Head to head: Shanahan leads 2-1.1997 week 15 @ PIT: PIT wins 35-241997 AFC title game @ PIT: DEN wins 24-212003 week 6 @ DEN: DEN wins 17-14Bill Cowher: 137-81-1.628 winning perentageMike Shanahan: 118-73-0.618 winning percentageMike Shanahan without his best player (John Elway)63-44.589 winning percentageBill Cowher without his best player (Jerome Bettis)52-25-1.667 winning percentagePostseason:Shanahan: 7-4, including 2 super bowl winsShanahan without Elway: 0-3Cowher: 8-9, including one AFC titleCowher without Bettis: 3-4, including one AFC title
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Shanahan or Cowher (1 Viewer)
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Both are definitely in the top 7 or 8 as far as NFL head coaches go, but I have to go with Shanahan. He has won two Super Bowl's while Cowher seems to lose AFC title games at home every year. Shanahan's edge as a playoff coach gives him the edge. And before anyone says anything about Shanahan not winning a playoff game without John Elway, Bill Belichick has never won a playoff game without Tom Brady and Bill Walsh without Joe Montana, so if Shanny is going to get held down because of that, then so should Belichick and Walsh.
Dogs of war
Footballguy
When Cowher can win the big game we can put him in with Shanahan. Untill then, he's just a "Good" coach. This is a no brainer for me.His patented "Lets Go, Lets Go" hasn't gotten him squat.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Yeah, I'm biased, but at this point, Shanahan has never even won a single playoff game without Elway under center. I'll easily take Cowher. Cowher has made it to 5 AFC Championship games without anything to write home about at QB. You might think it's very impressive for him to have GOTTEN to 5 AFCC (winning 1) in a decade and a half with guys like O'Donnell, Tomczak, Stewart, Maddox, and a rookie as the QB. Knock him for his conservative playcalling like some people do, but I'll point to his record that's something like 95-1-1 in games that he lead by at least 10 points.
Cowher isn't a perfect coach, but the biggest reason for his playoff failures is the fact that he went into the AFC Championship games with nothing but mediocrity at quarterback. If you want to blame him for not fixing the position over those years, that's fine. The only AFC Championship they lost that I feel they were the better team was the 1994 AFCC against San Diego.
In 1997, there was a glaring difference between John Elway and Kordell Stewart. The Steelers lost by 3.
In 2001, it was Kordell versus Brady. It was special teams that cost the Steelers that year.
And last year, as good as Roethlisberger was, he was still a rookie QB who had hit a wall, taking his team up against Brady and the Pats.
A difference that big at QB is very difficult to overcome. Even in Super Bowl 30, it was O'Donnell's interceptions that ended the Steelers' chances to win.
Edit to add that if Cowher had Elway as a QB, he'd have at least 2 Super Bowls too.
Cowher isn't a perfect coach, but the biggest reason for his playoff failures is the fact that he went into the AFC Championship games with nothing but mediocrity at quarterback. If you want to blame him for not fixing the position over those years, that's fine. The only AFC Championship they lost that I feel they were the better team was the 1994 AFCC against San Diego.
In 1997, there was a glaring difference between John Elway and Kordell Stewart. The Steelers lost by 3.
In 2001, it was Kordell versus Brady. It was special teams that cost the Steelers that year.
And last year, as good as Roethlisberger was, he was still a rookie QB who had hit a wall, taking his team up against Brady and the Pats.
A difference that big at QB is very difficult to overcome. Even in Super Bowl 30, it was O'Donnell's interceptions that ended the Steelers' chances to win.
Edit to add that if Cowher had Elway as a QB, he'd have at least 2 Super Bowls too.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
The Steelers have had plenty of good QB play under Cowher. Stewart was fantastic in '97. In '01, he was a serious MVP candidate. Maddox was great in '02. Yeah, those guys suck now, but they did have good years with the Steelers, so let's not act like Cowher got all of his teams with bad quarterbacking to the playoffs because it simple is not true.And last year's loss to the Patriots had more to do with the Steelers' defense playing terrible, not Roethlisberger.
