Shooting at Ft. Hood (1 Viewer)

[Joe Bryant]

Maybe this guy should have been flagged? Maybe? Have you read everything that has come out? He showed joy that those recruiters were killed in Kansas for goodness sakes. He wasnt red flagged because of fear of biggotry because he is Muslim. Those people could be alive right now, PCness when compared to saving peoples lives makes me want to puke.

like I said, it's easy to say this after we know what happened.very difficult to pick these guys out ahead of time though. after what happened with the school shooting at Columbine, do we start profiling all kids who listen to weird music or playing violent video games? you're making this sound much easier than it is. has nothing to do with being PC either. not sure why guys like you and Peens keep bringing that up.

I think what he's saying Aaron is that this guy showed super obvious red flags (if these things are true). Way more than something like listening to Marilyn Manson or wearing goth clothing as it would relate to the kids at Columbine. If it is true that a big reason his red flags were overlooked was for fear of appearing bigoted, then that is probably something worth discussing. J

seems like a huge reach to me that people in the military would ignore some of things that are coming to light simply "for fear of appearing bigoted". is there any evidence for a claim like this?

No idea how accurate but seeing quite a few stories like this.Fear of appearing bigoted may have contributed to Ft. Hood

http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=7837000

After he arrived at Fort Hood, Hasan was conflicted about what to tell fellow Muslim soldiers about the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, alarming an Islamic community leader from whom he sought counsel.

"I told him, `There's something wrong with you,'" Osman Danquah, co-founder of the Islamic Community of Greater Killeen, told The Associated Press on Saturday. "I didn't get the feeling he was talking for himself, but something just didn't seem right."

Danquah assumed the military's chain of command knew about Hasan's doubts, which had been known for more than a year to classmates in a graduate military medical program. His fellow students complained to the faculty about Hasan's "anti-American propaganda," but said a fear of appearing discriminatory against a Muslim student kept officers from filing a formal written complaint.

J

 

[jonessed]

Maybe this guy should have been flagged? Maybe? Have you read everything that has come out? He showed joy that those recruiters were killed in Kansas for goodness sakes. He wasnt red flagged because of fear of biggotry because he is Muslim. Those people could be alive right now, PCness when compared to saving peoples lives makes me want to puke.

like I said, it's easy to say this after we know what happened.very difficult to pick these guys out ahead of time though. after what happened with the school shooting at Columbine, do we start profiling all kids who listen to weird music or playing violent video games? you're making this sound much easier than it is. has nothing to do with being PC either. not sure why guys like you and Peens keep bringing that up.

I think what he's saying Aaron is that this guy showed super obvious red flags (if these things are true). Way more than something like listening to Marilyn Manson or wearing goth clothing as it would relate to the kids at Columbine. If it is true that a big reason his red flags were overlooked was for fear of appearing bigoted, then that is probably something worth discussing. J

seems like a huge reach to me that people in the military would ignore some of things that are coming to light simply "for fear of appearing bigoted". is there any evidence for a claim like this?

The things coming out that Hasan did and said are pretty extreme. Why do you think the military would let this slide? Incompetence? Prevalence? Some of the people who have come forward outrank him so it couldn't have been status.Fear of appearing bigoted really doesn't seem that far-fetched. There was even a quote in the earlier article where an officer stated this was the case. I suppose it could turn out to be only a partial reason, but it's definitely not a "huge reach".

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

well, I guess nobody wants to be a snitch on a fellow student. like I said, tough to know at what point you take the threat seriously enough to report it though. reporting everything obviously isn't the answer either. I'm guessing those people didn't think there was much of a chance that he would do what he did.

I imagine there will be quite a few changes as a result of this shooting in terms of how similar situations are handled in the future.

 

[ArcticEdge]

Maybe this guy should have been flagged? Maybe? Have you read everything that has come out? He showed joy that those recruiters were killed in Kansas for goodness sakes. He wasnt red flagged because of fear of biggotry because he is Muslim. Those people could be alive right now, PCness when compared to saving peoples lives makes me want to puke.

like I said, it's easy to say this after we know what happened.very difficult to pick these guys out ahead of time though. after what happened with the school shooting at Columbine, do we start profiling all kids who listen to weird music or playing violent video games? you're making this sound much easier than it is. has nothing to do with being PC either. not sure why guys like you and Peens keep bringing that up.

I think what he's saying Aaron is that this guy showed super obvious red flags (if these things are true). Way more than something like listening to Marilyn Manson or wearing goth clothing as it would relate to the kids at Columbine. If it is true that a big reason his red flags were overlooked was for fear of appearing bigoted, then that is probably something worth discussing. J

seems like a huge reach to me that people in the military would ignore some of things that are coming to light simply "for fear of appearing bigoted". is there any evidence for a claim like this?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,573469,00.html

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

The things coming out that Hasan did and said are pretty extreme. Why do you think the military would let this slide? Incompetence? Prevalence? Some of the people who have come forward outrank him so it couldn't have been status.Fear of appearing bigoted really doesn't seem that far-fetched. There was even a quote in the earlier article where an officer stated this was the case. I suppose it could turn out to be only a partial reason, but it's definitely not a "huge reach".

