Society and your personal success (1 Viewer)

[adonis]

We all operate in the society in which we live.  If we start a business, we do so according to the laws set before us, protected by the legal system, facilitated by technology and infrastructure that others have invented, paid for and produced before us.  We also require an educated work force to be successful in most businesses, which relies largely on a public education system, and other protections for families to bring up kids who can be productive members of society.

If you're not a business owner, you still benefit from much of the same things they do from your job, your education, your safety, the technology you've used to gain skills, political initiatives that might both benefit and harm you, etc.

So the question is:

When you look around at what you've accomplished, however small or large, what percentage of it do you think is directly attributable to the society in which you're born (in most cases American society)?  Feel free to list other percentages you find to be important in how you achieved what you have.  Examples include (personal initiative, luck, help from friends/family, etc).

 

[Nugget]

If I was born in a cave in the South Pacific, I doubt I would be posting in the FFA right now.

 

[BobbyLayne]

White male born in the Midwest to two entrepreneurs, so I'd put my privilege around 90% or higher.

If you think I'm being farcical, try visiting Benin or Burkina Faso for your next vacation.

This year I hosted a dinner around the Holidays for friends in our church who moved to NYC from somewhere else. We ended up with 14 guests from 11 countries. Easily my favorite meal of the year.

Now that I think about it, 90% is probably low.

For reference: moved out when I was 17, paid my own way through college (1st in my family & parents were tough), about to sell our second company in the last 18 years at a favorable valuation.

I've worked hard my entire life. But on a global scale, many of the factors which contributed to my success had nothing to do with me. I hit the lottery when it came to genes, where I was born, and how my parents raised me.

#blessed

 

[kface]

White guy born to two professionals.  Public school educated.  State University.  Easily greater than 90%

Edit to add I drive on public roads every day, I enjoy the benefit of many government services, many of the doctors and nurses I have encountered have had public educations and I am secured by fire, police and military that are all public

 

[the rover]

Without society, my success would probably be measured by my survival to this age.   So about the same, I guess.

 

[Bonfire]

You didn't build that post, someone else made that happen.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Probably like 99.999%.  Without a functioning society, I would have died of disease, violence, or some other mishap long ago.  

This is not anywhere near as interesting an observation as you seem to think.  Nobody other than anarchists thinks that any of us would have anything resembling the quality of life that we enjoy today in the absence of any kind of civil society.  

 

[kface]

Probably like 99.999%.  Without a functioning society, I would have died of disease, violence, or some other mishap long ago.  

This is not anywhere near as interesting an observation as you seem to think.  Nobody other than anarchists thinks that any of us would have anything resembling the quality of life that we enjoy today in the absence of any kind of civil society.  

The interesting thing is that you can see in the poll how many people actually believe they have 'done it all themselves'

 

[wikkidpissah]

Picked just under half. Went from shanty-Irish city kid to lace-curtain suburban ease as my father made his 1st-off-the-farm deal work. Got great opportunities & greater optimism from the American Miracle and turned those into a life of experiential depth that few can match, if little in the way of success/status/riches.

My regret is that circumstance let me off the hook too often, allowed me to be clever, lazy. Been able to con myself to the comfy middle ever since i left the fast track. Wished i'd fallen so i could rise. A life lived in escape from discipline left me with none when i needed it. To change one word from a line in Citizen Kane, "if i hadn't been (a Boomer), I might have been a really great man.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

The interesting thing is that you can see in the poll how many people actually believe they have 'done it all themselves'

Yeah, I think these are folks who haven't really thought through the hypothetical.  If you had been born in Angola (for example), the odds are astronomically against you having the same living standard that you enjoy today, no matter how hard you work or apply yourself.  I assume that people answering "zero" are really saying "I took full advantage of the opportunities presented to me" as opposed to "I never encountered any opportunities at all."  

Edit: Or maybe they think that they would have become a successful warlord in the state of nature, in which case I guess they're reasonable to attribute all of their actual success to themselves rather than the society that's holding them back from conquering their neighbors.

 

[FUBAR]

90%

When you consider the sequence of events that had to happen for you to be here, it's 100%

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Everyone on this board is born into the same society more or less, and being born into a Western Democracy somewhere around the last quarter of the 20th century is the ideal time and place to be born based on what we know today. Our society doesn't provide remotely equal opportunity but it's more equal than virtually any other time and place, plus the lack of dying young that is pretty unique in historical terms. So yeah, the way the question is worded it should be 100% for everyone.

I think what adonis is likely going for requires a control phrase like, "compared to your peers" and then it gets to a comparison of how society engages with us based on other things like race, gender, intelligence, appearance, luck, work ethic, etc. 