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Steelers4Life
Footballguy
My biggest point is that Shanahan hasn't even won a single playoff game without Elway. Cowher has never had anything close to Elway but made it to 5 AFCC and 1 Super Bowl. I don't think there's even a comparison between the two.Stewart was fantastic for a 1st year QB in 1997, but his stats were only impressive because of his running. He was a 53% passer who threw 21 TDs and 17 INTs. His miscues as a passer in the AFC Championship were a HUGE reason they lost. Elway made plays, Stewart made mistakes.
And in 2001, Stewart wasn't even as good as he was in 1997. He made fewer plays and fewer mistakes, that's all. It was special teams that gave up most of the points in the Championship game.
In last year's game, both Brady and Roethlisberger threw 2 TDs. The difference is that Roethlisberger threw 3 INTs to Brady's none.
They were up against a better team in 1997, 2001, and 2004. Not many will dispute that.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Heck, I'm not talking about winning Super Bowls even. I'm talking about Shanahan winning a single playoff game without him. That's an amazing stat to me.I know the general perception is that Shanahan is better. And I'm fine with that.
ThisGuy
Ignored by Nipsey
Shanahan.Cowher's superbowl team almost wasn't when Jim Harbaugh came extremely close to completing a Hail Mary pass to Aaron Bailey. The Colts should have been run off the field that day and had that pass been completed, it would have been when of the greatest upsets in playoff history. The whole "Shanny had Elway" arguement is weak. A great QB does not mean a SB win. Don Shula never won with Dan Marino. I think you can argue he was a better coach than both of these guys.Parcells defeated Joe Montana in SF and a high potent Bills team with his backup QB in 1990...and their D that year was nowhere near as good as some of Pitt D's in the last 10 years.Cowher chokes. It's OK to admit that. He's ALMOST a great coach.
Keys Myaths
Pokerguy
Why is this such an amazing stat?The Broncos won all their playoff games with Shanahan within the span of a few years. There's a *number* of players you could say that about.
Shanahan has never won a single playoff game without Tyrone Braxton. Man, Braxton made Shanahan what he is...Cowher never had a player as mediocre as Tyrone Braxton on his team.
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Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Yep, almost a fair comparison. Not worth responding to the Braxton comment.You'd think that at some point Shanahan would've won a single playoff game without Elway if he's that good a coach. But he hasn't. Not a single game. And that says something to me. If you look past that, cool.
Cowher has taken the brunt of the blame for the Steelers' losses in the AFCC, and he probably should as the head coach, but a lot of people use those losses to diminish everything else he's accomplished. The knock I have on Cowher is that in a few bigger games, it seems that he's abandoned the running game sooner than he normally would have, but he didn't have the QB or passing attack to make up for it.
Like I said, Cowher's not perfect, but given the same team, I'd much rather have Cowher coaching it. If Cowher had Elway all those years, this debate wouldn't even exist.
Keys Myaths
Pokerguy
You're missing my point entirely.Shanahan got all his playoff wins in a few years. Therefore, there are quite a few players, not just Elway, that you could say he never won a playoff game without.
I'm showing how that "statistic" fails...there are plenty of players you could say Shanahan has never won a playoff game "without".
Just because he's never won a playoff game without a person, doesn't mean that person *made* Shanahan.
Or else, you'd be arguing that Braxton made Shanahan.
Yet, you respond to me like I picked Shanahan. I didn't. I saw a poorly-formed argument, so I responded to *that*.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I'm sure there are a few other players who only played on the Broncos for those years. I didn't miss that. I'm just not going to compare the importance of Elway and Braxton to the championships they won. I wonder why Shanahan has never won a playoff game without Elway.