DrD pointed out that a lot of people in the military say/do things like this to try and avoid being deployed to war.Fair enough, that it may not have been a huge reach. I just think nobody anticipated something like this happening. If people thought this was likely or even possible, appearing bigoted would likely be the least of anyone's concerns.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Not really. If the police think that targeting all white males for extra scrutiny will cut down on child molestations then they are free to do it. The extra resource requirements would probably bankrupt them, but have at it.

And there are about 8 million Muslims living in the United States, same applies to profiling them.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Longer article. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3801716,00.html

Some saw warning signs ahead of US Army shooting

Fellow student at Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences says complained to faculty about Hasan's presentation that 'justified suicide bombings and spewed 'anti-American propaganda.' Sister: I've known my brother Nidal to be a peaceful, loving and compassionate person

Associated Press

Some who knew Nidal Malik Hasan said they saw clear signs the young Army psychiatrist, who authorities say went on a shooting spree at the Army base Fort Hood that left 13 dead and 29 others wounded, had no place in the military.

There was the classroom presentation that justified suicide bombings. Comments to colleagues about a climate of persecution faced by Muslims in the military. Conversations with a mosque leader that became incoherent.

After he arrived at Fort Hood, Hasan was conflicted about what to tell fellow Muslim soldiers about the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, alarming an Islamic community leader from whom he sought counsel.

"I told him, `There's something wrong with you,'" Osman Danquah, co-founder of the Islamic Community of Greater Killeen, told The Associated Press on Saturday. "I didn't get the feeling he was talking for himself, but something just didn't seem right."

Danquah assumed the military's chain of command knew about Hasan's doubts, which had been known for more than a year to classmates in a graduate military medical program. His fellow students complained to the faculty about Hasan's "anti-American propaganda," but said a fear of appearing discriminatory against a Muslim student kept officers from filing a formal written complaint.

"The system is not doing what it's supposed to do," said Dr. Val Finnell, who studied with Hasan from 2007-2008 in the master's program in public health at the military's Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences. "He at least should have been confronted about these beliefs, told to cease and desist, and to shape up or ship out."

Military criminal investigators continued late Saturday to refer to Hasan as the only suspect in the shootings, declining to say when charges would be filed. "We have not established a motive for the shootings at this time," said Army Criminal Investigative Command spokesman Chris Grey.

A government official speaking on condition of anonymity because the person was not authorized to discuss the case said an initial review of Hasan's computer use has found no evidence of links to terror groups, or anyone who might have helped plan or push him toward the shooting attack. The review of Hasan's computer is continuing and more evidence could emerge, the source said.

Hasan likely would face military justice rather than federal criminal charges if investigators determine the violence was the work of just one person.

Counseling and extra supervision

But Hasan's family described a man incapable of the attack, calling him a devoted doctor and devout Muslim who showed no signs that he might lash out with violence.

"I've known my brother Nidal to be a peaceful, loving and compassionate person who has shown great interest in the medical field and in helping others," said his brother, Eyad Hasan, of Sterling, Virginia, in a statement. "He has never committed an act of violence and was always known to be a good, law-abiding citizen."

Others recalled a pleasant neighbor who forgave a fellow soldier charged with tearing up his "Allah is Love" bumper sticker. A superior officer at Darnall Army Medical Center at Fort Hood, Col. Kimberly Kesling, has said Hasan was a quiet man with a strong work ethic who provided excellent care for his patients.

Still, in the days since authorities believe Hasan fired more than 100 rounds in a soldier processing center at Fort Hood in the worst mass shooting on a military facility in the US, a picture has emerged of a man who was forcefully opposed to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, was trying to get out of his late November deployment to Afghanistan and had struggled professionally in his work as an Army psychiatrist.

"He told (them) that as a Muslim committed to his prayers he was discriminated against and not treated as is fitting for an officer and American," said Mohammed Malik Hasan, 24, a cousin, told the AP from his home on the outskirts of the Palestinian city of Ramallah. "He hired a lawyer to get him a discharge."

Twice this summer, Danquah said, Hasan asked him what to tell soldiers who expressed misgivings about fighting fellow Muslims. The retired Army first sergeant and Gulf War veteran said he reminded Hasan that these soldiers had volunteered to fight, and that Muslims were fighting against each other in Afghanistan, Pakistan and the "Palestinian territories."

"I'd give him my response. It didn't seem settled, you know. It didn't seem to satisfy," he said. "It would be like a person playing the devil's advocate. ... I said, `Look. I'm not impressed by you.'"



Danquah said he was so disturbed by Hasan's persistent questioning that he recommended the mosque reject Hasan's request to become a lay Muslim leader at Fort Hood. But he never saw a need to tell anyone at the sprawling Army post about the talks, because Hasan never expressed anger toward the Army or indicated any plans for violence.



However, classmate Finnell said that Hasan made a presentation during their studies "that justified suicide bombing" and spewed "anti-American propaganda" as he argued the war on terror was "a war against Islam." Finnell said he and at least one other student complained about Hasan, surprised that someone with "this type of vile ideology" would be allowed to wear an officer's uniform.



But Finnell said no one filed a formal, written complaint about Hasan's comments out of fear of appearing discriminatory.

