Someone Smarter Than Me Please Explain Sack (1 Viewer)

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Now that the official stat changes for Week 6 have been posted, I just want to understand why Chandler Jones TFL against Brees in the 4th Q of last week's game was not considered a sack.

I have watched the film, and while Brees was bootlegging, he did pull the shoulder back just prior to Jones chopping his legs. At first I was sure it would be a sack - but was it not a sack because he was outside the pocket? Like I said I am not arguing for it to be counted a sack - that decision was already made - but trying to understand if being in or out of the pocket impacts whether it is called a sack. Or is it only a sack if it is obvioulsy a designed pass.

Another thing, if a qb pitches to a rb for a halfback pass - and the rb is tackled behind the line before he throws it is it still a sack...or does it have to be the qb?

 

[The Claymaker]

I think the scoring is based on the "intention" of the play as elias scoring sees it. I was watching the game and remember that exact play, it was almost like Jones hit him in his thigh, but it really did look like a run for Brees to me, and I think the arm motion was to try and fool the defensive player.

It is definitely not that he was out of the pocket as I have seen many sacks count that were made outside the pocket.

 

[TheCommish]

Yep. I was watching it too, and I am a Jones owner, so I wanted those points. But it was clear that the play was a bootleg run. It would probably be more clear if you could see if there were any WRs out running routes. I doubt if there were.

 

[jbz]

what are you guys talking about? Jones got a sack on that play didn't he? He did in my leagues and the stat corrections for week 6 don't show any sack taken away from him.

 

[Diamond]

No, he only got a solo tackle for that play. He already had a sack from earlier in the game.

 

[msommer]

No one can be smarter than you. You are Mr Know-It-All

 

[10tihwj]

I think the scoring is based on the "intention" of the play as elias scoring sees it. I was watching the game and remember that exact play, it was almost like Jones hit him in his thigh, but it really did look like a run for Brees to me, and I think the arm motion was to try and fool the defensive player.

It is definitely not that he was out of the pocket as I have seen many sacks count that were made outside the pocket.

This is correct. If they feel it is a running play, then it is a simple tackle. If it was a passing play, then it is a sack.

As for as a non-QB, I think this has been a point of contention in the wildcat formats, but the NFL has a specific definition for which player is the "QB" for a play and if the player is not the QB (such as in the RB example above) it can't be a sack. So even if the QB pitches or otherwise sends a backward pass to a RB or WR and they are tackled trying to pass, it's not supposed to be a sack.

 

[Hoss Style]

I think the scoring is based on the "intention" of the play as elias scoring sees it. I was watching the game and remember that exact play, it was almost like Jones hit him in his thigh, but it really did look like a run for Brees to me, and I think the arm motion was to try and fool the defensive player.

It is definitely not that he was out of the pocket as I have seen many sacks count that were made outside the pocket.

This is correct. If they feel it is a running play, then it is a simple tackle. If it was a passing play, then it is a sack.

As for as a non-QB, I think this has been a point of contention in the wildcat formats, but the NFL has a specific definition for which player is the "QB" for a play and if the player is not the QB (such as in the RB example above) it can't be a sack. So even if the QB pitches or otherwise sends a backward pass to a RB or WR and they are tackled trying to pass, it's not supposed to be a sack.

Just wanted to back this up - it's the "intent" of the play. I can't find my old NFL Rule Book PDF anymore, but it's actually in there somewhere.

 

[jbz]

No, he only got a solo tackle for that play. He already had a sack from earlier in the game.

Damn, didn't know that. I saw the play and assumed that he got that sack when I looked at the box score. Bummer. Could have used the extra points. I do recall thinking that they might score it as a non-sack.

 

[KellysHeroes]

Technically, the "sack" is a made up play. Its really just a tackle made on the QB when he has the intent to throw the ball. I hate when they don't award a sack because the QB was flushed out of the pocket and begins to run for the LOS, bogus.

 

[jbz]

Hmm, Erin Henderson was just awarded a "sack" of Eli Manning when it was clear Eli had bailed on the pass and was running towards the LOS. Henderson didn't even tackle him really, Eli gave himself up with a feet first slide. Sack awarded. The Jones non-sack of Brees was more of a sack than this play IMO

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

what's funny - I started Henderson this week and that sack gave me the win - with my luck they will take it away and I have a tie. Worst part - the team I am playing scored the most points this week - no other team within 20 points except me - and we will wind up with a tie when we would have beat any other team we played.