 

[Peyton Marino]

The interesting thing is that you can see in the poll how many people actually believe they have 'done it all themselves'

I think this can mostly be attributed to people misunderstanding or not properly considering the question.

 

[AAABatteries]

I voted without reading - I've now read it and confused as to what is being asked

 

[gianmarco]

Is there actually a point to this?

 

[tommyboy]

0%. My parents are black albino gay trans Buddhists that grew up under ayotolla Khomeini and escaped to Cuba then swam to the usA during shark week. They  found me in a dumpster and then raised me as a slave until I escaped at age 14 then invented candy crush.

 

[TheAristocrat]

I voted without reading - I've now read it and confused as to what is being asked

Would you rather have had your life now or your mom birthed you in the forest and promptly ran away.

I think Adonis wants to know if The Jungle Book is true.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Voted 79%, with the remaining % attributable to willingness to work hard, get advanced education and not blame others. Those voting 0% either don't get it or don't get it.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I am glad I did not vote as I would have answered wrong after reading the thread.

I had assumed for this vote to have any meaning, it would be to compare yourself to others in the same environment.

If we are all to compare ourselves to being abandoned at birth in the outback, then the answers all have to be at 100%.

 

[adonis]

Probably like 99.999%.  Without a functioning society, I would have died of disease, violence, or some other mishap long ago.  

This is not anywhere near as interesting an observation as you seem to think.  Nobody other than anarchists thinks that any of us would have anything resembling the quality of life that we enjoy today in the absence of any kind of civil society.  

The observation itself isn't what I find interesting. It's the discussion around the topic that I was hoping would be interesting.

It's not something that's discussed very often. In fact, the opposite is discussed quite frequently.  How much I did on my own, without help, coming up from nothing, etc.  

I guarantee you that a lot of people think they don't owe much to society.  You might not, but many do.  

I find it to be something that many take for granted and was curious to see what others had to say on the subject.  Tim's gone for a while, so I figured someone should pick up a bit of the slack around here...

 

[modogg]

would be interesting to see a poll like this and compare society to direct family. 

 

[adonis]

I am glad I did not vote as I would have answered wrong after reading the thread.

I had assumed for this vote to have any meaning, it would be to compare yourself to others in the same environment.

If we are all to compare ourselves to being abandoned at birth in the outback, then the answers all have to be at 100%.

I think we have a lot of discussions about comparing ourselves to others in the "same environment" although in most cases, there are major differences between who we compare ourselves to in terms of upbringing, opportunity, luck, genetics, outside influencing factors, etc.

I'm interested to hear folks who voted a very high % discuss what that fact means to them, in terms of whether or not they owe society anything.  I'm not attempting to lead to a specific conclusion, but really interested to hear what people conclude about what to do about their debt to society.

 

[wikkidpissah]

I think we have a lot of discussions about comparing ourselves to others in the "same environment" although in most cases, there are major differences between who we compare ourselves to in terms of upbringing, opportunity, luck, genetics, outside influencing factors, etc.

I'm interested to hear folks who voted a very high % discuss what that fact means to them, in terms of whether or not they owe society anything.  I'm not attempting to lead to a specific conclusion, but really interested to hear what people conclude about what to do about their debt to society.

I didnt vote a high%, but strongly believe that much of what is wrong in America today lies in our having become 300,000,000 separate constituencies, most of whom consider comfort & acceptance a birthright.

 

[Gachi]

I'm black, grew up in a middle class two-parent home where education was strongly emphasized. Both parents are college-educated. I'm currently in the process of studying for the MCAT and plan to apply to medical school this July. 

The decisions I've made in my life are 100% because of how I was raised. 

I'm not a foster child, my father didn't desert my mother, I didn't grow up poor and on welfare. I was always very much into school, I always made the honor roll, etc. 

 

[adonis]

I think we have a lot of discussions about comparing ourselves to others in the "same environment" although in most cases, there are major differences between who we compare ourselves to in terms of upbringing, opportunity, luck, genetics, outside influencing factors, etc.

I'm interested to hear folks who voted a very high % discuss what that fact means to them, in terms of whether or not they owe society anything.  I'm not attempting to lead to a specific conclusion, but really interested to hear what people conclude about what to do about their debt to society.

I didnt vote a high%, but strongly believe that much of what is wrong in America today lies in our having become 300,000,000 separate constituencies, most of whom consider comfort & acceptance a birthright.

So from your perspective, what are your thoughts around what you owe society, and how does that impact decisions you make in your life, if at all?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'm interested to hear folks who voted a very high % discuss what that fact means to them, in terms of whether or not they owe society anything.  I'm not attempting to lead to a specific conclusion, but really interested to hear what people conclude about what to do about their debt to society.