Hasan received a poor performance evaluation while at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, according to an official who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the case publicly. And while he was an intern at the suburban Washington hospital, Hasan had some "difficulties" that required counseling and extra supervision, said Dr. Thomas Grieger, who was the training director at the time.

Both military and civilian investigators have yet to talk with Hasan, who reportedly jumped up on a desk and shouted "Allahu akbar!", Arabic for "God is great!", at the start of Thursday's attack. He was seriously wounded by police and transferred Friday to Brooke Army Medical Center in San Antonio, and officials said late Saturday he was no longer on a respirator.

 

[ArcticEdge]

well, I guess nobody wants to be a snitch on a fellow student. like I said, tough to know at what point you take the threat seriously enough to report it though. reporting everything obviously isn't the answer either. I'm guessing those people didn't think there was much of a chance that he would do what he did.

I imagine there will be quite a few changes as a result of this shooting in terms of how similar situations are handled in the future.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...hroats-cut.html

 

[ArcticEdge]

MNF time.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

if this guy was reaching out to Al-Qaeda and doing everything that foxnews article suggests, doesn't sound like racial profiling needed to be a factor at all. plenty of reasons to take some type of action. blaming inaction on political correctness seems like an excuse and a copout to me. easier to not get involved and push the problem off on somebody else.

 

[jonessed]

Not really. If the police think that targeting all white males for extra scrutiny will cut down on child molestations then they are free to do it. The extra resource requirements would probably bankrupt them, but have at it.

And there are about 8 million Muslims living in the United States, same applies to profiling them.

Are you saying the costs of profiling muslim men would be the same as profiling white men? I'm not suggesting either, but that seems like a lopsided comparison.

 

[PizzaDeliveryGuy]

I'm sorry, something doesn't jive. There is zero chance that this guy made statements as clear and emphatic as is being reported and nothing was done.

 

[jonessed]

if this guy was reaching out to Al-Qaeda and doing everything that foxnews article suggests, doesn't sound like racial profiling needed to be a factor at all. plenty of reasons to take some type of action. blaming inaction on political correctness seems like an excuse and a copout to me. easier to not get involved and push the problem off on somebody else.

He was reported. The colonel in one of the previous articles was told there was an investigation. The CIA has come forward to Congress with the possible Al Queda link. Regardless of whether or not the link was substantial he was on their radar. People weren't pawning this off. Someone was either not paying attention or let it slide for an unknown reason.I think we are going to see some relatively high ranking officials lose their jobs over this. There were definitely mistakes made and the consequences were obviously severe.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I'm sorry, something doesn't jive. There is zero chance that this guy made statements as clear and emphatic as is being reported and nothing was done.

I don't disagree. I think that's one reason why people are interested in this.J

 

[Desert_Power]

I'm sorry, something doesn't jive. There is zero chance that this guy made statements as clear and emphatic as is being reported and nothing was done.

There is a lot beneath the surface here it seems. It is going to be interesting to see how this all shakes out. Lots of information coming out that just doesn't seem to make sense at this stage.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Not really. If the police think that targeting all white males for extra scrutiny will cut down on child molestations then they are free to do it. The extra resource requirements would probably bankrupt them, but have at it.

And there are about 8 million Muslims living in the United States, same applies to profiling them.

Are you saying the costs of profiling muslim men would be the same as profiling white men? I'm not suggesting either, but that seems like a lopsided comparison.

Bold down?

 

[Challenge Everything]

Giving up Freedoms/Safety/taking extra precautions>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Feelings being hurt/being PC

I fixed it for you.

What freedoms?

If you want to be truly safe at all times, without fear of your neighbor, you give that power to the government and in doing so you give up freedoms that you had in order to be safe. Taking extra precautions (how exactly) tells me that you would like the government to do more due diligence, which if it did, has to inhibit on a person's freedoms to do so. You want the government to profile Muslims because some are male and follow a certain sect? The government has no business doing that. If you want that be careful because tomorrow that same government, that you gave permission to do just that, might check you out and in doing so does infringe on your freedoms.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

A letter from a Muslim-American military spouse:

I wanted to let you know what life has been like for myself, being an American-Muslim military spouse, over the last few days here at (military installation withheld), since the Ft. Hood incident. When I first learned of this, I was sitting in the PX food court with my best friend whose immediate reaction was, "No offense to you, but Muslims shouldn't even be allowed in the U.S. Army." Wow, this was from my best friend here! I have heard this and similar sentiments repeatedly from various "friends," as well as people insisting it's really a terror plot. Since this happening, my Muslim husband, who is deployed to Afghanistan, has been put on duty to build a chapel on his base, as well as being told not to associate with the Afghan nationals that work there. I went shopping at the commissary and had people mumbling under their breath but loud enough to ensure that I could hear, things like, "get out of our country," "go back to your country," " F-ing Muslims," "G-Damn Muslims," and several other expletives you can insert there. Now people don't just stare at you when they see you go by wearing hijab, they glare. Last time I checked, I was born in this country, this is *my* country, and my husband is serving it and continues to serve it despite the harassment and racism he encounters. He proudly serves despite the fact that our family pays a higher price for it than many others. I have to wonder...would there be such backlash if it had been a Christian soldier that shot his fellow soldiers? Or would we let it slide and say, "What a shame, someone should have helped him so it didn't have to come to this?" I am continually amazed by how a person's religious beliefs dictate how we treat them.

