Southwest Airlines fiasco (1 Viewer)

[FreeBaGeL]

So, here's a couple personal examples. Just pulled up our next 2 flights (both happen to be my wife and I'm not traveling on either).

STL to Omaha, my wife is taking that trip next month. Flight was $230 round trip. It's just over 1 hour non-stop. There is no other airline that makes that trip non-stop. The cheapest flight is on American and it's still $30 more and would take 4 hours with a stop in Chicago.

STL to Phoenix, she's taking that the following month. Flight is $560 on SW round trip. It's non-stop. There's only 1 airline, American, that makes that flight non-stop. Similar times. It's $550 with the cost to check a bag. Except it's not refundable/changeable like the SW flight. Or potentially less if I catch a lower fare.

And if I happened to be going on either of those flights, then we'd pay that same amount for 2 of us. It's basically twice as much to fly any other airline.

The above is basically what I find on almost every flight we book, so perhaps it's because of our location here, but still.

It's very location dependent. I fly out of SLC and Southwest flights are almost always double the cost, and with a stop, compared to direct flights on other airlines.

When I flew out of ATL Southwest flights were usually a pretty good deal. And a REALLY good deal once you factored in the companion pass.

My brother lives in Oakland which is a mini hub and I'm very jealous of the Southwest rates he gets there. But yea, in SLC, we almost never fly it because it's almost always more expensive and with an extra stop.

 

[Zegras11]

Normally I love SW...they are a little more expensive but by the time you add pick you seat fees, checked bag fees for spirit it's really not much more.

I thought SW was one of the less expensive airlines.

Same. I've flown them A LOT the past 15 years or so. I think their prices have increased a bit the last year or two where they are on par with other carriers. But they've never been the most expensive option for me...ever.

They are always in upper price tier for me, unless I’m buying 6+ months out. And their refusal to participate in most search engines is utter BS. I rarely fly them. And the boarding sucks.

How does the boarding suck? It's the easiest thing ever.

I’m usually traveling with 3 People. Last flight was with 4. Unless your a passenger with status with them(I’m not) you probably aren’t sitting together. Not a big deal now that my kid is older. But it mattered when she was young.
and on the last flight, the 4 of us checked in at the same time. Different boarding groups. So dumb.

A little planning in advance corrects this easily. Put the 24 hour notice on your calendar. Text the 3 others to checkin in when you get your 24 hr notice.

Have them each get a SW acct and use the app and get notifications on phone also.

We do this already.

If you check in right at 24 hours, you're not going to get a middle seat at all. Worst I've ever gotten is like B15 when I use to have to check in.

Except if for whatever reason you can’t check in exactly 24 hours before, you’re screwed. Internet down? Bad reception? Sorry. Even just a minute or two later and you’re in the C’s. So dumb. Just let people reserve seats. No need for checking in in advance at all.

then pay $15 and get auto check in when you purchase your seat. Always get an A when I had to do this.

our last flight was $49 for auto check in.... it seems the auto check in price has fluctuated the last 2 times we flew SW

Never seen that much before. I've gone to the counter when I wanted to almost guarantee an exit row seat and paid $30 to get an A1-A15. I think once I paid $40 for that. Have done it about a dozen times.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Human systems are what they are. It's never seems to be one big thing that causes the problem, but rather incremental errors cascade over time. And are compounded by the thinking of "it's such a short shortcut it won't matter".

The Titanic had too small of a rudder to go with too few lifeboats. As to the latter, the number was governmentally compliant - so who cares if it doesn't match the number of passengers?

The 2008 economic collapse. Sure people are buying houses they can't afford to pay back. But there's plenty of money around so let's just keep don't it anyway.

Deepwater Horizon, Chetnoby, Bhopal, 9/11...small flaws initiate ripples that lead to big, big problems.

Chaos theory in action, I suppose.

I’m not sure if I fully agree here. The airlines have been knowingly running with tiny margins for error for a long time by design. They have done so to maximize profits and to increase stock prices—as many of the compensation of the executives is in the form of stock. The difference between a small business and a huge one that constantly gets bailed out by government if they screw up is that small businesses are almost always forced to reinvest their earnings back into the business to retain employees and to stay competitive with the big boys. The big companies can invest as little as possible back into the actual business (to run lean) in order to make profits look bigger, raise stock prices—which in turn makes the CEO’s more money—and if they screw up—the tax payers and the government will bail them out. $7 billion in covid relief money, hundreds of millions of dollars in stock buy backs just before the pandemic—and Southwest Airlines is using an antiquated system to where they can’t match flight crews/pilots up with flights?

The 2008 economic collapse due to the housing bubble is another example of this. Most normal Americans are not going to turn down the opportunity of living and owning a home if their banker signs off on it and encourages them to do so. The bankers made a ton of money pumping up that bubble and suffered the least once it burst.

These particular instances are not mistakes like hitting a hidden ice berg, or an unforeseen error of a newish technology like the Titanic or Chernobyl were. What happened with the economic crisis in 2008 and what’s going on with airlines now—is absolutely done knowingly and predictably. The airlines constantly sell more tickets than they should. The airlines constantly fill the pockets of their ceo’s even when those same ceo’s are at the helm while the software systems that run these airlines are ticking time bombs

Southwest facing generational PR disaster here if they don’t fix fast. Stuff that ruins a brand (I have only flown them a couple times but I know people used to swear by them).

Just saw an interview with someone who was associated with the airline (pilot spokesperson of some sort I think) and he was saying they have software that handles canceled flights and placing pilots and staff as flights are canceled. Some sort of matrix type thing. This matrix once they get past a certain number of cancelations can’t handle the complexity and stops working.

This spokesperson said that they had repeatedly told management about this problem.

Ouch.

Airline is blaming weather and and refueling company staff shortages from a company in Denver.

Good luck all what a bad way to spend the holidays.

Reddit has numerous pilots saying it is the computer system and management is using labor as the excuse/fall guys because they’re all cowards. I know who I believe.

I mean this guy did this interview on a national show and was pretty clear where he was placing the blame.

The Feds are likely going to get involved at this point so SW better get ready for some rubber glove style probing.

You think the Fed will crumble and punish Southwest hard? The same fed that did nothing to the bankers and lenders that caused the economic bubble in 2008? The same fed that let Boeing safety test its own planes- and when it was discovered that Boeing lied and caused the deaths of hundreds of people- basically gave them a slap on the wrist and then proceeded to order more aircraft from them? Make no mistake- if the Fed punishes Southwest- it will be a drop in the bucket compared to the turmoil that Southwest has caused its passengers. I dont want to come across as a negative nancy- but lets not forget that our government just filled the pockets of Southwest with billions of dollars in covid money. Government punishment will be nothing more than a symbolic slap on the wrist imo.

 

[the moops]

so perhaps it's because of our location here, but still.