I pay taxes.  I'm happy to pay taxes to support a court system, basic military defense, a police force, roads, an educational system, and elementary stuff like that.  I feel like I owe no more to society beyond what's necessary to maintain that level of government.  If you agree, then we're both signing on to one of the more extreme libertarian agendas of this century.

 

[adonis]

I'm interested to hear folks who voted a very high % discuss what that fact means to them, in terms of whether or not they owe society anything.  I'm not attempting to lead to a specific conclusion, but really interested to hear what people conclude about what to do about their debt to society.

I pay taxes.  I'm happy to pay taxes to support a court system, basic military defense, a police force, roads, an educational system, and elementary stuff like that.  I feel like I owe no more to society beyond what's necessary to maintain that level of government.  If you agree, then we're both signing on to one of the more extreme libertarian agendas of this century.

So paying taxes is your returning the favor to society.  How do you determine what an appropriate % is to pay?  

Also, what causes you to come down on only those services (and others I presume) that you're willing to support?  I'm honestly asking out of curiousity here...no agenda.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

So paying taxes is your returning the favor to society.  How do you determine what an appropriate % is to pay?  

Also, what causes you to come down on only those services (and others I presume) that you're willing to support?  I'm honestly asking out of curiousity here...no agenda.

Because those are the ones you're harping on.  

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I grew up lower middle class living in the city of Detroit during the days of 700 murders and then the crack epidemic.  I did poorly in school because I never tried, I aced tests without ever doing any homework to the chagrin of my teachers from 7th to 12th grade.  Society gave me very little IMO, my family just gave me the means to be successful by making sure I stayed out of jail. 

I served my country in Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, and every other #### hole.  I spent my nights and weekends for the better part of seven years getting my Bachelors Degree, it was not an easy accomplishment and I was so relieved when I actually finished. 

I would have done ok wherever I was born I think, I come from survivors and grinders (not Grindr's NTTATWWT).  I feel fortunate to have served my country and the people in it for almost 25 years now and I've seen and done more than almost anyone I know.  I gave back more than what was given to me IMO and I'm fine with that, you always need people to do this.  I took advantage of what was offered to me and never have looked a gift horse in the mouth, it's great to be an American and to be me.

 

[wikkidpissah]

So from your perspective, what are your thoughts around what you owe society, and how does that impact decisions you make in your life, if at all?

The debt is great but not specific. The debt is to posterity - life is for to live, love, leave it better than you found it. It's how we got from organic chemicals collected around hypothermal jets on the ocean floor to caring about the career track of Megyn Kelly - the relentlessness of improvement. The point of life is to add, the path to contributing lies in self-reform. There is, for us each, a beauty only we can serve and we who have the physical luxury to do so are to find it and use our all to serve and share it. All who don't are fools or fiends and, no matter how rich or successful, missing the point.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

No wait, never mind.  I owe everything to the Otises of the world. 

 

[Otis]

So paying taxes is your returning the favor to society.  How do you determine what an appropriate % is to pay?  

Also, what causes you to come down on only those services (and others I presume) that you're willing to support?  I'm honestly asking out of curiousity here...no agenda.

The society collectively decides how to spend it. 

 

[Otis]

No wait, never mind.  I owe everything to the Otises of the world. 

Out of curiosity, who might those folks be?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

No wait, never mind.  I owe everything to the Otises of the world. 

Out of curiosity, who might those folks be?

People who prosper in America.  I'm not the jealous type, I enjoy seeing people I know (even via the internet) succeed.  In hoops if you are a scorer you gotta have someone setting picks to get you open, I'm that guy Otis. 

 

[Sheriff Bart]

I'm a menace to society but girls in biker shorts are so fly to me. 

 

[Otis]

The OP's question is a bit of a strange question. I think we all define our success relative to the scope of possible outcomes--which of course directly correlates to the society we are born into. So I don't really think it can be answered in the way people are answering it. 

For example, if I were born into an island with wild people and no laws, I probably couldn't go to school and be a lawyer. Of course, that outcome wouldn't be on my yardstick of success in that society.  Maybe there I'd think that being a great coconut collector would be success. And I have enough confidence in myself to believe that I could be successful in that society too, by whatever the measure is. 

Surely the type of society and how it aligns with my natural abilities plays a role. If I were born into an art society, well, I suck at art, so I'd be at a distinct disadvantage. That said, again, I have enough faith in my own industriousness and work ethic and smarts to believe I could compensate and enjoy some personal success even if starting with that disadvantage. 

I guess that's a long way of saying I don't "attribute" my success to society; it's just the ball field we are playing on. Sure, turf might be slightly better for my skills, or indoor, but it's still just the setting. 