The intolerance she's encountering isn't defensible, obviously, but it seems to me that this lady and others like her really ought to be directing their anger toward the radicals who give their religion a bad name. For example, mainstream Christian organizations typically bend over backwards to ostracize violent fringes of the antiabortion movement and non-violent wackos like Fred Phelps. I've never gotten why there isn't a similar, vocal movement among western Muslims.

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section...p;article=65918http://www.startribune.com/yourvoices/6937...mP:QMDCinchO7DU

http://yahyaottawa.blogspot.com/2009/11/mu...s-denounce.html

http://detnews.com/article/20091106/LIFEST...t-Hood-violence

Etc.

 

[cartel]

I wanted to add what I knew about the shooting in greater detail. I initially did not write more in depth because I was not sure what was and was not appropriate to say but now it appears that everyone that knew Hasan is talking. I knew Hasson because I was Chief Resident in residency when he was an intern at Walter Reed Army Medical Center approx 8 years ago. I sat on the initial policy committee that reviewed his performance. He was known to be non-empathic to patients and had a history of trying to convert patients to Islam. This was obviously innappropriate. He presented to the committe meeting completely disshelvled and was reprimanded for that and given a performance improvement plan. He was a loner and poorly accepted by his peers. From reports I have read since he improved little throughout his residency. Perhaps most troubling, all residents are required to do psychiatrically themed research project for graduation and then present it. His research project was about radical islam and threats that the military faced about its muslim members conflicted with their service. This presentation had little to do with medicine and failure to properly complete the project could have been grounds to keep him from graduation (especially tied with his performance). I have heard excuses recently that is "nearly impossible to have a resident fired in the military." Having been involved in the termination of two staff physicians from the military I can say it is a little difficult but certainly not impossible. Further, this underperforming resident was given a fellowship after residency. To top it off this individual was willing to try to make restitution for his scholarship so he could get out early.

Despite my knowledge of this individual, I was still shocked when I heard last week that he had killed 13 people. I do not think any of the poeple involved with him would have suspected he would have been capable of this. Still, my guess is there will be several people that will lose their military careers over this matter when the dust settles.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Still, my guess is there will be several people that will lose their military careers over this matter when the dust settles.

Thank you cartel. Much appreciate the insights. Much better than the news coverage it seems.On the losing career thing, how would that play out do you think? And with all the talk yesterday about fear of reporting a Muslim for looking like discrimination and such, do you give any stock to that?J

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Why do you think the military would let this slide? Incompetence? Prevalence? Some of the people who have come forward outrank him so it couldn't have been status.Fear of appearing bigoted really doesn't seem that far-fetched. There was even a quote in the earlier article where an officer stated this was the case. I suppose it could turn out to be only a partial reason, but it's definitely not a "huge reach".

It seems to me that as a country we should be bending over backwards to get and keep muslim soldiers in our military. I think there are justifiable reasons why we would give muslim soldiers some extra slack.

 

[Sheriff Bart]

I wanted to add what I knew about the shooting in greater detail. I initially did not write more in depth because I was not sure what was and was not appropriate to say but now it appears that everyone that knew Hasan is talking. I knew Hasson because I was Chief Resident in residency when he was an intern at Walter Reed Army Medical Center approx 8 years ago. I sat on the initial policy committee that reviewed his performance. He was known to be non-empathic to patients and had a history of trying to convert patients to Islam. This was obviously innappropriate. He presented to the committe meeting completely disshelvled and was reprimanded for that and given a performance improvement plan. He was a loner and poorly accepted by his peers. From reports I have read since he improved little throughout his residency. Perhaps most troubling, all residents are required to do psychiatrically themed research project for graduation and then present it. His research project was about radical islam and threats that the military faced about its muslim members conflicted with their service. This presentation had little to do with medicine and failure to properly complete the project could have been grounds to keep him from graduation (especially tied with his performance). I have heard excuses recently that is "nearly impossible to have a resident fired in the military." Having been involved in the termination of two staff physicians from the military I can say it is a little difficult but certainly not impossible. Further, this underperforming resident was given a fellowship after residency. To top it off this individual was willing to try to make restitution for his scholarship so he could get out early.

Despite my knowledge of this individual, I was still shocked when I heard last week that he had killed 13 people. I do not think any of the poeple involved with him would have suspected he would have been capable of this. Still, my guess is there will be several people that will lose their military careers over this matter when the dust settles.

Wow.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Why do you think the military would let this slide? Incompetence? Prevalence? Some of the people who have come forward outrank him so it couldn't have been status.Fear of appearing bigoted really doesn't seem that far-fetched. There was even a quote in the earlier article where an officer stated this was the case. I suppose it could turn out to be only a partial reason, but it's definitely not a "huge reach".

It seems to me that as a country we should be bending over backwards to get and keep muslim soldiers in our military. I think there are justifiable reasons why we would give muslim soldiers some extra slack.

Can you expand on that? Why in your opinion should we be bending over backwards to do this?J

 

[Joe Bryant]

Further, this underperforming resident was given a fellowship after residency.

