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Somebody explain to me (1 Viewer)

Noahs Troopers

Footballguy
How did Lynn Swann make the HOF? Everything I've ever heard is he was the 2nd best WR on his team, his yards/catches/td totals were unimpressive to say the least. I've seen his highlights, he has a great highlight reel obviously but so does Brandon Lloyd, if Brandon gets 40-50 catches, 700 yards, 6 TDS a year and wins a few superbowls in the process will he be a HOFer?

 
How did Lynn Swann make the HOF? Everything I've ever heard is he was the 2nd best WR on his team, his yards/catches/td totals were unimpressive to say the least. I've seen his highlights, he has a great highlight reel obviously but so does Brandon Lloyd, if Brandon gets 40-50 catches, 700 yards, 6 TDS a year and wins a few superbowls in the process will he be a HOFer?
Players make the Hall of Fame for all sorts of reasons. FAME is one of those reasons. It's why Joe Namath, Lynn Swann, and Gale Sayers made it despite having unworthy total numbers. Sayers only had a couple of great seasons...really only a couple very good ones. But, his dynamic running style made him FAMOUS. He was like a gazelle. Namath was known for his brash personality and for being the first QB on a winning AFC Super Bowl team, and of course for the "guarantee".

Swann is known for some amazing catches....catches that nobody else might have been able to make. He was/is FAMOUS.

If they want to change it to the Hall of Those with Great Career Stats, then maybe Swann doesn't meet criteria. But, I personally like the fact that it's not all just about the numbers. Some players' contributions transcend that of mere numbers.

 
Because in his day he was real F'in goodPlain enough explanation for ya? Something tells me, probably not...... :no:

 
How did Lynn Swann make the HOF? Everything I've ever heard is he was the 2nd best WR on his team, his yards/catches/td totals were unimpressive to say the least. I've seen his highlights, he has a great highlight reel obviously but so does Brandon Lloyd, if Brandon gets 40-50 catches, 700 yards, 6 TDS a year and wins a few superbowls in the process will he be a HOFer?
Swann and Stallworth entered the league the same year. Swann was a first-round draft choice from USC, while Stallworth was a fourth-round pick from Alabama A&M. Given the competition each faced in college, Swann was more polished and ready to play early in his career.Swann was considered the better WR early in his career, and the numbers bear that out. Through their first five seasons together:

Swann 199 rec, 3184 yards, 34 TDs (playoffs 30-636-6)

Stallworth 140 rec, 2385 yards, 23 TDs (playoffs 24-432-5)

However, Stallworth kept getting better throughout his career. During the 1978-1979 championship seasons, they were really #1 and #1A. Arguably, Stallworth was now slightly ahead. It is Stallworth's longevity that makes his career statistics much better than Swann. Certainly, longevity is one way to define greatness. But Swann's prorated numbers still exceed Stallworth's. More to the point, when Swann retired in 1982, his numbers were better than Stallworth's in virtually every statistic.

You have to keep in mind how the game changed in the '80s. Passing statistics became much more prolific. Stallworth had an enormous 1984, going 80-1395-11. This was the same season Marino threw for 5084 yards and 48 TDs. My point is that the game opened up, so ALL receivers numbers went up in the '80s, and Swann missed out on that bonanza, whereas Stallworth was a part of it.

As to why Swann is in the Hall of Fame, clearly it's not about the numbers. But it's more than just one catch in SB X, or even all of his big game catches. I think Swann changed the expectations of what kind of athlete played WR, and what was possible at the position. His body control and the grace with which he played the game had never been seen before. Now, every team has a WR who can make acrobatic, one-hand, toe-dragging highlight reel catches, but it wasn't that way in 1974. He changed the position. Few players do that in their careers, especially one as short as Swann's.

I don't hear today's receivers mention him much anymore -- they're too young -- but for a long time, when receivers were asked who they patterned themself after, they didn't answer based on who was #1 in catches or #1 in yards. More often than any other name, they said, "I wanted to be like Lynn Swann."