Now, if you're asking to what extent do I attribute my success to those around me: my family, my upbringing, and my starting lot in life WITHIN this society, that's a very different question. But that doesn't seem to be what the OP is asking, even though folks seem to be answering it that way.  

 

 

[Otis]

People who prosper in America.  I'm not the jealous type, I enjoy seeing people I know (even via the internet) succeed.  In hoops if you are a scorer you gotta have someone setting picks to get you open, I'm that guy Otis. 

I was really hoping you were talking about guys who dominate diet contests on the internet.

But I'll take one to the hoop too; and I'll buy you a beer after the game  

 

[Ministry of Pain]

It's a mix of want or desire and the opps that are laid out by our elected officials. 

Except for the fact the Fed Reserve is a private foreign bank that prints all the money for a fee to almost every country in the free world. 

Viva America

 

[tommyGunZ]

 Nobody other than anarchists thinks that any of us would have anything resembling the quality of life that we enjoy today in the absence of any kind of civil society.  

LOL.  You vastly underestimate how many folks born on third think they hit a triple.  

 

[Nugget]

Curious how this relates to accepting refugees.  We already hit the lottery being American, can't let in some women and children because ...

 

[Politician Spock]

Yeah, I think these are folks who haven't really thought through the hypothetical.  If you had been born in Angola (for example), the odds are astronomically against you having the same living standard that you enjoy today, no matter how hard you work or apply yourself.  I assume that people answering "zero" are really saying "I took full advantage of the opportunities presented to me" as opposed to "I never encountered any opportunities at all."  

Edit: Or maybe they think that they would have become a successful warlord in the state of nature, in which case I guess they're reasonable to attribute all of their actual success to themselves rather than the society that's holding them back from conquering their neighbors.

Yes there are benefits that helps entrepreneurs succeed, but there are also overburdening regulations that make it harder to succeed. The last 150 years of our society has seen the growth of corporatism, which as it continues to grow makes it harder and harder for the entrepreneur to succeed. As time goes on it becomes harder and harder and more and more people just settle for the corporate world. And I'm not talking cushy white caller corporate jobs. I'm talking working in the hardware section of walmart as opposed to owning your own hardware store, because in this day and age a person with a passion for selling hardware would be a fool to try and run his own hardware selling business.  

 

[tommyGunZ]

Yes there are benefits that helps entrepreneurs succeed, but there are also overburdening regulations that make it harder to succeed. The last 150 years of our society has seen the growth of corporatism, which as it continues to grow makes it harder and harder for the entrepreneur to succeed. As time goes on it becomes harder and harder and more and more people just settle for the corporate world. And I'm not talking cushy white caller corporate jobs. I'm talking working in the hardware section of walmart as opposed to owning your own hardware store, because in this day and age a person with a passion for selling hardware would be a fool to try and run his own hardware selling business.  

Unaffiliated mom and pop hardware stores in every town would be extremely inefficient.  

 

[Christo]

Curious how this relates to accepting refugees.  We already hit the lottery being American, can't let in some women and children because ...

I don't know of many who have a problem with the women and children . . . 

 

[Christo]

Curious how this relates to accepting refugees.  We already hit the lottery being American, can't let in some women and children because ...

I don't know of many who have a problem with the women and children . . . 

 

[Christo]

Curious how this relates to accepting refugees.  We already hit the lottery being American, can't let in some women and children because ...

I don't know of many who have a problem with the women and children . . . 

 

[Christo]

Neat board.

 

[Politician Spock]

Unaffiliated mom and pop hardware stores in every town would be extremely inefficient.  

True. But that's a different topic for discussion. They would produce more successful mom and pops, which is the topic of this thread.

 

[moleculo]

Would we consider the Cleveland Browns to be successful?

 

[adonis]

Everyone on the planet should be 100% or close to it. There's nothing of interest to discuss.

This seems to be an odd statement to make. I find it interesting that some have given answers less than 100% or close to it, and I find it interesting to understand why they did, and for those that do answer close to 100%, what are the consequences of such an admission in terms of what we owe to society, if indeed society has given us everything we know.  Again, no leading questions here in terms of looking to arrive at an answer, but more curious as to where folks fall on the various questions.  Seems interesting to me.

 

[rockaction]

Curious how this relates to accepting refugees.  We already hit the lottery being American, can't let in some women and children because ...

They might blow us up?

Seriously, most of us hit the lottery being born where we were and to whom we were born. Lucky. Lucky luck luck luck. 

And yet so many people are depressed and anxious. Go figure. I am, but I often remind myself what it must be like to walk ten miles just for dirty water. 

It's such an incredible life we lead, and yet it's wasted on so many trivialities. Oh well, enough Third World guilt for the day. I'm off and running...