It most certainly is. As it is with almost every airline. Like I can fly Sun Country and Spirit and Delta all substantially cheaper than Southwest to just about any corner of this country.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Normally I love SW...they are a little more expensive but by the time you add pick you seat fees, checked bag fees for spirit it's really not much more.

I thought SW was one of the less expensive airlines.

Same. I've flown them A LOT the past 15 years or so. I think their prices have increased a bit the last year or two where they are on par with other carriers. But they've never been the most expensive option for me...ever.

They are always in upper price tier for me, unless I’m buying 6+ months out. And their refusal to participate in most search engines is utter BS. I rarely fly them. And the boarding sucks.

How does the boarding suck? It's the easiest thing ever.

I’m usually traveling with 3 People. Last flight was with 4. Unless your a passenger with status with them(I’m not) you probably aren’t sitting together. Not a big deal now that my kid is older. But it mattered when she was young.
and on the last flight, the 4 of us checked in at the same time. Different boarding groups. So dumb.

A little planning in advance corrects this easily. Put the 24 hour notice on your calendar. Text the 3 others to checkin in when you get your 24 hr notice.

Have them each get a SW acct and use the app and get notifications on phone also.

We do this already.

If you check in right at 24 hours, you're not going to get a middle seat at all. Worst I've ever gotten is like B15 when I use to have to check in.

Except if for whatever reason you can’t check in exactly 24 hours before, you’re screwed. Internet down? Bad reception? Sorry. Even just a minute or two later and you’re in the C’s. So dumb. Just let people reserve seats. No need for checking in in advance at all.

then pay $15 and get auto check in when you purchase your seat. Always get an A when I had to do this.

our last flight was $49 for auto check in.... it seems the auto check in price has fluctuated the last 2 times we flew SW

Never seen that much before. I've gone to the counter when I wanted to almost guarantee an exit row seat and paid $30 to get an A1-A15. I think once I paid $40 for that. Have done it about a dozen times.

I think it's most expensive when you buy it at the airport too. If you buy it during the purchase process, like you do with seat selection on a traditional airline, I think it's capped at $25.

 

[gianmarco]

Even just a minute or two later and you’re in the C’s.

this is BS

I’m going by multiple examples from personal experience. If you’re right on 24 hours, early-mid Bs is typical. Anything later and you’re late Bs, early Cs. I rarely get in the As if I login right at 24 hours.

This has to do with your flight and where it originates.

If you are taking a flight that has passengers that originated on earlier legs, then they automatically get higher than you because they get assigned before you can choose. Again, this is why it matters where you live for your experience. Taking a flight that originates on either coast? You're likely to get a good boarding number because there aren't going to be many people, if any, that are connecting with your flight. Take a flight out of Chicago? Well, that Virginia flight that flew out (and thus checked in) earlier than yours and has to change planes in Chicago is going to get assigned a higher boarding group. So, it doesn't matter how fast you are. It has nothing to do with being a minute or two late. So, you add in those passengers plus those that pay for early bird check in plus any rewards members and if you add in leaving from a mid country hub that a lot of flights connect through and yes, you're going to get a ****ty boarding group almost every time. Fly out of Ft. Lauderdale? You'll get an A group almost guaranteed.

 

[Scoresman]

I don’t know what airlines people fly where you have to pay to reserve seats

Delta, United, American. Maybe you've heard of them?

JetBlue, Spirit as well. Literally 6 of the 8 largest US airlines charge for seat selection, with the only exceptions being Southwest and Alaskan.

Well that explains it. I only fly delta international and never again will fly United or American.

I guess I’m lucky Alaska flies everywhere I go.

 

[gianmarco]

Normally I love SW...they are a little more expensive but by the time you add pick you seat fees, checked bag fees for spirit it's really not much more.

I thought SW was one of the less expensive airlines.

Same. I've flown them A LOT the past 15 years or so. I think their prices have increased a bit the last year or two where they are on par with other carriers. But they've never been the most expensive option for me...ever.

They are always in upper price tier for me, unless I’m buying 6+ months out. And their refusal to participate in most search engines is utter BS. I rarely fly them. And the boarding sucks.

How does the boarding suck? It's the easiest thing ever.

I’m usually traveling with 3 People. Last flight was with 4. Unless your a passenger with status with them(I’m not) you probably aren’t sitting together. Not a big deal now that my kid is older. But it mattered when she was young.
and on the last flight, the 4 of us checked in at the same time. Different boarding groups. So dumb.

A little planning in advance corrects this easily. Put the 24 hour notice on your calendar. Text the 3 others to checkin in when you get your 24 hr notice.

Have them each get a SW acct and use the app and get notifications on phone also.

We do this already.

If you check in right at 24 hours, you're not going to get a middle seat at all. Worst I've ever gotten is like B15 when I use to have to check in.

Except if for whatever reason you can’t check in exactly 24 hours before, you’re screwed. Internet down? Bad reception? Sorry. Even just a minute or two later and you’re in the C’s. So dumb. Just let people reserve seats. No need for checking in in advance at all.

then pay $15 and get auto check in when you purchase your seat. Always get an A when I had to do this.

our last flight was $49 for auto check in.... it seems the auto check in price has fluctuated the last 2 times we flew SW

Never seen that much before. I've gone to the counter when I wanted to almost guarantee an exit row seat and paid $30 to get an A1-A15. I think once I paid $40 for that. Have done it about a dozen times.

I think it's most expensive when you buy it at the airport too. If you buy it during the purchase process, like you do with seat selection on a traditional airline, I think it's capped at $25.

It also depends on what you're talking about:

1) Early bird check-in. It's usually cheaper than upgraded boarding, but it also doesn't guarantee you A boarding group. It basically checks you in 36 hours ahead automatically but, depending on others, can put you late A or even early B. This starts at $15 but I've seen it go as high as $40, IIRC.
2) Upgraded boarding. This is what you want if you want to guarantee good boarding. This puts you A1-A15. This used to only be available at the counter but now they've added it as an option at the 24 hour check in process. You pay anywhere from $30-50, but you're guaranteed A1-A15. If they sell out those spots, it's no longer available. And you have to pay that for every LEG, not just each flight. So, when I flew to Hawaii a couple months ago, I used it on the Las Vegas to Hawaii leg since that's a 6 hour flight and getting a good seat mattered. Got A3. Couple hours from here to Las Vegas? Don't really care where I sit.

If you get the SW credit card (the better one), you get 4 free upgraded bookings per year. It's ideal for just that kind of trip. So it actually didn't cost me anything.

 

[belljr]

our last flight was $49 for auto check in.... it seems the auto check in price has fluctuated the last 2 times we flew SW

Never seen that much before. I've gone to the counter when I wanted to almost guarantee an exit row seat and paid $30 to get an A1-A15. I think once I paid $40 for that. Have done it about a dozen times.

maybe it was $39 but I know it wasn't 15 because i "yelled" at my wife for not paying the $15 and doing the auto check in when flying to denver, and she said it was going to cost and extra 100 plus

 

[Buckna]

ETA: It sounds like that Southwest companion pass thingie really is a great benefit, though

Best airline benefit there is, not even close, and you get it just by using credit cards.