 

[Diamond]

The intent of the play at the beginning of the play is what matters in determining sack or not. This play started as a pass, the sack will stand.

 

[KellysHeroes]

The intent of the play at the beginning of the play is what matters in determining sack or not. This play started as a pass, the sack will stand.

thats not always true, i've seen a QB drop back, get pressured and run for the LOS and get called a simple tackle for loss

 

[jbz]

The intent of the play at the beginning of the play is what matters in determining sack or not. This play started as a pass, the sack will stand.

That's a pure judgement call then sometimes. The Brees play could have been called a pass that turned into a run since he playaction faked and bootlegged to the left. There was 1 receiver going out on a pattern it appeared. Interesting that it could be determined that way and based on one person interpretation, but I guess it is like that with assisted tackles and tackles too

 

[jbz]

another sack question. This time from Thursday's game. The announcers credited Hardy with 2 sacks, but the official box score shows one. The one he isn't getting credit for happened in the first half where the snap went through Glennon's legs a bit, he picked it up looked to pass and was taken down by Hardy. So I'm assuming once the ball hit the ground, it made it a play where a sack couldn't be scored? I'm not familiar with the rules on this one. Anyone?

 

[Hoss Style]

another sack question. This time from Thursday's game. The announcers credited Hardy with 2 sacks, but the official box score shows one. The one he isn't getting credit for happened in the first half where the snap went through Glennon's legs a bit, he picked it up looked to pass and was taken down by Hardy. So I'm assuming once the ball hit the ground, it made it a play where a sack couldn't be scored? I'm not familiar with the rules on this one. Anyone?

If the potential passer fumbles before contact by the defense, no sack is credited to any individual defensive player. However, credit will be given to the defensive team for a sack. The number of defensive sacks should be always be equal to the number of offensive sacks team-wise, but it might not be so for IDP sacks. So, in the case you are talking about the Team Defense should have gotten credit for the sack but the individual player wouldn't.

Doesn't really make sense, I guess, but as of a few years ago this is how NFL stat guys were told to do it. It might have changed recently - I'm not sure.

 

[BlueBlazer05]

another sack question. This time from Thursday's game. The announcers credited Hardy with 2 sacks, but the official box score shows one. The one he isn't getting credit for happened in the first half where the snap went through Glennon's legs a bit, he picked it up looked to pass and was taken down by Hardy. So I'm assuming once the ball hit the ground, it made it a play where a sack couldn't be scored? I'm not familiar with the rules on this one. Anyone?

If the potential passer fumbles before contact by the defense, no sack is credited to any individual defensive player. However, credit will be given to the defensive team for a sack. The number of defensive sacks should be always be equal to the number of offensive sacks team-wise, but it might not be so for IDP sacks. So, in the case you are talking about the Team Denfese should have gotten credit for the sack but the individual player wouldn't.

Doesn't really make sense, I guess, but as of a few years ago this is how NFL stat guys were told to do it. It might have changed recently - I'm not sure.

Thanks for the explanation. I have Hardy in IDP, and was wondering why he wasn't credited with two sacks.

 

[jbz]

another sack question. This time from Thursday's game. The announcers credited Hardy with 2 sacks, but the official box score shows one. The one he isn't getting credit for happened in the first half where the snap went through Glennon's legs a bit, he picked it up looked to pass and was taken down by Hardy. So I'm assuming once the ball hit the ground, it made it a play where a sack couldn't be scored? I'm not familiar with the rules on this one. Anyone?

If the potential passer fumbles before contact by the defense, no sack is credited to any individual defensive player. However, credit will be given to the defensive team for a sack. The number of defensive sacks should be always be equal to the number of offensive sacks team-wise, but it might not be so for IDP sacks. So, in the case you are talking about the Team Denfese should have gotten credit for the sack but the individual player wouldn't.

Doesn't really make sense, I guess, but as of a few years ago this is how NFL stat guys were told to do it. It might have changed recently - I'm not sure.

Good info, thanks. Weird rule, a play that a sack is awarded to the team, but not to any player.