Should the NFL have a weight limit? (1 Viewer)

[Doctor Detroit]

Pretty interesting article from George Will.

The opening of the NFL training camps coincided with the closing of the investigation into the April suicide by gunshot of Ray Easterling, 62, an eight-season NFL safety in the 1970s. The autopsy found moderately severe chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), progressive damage to the brain associated with repeated blows to the head. CTE was identified as a major cause of Easterling's depression and dementia.

In February 2011, Dave Duerson, 50, an 11-year NFL safety, committed suicide by shooting himself in the chest to spare his brain tissue for research, which has found evidence of CTE. Brain tissue of 20-season linebacker Junior Seau, who was 43 when he killed himself the same way in May, is being studied. The NFL launched a mental health hotline developed and operated with the assistance of specialists in suicide prevention.

Football is bigger than ever, in several senses. Bear Bryant's 1966 undefeated Alabama team had only 19 players who weighed more than 200 pounds. The heaviest weighed 223. The linemen averaged 194. The quarterback weighed 177.

Today, many high school teams are much bigger.

In 1980, only three NFL players weighed 300 or more pounds. In 2011, according to pro-football-reference.com, there were 352, including three 350-pounders. Thirty-one of the NFL's 32 offensive lines averaged more than 300.

Thoughts?

 

[EBF]

Wouldn't change anything. Speed is the problem as much as size.

As I said in another thread, one of the most violent collisions I can remember from the last couple years was between Dunta Robinson and DeSean Jackson, who average about 175 pounds between the two of them.

When two incredible athletes are crashing into each other at a full sprint, bad things are going to happen.

The human body wasn't made to endure football collisions.

 

[fatness]

My wife thinks there should be a weight limit for coaches. "No coach should be fatter than his players. Why would they listen to him when he's fat?"

 

[ScottNorwood]

They should do away with shoulder pads so you can't launch into someone full force

 

[ScottNorwood]

Also go back to leather style helmets

 

[ScottNorwood]

 

[ScottNorwood]

Also the big fatties usually aren't the ones injuring anyone. They are too slow.

 

[ScottNorwood]

 

[Doctor Detroit]

 

[rizzler]

Can you name me ONE professional sport that has a weight limit? (one that isn't broken into weight classes)

Would the Porn Union put a penis length limit on actors out of fear it may destroy female unionites?

Should Prince Fielder be forced gastric bypass so he can round the bases in less than the course of a weekend?

c'mon man

 

[Ilov80s]

Can you name me ONE professional sport that has a weight limit? (one that isn't broken into weight classes)Would the Porn Union put a penis length limit on actors out of fear it may destroy female unionites?Should Prince Fielder be forced gastric bypass so he can round the bases in less than the course of a weekend?c'mon man

Name another sport that allows one player to run full speed and hit a defenseless opponent? Name another sport where 300 pound men are able to hit 200 pound men? Not saying weight limits are the answer, but just because other sports do or don't, doesn't mean squat for football. Each sport has it's own unique safety issues.

 

[mbuehner]

No.

Actually what might help is to widen the field.

 

[mbuehner]

Please enlighten us to the big hits 300lbers are laying on 200lbers. The big hits almost invariably happen in the secondary and having nothing to do with mass and everything to do with velocity.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Please enlighten us to the big hits 300lbers are laying on 200lbers. The big hits almost invariably happen in the secondary and having nothing to do with mass and everything to do with velocity.

You've never seen a defensive lineman put a lick on a QB or RB? You watching the CFL?

 

[rizzler]

Please enlighten us to the big hits 300lbers are laying on 200lbers. The big hits almost invariably happen in the secondary and having nothing to do with mass and everything to do with velocity.

You've never seen a defensive lineman put a lick on a QB or RB? You watching the CFL?

Watch your lips when you speak about the CFL!!!!Saskatonians are ruthless folk.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Please enlighten us to the big hits 300lbers are laying on 200lbers. The big hits almost invariably happen in the secondary and having nothing to do with mass and everything to do with velocity.

You've never seen a defensive lineman put a lick on a QB or RB? You watching the CFL?

Watch your lips when you speak about the CFL!!!!Saskatonians are ruthless folk.

I've heard this about the ladies up there.

 

[Anonymous Internet User]

The NFL already has some momentum related rules carried over from rugby that help prevent injury due to head-on collisions (i.e., restricted movement on the line, restricted number of players at the line, etc.).