One of the things I pointed out is that while Shanahan has never even won a single playoff game without Elway, Cowher has made 5 AFCC and 1 Super Bowl in a decade and a half with teams QBed by O'Donnell, Stewart, and rookie Roethlisberger... with a little Tomczak and Maddox sprinkled in.
If that's a weak point, so be it. If you picked Cowher like I did, what was your reasoning?
Keys Myaths
Pokerguy
I didn't.I didn't pick either...like I said, I saw the argument, and decided to get into a discussion...mainly out of curiosity. I really don't care who the better coach is.
In all honesty, they're about equal to me.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I will say it one time and I will say it loud since some of you seem to be missing it:
IF YOU ARE GOING TO KNOCK MIKE SHANAHAN FOR NOT WINNING A PLAYOFF GAME YET WITHOUT JOHN ELWAY, THEN YOU HAVE TO DO THE SAME TO BILL BELICHICK FOR NOT YET WINNING A PLAYOFF GAME WITHOUT TOM BRADY.
You Steelers' fans can keep ignoring that if you want, but if so, you will merely be showing your bias, the same as acting like Cowher, whom I think is a very good coach, has won with crappy QB's every year even though he has had QB's whom have had very good years.
IF YOU ARE GOING TO KNOCK MIKE SHANAHAN FOR NOT WINNING A PLAYOFF GAME YET WITHOUT JOHN ELWAY, THEN YOU HAVE TO DO THE SAME TO BILL BELICHICK FOR NOT YET WINNING A PLAYOFF GAME WITHOUT TOM BRADY.
You Steelers' fans can keep ignoring that if you want, but if so, you will merely be showing your bias, the same as acting like Cowher, whom I think is a very good coach, has won with crappy QB's every year even though he has had QB's whom have had very good years.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
OK. Fair enough. I see them both as similar sytle coaches in that they like to establish a dominant running game. The difference is that Cowher has won AND advanced in the playoffs without a playmaker in the passing game where Shanahan clearly hasn't.I'd love to hear a reason why Shanahan is a better coach aside from, "Hey, he won 2 Super Bowls." I contend that he wouldn't have if Elway wasn't his QB, and I support that by saying he hasn't won a playoff game without him.I didn't.I didn't pick either...like I said, I saw the argument, and decided to get into a discussion...mainly out of curiosity. I really don't care who the better coach is.
I'd also love to hear why people think Shanahan hasn't won a single playoff game without Elway at QB.
Cowher isn't blameless, but he's taken a lot more criticism over the AFCC losses than he deserves and it has obviously affected people's perception of him.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Bull crap! Are you telling me Stewart wasn't a playmaker all of those years with his feet? This argument of yours has zero credibility.
You are right. I mean, take away Bill Belichick's three Super Bowl's and he is overrated, too, right?
Hmmm, let's see. They have made the playoffs 3 times in 6 seasons since Elway has retired. The first loss was to the Ravens in a game where the Broncos starting QB didn't play because of injury. The second and third losses were to the Colts, a team Denver clearly does not match up well with.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
One, this thread isn't about Bellichek. That's a whole other thing. And two, I never said Cowher had crappy QBs. I said he had mediocre QBs, and that's all they were. I posted earlier that I'd like to hear someone's opinion of WHY Shanahan hasn't won a single playoff game without Elway.
And as I posted earier...
Stewart was fantastic for a 1st year QB in 1997, but his stats were only impressive because of his running. He was a 53% passer who threw 21 TDs and 17 INTs. His miscues as a passer in the AFC Championship were a HUGE reason they lost. Elway made plays, Stewart made mistakes.
And in 2001, Stewart wasn't even as good as he was in 1997. He made fewer plays and fewer mistakes, that's all. It was special teams that gave up most of the points in the Championship game.
In last year's game, both Brady and Roethlisberger threw 2 TDs. The difference is that Roethlisberger threw 3 INTs to Brady's none.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
No, it isn't. If you are going to hold Shanahan to the "he hasn't won a playoff game without Elway" standard, then you have to do the same with Belichick and Brady.
