ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
So are you saying USA Gymnastics had evidence she was gambling and came up with this mental health cover story?
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Simone Biles Withdraws From Competition - Thoughts? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
-OZ-
Footballguy
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
This is such a bad post.
When you think of Michael Jordan, what do you remember him more for? The years he was out of the league playing baseball, or do you think of him as one of the GOAT's?
bigbottom
Footballguy
Saw this post on social media and thought it did a good job covering points made in this thread by both @fatguyinalittlecoat and @Ramsay Hunt Experience.
This realization I had about Simone Biles is gonna make some people mad, but oh well.
Yesterday I was excited to show my daughters Kerri Strug's famous one-leg vault. It was a defining Olympic moment that I watched live as a kid, and my girls watched raptly as Strug fell, and then limped back to leap again.
But for some reason I wasn't as inspired watching it this time. In fact, I felt a little sick. Maybe being a father and teacher has made me soft, but all I could see was how Kerri Strug looked at her coach, Bela Karolyi, with pleading, terrified eyes, while he shouted back "You can do it!" over and over again.
My daughters didn't cheer when Strug landed her second vault. Instead they frowned in concern as she collapsed in agony and frantic tears.
"Why did she jump again if she was hurt?" one of my girls asked. I made some inane reply about the heart of a champion or Olympic spirit, but in the back of my mind a thought was festering:
*She shouldn't have jumped again*
The more the thought echoed, the stronger my realization became. Coach Karolyi should have gotten his visibly injured athlete medical help immediately! Now that I have two young daughters in gymnastics, I expect their safety to be the coach's number one priority. Instead, Bela Karolyi told Strug to vault again. And he got what he wanted; a gold medal that was more important to him than his athlete's health.
I'm sure people will say "Kerri Strug was a competitor--she WANTED to push through the injury." That's probably true. But since the last Olympics we've also learned these athletes were put into positions where they could be systematically abused both emotionally and physically, all while being inundated with "win at all costs" messaging. A teenager under those conditions should have been protected, and told "No medal is worth the risk of permanent injury." In fact, we now know that Strug's vault wasn't even necessary to clinch the gold; the U.S. already had an insurmountable lead. Nevertheless, Bela Karolyi told her to vault again according to his own recounting of their conversation:
"I can't feel my leg," Strug told Karolyi.
"We got to go one more time," Karolyi said. "Shake it out."
"Do I have to do this again?" Strug asked.
"Can you, can you?" Karolyi wanted to know.
"I don't know yet," said Strug. "I will do it. I will, I will."
The injury forced Strug's retirement at 18 years old. Dominique Moceanu, a generational talent, also retired from injuries shortly after. They were top gymnasts literally pushed to the breaking point, and then put out to pasture. Coach Karolyi and Larry Nassar (the serial sexual abuser) continued their long careers, while the athletes were treated as a disposable resource.
Today Simone Biles--the greatest gymnast of all time--chose to step back from the competition, citing concerns for mental and physical health. I've already seen comments and posts about how Biles "failed her country", "quit on us", or "can't be the greatest if she can't handle the pressure." Those statements are no different than Coach Karolyi telling an injured teen with wide, frightened eyes: "We got to go one more time. Shake it out."
The subtext here is: "Our gold medal is more important than your well-being."
Our athletes shouldn't have to destroy themselves to meet our standards. If giving empathetic, authentic support to our Olympians means we'll earn less gold medals, I'm happy to make that trade.
Here's the message I hope we can send to Simone Biles: You are an outstanding athlete, a true role model, and a powerful woman. Nothing will change that. Please don't sacrifice your emotional or physical well-being for our entertainment or national pride. We are proud of you for being brave enough to compete, and proud of you for having the wisdom to know when to step back. Your choice makes you an even better example to our daughters than you were before. WE'RE STILL ROOTING FOR YOU!
This realization I had about Simone Biles is gonna make some people mad, but oh well.
Yesterday I was excited to show my daughters Kerri Strug's famous one-leg vault. It was a defining Olympic moment that I watched live as a kid, and my girls watched raptly as Strug fell, and then limped back to leap again.