That's my case for Swann.

(I apologize in advance for any stat errors. Also, in the interest of full disclosure, Swann was my favorite player as a child.)

Edited to add: It doesn't hurt Swann that he has been on broadcast television for a quarter century, or that he LITERALLY has the skills of a politician.

Also, parts of this post originally posted by me in another thread (Largent vs. Swann).

 
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Because in a big game, in his day, there wasn't another WR you would have wanted catching the ball.

 
How did Lynn Swann make the HOF? Everything I've ever heard is he was the 2nd best WR on his team, his yards/catches/td totals were unimpressive to say the least. I've seen his highlights, he has a great highlight reel obviously but so does Brandon Lloyd, if Brandon gets 40-50 catches, 700 yards, 6 TDS a year and wins a few superbowls in the process will he be a HOFer?
Players make the Hall of Fame for all sorts of reasons. FAME is one of those reasons. It's why Joe Namath, Lynn Swann, and Gale Sayers made it despite having unworthy total numbers. Sayers only had a couple of great seasons...really only a couple very good ones. But, his dynamic running style made him FAMOUS. He was like a gazelle. Namath was known for his brash personality and for being the first QB on a winning AFC Super Bowl team, and of course for the "guarantee".

Swann is known for some amazing catches....catches that nobody else might have been able to make. He was/is FAMOUS.

If they want to change it to the Hall of Those with Great Career Stats, then maybe Swann doesn't meet criteria. But, I personally like the fact that it's not all just about the numbers. Some players' contributions transcend that of mere numbers.
It's not right to include Sayers in the discussion with Swann and Namath. Sayers is the best RB I've ever seen.
 
Because in a big game, in his day, there wasn't another WR you would have wanted catching the ball.
Was there another RB you would rather have running the ball in a big game than Terrell Davis? His post-season stats were incredible . . . so does Davis get in?
 
Like Sayers Swann and Stallworth chnaged the game of football. Up unto that time team only threw when the had to with a few exceptions. Tarkengton and unitus. They also played in an era that offenses din'tfunction primarily off the pass like they do now. back then 30 passes in a game was a hugh number today 30 passes is a little less then average.Compare them to irvin who played in the passing era and doesn't have the numbers and has done nothing for the game is somehow being considered above worthy WR canidates such as Art monk

 
Because in a big game, in his day, there wasn't another WR you would have wanted catching the ball.
Was there another RB you would rather have running the ball in a big game than Terrell Davis? His post-season stats were incredible . . . so does Davis get in?
Davis is interesting to me because so many people know him and say phrases like "when he played he was the best" "he was one of the best North South runners ever to play" "Elway(one of the best QBs) couldn't win a Supe without him" etc. See I figure a small percent of the hall is NOT filled with guys that would make you say "he was the best" and remember so fondly. To some degree I think guys like TD deserve to be in and the way people talk about him is exactly what the people who created the HOF hoped would be said about their players.No I'm not saying Barry Foster and Joe Morris should be in the hall or anything like that. I just find it interesting that TD will never get in but when people talk about him they say "hall of fame phrases" about him.

 
Because in a big game, in his day, there wasn't another WR you would have wanted catching the ball.
Was there another RB you would rather have running the ball in a big game than Terrell Davis? His post-season stats were incredible . . . so does Davis get in?
Davis is interesting to me because so many people know him and say phrases like "when he played he was the best" "he was one of the best North South runners ever to play" "Elway(one of the best QBs) couldn't win a Supe without him" etc. See I figure a small percent of the hall is NOT filled with guys that would make you say "he was the best" and remember so fondly. To some degree I think guys like TD deserve to be in and the way people talk about him is exactly what the people who created the HOF hoped would be said about their players.No I'm not saying Barry Foster and Joe Morris should be in the hall or anything like that. I just find it interesting that TD will never get in but when people talk about him they say "hall of fame phrases" about him.
Good argument, Bri.I think TD's case is also hurt by the success of so many others in Denver's system. That may or may not be fair, but it's a perception that's out there.