Regardles of whether Stewart was a playmaker with his arm or his feet, he was a playmaker.
Stewart was a serious MVP candidate that season. And if special teams was to blame, then that is another part of the team that cost them a game. Bad special teams is often the coach's fault, right?
Yeah, but the Steelers defense cost them that game. They gave up way too many points and put them behind, which is why Roethlisberger was forced to throw the ball more. SImply put, Roethlisberger threw INT's and Brady didn't because he was playing from behind practically the entire game.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I said Stewart wasn't a playmaker in the passing game. And he wasn't. When his legs were taken away from him in big games, he failed miserably as a passer.And again, I'm not talking about Bellichek. I have no way of knowing how successful he'd be without Brady right now.Bull crap! Are you telling me Stewart wasn't a playmaker all of those years with his feet? This argument of yours has zero credibility.You are right. I mean, take away Bill Belichick's three Super Bowl's and he is overrated, too, right?Hmmm, let's see. They have made the playoffs 3 times in 6 seasons since Elway has retired. The first loss was to the Ravens in a game where the Broncos starting QB didn't play because of injury. The second and third losses were to the Colts, a team Denver clearly does not match up well with.
As far those 3 playoff losses, that's all fine and dandy. If a Steelers fan talks that way about Cowher's losses, he's making "excuses." Making the playoffs 3 times in 6 seasons and not winning a game isn't exactly something to be proud of.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Okay.
Look at his record in Cleveland and NE before Brady became his starter. That says it all, right?
Neither is losing 4 of 5 AFC home title games (2 of which they were more than touchdown favorites in).
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
That pretty much goes without saying. I will admit to being a Denver homer, but we are talking about the winningest coach since 1995 who has won two Super Bowl's as opposed to a very good coach whose team has repeatedly lost home playoff games.There must be a lot of Steeler homers on this board for this poll to be so close.
Well let me see.#1. The Broncos have not had as good overall team (s) as Pittsburgh has but still have made the playoffs like the Steelers in a harder Division. (IMO)OK. Fair enough. I see them both as similar sytle coaches in that they like to establish a dominant running game. The difference is that Cowher has won AND advanced in the playoffs without a playmaker in the passing game where Shanahan clearly hasn't.I'd love to hear a reason why Shanahan is a better coach aside from, "Hey, he won 2 Super Bowls." I contend that he wouldn't have if Elway wasn't his QB, and I support that by saying he hasn't won a playoff game without him.I didn't.I didn't pick either...like I said, I saw the argument, and decided to get into a discussion...mainly out of curiosity. I really don't care who the better coach is.
I'd also love to hear why people think Shanahan hasn't won a single playoff game without Elway at QB.
Cowher isn't blameless, but he's taken a lot more criticism over the AFCC losses than he deserves and it has obviously affected people's perception of him.
#2. Have played the Colts and the Broncos just have not showed up and were out classed to the Colts. I don't care who the coach was I don't think the Broncos would of won those games.
#3. History.... Shanny 2 SB Rings Cowher 0 SB Rings. Last season Pitt could not get the job done at home against NE.
#4 Has made Jake Plummer a decent looking QB. And that to me is very impressive. But Cowher has made Tommy Maddox look decent. So I guess thats a draw...
But to be honest they are like apple and oranges. Both have flaws and both are great in areas.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
As fun as this is, I've gotta run.Cowher is a coach who has led 5 teams to an AFFC and won 1, never having anything more than mediocre QB play. He builds his offenses around running the football but has never had the QB to threaten teams down the field. He has his faults like all coaches do, but he gets the most out of his players and has never had span of more than 4 years without an AFC Championship appearance.That pretty much goes without saying. I will admit to being a Denver homer, but we are talking about the winningest coach since 1995 who has won two Super Bowl's as opposed to a very good coach whose team has repeatedly lost home playoff games.There must be a lot of Steeler homers on this board for this poll to be so close.