Yep, also someone mentioned bags fly free on other carriers if you book using a cobranded credit card. Most SW branded credit cards offer reimbursed upgrades at the gate or reimburse the early bird check-in as a benefit these days since bags fly free already. Only a few credits per year per card so if a frequent flyer maybe not great, but when they are used it eliminates the “oh crap I forgot to check-in and now I am boarding group C.”

Often SW will gift people temporary A-list status as well, had it happen a few times after hitting the CP thresholds. If you get into the CC points game (see the churning thread) you learn very quickly that a lot of airlines make more money on the frequent flyer and credit card side than they do on flights these days.

 

[The General]

Human systems are what they are. It's never seems to be one big thing that causes the problem, but rather incremental errors cascade over time. And are compounded by the thinking of "it's such a short shortcut it won't matter".

The Titanic had too small of a rudder to go with too few lifeboats. As to the latter, the number was governmentally compliant - so who cares if it doesn't match the number of passengers?

The 2008 economic collapse. Sure people are buying houses they can't afford to pay back. But there's plenty of money around so let's just keep don't it anyway.

Deepwater Horizon, Chetnoby, Bhopal, 9/11...small flaws initiate ripples that lead to big, big problems.

Chaos theory in action, I suppose.

I’m not sure if I fully agree here. The airlines have been knowingly running with tiny margins for error for a long time by design. They have done so to maximize profits and to increase stock prices—as many of the compensation of the executives is in the form of stock. The difference between a small business and a huge one that constantly gets bailed out by government if they screw up is that small businesses are almost always forced to reinvest their earnings back into the business to retain employees and to stay competitive with the big boys. The big companies can invest as little as possible back into the actual business (to run lean) in order to make profits look bigger, raise stock prices—which in turn makes the CEO’s more money—and if they screw up—the tax payers and the government will bail them out. $7 billion in covid relief money, hundreds of millions of dollars in stock buy backs just before the pandemic—and Southwest Airlines is using an antiquated system to where they can’t match flight crews/pilots up with flights?

The 2008 economic collapse due to the housing bubble is another example of this. Most normal Americans are not going to turn down the opportunity of living and owning a home if their banker signs off on it and encourages them to do so. The bankers made a ton of money pumping up that bubble and suffered the least once it burst.

These particular instances are not mistakes like hitting a hidden ice berg, or an unforeseen error of a newish technology like the Titanic or Chernobyl were. What happened with the economic crisis in 2008 and what’s going on with airlines now—is absolutely done knowingly and predictably. The airlines constantly sell more tickets than they should. The airlines constantly fill the pockets of their ceo’s even when those same ceo’s are at the helm while the software systems that run these airlines are ticking time bombs

Southwest facing generational PR disaster here if they don’t fix fast. Stuff that ruins a brand (I have only flown them a couple times but I know people used to swear by them).

Just saw an interview with someone who was associated with the airline (pilot spokesperson of some sort I think) and he was saying they have software that handles canceled flights and placing pilots and staff as flights are canceled. Some sort of matrix type thing. This matrix once they get past a certain number of cancelations can’t handle the complexity and stops working.

This spokesperson said that they had repeatedly told management about this problem.

Ouch.

Airline is blaming weather and and refueling company staff shortages from a company in Denver.

Good luck all what a bad way to spend the holidays.

Reddit has numerous pilots saying it is the computer system and management is using labor as the excuse/fall guys because they’re all cowards. I know who I believe.

I mean this guy did this interview on a national show and was pretty clear where he was placing the blame.

The Feds are likely going to get involved at this point so SW better get ready for some rubber glove style probing.

You think the Fed will crumble and punish Southwest hard? The same fed that did nothing to the bankers and lenders that caused the economic bubble in 2008? The same fed that let Boeing safety test its own planes- and when it was discovered that Boeing lied and caused the deaths of hundreds of people- basically gave them a slap on the wrist and then proceeded to order more aircraft from them? Make no mistake- if the Fed punishes Southwest- it will be a drop in the bucket compared to the turmoil that Southwest has caused its passengers. I dont want to come across as a negative nancy- but lets not forget that our government just filled the pockets of Southwest with billions of dollars in covid money. Government punishment will be nothing more than a symbolic slap on the wrist imo.

We’ll see what happens. It’s a business that apparently made a poor choice in upgrading software.

Do you want them put out of business for instance?

 

[Orange&Blue]

High speed rail sure would be nice

im holding off traveling until teleportation becomes a thing.

Lol... Just imagine that disaster should that have a software issue.

 

[The General]

High speed rail sure would be nice

im holding off traveling until teleportation becomes a thing.

Lol... Just imagine that disaster should that have a software issue.

We Mr Orange&Blue we see your torso arrived in Pittsburgh but we got your head to Miami. Here’s a voucher for your next travel.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Human systems are what they are. It's never seems to be one big thing that causes the problem, but rather incremental errors cascade over time. And are compounded by the thinking of "it's such a short shortcut it won't matter".

The Titanic had too small of a rudder to go with too few lifeboats. As to the latter, the number was governmentally compliant - so who cares if it doesn't match the number of passengers?

The 2008 economic collapse. Sure people are buying houses they can't afford to pay back. But there's plenty of money around so let's just keep don't it anyway.

Deepwater Horizon, Chetnoby, Bhopal, 9/11...small flaws initiate ripples that lead to big, big problems.

Chaos theory in action, I suppose.

I’m not sure if I fully agree here. The airlines have been knowingly running with tiny margins for error for a long time by design. They have done so to maximize profits and to increase stock prices—as many of the compensation of the executives is in the form of stock. The difference between a small business and a huge one that constantly gets bailed out by government if they screw up is that small businesses are almost always forced to reinvest their earnings back into the business to retain employees and to stay competitive with the big boys. The big companies can invest as little as possible back into the actual business (to run lean) in order to make profits look bigger, raise stock prices—which in turn makes the CEO’s more money—and if they screw up—the tax payers and the government will bail them out. $7 billion in covid relief money, hundreds of millions of dollars in stock buy backs just before the pandemic—and Southwest Airlines is using an antiquated system to where they can’t match flight crews/pilots up with flights?

The 2008 economic collapse due to the housing bubble is another example of this. Most normal Americans are not going to turn down the opportunity of living and owning a home if their banker signs off on it and encourages them to do so. The bankers made a ton of money pumping up that bubble and suffered the least once it burst.