But for some reason I wasn't as inspired watching it this time. In fact, I felt a little sick. Maybe being a father and teacher has made me soft, but all I could see was how Kerri Strug looked at her coach, Bela Karolyi, with pleading, terrified eyes, while he shouted back "You can do it!" over and over again.
My daughters didn't cheer when Strug landed her second vault. Instead they frowned in concern as she collapsed in agony and frantic tears.
"Why did she jump again if she was hurt?" one of my girls asked. I made some inane reply about the heart of a champion or Olympic spirit, but in the back of my mind a thought was festering:
*She shouldn't have jumped again*
The more the thought echoed, the stronger my realization became. Coach Karolyi should have gotten his visibly injured athlete medical help immediately! Now that I have two young daughters in gymnastics, I expect their safety to be the coach's number one priority. Instead, Bela Karolyi told Strug to vault again. And he got what he wanted; a gold medal that was more important to him than his athlete's health.
I'm sure people will say "Kerri Strug was a competitor--she WANTED to push through the injury." That's probably true. But since the last Olympics we've also learned these athletes were put into positions where they could be systematically abused both emotionally and physically, all while being inundated with "win at all costs" messaging. A teenager under those conditions should have been protected, and told "No medal is worth the risk of permanent injury." In fact, we now know that Strug's vault wasn't even necessary to clinch the gold; the U.S. already had an insurmountable lead. Nevertheless, Bela Karolyi told her to vault again according to his own recounting of their conversation:
"I can't feel my leg," Strug told Karolyi.
"We got to go one more time," Karolyi said. "Shake it out."
"Do I have to do this again?" Strug asked.
"Can you, can you?" Karolyi wanted to know.
"I don't know yet," said Strug. "I will do it. I will, I will."
The injury forced Strug's retirement at 18 years old. Dominique Moceanu, a generational talent, also retired from injuries shortly after. They were top gymnasts literally pushed to the breaking point, and then put out to pasture. Coach Karolyi and Larry Nassar (the serial sexual abuser) continued their long careers, while the athletes were treated as a disposable resource.
Today Simone Biles--the greatest gymnast of all time--chose to step back from the competition, citing concerns for mental and physical health. I've already seen comments and posts about how Biles "failed her country", "quit on us", or "can't be the greatest if she can't handle the pressure." Those statements are no different than Coach Karolyi telling an injured teen with wide, frightened eyes: "We got to go one more time. Shake it out."
The subtext here is: "Our gold medal is more important than your well-being."
Our athletes shouldn't have to destroy themselves to meet our standards. If giving empathetic, authentic support to our Olympians means we'll earn less gold medals, I'm happy to make that trade.
Here's the message I hope we can send to Simone Biles: You are an outstanding athlete, a true role model, and a powerful woman. Nothing will change that. Please don't sacrifice your emotional or physical well-being for our entertainment or national pride. We are proud of you for being brave enough to compete, and proud of you for having the wisdom to know when to step back. Your choice makes you an even better example to our daughters than you were before. WE'RE STILL ROOTING FOR YOU!
supermike80
Footballguy
supermike80
Footballguy
Um both.
Barry Sanders was the greatest running back I've ever seen. And he quit, with no notice, the day before training camp and he screwed the Lions. As much as I loved Barry that was a terrible thing to do to his teammates and it hasn't been forgotten. It will always be mentioned when discussing his career.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
Nick Vermeil
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
One comment to folks saying she should have stepped aside sooner or known this months ago. She’s basically been working for 5 years to get to that point. Nobody goes through 5 years of intense training without 1. Having incredible mental toughness and 2. Having every intention of seeing it through.
HarryKane09
Footballguy
I’ve seen this on social media. While I agree with the greater points it is making and am glad it is making the rounds. there are a few unforced factual errors in it….
The actual circumstances and stakes of Strug’s second vault were already covered previously, so I’ll skip that part.