Shanahan is also a coach who runs the football, and he won 2 Super Bowls with one of the best QBs to ever play the game. Without him, he's never even won a playoff game.
And no, I don't care what Bellichek did or didn't do, because I DON'T know what he would do without Brady. Do I think they would've won the Super Bowls they did without Brady? No, I don't. But that's not for this thread.
Irish
Footballguy
That is just an idiotic statement to make. Of course Belichick has not won a playoff game without Brady, cause BRADY IS STILL ON THE TEAM. Elway has been retired for how many years? Shanahan does not have 1 single win in the playoffs since. I laugh at the posters who claim that Cowher has had great qbs and have used Kordell Stewart and Maddox as examples.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Cowher made Maddox look decent for one season. One. Plummer, who was a turnover machine in Arizona, has made progress each season under Shanahan and is now rarely turning the ball over. The job Shanny has done with Plummer is marvelous.#4 Has made Jake Plummer a decent looking QB. And that to me is very impressive. But Cowher has made Tommy Maddox look decent. So I guess thats a draw...
Belichick has coached plenty of seasons without Brady (in Cleveland and 2000 in NE). Guess how well he did without him?And NO ONE ever said Pittsburgh had great QB's, including me. I said some Pittsburgh QB's have had good seasons, which is true. Some are trying to say that the Steelers have always had mediocre QB's, which is not the case. No, they haven't had any great QB's, but to deny that several Pitt QB's have had productive seasons is ignoring what actually happened.
rabidfireweasel
Footballguy
This all caps qupte might be more poignant if it were true. I don't think Brady was the QB in Cleveland when the Browns beat the Patriots 20-13 in 1994.
Shark Attack
Footballguy
is this a joke? one guy has never won crap and is about to lose his job very soon..wake up poster
thesurfshop19
Footballguy
People who don't do their research think that "Shanahan hasn't won a playoff game without Elway" is an insightful comment.People who do their research find out that Elway has never won a playoff game without Shanahan as a QB coach, offensive coordinator, or head coach.Interestingly enough, Elway is 0-3 in the playoffs in 6 seasons without Shanahan as his QB coach, OC, or head coach. I wonder if Shanahan had anything to do with Elway being such a great QB ....
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
pinda
Footballguy
I love these people......"Oh Shanahan hasn't won since Elway"...blah, blah, blah.Well get this genius', Elway never won anything til Shanahan got there.I'm a monster Elway fan, always have been and always will be, hell the best football moment of my life came when I went to Canton to see him get inducted.But the bottom line is this, that arguement holds no water whatsoever, Shanahan still had to coach a team to get them there and win. He still had to prepare the players, plan schemes, etc. It's not like Elway did that, yes he was a great player, but this arguement is stupid.Captain Spitball is a great coach, but he is not even close to Shanahan's level simply because of the 2 rings.Also, when the Steeler guy said that Cowher has never had a QB like Elway, well when was the last time that we had a defense like the Steelers do year in and year out. It was the run game that got Denver the superbowl folks, not Elway, as much as it hurts me to say that. And low and behold, who brought us that amazing run game.......MIKE SHANAHAN!!!!Now i'll wait for the arguement: "No he didn't, Alex Gibbs brought it in"EDITEDI just went and read back all the posts and see that I doubled up a point of thesurfshop19, sorry man didn't see it. But just goes to show that Shanahan/Elway fans in the know understand that it worked both ways.