These particular instances are not mistakes like hitting a hidden ice berg, or an unforeseen error of a newish technology like the Titanic or Chernobyl were. What happened with the economic crisis in 2008 and what’s going on with airlines now—is absolutely done knowingly and predictably. The airlines constantly sell more tickets than they should. The airlines constantly fill the pockets of their ceo’s even when those same ceo’s are at the helm while the software systems that run these airlines are ticking time bombs

Southwest facing generational PR disaster here if they don’t fix fast. Stuff that ruins a brand (I have only flown them a couple times but I know people used to swear by them).

Just saw an interview with someone who was associated with the airline (pilot spokesperson of some sort I think) and he was saying they have software that handles canceled flights and placing pilots and staff as flights are canceled. Some sort of matrix type thing. This matrix once they get past a certain number of cancelations can’t handle the complexity and stops working.

This spokesperson said that they had repeatedly told management about this problem.

Ouch.

Airline is blaming weather and and refueling company staff shortages from a company in Denver.

Good luck all what a bad way to spend the holidays.

Reddit has numerous pilots saying it is the computer system and management is using labor as the excuse/fall guys because they’re all cowards. I know who I believe.

I mean this guy did this interview on a national show and was pretty clear where he was placing the blame.

The Feds are likely going to get involved at this point so SW better get ready for some rubber glove style probing.

You think the Fed will crumble and punish Southwest hard? The same fed that did nothing to the bankers and lenders that caused the economic bubble in 2008? The same fed that let Boeing safety test its own planes- and when it was discovered that Boeing lied and caused the deaths of hundreds of people- basically gave them a slap on the wrist and then proceeded to order more aircraft from them? Make no mistake- if the Fed punishes Southwest- it will be a drop in the bucket compared to the turmoil that Southwest has caused its passengers. I dont want to come across as a negative nancy- but lets not forget that our government just filled the pockets of Southwest with billions of dollars in covid money. Government punishment will be nothing more than a symbolic slap on the wrist imo.

We’ll see what happens. It’s a business that apparently made a poor choice in upgrading software.

Do you want them put out of business for instance?

I think they should be responsible for the time, effort, suffering, expenses for the damage done to their customers as a result of their failure to upgrade their software properly. If that puts them out of business—so be it. When big companies go out of business—it’s not like they just vanish. Generally speaking, companies that are run better and have better financials swoop in and purchase them and take them over. A real travesty is when a small business is forced to close its door because of no fault of its own—because that is often true business extinction for that business. My heart doesn’t cry for billion dollar companies that take billions of dollars from taxpayers, use that money to inflate stock prices as opposed to using it to make their business better and safer for it’s customers—and then chalk up their own failures as being mistakes that were unforeseen. I would bet that many executives at Southwest knew that their software situation was iffy at best.

 

[massraider]

If every airline that screwed any of us was out of business, we'd all be taking buses everywhere.

Edit:

If Southwest went out of business today, it would cost millions of flyers more money for years. Years.

The competition keeps prices down.

 

[The General]

Human systems are what they are. It's never seems to be one big thing that causes the problem, but rather incremental errors cascade over time. And are compounded by the thinking of "it's such a short shortcut it won't matter".

The Titanic had too small of a rudder to go with too few lifeboats. As to the latter, the number was governmentally compliant - so who cares if it doesn't match the number of passengers?

The 2008 economic collapse. Sure people are buying houses they can't afford to pay back. But there's plenty of money around so let's just keep don't it anyway.

Deepwater Horizon, Chetnoby, Bhopal, 9/11...small flaws initiate ripples that lead to big, big problems.

Chaos theory in action, I suppose.

I’m not sure if I fully agree here. The airlines have been knowingly running with tiny margins for error for a long time by design. They have done so to maximize profits and to increase stock prices—as many of the compensation of the executives is in the form of stock. The difference between a small business and a huge one that constantly gets bailed out by government if they screw up is that small businesses are almost always forced to reinvest their earnings back into the business to retain employees and to stay competitive with the big boys. The big companies can invest as little as possible back into the actual business (to run lean) in order to make profits look bigger, raise stock prices—which in turn makes the CEO’s more money—and if they screw up—the tax payers and the government will bail them out. $7 billion in covid relief money, hundreds of millions of dollars in stock buy backs just before the pandemic—and Southwest Airlines is using an antiquated system to where they can’t match flight crews/pilots up with flights?

The 2008 economic collapse due to the housing bubble is another example of this. Most normal Americans are not going to turn down the opportunity of living and owning a home if their banker signs off on it and encourages them to do so. The bankers made a ton of money pumping up that bubble and suffered the least once it burst.

These particular instances are not mistakes like hitting a hidden ice berg, or an unforeseen error of a newish technology like the Titanic or Chernobyl were. What happened with the economic crisis in 2008 and what’s going on with airlines now—is absolutely done knowingly and predictably. The airlines constantly sell more tickets than they should. The airlines constantly fill the pockets of their ceo’s even when those same ceo’s are at the helm while the software systems that run these airlines are ticking time bombs

Southwest facing generational PR disaster here if they don’t fix fast. Stuff that ruins a brand (I have only flown them a couple times but I know people used to swear by them).

Just saw an interview with someone who was associated with the airline (pilot spokesperson of some sort I think) and he was saying they have software that handles canceled flights and placing pilots and staff as flights are canceled. Some sort of matrix type thing. This matrix once they get past a certain number of cancelations can’t handle the complexity and stops working.

This spokesperson said that they had repeatedly told management about this problem.

Ouch.

Airline is blaming weather and and refueling company staff shortages from a company in Denver.

Good luck all what a bad way to spend the holidays.

Reddit has numerous pilots saying it is the computer system and management is using labor as the excuse/fall guys because they’re all cowards. I know who I believe.

I mean this guy did this interview on a national show and was pretty clear where he was placing the blame.

The Feds are likely going to get involved at this point so SW better get ready for some rubber glove style probing.

You think the Fed will crumble and punish Southwest hard? The same fed that did nothing to the bankers and lenders that caused the economic bubble in 2008? The same fed that let Boeing safety test its own planes- and when it was discovered that Boeing lied and caused the deaths of hundreds of people- basically gave them a slap on the wrist and then proceeded to order more aircraft from them? Make no mistake- if the Fed punishes Southwest- it will be a drop in the bucket compared to the turmoil that Southwest has caused its passengers. I dont want to come across as a negative nancy- but lets not forget that our government just filled the pockets of Southwest with billions of dollars in covid money. Government punishment will be nothing more than a symbolic slap on the wrist imo.

We’ll see what happens. It’s a business that apparently made a poor choice in upgrading software.

Do you want them put out of business for instance?

I think they should be responsible for the time, effort, suffering, expenses for the damage done to their customers as a result of their failure to upgrade their software properly. If that puts them out of business—so be it. When big companies go out of business—it’s not like they just vanish. Generally speaking, companies that are run better and have better financials swoop in and purchase them and take them over. A real travesty is when a small business is forced to close its door because of no fault of its own—because that is often true business extinction for that business. My heart doesn’t cry for billion dollar companies that take billions of dollars from taxpayers, use that money to inflate stock prices as opposed to using it to make their business better and safer for it’s customers—and then chalk up their own failures as being mistakes that were unforeseen. I would bet that many executives at Southwest knew that their software situation was iffy at best.