I'd ask the same thing Bart did - how does this happen?Is this normal?J

 

[timschochet]

Why do you think the military would let this slide? Incompetence? Prevalence? Some of the people who have come forward outrank him so it couldn't have been status.Fear of appearing bigoted really doesn't seem that far-fetched. There was even a quote in the earlier article where an officer stated this was the case. I suppose it could turn out to be only a partial reason, but it's definitely not a "huge reach".

It seems to me that as a country we should be bending over backwards to get and keep muslim soldiers in our military. I think there are justifiable reasons why we would give muslim soldiers some extra slack.

Can you expand on that? Why in your opinion should we be bending over backwards to do this?J

Because we are in an ideological war with radical Islam, and they (the radicals) are arguing that our actions are actually a war against ALL Islam. In order to combat this viewpoint, we need to have as many Muslims on our side as possible, to demonstrate to the Islamic world (and the whole world) that it is us against the radicals, not us against the religion.

 

[Mrs. BSR]

My friend at Ft. Hood mentioned yesterday about the memorial service that is to happen today. He is so upset still and is obviously not looking forward to this service. He was the one that was friends with the woman that was pregnant that had just returned from Iraq and was getting ready to go home.

He's upset about everything and his emotions are running high. He said there are a lot of angry servicemen right now and they have stationed guards around the room of the shooter.

May the victims rest in peace and my thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends that will have to live forever with the reality that their family member/friends will never come back home.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Why do you think the military would let this slide? Incompetence? Prevalence? Some of the people who have come forward outrank him so it couldn't have been status.Fear of appearing bigoted really doesn't seem that far-fetched. There was even a quote in the earlier article where an officer stated this was the case. I suppose it could turn out to be only a partial reason, but it's definitely not a "huge reach".

It seems to me that as a country we should be bending over backwards to get and keep muslim soldiers in our military. I think there are justifiable reasons why we would give muslim soldiers some extra slack.

Can you expand on that? Why in your opinion should we be bending over backwards to do this?J

Because we are in an ideological war with radical Islam, and they (the radicals) are arguing that our actions are actually a war against ALL Islam. In order to combat this viewpoint, we need to have as many Muslims on our side as possible, to demonstrate to the Islamic world (and the whole world) that it is us against the radicals, not us against the religion.

Thanks - that's interesting. I wonder how many of the "Muslims on our side" really get seen as you're suggesting and how many are seen as Uncle Tom's or "traitors" to their faith as the radicals suggest? J

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Can you expand on that? Why in your opinion should we be bending over backwards to do this?J

For one thing, our enemy typically depicts the fighting as a war against Islam. That's a lot less convincing argument to potential terrorist recruits when there are significant numbers of muslim soldiers serving in our military. I also believe that certain members of our military have anti-muslim sentiments. Those sentiments carry over when they're in Iraq and Afghanistan interacting with civilian populations or when they're at Gitmo or Abu Ghraib. These perceptions on both sides fuel conflict. Having muslim soldiers on our side is potentially one way to change the midset of our own military members and thereby improve their abilities to change minds and diffuse conflict.

 

[timschochet]

Why do you think the military would let this slide? Incompetence? Prevalence? Some of the people who have come forward outrank him so it couldn't have been status.Fear of appearing bigoted really doesn't seem that far-fetched. There was even a quote in the earlier article where an officer stated this was the case. I suppose it could turn out to be only a partial reason, but it's definitely not a "huge reach".

It seems to me that as a country we should be bending over backwards to get and keep muslim soldiers in our military. I think there are justifiable reasons why we would give muslim soldiers some extra slack.

Can you expand on that? Why in your opinion should we be bending over backwards to do this?J

Because we are in an ideological war with radical Islam, and they (the radicals) are arguing that our actions are actually a war against ALL Islam. In order to combat this viewpoint, we need to have as many Muslims on our side as possible, to demonstrate to the Islamic world (and the whole world) that it is us against the radicals, not us against the religion.

Thanks - that's interesting. I wonder how many of the "Muslims on our side" really get seen as you're suggesting and how many are seen as Uncle Tom's or "traitors" to their faith as the radicals suggest? J

That always happens. It's inevitable that they're looked on by some people as traitors. But what choice do we have? Surely it would be worse if we treated the Muslims like Japanese Americans during World War II, as some conservatives seem to desire. Among other things, that would give the radicals a great victory: the majority of Muslims around the world would decide they are right.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Can you expand on that? Why in your opinion should we be bending over backwards to do this?J

For one thing, our enemy typically depicts the fighting as a war against Islam. That's a lot less convincing argument to potential terrorist recruits when there are significant numbers of muslim soldiers serving in our military. I also believe that certain members of our military have anti-muslim sentiments. Those sentiments carry over when they're in Iraq and Afghanistan interacting with civilian populations or when they're at Gitmo or Abu Ghraib. These perceptions on both sides fuel conflict. Having muslim soldiers on our side is potentially one way to change the midset of our own military members and thereby improve their abilities to change minds and diffuse conflict.

Interesting - thanks.J

 

[jonessed]

Why do you think the military would let this slide? Incompetence? Prevalence? Some of the people who have come forward outrank him so it couldn't have been status.Fear of appearing bigoted really doesn't seem that far-fetched. There was even a quote in the earlier article where an officer stated this was the case. I suppose it could turn out to be only a partial reason, but it's definitely not a "huge reach".