It would be easier to modify the rules than to limit player physiology.

For example, defenders could be restricted from having forward momentum at the time of snap, pre-possession contact rules could be more restrictive, etc.

 

[Sweet Love]

Can you name me ONE professional sport that has a weight limit? (one that isn't broken into weight classes)

Would the Porn Union put a penis length limit on actors out of fear it may destroy female unionites?

Should Prince Fielder be forced gastric bypass so he can round the bases in less than the course of a weekend?

c'mon man

When I chose to "get into the business", I can see this happening.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Good topic DD

I tried a couple yard ago to discuss this.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Wouldn't change anything. Speed is the problem as much as size.As I said in another thread, one of the most violent collisions I can remember from the last couple years was between Dunta Robinson and DeSean Jackson, who average about 175 pounds between the two of them. When two incredible athletes are crashing into each other at a full sprint, bad things are going to happen.The human body wasn't made to endure football collisions.

Lot less problems in pop warner when everyone hits at about the same weight. We don't allow boxers in the heavyweight division to fight in the welterweight division simultaneously. In the 70s 250-275 was pretty big...now that is pretty small at a lot of positions. The human body did not evolve into 350 lb players in 25-30 years. It is well documented that player weights increased when they banned steroids.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

'big' mike williams votes no.

 

[EBF]

Lot less problems in pop warner when everyone hits at about the same weight. We don't allow boxers in the heavyweight division to fight in the welterweight division simultaneously.

How many of those kids are running around with 4.3 speed and superhuman strength? Some of the biggest hitters I ever saw in my high school playing days were little guys. Cornerbacks and safeties in the NFL can pack a wallop, even if they don't weigh much more than the average man. Tackle football is an inherently unhealthy sport. There's no way to fix this without fundamentally changing the way the game is played.

 

[Ilov80s]

One thing the article does not address is cardiovascular and joint issues which ate also real health concerns for players that would certainly be helped by weight limits.

 

[Ilov80s]

Also, testing for HGH would be a good start.

 

[Raider Nation]

'big' mike williams votes no.

"Big" Mike Williams is Aaron Gibson's 8-year-old little brother.

 

[whatadai]

Also, testing for HGH would be a good start.

This. Priest Holmes should have had a longer and more illustrious career if it wasn't for a POS like Merriman. Oh that was your hardest hit? Nice job doing it with performance enhancers...Priest Holmes did all his damage without them!

 

[Dippa]

Please enlighten us to the big hits 300lbers are laying on 200lbers. The big hits almost invariably happen in the secondary and having nothing to do with mass and everything to do with velocity.

Sedrick Ellis (307 lbs) on Kevin Kolb (213 lbs)...injured. Ironically, it happened just minutes before you posted this.And please consult a physics textbook if you think that mass has nothing to do with force in a collision.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Should Prince Fielder be forced gastric bypass so he can round the bases in less than the course of a weekend?

Prince actualy moves fairly fast as long as you don't leave any food in the basepaths.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Please enlighten us to the big hits 300lbers are laying on 200lbers. The big hits almost invariably happen in the secondary and having nothing to do with mass and everything to do with velocity.

Sedrick Ellis (307 lbs) on Kevin Kolb (213 lbs)...injured. Ironically, it happened just minutes before you posted this.And please consult a physics textbook if you think that mass has nothing to do with force in a collision.

easy solution if you put a little thought into it.expand rosters by 20.mandate playing all midgets on defense -- they aren't as fast, have lower mass, and scoring would probably be up.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Kind of weird that the article's whole premise is that the massive weight of guys today is the problem, but then the two examples it uses of former players killing themselves are both guys that played BEFORE players got quite so massive.

 

[daveR]

Limit: Minimum of 225.

 

[DiStefano]

Players can be any weight they want, but they can only wear jockstraps and can only bring an opponent down by grabbing the jockstrap.

It works for sumo.

 

[yawyaw]

Also go back to leather style helmets

Soccer players also wind up with depression, brain damage, concussions, and CTE and they don't even wear a helmet or pads.The only thing that will eliminate these injuries is changing over to flag football.

 

[[icon]]

Norwood doing WORK in here, son!

 

[rizzler]

The only thing that will eliminate these injuries is changing over to flag football.

The NFL has needed to change over to flag football for decades now, but still hasn't even attempted the move. This is, without doubt, the most efficient way to remove the serious injuries (especially mental) from the game.