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Brock Middlebrook
Footballguy
I agree
Irish
Footballguy
Vince Lombardi could not have won a Superbowl with those Cleveland teams, so your Belichick analogy is not a good one. Shanahan HAS had a great qb, in fact one of the all time greats, and Cowher has had only average qbs at best. I rate both coaches about even. Shanahan does have the 2 rings with Elway, but he has not won 1 playoff game since. Cowher does not have a ring, but he has won playoff games with less talent at qb overall.Cowher made Maddox look decent for one season. One. Plummer, who was a turnover machine in Arizona, has made progress each season under Shanahan and is now rarely turning the ball over. The job Shanny has done with Plummer is marvelous.#4 Has made Jake Plummer a decent looking QB. And that to me is very impressive. But Cowher has made Tommy Maddox look decent. So I guess thats a draw...Belichick has coached plenty of seasons without Brady (in Cleveland and 2000 in NE). Guess how well he did without him?And NO ONE ever said Pittsburgh had great QB's, including me. I said some Pittsburgh QB's have had good seasons, which is true. Some are trying to say that the Steelers have always had mediocre QB's, which is not the case. No, they haven't had any great QB's, but to deny that several Pitt QB's have had productive seasons is ignoring what actually happened.
GRIDIRON ASSASSIN
Footballguy
Skeletor hands down over Cowher. Two Super Bowl victories.Comparing Elway's dominance to that of 'The Bus' is comical also. It's much easier to replace a running back than a quarterback imho.The better question might be which team has the better player personnel people. I think they've both done a pretty good job reloading year after year, although Shanny's track record with first rounders isn't that great.
And if shanny would have had "The Bus" all the years with Elway he would have won all the SB's he was in. Come on man are you kidding me? I could sit here and make a dream team of players "I Shanny had....." I live in Steeler country and I'll tell you what, a steeler fan is the biggest backer of a player or coach as long as they are winning. Example: Kordel: all i would hear is how great he was when he had his good year, "best QB in the game. when he started losing, "Get rid of him he's a bum. Example 2: Cowher: a few years back when Pitts. was not doing so hot, alot and I mean ALOT of fans where calling for his job. Now they are back on the bandwagon because he WAS winning. Example 3 (has 2 parts) Tommy Maddox: AKA Tommy Gun, remember him steeler fan, the QB that was going to win it all for you, then along came Ben, Tommy fell to backup QB, as he should have, all last year and some of this year I heard this " Ben is going to be the best QB in the league, and with Tommy as his backup we have the BEST back up in the league. Ben went down and well we all know whats next, you want TOMMY GUN to get out of town. Now I know I am going to get slammed by ever steeler fan out there but I can handle it. I am used to it, I live all around them. I hear the talk between Steeler fan and Browns Fan. which brings us to the question "what is the difference between a Steelers fan and a Browns fan? Answer: The color of their Jersey!
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Hmmm, that appears to be an oversight on my part, but the fact still remains that Belichick's record as a coach is well under .500 without Tom Brady vs. with him. Shanny's record without Elway is still well over .500.
I think it is worth pointing out, too, that the AFC West has been a much better definition over the last ten years than whichever division Pittsburgh has played in. So, despite always playing in a harder division, Shanahan still has a better record and has had more success than Cowher since 1995. Steelers' fans can keep harping on the "Shanahan hasn't won a playoff game w/o Elway" thing, but the FACT remains that Shanahan has won TWO Super Bowls and Cowher has won ZERO.And if Cowher is such a great coach, why did he stick with Kordell Stewart for so long and why did he wait forever to finally get an above average QB? Everyone knows that the quarterback position is very important and you almost always have to have at least a pretty good one to win in the playoffs (unless you have a defense like the 2000 Ravens). Cowher's focus has always been on the running game and defense, which are very important, too, but his failure to really address the QB position is a major mark against him. The Brian Griese experiment was ultimately a failure in Denver, but at least Shanahan figured it out and got rid of him and moved on to another. And look what he has done with Jake Plummer. He is a far better player than he was three years ago and Shanahan deserves most of the credit for that.
thatguy
Footballguy
The reason Denver's O line is so good year in year out is due largely to Shanahan's scheme. Denver relies on smaller more athletic O lineman, which is something not many teams do. This leaves a lot of smaller guys that other teams pass on for Denver to snatch up and turn into studs.