It seems to me that as a country we should be bending over backwards to get and keep muslim soldiers in our military. I think there are justifiable reasons why we would give muslim soldiers some extra slack.

I would hate to be the one to have to tell the families of the dead soldiers that their lives were spent because we wanted to cut a Muslim soldier some slack.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Why do you think the military would let this slide? Incompetence? Prevalence? Some of the people who have come forward outrank him so it couldn't have been status.Fear of appearing bigoted really doesn't seem that far-fetched. There was even a quote in the earlier article where an officer stated this was the case. I suppose it could turn out to be only a partial reason, but it's definitely not a "huge reach".

It seems to me that as a country we should be bending over backwards to get and keep muslim soldiers in our military. I think there are justifiable reasons why we would give muslim soldiers some extra slack.

:XI would hate to be the one to have to tell the families of the dead soldiers that their lives were spent because we wanted to cut a Muslim soldier some slack.

Making policy based on those sorts of considerations is the sort of thing that got us involved in Iraq in the first place.

 

[jon_mx]

Why do you think the military would let this slide? Incompetence? Prevalence? Some of the people who have come forward outrank him so it couldn't have been status.Fear of appearing bigoted really doesn't seem that far-fetched. There was even a quote in the earlier article where an officer stated this was the case. I suppose it could turn out to be only a partial reason, but it's definitely not a "huge reach".

It seems to me that as a country we should be bending over backwards to get and keep muslim soldiers in our military. I think there are justifiable reasons why we would give muslim soldiers some extra slack.

I would hate to be the one to have to tell the families of the dead soldiers that their lives were spent because we wanted to cut a Muslim soldier some slack.

No one should be cut any slack. When you are out in the field, you must be 100% certain of the loyalty of the person who has your back.

 

[jonessed]

Why do you think the military would let this slide? Incompetence? Prevalence? Some of the people who have come forward outrank him so it couldn't have been status.Fear of appearing bigoted really doesn't seem that far-fetched. There was even a quote in the earlier article where an officer stated this was the case. I suppose it could turn out to be only a partial reason, but it's definitely not a "huge reach".

It seems to me that as a country we should be bending over backwards to get and keep muslim soldiers in our military. I think there are justifiable reasons why we would give muslim soldiers some extra slack.

I would hate to be the one to have to tell the families of the dead soldiers that their lives were spent because we wanted to cut a Muslim soldier some slack.

Making policy based on those sorts of considerations is the sort of thing that got us involved in Iraq in the first place.

You're right. Religion shouldn't be used to create any kind of special treatment policy, for or against.

 

[RBM]

I havent followed the thread but have the PC people in here admitted they blew this one big time?

Talk about having your head buried in the sand.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

A letter from a Muslim-American military spouse:

I wanted to let you know what life has been like for myself, being an American-Muslim military spouse, over the last few days here at (military installation withheld), since the Ft. Hood incident. When I first learned of this, I was sitting in the PX food court with my best friend whose immediate reaction was, "No offense to you, but Muslims shouldn't even be allowed in the U.S. Army." Wow, this was from my best friend here! I have heard this and similar sentiments repeatedly from various "friends," as well as people insisting it's really a terror plot. Since this happening, my Muslim husband, who is deployed to Afghanistan, has been put on duty to build a chapel on his base, as well as being told not to associate with the Afghan nationals that work there. I went shopping at the commissary and had people mumbling under their breath but loud enough to ensure that I could hear, things like, "get out of our country," "go back to your country," " F-ing Muslims," "G-Damn Muslims," and several other expletives you can insert there. Now people don't just stare at you when they see you go by wearing hijab, they glare. Last time I checked, I was born in this country, this is *my* country, and my husband is serving it and continues to serve it despite the harassment and racism he encounters. He proudly serves despite the fact that our family pays a higher price for it than many others. I have to wonder...would there be such backlash if it had been a Christian soldier that shot his fellow soldiers? Or would we let it slide and say, "What a shame, someone should have helped him so it didn't have to come to this?" I am continually amazed by how a person's religious beliefs dictate how we treat them.

The intolerance she's encountering isn't defensible, obviously, but it seems to me that this lady and others like her really ought to be directing their anger toward the radicals who give their religion a bad name. For example, mainstream Christian organizations typically bend over backwards to ostracize violent fringes of the antiabortion movement and non-violent wackos like Fred Phelps. I've never gotten why there isn't a similar, vocal movement among western Muslims.

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section...p;article=65918http://www.startribune.com/yourvoices/6937...mP:QMDCinchO7DU

http://yahyaottawa.blogspot.com/2009/11/mu...s-denounce.html

http://detnews.com/article/20091106/LIFEST...t-Hood-violence

Etc.

I know moderate Muslims condemn this particular shooting. What I'm talking about is moderate Muslims taking their religion back from the radical fringe. That requires more work than just putting out a statement in response to a particular event.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I know moderate Muslims condemn this particular shooting. What I'm talking about is moderate Muslims taking their religion back from the radical fringe. That requires more work than just putting out a statement in response to a particular event.