We'd all still be fans. We grew up snatching flags. Hell, every American on this forum probably has a few flags hanging in and around their houses, no?

Surrounded by flags! It's natural progression

 

[Ilov80s]

Also go back to leather style helmets

Soccer players also wind up with depression, brain damage, concussions, and CTE and they don't even wear a helmet or pads.The only thing that will eliminate these injuries is changing over to flag football.

Soccer argument has nothing to do with football. Soccer players get brain injuries from years of heading the ball and receiving headbutts/elbows in attempts to head the ball.

 

[Doug B]

The hardest thing about weight limits is that you'd have a bunch of guys purposely fasting and dehydrating themselves to make weight, and then going into games with their physiology screwed up. Maybe if the weigh-ins also included sophisticated medical tests to ensure no one got onto the field in an unhealthy state (e.g. test for hydration, etc.).

 

[Ilov80s]

The hardest thing about weight limits is that you'd have a bunch of guys purposely fasting and dehydrating themselves to make weight, and then going into games with their physiology screwed up. Maybe if the weigh-ins also included sophisticated medical tests to ensure no one got onto the field in an unhealthy state (e.g. test for hydration, etc.).

It would have to be transitioned to very slowly. I don't think extreme weight cutting would be needed as much as focusing the players on maintaining proper weight as opposed to the current system that promotes adding weight.

 

[Doug B]

The NFL already has some momentum related rules carried over from rugby that help prevent injury due to head-on collisions (i.e., restricted movement on the line, restricted number of players at the line, etc.).

It would be easier to modify the rules than to limit player physiology.

For example, defenders could be restricted from having forward momentum at the time of snap, pre-possession contact rules could be more restrictive, etc.

Started an OP about this back in April ... might as well post it here:

Can NFL tackling rules be reasonably altered to make the game that much safer?

Kinda spitballing here, just trying to hash out some ideas. Here's part of the inspiration for this topic, from SI's 2011 NFL Preview issue:

Good, hard, sharp, and sure tackling is the very essence of a successful defense, and no player should hope to be placed upon a team unless he has become adept in this most important of football fundamentals. No team is going to be severely beaten, even if it has no offense at all, if it is composed of eleven good tacklers ...

—GLENN SCOBEY (POP) WARNER, May 1927

On a November Sunday in Cleveland last year, Jets quarterback Mark Sanchez completed a pass to wideout Braylon Edwards in the shallow left flat. Browns cornerback Sheldon Brown jumped forward to perform the essential job that Pop Warner had described 83 years earlier: Tackle the ballcarrier. (Huddle. Repeat.) Football plays can end in various ways: with touchdowns, field goals, incompletions, fair catches, dead-ball penalties and stepping out-of-bounds. But most end with the ballcarrier being taken to the ground by the defense. It is absolute. After a tackle, whistles are blown, the ball is spotted and the offense must draw up another play and start anew.

But tackling has also become one of the most uncertain elements in the modern NFL, altered not only by evolutions in strategy (sideline-to-sideline passing attacks supplanting between-the-numbers power running) and performance (more elusive athletes with each passing year), but also most recently by rules changes designed to protect ballcarriers from injuries by limiting concussive, helmet-to-helmet hits. The pure, unbridled, bone-jarring tackle is a fading memory.

As Brown moved up on Edwards, his instincts told him to blast headlong with little regard for the consequences, tactical or physical. There are two basic ways to tackle: either "break down" into a balanced crouch to reduce the possibility of getting juked in the open field, or barrel into the ballcarrier at full speed. Brown had played his first seven NFL seasons for the Eagles under the late defensive coordinator Jim Johnson, who gave his troops only one option.

"Coach Johnson taught us to never break down, just keep running through like knives," says Brown. "And if I miss on the correct side, one of my teammates will be right behind me, running like a bat out of you know where, and he'll make the hit and maybe force a turnover. One of the knives will hit." (Ravens coach John Harbaugh, who worked under Johnson in Philadelphia, says, "Arrow through snow" that's what Jim used to say: Attack like an arrow through snow.")