How do you quantify that?

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Human systems are what they are. It's never seems to be one big thing that causes the problem, but rather incremental errors cascade over time. And are compounded by the thinking of "it's such a short shortcut it won't matter".

The Titanic had too small of a rudder to go with too few lifeboats. As to the latter, the number was governmentally compliant - so who cares if it doesn't match the number of passengers?

The 2008 economic collapse. Sure people are buying houses they can't afford to pay back. But there's plenty of money around so let's just keep don't it anyway.

Deepwater Horizon, Chetnoby, Bhopal, 9/11...small flaws initiate ripples that lead to big, big problems.

Chaos theory in action, I suppose.

I’m not sure if I fully agree here. The airlines have been knowingly running with tiny margins for error for a long time by design. They have done so to maximize profits and to increase stock prices—as many of the compensation of the executives is in the form of stock. The difference between a small business and a huge one that constantly gets bailed out by government if they screw up is that small businesses are almost always forced to reinvest their earnings back into the business to retain employees and to stay competitive with the big boys. The big companies can invest as little as possible back into the actual business (to run lean) in order to make profits look bigger, raise stock prices—which in turn makes the CEO’s more money—and if they screw up—the tax payers and the government will bail them out. $7 billion in covid relief money, hundreds of millions of dollars in stock buy backs just before the pandemic—and Southwest Airlines is using an antiquated system to where they can’t match flight crews/pilots up with flights?

The 2008 economic collapse due to the housing bubble is another example of this. Most normal Americans are not going to turn down the opportunity of living and owning a home if their banker signs off on it and encourages them to do so. The bankers made a ton of money pumping up that bubble and suffered the least once it burst.

These particular instances are not mistakes like hitting a hidden ice berg, or an unforeseen error of a newish technology like the Titanic or Chernobyl were. What happened with the economic crisis in 2008 and what’s going on with airlines now—is absolutely done knowingly and predictably. The airlines constantly sell more tickets than they should. The airlines constantly fill the pockets of their ceo’s even when those same ceo’s are at the helm while the software systems that run these airlines are ticking time bombs

Southwest facing generational PR disaster here if they don’t fix fast. Stuff that ruins a brand (I have only flown them a couple times but I know people used to swear by them).

Just saw an interview with someone who was associated with the airline (pilot spokesperson of some sort I think) and he was saying they have software that handles canceled flights and placing pilots and staff as flights are canceled. Some sort of matrix type thing. This matrix once they get past a certain number of cancelations can’t handle the complexity and stops working.

This spokesperson said that they had repeatedly told management about this problem.

Ouch.

Airline is blaming weather and and refueling company staff shortages from a company in Denver.

Good luck all what a bad way to spend the holidays.

Reddit has numerous pilots saying it is the computer system and management is using labor as the excuse/fall guys because they’re all cowards. I know who I believe.

I mean this guy did this interview on a national show and was pretty clear where he was placing the blame.

The Feds are likely going to get involved at this point so SW better get ready for some rubber glove style probing.

You think the Fed will crumble and punish Southwest hard? The same fed that did nothing to the bankers and lenders that caused the economic bubble in 2008? The same fed that let Boeing safety test its own planes- and when it was discovered that Boeing lied and caused the deaths of hundreds of people- basically gave them a slap on the wrist and then proceeded to order more aircraft from them? Make no mistake- if the Fed punishes Southwest- it will be a drop in the bucket compared to the turmoil that Southwest has caused its passengers. I dont want to come across as a negative nancy- but lets not forget that our government just filled the pockets of Southwest with billions of dollars in covid money. Government punishment will be nothing more than a symbolic slap on the wrist imo.

We’ll see what happens. It’s a business that apparently made a poor choice in upgrading software.

Do you want them put out of business for instance?

I think they should be responsible for the time, effort, suffering, expenses for the damage done to their customers as a result of their failure to upgrade their software properly. If that puts them out of business—so be it. When big companies go out of business—it’s not like they just vanish. Generally speaking, companies that are run better and have better financials swoop in and purchase them and take them over. A real travesty is when a small business is forced to close its door because of no fault of its own—because that is often true business extinction for that business. My heart doesn’t cry for billion dollar companies that take billions of dollars from taxpayers, use that money to inflate stock prices as opposed to using it to make their business better and safer for it’s customers—and then chalk up their own failures as being mistakes that were unforeseen. I would bet that many executives at Southwest knew that their software situation was iffy at best.

How do you quantify that?

Receipts, lawsuits, arbitrators..etc. The difficulty in quantifying how much damage they caused should not absolve them from making things right. What you just asked right now is EXACTLY the slimy kind of question that a multi-billion dollar company that manipulates government officials to always legislate in their favor will use to get out of this mess and once again leave the victims of their ineptitude screwed

 

[Brunell4MVP]

These are the 20 best airlines in the world, according to one survey of travelers: See the full list

The annual Skytrax list of the world's best airlines is out. North American carriers again didn't make the cut, just as they haven't since 2013.

www.businessinsider.com

Top 20 airlines in the world. US has none. The fact is our entire mass transportation system is lacking. From planes to trains. We don't do it well. There are a lot of reasons for this, but regulations, unions, fixed costs, tight profit margins, and our unwillingness to pay for quality and instead fly cheap are among the many. Fact is, it costs about 60% less (inflation adjusted) to fly today than it did 20 years ago.

So the question is, would you pay $1000 for that $400 ticket to not be treated like crap?

 

[The General]

Human systems are what they are. It's never seems to be one big thing that causes the problem, but rather incremental errors cascade over time. And are compounded by the thinking of "it's such a short shortcut it won't matter".

The Titanic had too small of a rudder to go with too few lifeboats. As to the latter, the number was governmentally compliant - so who cares if it doesn't match the number of passengers?

The 2008 economic collapse. Sure people are buying houses they can't afford to pay back. But there's plenty of money around so let's just keep don't it anyway.

Deepwater Horizon, Chetnoby, Bhopal, 9/11...small flaws initiate ripples that lead to big, big problems.

Chaos theory in action, I suppose.

I’m not sure if I fully agree here. The airlines have been knowingly running with tiny margins for error for a long time by design. They have done so to maximize profits and to increase stock prices—as many of the compensation of the executives is in the form of stock. The difference between a small business and a huge one that constantly gets bailed out by government if they screw up is that small businesses are almost always forced to reinvest their earnings back into the business to retain employees and to stay competitive with the big boys. The big companies can invest as little as possible back into the actual business (to run lean) in order to make profits look bigger, raise stock prices—which in turn makes the CEO’s more money—and if they screw up—the tax payers and the government will bail them out. $7 billion in covid relief money, hundreds of millions of dollars in stock buy backs just before the pandemic—and Southwest Airlines is using an antiquated system to where they can’t match flight crews/pilots up with flights?