 
How did Lynn Swann make the HOF? Everything I've ever heard is he was the 2nd best WR on his team, his yards/catches/td totals were unimpressive to say the least. I've seen his highlights, he has a great highlight reel obviously but so does Brandon Lloyd, if Brandon gets 40-50 catches, 700 yards, 6 TDS a year and wins a few superbowls in the process will he be a HOFer?
Players make the Hall of Fame for all sorts of reasons. FAME is one of those reasons. It's why Joe Namath, Lynn Swann, and Gale Sayers made it despite having unworthy total numbers. Sayers only had a couple of great seasons...really only a couple very good ones. But, his dynamic running style made him FAMOUS. He was like a gazelle. Namath was known for his brash personality and for being the first QB on a winning AFC Super Bowl team, and of course for the "guarantee".

Swann is known for some amazing catches....catches that nobody else might have been able to make. He was/is FAMOUS.

If they want to change it to the Hall of Those with Great Career Stats, then maybe Swann doesn't meet criteria. But, I personally like the fact that it's not all just about the numbers. Some players' contributions transcend that of mere numbers.
then based on that alone, BO JACKSON should be in the HOF..he had fame.he had talent.he was the best rb since jim brown....if he played an entire career the way he played his very few nfl seasons as, he would have been an all time great.its a shame what happened to him...

Swann gets in because he won it 4 times right? phil simms won it twice, had the single best SB appearance of any QB in the 40-year history of the game ..its a shame he is not in the HOF either..

 
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How did Lynn Swann make the HOF? Everything I've ever heard is he was the 2nd best WR on his team, his yards/catches/td totals were unimpressive to say the least. I've seen his highlights, he has a great highlight reel obviously but so does Brandon Lloyd, if Brandon gets 40-50 catches, 700 yards, 6 TDS a year and wins a few superbowls in the process will he be a HOFer?
Players make the Hall of Fame for all sorts of reasons. FAME is one of those reasons. It's why Joe Namath, Lynn Swann, and Gale Sayers made it despite having unworthy total numbers. Sayers only had a couple of great seasons...really only a couple very good ones. But, his dynamic running style made him FAMOUS. He was like a gazelle. Namath was known for his brash personality and for being the first QB on a winning AFC Super Bowl team, and of course for the "guarantee".

Swann is known for some amazing catches....catches that nobody else might have been able to make. He was/is FAMOUS.

If they want to change it to the Hall of Those with Great Career Stats, then maybe Swann doesn't meet criteria. But, I personally like the fact that it's not all just about the numbers. Some players' contributions transcend that of mere numbers.
then based on that alone, BO JACKSON should be in the HOF..he had fame.he had talent.he was the best rb since jim brown....if he played an entire career the way he played his very few nfl seasons as, he would have been an all time great.its a shame what happened to him...

Swann gets in because he won it 4 times right? phil simms won it twice, had the single best SB appearance of any QB in the 40-year history of the game ..its a shame he is not in the HOF either..
Didn't Charles Haley win it 5 times?Shoo-In FOR SURE!!!!

 
How did Lynn Swann make the HOF? Everything I've ever heard is he was the 2nd best WR on his team, his yards/catches/td totals were unimpressive to say the least. I've seen his highlights, he has a great highlight reel obviously but so does Brandon Lloyd, if Brandon gets 40-50 catches, 700 yards, 6 TDS a year and wins a few superbowls in the process will he be a HOFer?
Players make the Hall of Fame for all sorts of reasons. FAME is one of those reasons. It's why Joe Namath, Lynn Swann, and Gale Sayers made it despite having unworthy total numbers. Sayers only had a couple of great seasons...really only a couple very good ones. But, his dynamic running style made him FAMOUS. He was like a gazelle. Namath was known for his brash personality and for being the first QB on a winning AFC Super Bowl team, and of course for the "guarantee".