How exactly are they supposed to rein in the nutjobs?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I wanted to add what I knew about the shooting in greater detail. I initially did not write more in depth because I was not sure what was and was not appropriate to say but now it appears that everyone that knew Hasan is talking. I knew Hasson because I was Chief Resident in residency when he was an intern at Walter Reed Army Medical Center approx 8 years ago. I sat on the initial policy committee that reviewed his performance. He was known to be non-empathic to patients and had a history of trying to convert patients to Islam. This was obviously innappropriate. He presented to the committe meeting completely disshelvled and was reprimanded for that and given a performance improvement plan. He was a loner and poorly accepted by his peers. From reports I have read since he improved little throughout his residency. Perhaps most troubling, all residents are required to do psychiatrically themed research project for graduation and then present it. His research project was about radical islam and threats that the military faced about its muslim members conflicted with their service. This presentation had little to do with medicine and failure to properly complete the project could have been grounds to keep him from graduation (especially tied with his performance). I have heard excuses recently that is "nearly impossible to have a resident fired in the military." Having been involved in the termination of two staff physicians from the military I can say it is a little difficult but certainly not impossible. Further, this underperforming resident was given a fellowship after residency. To top it off this individual was willing to try to make restitution for his scholarship so he could get out early.

Despite my knowledge of this individual, I was still shocked when I heard last week that he had killed 13 people. I do not think any of the poeple involved with him would have suspected he would have been capable of this. Still, my guess is there will be several people that will lose their military careers over this matter when the dust settles.

Wow.

 

[RBM]

FBI blew off killer e-mail to al QaedaBy JOHN DOYLE in Fort Hood, Texas, and CHUCK BENNETT in NYLast Updated: 11:10 AM, November 10, 2009Posted: 3:01 AM, November 10, 2009The FBI knew for nearly a year before his murderous Fort Hood rampage that psycho Army Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan had repeatedly contacted al Qaeda -- but the blundering agency last night admitted it dismissed the lead.The clueless G-men said that at the time, they simply chalked up the chilling e-mails between Hasan and a radical imam and other terror-tied Islamic figures to his "research" as an Army shrink.Outraged congressional leaders immediately called for a probe into the debacle -- and the red-faced agency vowed to get to the bottom of things itself."I think the very fact that you've got a major in the US Army contacting [a radical imam], or attempting to contact him, would raise some red flags," Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-Mich.) -- ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committee -- told the Los Angeles Times.The FBI said Hasan -- who faces a court-martial -- first turned up on its radar in December 2008.That's when he sent 10 to 20 e-mails to several terror-related Islamic figures, including Anwar Aulaqi, a radical imam from Virginia who has been openly propagandizing for al Qaeda in Yemen and who had ties to several of the 9/11 hijackers, sources told the LA Times.Those messages were intercepted by a Joint Terrorism Task Force during an unrelated investigation and later referred to FBI and Army investigators in Washington, officials said.But no alarm bells went off because the communications were consistent with Hasan's research into how US combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan affect civilians, officials insisted. The e-mails never made explicit threats or discussed plots, they added.Less than a year later, last Thursday, Hasan went on a shooting spree at the Army base in Fort Hood in Texas, killing 13 and injuring 29.Even if US authorities regarded Aulaqi's responses to Hasan as "relatively innocuous," Hoekstra told the LA Times, "I think the fact that you're getting responses should have set off red flags, regardless of the content."Federal sources admitted that Hasan was so off their radar by that point that they hadn't even been aware of his gun purchases in Texas in August.Investigators say they were still operating on the theory that Hasan, 39, acted alone.Aulaqi yesterday posted a hateful screed on his jihadi propaganda Web site titled "Nidal Hassan [sic] Did the Right Thing" and praised him as a "hero."Hasan attended the same Dar al-Hijrah mosque in Fall Church, Va., where Aulaqi was giving sermons in 2001, although it appears doubtful that the two men knew each other personally, sources said.But the mass killer's family did attend Aulaqi's service in April 2001 on the same day as two 9/11 hijackers, Nawaf al Hazmi and Hani Hanjour. Aulaqi was believed to have been a procurement agent for Osama bin Laden at the time.Also yesterday:* It emerged that Hasan warned Army doctors 18 months ago that to avoid "adverse events," the military should allow Muslim soldiers to be released as conscientious objectors. It's unclear whether anyone reported the briefing to counterintelligence or law-enforcement authorities, The Washington Post reported.* It was learned that President Obama would have to sign the death warrant if Hasan is convicted and sentenced to execution. That's what President George W. Bush did last year in another case; the defendant remains on death row.john.doyle@nypost.com

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I know moderate Muslims condemn this particular shooting. What I'm talking about is moderate Muslims taking their religion back from the radical fringe. That requires more work than just putting out a statement in response to a particular event.

How exactly are they supposed to rein in the nutjobs?

It's not something you do overnight, obviously. But ultimately it's up to moderate Muslims to distance themselves from, ostracise, and discredit the radicals. This is a cultural issue within the Islamic community, akin to how mainstrean Christian churches go out of their way to disassiciate themselves from the Lambs of God and similar violent groups. I don't think there's an easy lets-get-this-thing-done tomorrow solution. My main point is that the lady MT quoted really ought to be mad at the shooter and other radical elements for giving her religion a black eye.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I know moderate Muslims condemn this particular shooting. What I'm talking about is moderate Muslims taking their religion back from the radical fringe. That requires more work than just putting out a statement in response to a particular event.