The 2008 economic collapse due to the housing bubble is another example of this. Most normal Americans are not going to turn down the opportunity of living and owning a home if their banker signs off on it and encourages them to do so. The bankers made a ton of money pumping up that bubble and suffered the least once it burst.

These particular instances are not mistakes like hitting a hidden ice berg, or an unforeseen error of a newish technology like the Titanic or Chernobyl were. What happened with the economic crisis in 2008 and what’s going on with airlines now—is absolutely done knowingly and predictably. The airlines constantly sell more tickets than they should. The airlines constantly fill the pockets of their ceo’s even when those same ceo’s are at the helm while the software systems that run these airlines are ticking time bombs

Southwest facing generational PR disaster here if they don’t fix fast. Stuff that ruins a brand (I have only flown them a couple times but I know people used to swear by them).

Just saw an interview with someone who was associated with the airline (pilot spokesperson of some sort I think) and he was saying they have software that handles canceled flights and placing pilots and staff as flights are canceled. Some sort of matrix type thing. This matrix once they get past a certain number of cancelations can’t handle the complexity and stops working.

This spokesperson said that they had repeatedly told management about this problem.

Ouch.

Airline is blaming weather and and refueling company staff shortages from a company in Denver.

Good luck all what a bad way to spend the holidays.

Reddit has numerous pilots saying it is the computer system and management is using labor as the excuse/fall guys because they’re all cowards. I know who I believe.

I mean this guy did this interview on a national show and was pretty clear where he was placing the blame.

The Feds are likely going to get involved at this point so SW better get ready for some rubber glove style probing.

You think the Fed will crumble and punish Southwest hard? The same fed that did nothing to the bankers and lenders that caused the economic bubble in 2008? The same fed that let Boeing safety test its own planes- and when it was discovered that Boeing lied and caused the deaths of hundreds of people- basically gave them a slap on the wrist and then proceeded to order more aircraft from them? Make no mistake- if the Fed punishes Southwest- it will be a drop in the bucket compared to the turmoil that Southwest has caused its passengers. I dont want to come across as a negative nancy- but lets not forget that our government just filled the pockets of Southwest with billions of dollars in covid money. Government punishment will be nothing more than a symbolic slap on the wrist imo.

We’ll see what happens. It’s a business that apparently made a poor choice in upgrading software.

Do you want them put out of business for instance?

I think they should be responsible for the time, effort, suffering, expenses for the damage done to their customers as a result of their failure to upgrade their software properly. If that puts them out of business—so be it. When big companies go out of business—it’s not like they just vanish. Generally speaking, companies that are run better and have better financials swoop in and purchase them and take them over. A real travesty is when a small business is forced to close its door because of no fault of its own—because that is often true business extinction for that business. My heart doesn’t cry for billion dollar companies that take billions of dollars from taxpayers, use that money to inflate stock prices as opposed to using it to make their business better and safer for it’s customers—and then chalk up their own failures as being mistakes that were unforeseen. I would bet that many executives at Southwest knew that their software situation was iffy at best.

How do you quantify that?

Receipts, lawsuits, arbitrators..etc. The difficulty in quantifying how much damage they caused should not absolve them from making things right. What you just asked right now is EXACTLY the slimy kind of question that a multi-billion dollar company that manipulates government officials to always legislate in their favor will use to get out of this mess and once again leave the victims of their ineptitude screwed

I asked because I think it is very difficult to do. The government is certainly going to have problems - like you did in your answer. Lawsuits and arbiters are going to run into any number of issues in actually fixing this problem. Lawsuits will certainly happen in any case.

I lean towards let customers decide as much as possible in an instance like this unless safety is involved. People can choose other airlines to fly that don’t strand them.

Back to my original comment the Feds are definitely going to crawl up SW’s *** and we’ll see what happens.

 

[krista4]

and then chalk up their own failures as being mistakes that were unforeseen. I would bet that many executives at Southwest knew that their software situation was iffy at best.

Out of curiosity I checked the risk factors in their 2021 annual report to see what they reported about technology. They have only two IT-related risk factors, one of them involving data privacy but one about their systems. Mostly it was just generic stuff, but this sentence was interesting: "In particular, during 2020, in connection with the Company's efforts to reduce capital and operating expenditures in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the Company deferred a significant number of technology projects." Also, "The Company has experienced system interruptions and delays that have made its websites and operational systems unavailable or slow to respond..."

Entire risk factor copied here:

Spoiler

The Company is increasingly dependent on technology to operate its business and continues to implement substantial changes to its information systems; any failure, disruption, breach, or delay in implementation of the Company's information systems could materially adversely affect its operations.

Spoiler

The Company is increasingly dependent on the use of complex technology and systems to run its ongoing operations and support its strategic objectives. These technologies and systems include, among others, the Company's website and reservation system; flight dispatch and tracking systems; flight simulators; check-in kiosks; aircraft maintenance, planning, and record keeping systems; telecommunications systems; flight planning and scheduling systems; crew scheduling systems; human resources systems; and financial planning, management, and accounting systems. The performance, reliability, and security of the Company's technology infrastructure and supporting systems are critical to the Company's operations and initiatives.

Implementation and integration of complex systems and technology present significant challenges in terms of costs, human resources, and development of effective internal controls. Implementation and integration require a balancing between the introduction of new capabilities and the managing of existing systems, and present the risk of operational or security inadequacy or interruption, which could materially affect the Company's ability to effectively operate its business and/or could negatively impact the Company's results of operations.

The Company is also reliant upon the performance of its third party vendors for timely and effective implementation and support of many of its technology initiatives and for maintaining adequate information security measures within the services and/or software they deliver. If any of the Company's significant technologies or automated systems were to cease functioning, or if its third party vendor service providers were to fail to adequately and timely provide technical support, system maintenance, security, or software upgrades for any of the Company's existing systems, the Company could experience service interruptions, delays, and loss of critical data, which could harm its operations, and result in financial losses and reputational damage.

In the ordinary course of business, the Company's systems will continue to require modification and refinements to address growth and changing business requirements. In addition, the Company's systems may require modification to enable the Company to comply with changing regulatory requirements. Modifications and refinements to the Company's systems have been and are expected to continue to be expensive to implement and can divert management’s attention from other matters. In particular, during 2020, in connection with the Company's efforts to reduce capital and operating expenditures in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the Company deferred a significant number of technology projects. In addition, the Company's operations could be adversely affected, or the Company could face imposition of regulatory penalties, if it were unable to timely or effectively modify its systems as necessary or appropriately balance the introduction of new capabilities with the management of existing systems.