As an Eagle, Brown lived Johnson's credo. In January 2007 he laid out Saints running back Reggie Bush with a blowup hit by driving hard upfield on a swing pass, a shot so monumental it made the cover of SI six months later. But here, against the Jets, Brown hesitated. The previous month, after the notorious Oct. 17 afternoon so packed with violent, concussive hits that it became known as Black Sunday, the NFL announced it would stringently enforce rules against head shots. That clouded Brown's mind. "I tried to break down and then come up," says Brown of the play on Edwards. "He dipped his shoulder, and that got him lower than me, and I took the brunt of the hit. They talk about defenseless receivers. I put myself in a defenseless position, and I hurt my shoulder. I was confused with all the changes, and I made an adjustment." (Though his forward momentum was stopped, Edwards never did go down—four other Cleveland defenders threw themselves into the play, and the whistle blew with the Jets receiver still standing.)

It seems clear that certain types of tackling techniques that are physically riskier than others. The question I'm raising is this: can safer tackling techniques be legislated within the rules of the game of football? Here are some speculative rule changes that come to mind -- haven't considered all angles or potential game-play consequences, just brainstorming:
[*]Illegal for tacklers to leave their feet if their shoulder, chest, or head touches the ball carrier -- this means that if DB wants to blow up a WR over the middle, they cannot launch themselves like a missle. They can still run through the WR, but the fact that the ground dissipates some of the force should lessen the impact of these over-the-middle tackles. Note that the way this rule is worded, the intent is to still allow diving at a ball carries feet, or a last-second dive to grab a jersey, or tackle attempts like that. So long as there's no leaving the feet to launch the upper body into a ball carrier, the tackle is legal.

[*]Illegal for shoulder, chest, or head of tackler to touch the ball carrier if at least one hand does not touch the ball carrier -- I'd call this the "wrap-up" rule, and it also aims to discourage launching-type tackles. I considered proposing that BOTH hands must touch the ball carrier if the tackler's upper-body conacts the ball carrier, but I was thinking that might be a little too restrictive. Maybe the two-hand version of the rule could be instituted for QBs in the pocket.

[*]Institute a tackling "strike zone" -- The tackler's upper body (shoulders, helmet, chest) can only contact the ball carrier's body between the shoulders and knees. This one is actually partially in place, as explicit head shots are forbidden. Diving at a player's feet to trip them up with the hands or arms would still be legal.

[*]Relax the pass-intereference rules in favor of the defense -- Saw this proposed elsewhere. The idea is that with pass-interference rules so strongly favoring the offense, defenses have adopted the strategy ot taking hard shots at receivers to jar caught balls loose. Letting DBs guard routes more physically would give the defense another option. My corollary is to perhaps change the 5-yard-bump zone into a 10-yard zone, or even 15 yards -- bring back true bump-&-run coverage.

So ... are these kinds of proposals (not necessarily these specific ones) reasonable? How much safer can tackling rules help make the game? Enough to get us to credible, player-approved 18-game seasons? And what kinds of game-safety changes do others envision the NFL adopting in the near future?

 

[Shutout]

I'm going to go on the minority side of this (but take a different angle).

I WOULD support a weight limit. Not because I care about a 350 pound man landing on a guy going 200 or anything but because of the LONG-TERM health associated issues.

The NFL has a lot of ex-players out there with various heart and joint issues and carrying all that weight could certainly be a contributing factor. So why not discourage guys from playing at 300+? Put in a weight limit (not by position, but overall) and help save these guys wear and tear on the ticker and knees and hips and joints, etc.

Several years ago I worked with a big guy who was about 6'3" and weighed about 300. But he didn't look that big (had his weight pretty evenly distributed). He was 67 years old. He said his doc wanted him to lose weight because of strain on all the parts mentioned above,etc, and I said "You don't look fat. what's the deal?" He says he said the same thing and his doc asked him "How many men over 65 do you see walking around that are over 300 Lbs? There was some stat like only 2% of the population and 605 of that 2% had serious weight-related diabetes and heart isssues, etc. My friend also said that it was harder keeping the weight off after 50..Really harder..Snowballed.

Basically, if you want a long life with less stress on the heart and joints (that you may have banged around playing in the NFL or whatnot), and significant less risk for dieseases like diabetes, then you can't be carrying that type of weight, especially as you age.

So to me, it would be a measure by the NFL that was looking after player's long-term health and would be smart. It would have to reduce a percentage of health-related issues later, right?

 

[Dismattle]

Should'nt this post be in "free for all"? I mean if you dont like the ferocity of football, maybe consider watching golf or UFC etc.