Swann is known for some amazing catches....catches that nobody else might have been able to make. He was/is FAMOUS.

If they want to change it to the Hall of Those with Great Career Stats, then maybe Swann doesn't meet criteria. But, I personally like the fact that it's not all just about the numbers. Some players' contributions transcend that of mere numbers.
then based on that alone, BO JACKSON should be in the HOF..he had fame.he had talent.he was the best rb since jim brown....if he played an entire career the way he played his very few nfl seasons as, he would have been an all time great.its a shame what happened to him...

Swann gets in because he won it 4 times right? phil simms won it twice, had the single best SB appearance of any QB in the 40-year history of the game ..its a shame he is not in the HOF either..
Jackson never played in the Super Bowl.Simms played great in his one SB. Hostetler started the other one.

Continuting the subjective part of my argument from a previous post, I would argue that Swann changed the WR position more than Jackson impacted RBs, and much more so than Simms at QB. You might argue differently, but that's why we have these discussions.

So I don't think these players are fully comparable, and more importantly, I don't think it's fame alone that got Sayers, Namath and Swann in the Hall (to list those of Fumbleweed). Namath and Swann, in particular, have iconic images from memorable Super Bowl moments in addition to a certain charismatic presence. I've long ago forgotten who said this, but I remember this quote concerning the Baseball HOF. It read something like "you don't need to look at statistics to know that Johnny Bench is a HOFer." I think some of that applies here, but again that refers back to the subjective argument.

Finally, I've heard many NFL historians say that Namath's Jets victory gave the AFL-NFL merger legitimacy, and Swann's Steeler dynasty ushered in the modern (more pass-oriented) NFL. These are major moments in the history of the league. Maybe this is true, maybe not. But that helps the images of both players.

 
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How did Lynn Swann make the HOF? Everything I've ever heard is he was the 2nd best WR on his team, his yards/catches/td totals were unimpressive to say the least. I've seen his highlights, he has a great highlight reel obviously but so does Brandon Lloyd, if Brandon gets 40-50 catches, 700 yards, 6 TDS a year and wins a few superbowls in the process will he be a HOFer?
Players make the Hall of Fame for all sorts of reasons. FAME is one of those reasons. It's why Joe Namath, Lynn Swann, and Gale Sayers made it despite having unworthy total numbers. Sayers only had a couple of great seasons...really only a couple very good ones. But, his dynamic running style made him FAMOUS. He was like a gazelle. Namath was known for his brash personality and for being the first QB on a winning AFC Super Bowl team, and of course for the "guarantee".

Swann is known for some amazing catches....catches that nobody else might have been able to make. He was/is FAMOUS.

If they want to change it to the Hall of Those with Great Career Stats, then maybe Swann doesn't meet criteria. But, I personally like the fact that it's not all just about the numbers. Some players' contributions transcend that of mere numbers.
I like your post and agree with it for the most part, but I think you sold Sayers short.From a post in which I attempted to refute someone's use of Sayers as justification for Terrell Davis to make the HOF:

I think Davis has just as strong a case as Sayers did
I must disagree.From Pro Football Hall of Fame:

Gale Eugene Sayers. . .Kansas All-America. . .Exceptional break-away runner. . .Scored rookie record 22 TDs, 132 points, 1965. . .Led NFL rushers, 1966, 1969. . .Named all-time NFL halfback, 1969. . . All-NFL five straight years. . .Player of Game in three Pro Bowls. . .Career totals: 9,435 combined net yards, 4,956 yards rushing, 336 points. . . NFL lifetime kickoff return leader. . .Born May 30, 1943, in Wichita, Kansas.

Gale Sayers burst upon the pro football scene in 1965 with the kind of an impact that the sport had not felt in many years. It is difficult to imagine a more dynamic debut than the one he enjoyed as a rookie. In his first heavy pre-season action, he raced 77 yards on a punt return, 93 yards on a kickoff return, and then startled everyone with a 25-yard scoring pass against the Los Angeles Rams.