The Company has experienced system interruptions and delays that have made its websites and operational systems unavailable or slow to respond, which has prevented the Company from efficiently processing Customer transactions or providing services. Any future system interruptions or delays could reduce the Company's operating revenues and the attractiveness of its services, as well as increase the Company's costs.

The Company's technologies and systems and functions could be damaged or interrupted by catastrophic events beyond its control such as fires, floods, earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes, power loss, computer and telecommunications failures, acts of war or terrorism, computer viruses, security breaches, and similar events or disruptions. Any of these events could cause system interruptions, delays, and loss of critical data, and could prevent the Company from processing Customer transactions or providing services, which could make the Company's business and services less attractive and subject the Company to liability. Any of these events could damage the Company's reputation and be expensive to remedy.

 

[krista4]

By the way, in their filings, they clearly state that being a low-cost airline is their biggest competitive advantage.

 

[McBokonon]

High speed rail sure would be nice

im holding off traveling until teleportation becomes a thing.

Lol... Just imagine that disaster should that have a software issue.

We Mr Orange&Blue we see your torso arrived in Pittsburgh but we got your head to Miami. Here’s a voucher for your next travel.

Restrictions on voucher apply. Vouchers must be used within 6 months of issue and are only good for teleportations that start east of the Mississippi River and end in a state that starts with a vowel. Voucher redemption can only take place over the phone with someone we just laid off and has less than a week left and cares even less than you think. Do not taunt your voucher.

 

[Orange&Blue]

Our department head just sent an email saying we will no longer use southwest for the foreseeable future. His departments travel budget is roughly $5m. I imagine SW is going to lose customers/business from this.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

By the way, in their filings, they clearly state that being a low-cost airline is their biggest competitive advantage.

I’m not sure if that means anything. You think a passenger paying less for a ticket makes from a discount carrier makes it okay for them to be treated like garbage and should put them at higher risk of being abandoned at an airport?If i book a stay at a cheap hotel- my expectation is that I still get a room- even though I’m fully aware it wont have the luxuries that more expensive hotel chains have. I think we need to be careful not to confuse who the victims are here. Even a low cost airline has an obligation to run in a professional manner

 

[Orange&Blue]

These are the 20 best airlines in the world, according to one survey of travelers: See the full list

The annual Skytrax list of the world's best airlines is out. North American carriers again didn't make the cut, just as they haven't since 2013.

www.businessinsider.com

Top 20 airlines in the world. US has none. The fact is our entire mass transportation system is lacking. From planes to trains. We don't do it well. There are a lot of reasons for this, but regulations, unions, fixed costs, tight profit margins, and our unwillingness to pay for quality and instead fly cheap are among the many. Fact is, it costs about 60% less (inflation adjusted) to fly today than it did 20 years ago.

So the question is, would you pay $1000 for that $400 ticket to not be treated like crap?

No

 

[krista4]

By the way, in their filings, they clearly state that being a low-cost airline is their biggest competitive advantage.

I’m not sure if that means anything. You think a passenger paying less for a ticket makes from a discount carrier makes it okay for them to be treated like garbage and should put them at higher risk of being abandoned at an airport?If i book a stay at a cheap hotel- my expectation is that I still get a room- even though I’m fully aware it wont have the luxuries that more expensive hotel chains have. I think we need to be careful not to confuse who the victims are here. Even a low cost airline has an obligation to run in a professional manner

No, in fact that's not what I said at all. I pointed out that they consider being a low-cost airline to be a big competitive advantage, which was in response to the discussion earlier as to whether they are "low cost" or not. Sheesh, calm down.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

By the way, in their filings, they clearly state that being a low-cost airline is their biggest competitive advantage.

I’m not sure if that means anything. You think a passenger paying less for a ticket makes from a discount carrier makes it okay for them to be treated like garbage and should put them at higher risk of being abandoned at an airport?If i book a stay at a cheap hotel- my expectation is that I still get a room- even though I’m fully aware it wont have the luxuries that more expensive hotel chains have. I think we need to be careful not to confuse who the victims are here. Even a low cost airline has an obligation to run in a professional manner

No, in fact that's not what I said at all. I pointed out that they consider being a low-cost airline to be a big competitive advantage, which was in response to the discussion earlier as to whether they are "low cost" or not. Sheesh, calm down.

My apologies. Your comment could have been interpreted in different ways- and I clearly jumped to an interpretation that wasn’t your intent on my first read.

 

[krista4]

By the way, in their filings, they clearly state that being a low-cost airline is their biggest competitive advantage.

I’m not sure if that means anything. You think a passenger paying less for a ticket makes from a discount carrier makes it okay for them to be treated like garbage and should put them at higher risk of being abandoned at an airport?If i book a stay at a cheap hotel- my expectation is that I still get a room- even though I’m fully aware it wont have the luxuries that more expensive hotel chains have. I think we need to be careful not to confuse who the victims are here. Even a low cost airline has an obligation to run in a professional manner

No, in fact that's not what I said at all. I pointed out that they consider being a low-cost airline to be a big competitive advantage, which was in response to the discussion earlier as to whether they are "low cost" or not. Sheesh, calm down.

My apologies. Your comment could have been interpreted in different ways- and I clearly jumped to an interpretation that wasn’t your intent on my first read.

You're right, as I definitely could have given more context around the comment to avoid confusion. We're on the same page in terms of passenger rights and expectations, though!

Southwest still ranked first in the nation in customer satisfaction for economy class earlier this year. Gotta think that might not stay the same into 2023!

 

[MAC_32]

Southwest facing generational PR disaster here if they don’t fix fast. Stuff that ruins a brand (I have only flown them a couple times but I know people used to swear by them).

Just saw an interview with someone who was associated with the airline (pilot spokesperson of some sort I think) and he was saying they have software that handles canceled flights and placing pilots and staff as flights are canceled. Some sort of matrix type thing. This matrix once they get past a certain number of cancelations can’t handle the complexity and stops working.

This spokesperson said that they had repeatedly told management about this problem.

Ouch.

Airline is blaming weather and and refueling company staff shortages from a company in Denver.

Good luck all what a bad way to spend the holidays.

I understand where people are coming from when they say they've had good experiences with them in the past, but due to the above none of that matters to me. I'd have been shocked if they weren't alerted and like most other mega corporation chose corporate greed over pragmatic business practice.

Southwest- go **** yourselves.

 

[BeTheMatch]

Human systems are what they are. It's never seems to be one big thing that causes the problem, but rather incremental errors cascade over time. And are compounded by the thinking of "it's such a short shortcut it won't matter".

The Titanic had too small of a rudder to go with too few lifeboats. As to the latter, the number was governmentally compliant - so who cares if it doesn't match the number of passengers?

The 2008 economic collapse. Sure people are buying houses they can't afford to pay back. But there's plenty of money around so let's just keep don't it anyway.

Deepwater Horizon, Chetnoby, Bhopal, 9/11...small flaws initiate ripples that lead to big, big problems.

