 

[squidrope]

I hate to see anyone take a pay cut, especially teachers, who I believe should be paid much MORE in our society. But the problem is that progressives seem to always propose tax increases as an alternative. If you increase taxes in Wisconsin, then you drive businesses to other states which have lesser taxes, which loses you jobs. The net result is you're probably worse off in terms of revenue than you were before. I'm not suggesting that the governor of Wisconsin is correct; perhaps there are other ways to cut the budget which are less draconic and punishing to public employees. But raising taxes is almost never a good idea, IMO.

So many words.So little content.