The senior age minimum at the time was only 14, so Atlanta was Strug’s second Olympics. Because of the toll the sport had already taken on her body, there wasn’t any expectation of Strug competing internationally after 1996. Because she was only 18, there was a possibility of competing at the NCAA level post-Olympics, but because of endorsement money she had already accepted it's highly unlikely she would have been cleared to be eligible. The Atlanta Games were probably going to be her last high-level competition no matter how her vaults in the team competition went.
Dominique Moceanu didn’t retire from injuries shortly after Atlanta. Two years later, she won the All-Around at the 1998 Goodwill Games, the biggest international gymnastics meet of that year. She was indeed a generational talent who drew comparisons to Nadia Commaneci, and injuries did derail her bid to make the 2000 Olympic team. But it’s incorrect to say Moceanu retired shortly after Atlanta when she was the de facto world champion two years later.
None of this alters Heath’s greater points. I like his main ideas and how he said them. But it bugged me that he got some of the facts wrong, especially since the truth isn’t in the way of what he’s trying to say.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Yes, I remember that. And I remember there were people at the time with the same kind of recency bias we're seeing in this thread saying that it should keep Sanders out of the Hall of Fame (it didn't, and was at most a minor footnote when he was inducted). I'm a lifelong Lions fan and was plenty mad about it at the time, but within a few years I was able to get some perspective on the situation and realized he had spent a decade sacrificing his body for a dysfunctional organization that was never going to build a winner around him. I still think he handled the timing badly, but the take that it would end up defining his career has definitely not aged well.
Dwayne Hoover
Footballguy
Have to think this type of thing has happened before. You are probably right it would have been masked as something else in the past. Seems like mental health is something athletes are more comfortable talking about lately though.
This is the third that I can think of this year and they are all pretty big names, Naomi Osaka, Matt Wolff, Simone Biles
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
What's funny is that in an earlier post I used a hypothetical of Jordan pulling out of the '98 Finals and it didn't even occur to me to instead use the real-life example of his first retirement, which just goes to show how much of a minor footnote it is to his career. (Although to be fair, if that had been the last we ever saw of Jordan it would have been a much bigger part of his legacy. As it is, we mostly think of it in the context of him returning and winning three more titles, cementing his status as the GOAT).
TwinTurbo
Footballguy
Huge Barry fan. I wouldn't say he screwed the Lions, rather the other way around. The franchise is terrible. And even if he retired before the draft, they still would have found a way to screw it up. Do they trade up to draft Ricky or Edge? Almost certainly not. They also passed on Culpepper, McAlister, and Kearse. There were 13 future Pro Bowlers and 2 Hall of Famers in the first round and I guarantee the Lions front office would have found a way to draft none of them. They had two first round picks in '99 and botched both of them, along with every other pick in that draft.
Last edited by a moderator:
flapgreen
Footballguy
Gone are the days of Kerri Strug. I haven't followed this, except for a couple blurbs I saw online. Had no idea that people were actually praising her for quitting. Again, I don't care either way if she quits or doesn't quit, but the idea of people celebrating someone for quitting is beyond my comprehension. What a weird world we now live in.
flapgreen
Footballguy
McBokonon
Footballguy
TwinTurbo
Footballguy
Because the mainstream media picks up on it now and runs stories that are essentially sourced exclusively from social media posts from people that aren't an actual source.
JaxBill
Footballguy
yeah, I don't blame her for looking out for her well being. I don't consider her a quitter but I don't consider her a hero either. I look at this situation as unfortunate and wish her the best.
Dwayne Hoover
Footballguy
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
Notice I said "what do you remember him more for? Everyone is aware of Jordan's gambling, Sanders quitting, etc., but this is not what they are generally remembered for at all. The same will go with Simone Biles. She has already won so much more then the rest that she is the GOAT.
You have people that do more natorious things and get remembered the most for that (Lance Armstrong), but Biles will always be remembered first as the GOAT.
Last edited by a moderator:
culdeus
Footballguy
Dwayne Hoover
Footballguy
I don't have a problem if this sways some opinions that this reduces her chance at being considered the GOAT
Seems like a valid criticism for a barroom argument that will never be universally agreed on anyway
Seems like a valid criticism for a barroom argument that will never be universally agreed on anyway
culdeus
Footballguy
Ehh, but she didn't have to. She already won the gold and nobody would have blinked if covid came along and she said, nah I'm done.