But if it means that much to you, Id start posting in College football forums. I can almost hear the NFL report: Not much is known about this guy, he was too big & fast for Div 1 ball, but look at them combine stats..

signed Freedom: the quality, esp of the will or the individual, of not being totally constrained; able to choose between alternative actions in identical circumstances

 

[Ilov80s]

Should'nt this post be in "free for all"? I mean if you dont like the ferocity of football, maybe consider watching golf or UFC etc. But if it means that much to you, Id start posting in College football forums. I can almost hear the NFL report: Not much is known about this guy, he was too big & fast for Div 1 ball, but look at them combine stats..signed Freedom: the quality, esp of the will or the individual, of not being totally constrained; able to choose between alternative actions in identical circumstances

Fishing or are is there some satire here I am not getting?

 

[GregR]

Wouldn't change anything. Speed is the problem as much as size.As I said in another thread, one of the most violent collisions I can remember from the last couple years was between Dunta Robinson and DeSean Jackson, who average about 175 pounds between the two of them. When two incredible athletes are crashing into each other at a full sprint, bad things are going to happen.The human body wasn't made to endure football collisions.

I agree that I think speed is a bigger problem than size. I also think head hunting is a bigger problem than size.Basic physics for simple systems, 50% more mass or 50% more speed both increase the impact by 50%. But we're not talking about a simple system like inelastic pool balls. Human bodies are not inelastic, not all that extra weight gets delivered to the part of the impact that produces the injury. And the physics of head injuries would suggest the impact delivered to the brain is based mostly on the speed the target's head rebounds from the initial collision since that is what causes the brain-skull collision inside his head. Not all of the force of a hit is going to be delivered in that initial contact that causes the head to snap back. Especially if a player didn't launch, but instead went in shoulder to shoulder but their heads hit too. Going from a 200lb safety to a 300lb DL at the same speed doesn't necessarily deliver 50% more force to the head. It would deliver 50% more force overall, but a lot of that would be absorbed by the shoulder to shoulder part of the hit. I think a higher speed would translate into a harder jolt to the head for most hits that aren't outright head hunting.At least, that's how I suspect it would work.Edit to add: Somehow requiring players to actually break down and tackle rather than knifing in like the one article described, would be far more effective IMHO. Though I don't know how you enforce that. You'd probably have to get 32 owners to agree and impose that philosophy on their organizations top-down. It seems like it would be very difficult to put on officials to call in a game.

 

[Doug B]

Edit to add: Somehow requiring players to actually break down and tackle rather than knifing in like the one article described, would be far more effective IMHO. Though I don't know how you enforce that. You'd probably have to get 32 owners to agree and impose that philosophy on their organizations top-down. It seems like it would be very difficult to put on officials to call in a game.

I don't think these rules would be more difficult to call than existing rules:Illegal for tacklers to leave their feet if their shoulder, chest, or head touches the ball carrier -- this means that if DB wants to blow up a WR over the middle, they cannot launch themselves like a missle. They can still run through the WR, but the fact that the ground dissipates some of the force should lessen the impact of these over-the-middle tackles. Note that the way this rule is worded, the intent is to still allow diving at a ball carries feet, or a last-second dive to grab a jersey, or tackle attempts like that. So long as there's no leaving the feet to launch the upper body into a ball carrier, the tackle is legal.

Illegal for shoulder, chest, or head of tackler to touch the ball carrier if at least one hand does not touch the ball carrier -- I'd call this the "wrap-up" rule, and it also aims to discourage launching-type tackles. I considered proposing that BOTH hands must touch the ball carrier if the tackler's upper-body conacts the ball carrier, but I was thinking that might be a little too restrictive. Maybe the two-hand version of the rule could be instituted for QBs in the pocket.

...

Especially the first one, but I think the second one is feasible as well. Policing this kind of stuff might or might not necessitate an extra official or two to be on the field during NFL games. How important is achieving player safety without changing the nature of football too much?

 

[Warrior]

Nothing wrong with the current system. It ain't broke, no need to fix it.

People who don't play football commit suicide every day, should we institute a weight limit for everday life?

Funny how guys making millions of dollars playing a game get such special treatment and need to be coddled.

 

[Tchula]

Dang it, I thought this was about cheerleaders

 

[ScottNorwood]

Norwood doing WORK in here, son!

When Norwood enters the shark pool he doesn't wade in, he dives in head first!

 

[Doctor Detroit]

People who don't play football commit suicide every day, should we institute a weight limit for everday life?

What?

 

[Ignoramus]

No.

Actually what might help is to widen the field.

Wouldn't the extra running room create more forceful collisions? Seems to me that narrowing the field would inhibit players' ability to get a full head of steam.