In regular season, he scored four touchdowns, including a 96-yard game breaking kickoff return, against the Minnesota Vikings. And, in the next-to-last game, playing on a muddy field that would have stalled most runners, Gale scored a record-tying six touchdowns against the San Francisco 49ers. Included in his sensational spree were an 80-yard pass-run play, a 50-yard rush and a 65-yard punt return. For the entire season, Gale scored 22 touchdowns and 132 points, both then-rookie records.

Quiet, unassuming, and always ready to compliment a teammate for a key block, Sayers continued to sizzle in 1967 and well into the 1968 season. Then, in the ninth game, Sayers suffered a knee injury that required immediate surgery.

After a tortuous rehabilitation program, Gale came back in 1969 in a most spectacular manner, winding up with his second 1,000-yard rushing season and universal Comeback of the Year honors. But injuries continued to take their toll and, just before the 1972 season, Gale finally had to call it quits.

In his relatively short career, he compiled a record that can never be forgotten. His totals show 9,435 combined net yards, 4,956 yards rushing, and 336 points scored. At the time of his retirement he was the NFL's all-time leader in kickoff returns. He won All-NFL honors five straight years and was named Offensive Player of the Game in three of the four Pro Bowls in which he played.
Though not clearly stated above, Sayers was ROY in 1965.Sayers was Michael Vick electric. His career averages:

- 5.0 yards per rush (Davis 4.6)

- 11.7 yards per catch (Davis 7.6)

- 14.5 yards per punt return

- 30.6 yards per kickoff return

- 27.8 yards per completion (but only 6.2 yards per attempt)

Sayers had tremendous impact on special teams, as well as in both the running and passing games on offense. Davis didn't have quite the same overall impact. And, frankly, from the averages shown above, Sayers appears to have been more talented, though I realize it is difficult to compare across eras, offenses, etc.

Sayers played only 2 games in each of his last 2 seasons, unable to overcome injury. So he effectively played only 5 seasons, and he was named All Pro each time. In contrast, Davis played 3 great seasons, 1996-1998. He was All Pro in each of those seasons. But as a rookie, while very impressive for a first year RB, he was not one of the top backs in the NFL. IMO, as great as he was in the next 3 seasons, 3 great seasons makes less of a case than 5 great seasons.

Also, Sayers career was truly done after his 5 year run, as he was able to play only a total of 4 more games over the next 2 seasons. Davis may have actually hurt his case by lingering longer, playing a total of 20 more games over 3 additional seasons after his injury.

I'm not really sure what to think of Sayers being named "All Time NFL halfback" in 1969, but it sounds like an honor that transcends single season awards. I don't recall Davis ever receiving such an award.

...

I feel that Sayers deserves to be in and Davis does not. And I expect the voters will ultimately agree on Davis.
 
Swann did change the position. Teams went for the Swann clones after the draft. Pre Swann the tough and slow reciever was more the rule and the graceful athletic reciever was the exception he and Bambi changed the recieving game........

 
Swann did change the position. Teams went for the Swann clones after the draft. Pre Swann the tough and slow reciever was more the rule and the graceful athletic reciever was the exception he and Bambi changed the recieving game........
...and the 1978 rule change that handcuffed DBs....I think that had a bit to do with changing the passing game.I went to Swann's alma mater, met him a few times ,good dude.

IMO, no way should he or Stallworth be in the HOF.

FWIW, I'd also take TD over Swann.

 
Because in a big game, in his day, there wasn't another WR you would have wanted catching the ball.
:rolleyes: You mean, other than...

-Isaac Curtis

-Paul Warfield

-John Jefferson

-Charlie Joiner

-John Stallworth

-Harold Carmichael

-Gene Washington

-Steve Largent

-James Lofton

-Harold Jackson

-Drew Pearson

-Charley Taylor

-Ahmad Rashad

 

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