GoBirds
Footballguy
I wish that were true but she isn’t Brady or Jordan and not close. Their mentality is other end of the spectrum. Not that there’s anything wrong with it, she just isn’t in that group which is fine.
She’s dominated gymnastics for the past eight years, which is an eternity in that sport. This is like if Brady hadn’t been able to complete last year’s Super Bowl or Jordan had pulled out of the ‘98 Finals. Her legacy as the GOAT is secure
GoBirds
Footballguy
GoBirds
Footballguy
GoBirds
Footballguy
tri-man 47
Footballguy
Although - and probably more fitting - when people think of Scotti Pippen, an enduring memory is him checking out of a game because he wasn't going to get the last shot.
Dwayne Hoover
Footballguy
I don't think this is true. As was pointed out earlier, we would have heard that there was some kind of a physical injury, not a mental one.
Its definitely happened before
GoBirds
Footballguy
so you are disagreeing then agreeing that it wouldn’t have been handled the same 15 years ago? Interesting…..and not the same.
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
I didn't even know that about him. I had heard he was really cheap and in Vegas got the moniker 'no tippin', Pippen'.
jwb
Footballguy
Dwayne Hoover
Footballguy
The underlying issue is still the same, I thought that's what we are talking about here.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
I suppose that highlights the points raised on this page: If you're Jordan (baseball;gambling), Sanders (suddenly retiring), Brady (inflategate), Biles (suddenly dropping out), etc., you'll always be in the conversation of GOAT and leave a strong legacy of success behind...even if some blemishes exist. Being a GOAT puts the athlete under a greater microscope and more expectations.
GoBirds
Footballguy
That’s a good point, let’s hope she bounces back from this and even if not professionally she seems like a smart girl that will do fine in life. Just because she won’t end up going out on top like a Phelps is fine, there aren’t many of them.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Whether it not you think they would have is irrelevant for my analogy. All three of them are the clear GOATs of their respective sports, and even if you think this is somehow her “fault” (which it’s not) it won’t define her legacy
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
GoBirds
Footballguy
You are trying really hard to frame it as something it’s not, sorry. What she did is fine, I support her 100% but it’s also ok to call it what it is. Jordan/Brady/Phelps/Kobe etc never pulled themselves out of Finals/Super Bowls etc. It just is what it is….and that’s ok. I wish her the best.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Good point. Doing the right thing, even if it will open you up to criticism, is praiseworthy. There are a lot of misunderstandings around mental health — as evidenced by this thread — so admitting to it takes courage.
Biles is a hero for what she’s already accomplished in the sport. Dropping out of the Olympics isn’t itself heroic, but IMO the way she’s handled the past couple days has been admirable
krista4
Footballguy
I've stayed out of this one but have appreciated reading the thoughtful responses in this thread (note that I didn't say "all responses"). But the bolded shall not stand. He looks much better with the beard.
Thanks to those who have posted thoughtful responses here, whatever your viewpoint might be. It's helped me evolve my thinking on this, when at first I had some ambivalence.
Last edited by a moderator:
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
OK, I’ll explain this one more time:
I never said that those guys did that, or suggested that they would have. You said in your original post that this will will define her career. My point was that you’re falling victim to recency bias; her level of dominance prior to Tokyo was comparable to theirs, and this week doesn’t change that, any more than it would have in the (purely hypothetical) scenario where the same thing happened to Jordan or Brady
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Interesting that Joe moved it here b/c it wasn't political, but 0 surprise that the responses are almost 100% predictable based on posts in the PSF.
HarryKane09
Footballguy
Meh. There isn't a lot from Ben Shapiro's (gestures vaguely at everything about him) that suggests "let people be people" is a guiding principle of his. He's contributed to and benefited from societal polarization way too much to suddenly lament it now.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Just another reminder of the greatness of Terrell Owens, who played through a season ending injury in the Superbowl and delivered an MVP caliber performance