How exactly are they supposed to rein in the nutjobs?

It's not something you do overnight, obviously. But ultimately it's up to moderate Muslims to distance themselves from, ostracise, and discredit the radicals. This is a cultural issue within the Islamic community, akin to how mainstrean Christian churches go out of their way to disassiciate themselves from the Lambs of God and similar violent groups. I don't think there's an easy lets-get-this-thing-done tomorrow solution. My main point is that the lady MT quoted really ought to be mad at the shooter and other radical elements for giving her religion a black eye.

She undoubtedly is mad at them. Why can't she also be mad at bigoted non-muslims that are treating her like ####?Also, what actions by Christian churches are you talking about?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

It's not something you do overnight, obviously. But ultimately it's up to moderate Muslims to distance themselves from, ostracise, and discredit the radicals. This is a cultural issue within the Islamic community, akin to how mainstrean Christian churches go out of their way to disassiciate themselves from the Lambs of God and similar violent groups. I don't think there's an easy lets-get-this-thing-done tomorrow solution. My main point is that the lady MT quoted really ought to be mad at the shooter and other radical elements for giving her religion a black eye.

She undoubtedly is mad at them.

Maybe. I'm not sure how you know this though, based on the quote MT provided.

Also, what actions by Christian churches are you talking about?

Moderation, a committment to nonviolence even among explicity pro-life churches, etc. Like I said, it's a more of cultural issue than any one particular action that swings a church from radical/violent to moderate/nonviolent.

 

[PizzaDeliveryGuy]

I havent followed the thread but have the PC people in here admitted they blew this one big time?Talk about having your head buried in the sand.

Congrats on screaming terrorist when you heard the guy's name and thinking you have been vindicated.Talk about having your head buried in the sand.

 

[Chadstroma]

What did the President place at the pictures? A medal? It kind of looks like a coin though.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

We were all watching the ceremony here at work and all the uniform people thought Obama did a nice job briefly talking about all 13 individuals and their contributions to defending the nation.

My friend shot the video for DOD use today and he called me last night for a long talk. Pretty emotional stuff happening up there and it sounds like everyone is in a fog.

Chad>We all thought it was a coin. Probably the Commander in Chief's coin.

 

[Joe Bryant]

What did the President place at the pictures? A medal? It kind of looks like a coin though.

Chad, Dr. D can add more but among higher ranking military people, they will often have a personal "coin". It's just for them. Think of it like an uber cool business card. They will give them out to people for special occasions. I have a friend that is a retired 3 Star. He would give his coin when someone helped him in a really good way. For mission stuff, he would give them to people that played an important role in the mission. In that case, it's almost like a coach giving out a game ball. It's not talked a lot about among civilians but it's a pretty big deal for them. I would assume President Obama was giving them one of his coins. Sort of a personal version of giving them a medal I guess you could say.J

 

[Chadstroma]

We were all watching the ceremony here at work and all the uniform people thought Obama did a nice job briefly talking about all 13 individuals and their contributions to defending the nation. My friend shot the video for DOD use today and he called me last night for a long talk. Pretty emotional stuff happening up there and it sounds like everyone is in a fog. Chad>We all thought it was a coin. Probably the Commander in Chief's coin.

President Obama did a good job. It is his strength and he has the capacity to lead and sooth in a way like Reagan or Clinton did during similar times. Both Bush Sr and W just did not have the capacity through prepared speeches. It is a welcomed ability to have in the Commander in Chief. The news did confirm that it was the coin. Thanks to both DD and Joe for answering. The most heart wrenching moments were the roll call and then at the end with the service members saluting and the family members breaking down in front of the pictures. Anyone with a heart has to be moved while watching that.

 

[culdeus]

So how are the injured people doing? Are the rest going to make it?

 

[Statorama]

What did the President place at the pictures? A medal? It kind of looks like a coin though.

Chad, Dr. D can add more but among higher ranking military people, they will often have a personal "coin". It's just for them. Think of it like an uber cool business card. They will give them out to people for special occasions. I have a friend that is a retired 3 Star. He would give his coin when someone helped him in a really good way. For mission stuff, he would give them to people that played an important role in the mission. In that case, it's almost like a coach giving out a game ball. It's not talked a lot about among civilians but it's a pretty big deal for them. I would assume President Obama was giving them one of his coins. Sort of a personal version of giving them a medal I guess you could say.J

Excellent stuff, thanks.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

What did the President place at the pictures? A medal? It kind of looks like a coin though.

Chad, Dr. D can add more but among higher ranking military people, they will often have a personal "coin". It's just for them. Think of it like an uber cool business card. They will give them out to people for special occasions. I have a friend that is a retired 3 Star. He would give his coin when someone helped him in a really good way. For mission stuff, he would give them to people that played an important role in the mission. In that case, it's almost like a coach giving out a game ball. It's not talked a lot about among civilians but it's a pretty big deal for them. I would assume President Obama was giving them one of his coins. Sort of a personal version of giving them a medal I guess you could say.J