Chaos theory in action, I suppose.

I’m not sure if I fully agree here. The airlines have been knowingly running with tiny margins for error for a long time by design. They have done so to maximize profits and to increase stock prices—as many of the compensation of the executives is in the form of stock. The difference between a small business and a huge one that constantly gets bailed out by government if they screw up is that small businesses are almost always forced to reinvest their earnings back into the business to retain employees and to stay competitive with the big boys. The big companies can invest as little as possible back into the actual business (to run lean) in order to make profits look bigger, raise stock prices—which in turn makes the CEO’s more money—and if they screw up—the tax payers and the government will bail them out. $7 billion in covid relief money, hundreds of millions of dollars in stock buy backs just before the pandemic—and Southwest Airlines is using an antiquated system to where they can’t match flight crews/pilots up with flights?

The 2008 economic collapse due to the housing bubble is another example of this. Most normal Americans are not going to turn down the opportunity of living and owning a home if their banker signs off on it and encourages them to do so. The bankers made a ton of money pumping up that bubble and suffered the least once it burst.

These particular instances are not mistakes like hitting a hidden ice berg, or an unforeseen error of a newish technology like the Titanic or Chernobyl were. What happened with the economic crisis in 2008 and what’s going on with airlines now—is absolutely done knowingly and predictably. The airlines constantly sell more tickets than they should. The airlines constantly fill the pockets of their ceo’s even when those same ceo’s are at the helm while the software systems that run these airlines are ticking time bombs

Southwest facing generational PR disaster here if they don’t fix fast. Stuff that ruins a brand (I have only flown them a couple times but I know people used to swear by them).

Just saw an interview with someone who was associated with the airline (pilot spokesperson of some sort I think) and he was saying they have software that handles canceled flights and placing pilots and staff as flights are canceled. Some sort of matrix type thing. This matrix once they get past a certain number of cancelations can’t handle the complexity and stops working.

This spokesperson said that they had repeatedly told management about this problem.

Ouch.

Airline is blaming weather and and refueling company staff shortages from a company in Denver.

Good luck all what a bad way to spend the holidays.

Reddit has numerous pilots saying it is the computer system and management is using labor as the excuse/fall guys because they’re all cowards. I know who I believe.

I mean this guy did this interview on a national show and was pretty clear where he was placing the blame.

The Feds are likely going to get involved at this point so SW better get ready for some rubber glove style probing.

You think the Fed will crumble and punish Southwest hard? The same fed that did nothing to the bankers and lenders that caused the economic bubble in 2008? The same fed that let Boeing safety test its own planes- and when it was discovered that Boeing lied and caused the deaths of hundreds of people- basically gave them a slap on the wrist and then proceeded to order more aircraft from them? Make no mistake- if the Fed punishes Southwest- it will be a drop in the bucket compared to the turmoil that Southwest has caused its passengers. I dont want to come across as a negative nancy- but lets not forget that our government just filled the pockets of Southwest with billions of dollars in covid money. Government punishment will be nothing more than a symbolic slap on the wrist imo.

We’ll see what happens. It’s a business that apparently made a poor choice in upgrading software.

Do you want them put out of business for instance?

I think they should be responsible for the time, effort, suffering, expenses for the damage done to their customers as a result of their failure to upgrade their software properly. If that puts them out of business—so be it. When big companies go out of business—it’s not like they just vanish. Generally speaking, companies that are run better and have better financials swoop in and purchase them and take them over. A real travesty is when a small business is forced to close its door because of no fault of its own—because that is often true business extinction for that business. My heart doesn’t cry for billion dollar companies that take billions of dollars from taxpayers, use that money to inflate stock prices as opposed to using it to make their business better and safer for it’s customers—and then chalk up their own failures as being mistakes that were unforeseen. I would bet that many executives at Southwest knew that their software situation was iffy at best.

How do you quantify that?

My rate is a thousand dollars an hour. That's my policy.

 

[the moops]

By the way, in their filings, they clearly state that being a low-cost airline is their biggest competitive advantage.

I’m not sure if that means anything. You think a passenger paying less for a ticket makes from a discount carrier makes it okay for them to be treated like garbage and should put them at higher risk of being abandoned at an airport?If i book a stay at a cheap hotel- my expectation is that I still get a room- even though I’m fully aware it wont have the luxuries that more expensive hotel chains have. I think we need to be careful not to confuse who the victims are here. Even a low cost airline has an obligation to run in a professional manner

No, in fact that's not what I said at all. I pointed out that they consider being a low-cost airline to be a big competitive advantage, which was in response to the discussion earlier as to whether they are "low cost" or not. Sheesh, calm down.

My apologies. Your comment could have been interpreted in different ways- and I clearly jumped to an interpretation that wasn’t your intent on my first read.

To be fair, it is always wise to think the worst of @krista4 for she is a devious one

 

[The General]

Human systems are what they are. It's never seems to be one big thing that causes the problem, but rather incremental errors cascade over time. And are compounded by the thinking of "it's such a short shortcut it won't matter".

The Titanic had too small of a rudder to go with too few lifeboats. As to the latter, the number was governmentally compliant - so who cares if it doesn't match the number of passengers?

The 2008 economic collapse. Sure people are buying houses they can't afford to pay back. But there's plenty of money around so let's just keep don't it anyway.

Deepwater Horizon, Chetnoby, Bhopal, 9/11...small flaws initiate ripples that lead to big, big problems.

Chaos theory in action, I suppose.

I’m not sure if I fully agree here. The airlines have been knowingly running with tiny margins for error for a long time by design. They have done so to maximize profits and to increase stock prices—as many of the compensation of the executives is in the form of stock. The difference between a small business and a huge one that constantly gets bailed out by government if they screw up is that small businesses are almost always forced to reinvest their earnings back into the business to retain employees and to stay competitive with the big boys. The big companies can invest as little as possible back into the actual business (to run lean) in order to make profits look bigger, raise stock prices—which in turn makes the CEO’s more money—and if they screw up—the tax payers and the government will bail them out. $7 billion in covid relief money, hundreds of millions of dollars in stock buy backs just before the pandemic—and Southwest Airlines is using an antiquated system to where they can’t match flight crews/pilots up with flights?

The 2008 economic collapse due to the housing bubble is another example of this. Most normal Americans are not going to turn down the opportunity of living and owning a home if their banker signs off on it and encourages them to do so. The bankers made a ton of money pumping up that bubble and suffered the least once it burst.

These particular instances are not mistakes like hitting a hidden ice berg, or an unforeseen error of a newish technology like the Titanic or Chernobyl were. What happened with the economic crisis in 2008 and what’s going on with airlines now—is absolutely done knowingly and predictably. The airlines constantly sell more tickets than they should. The airlines constantly fill the pockets of their ceo’s even when those same ceo’s are at the helm while the software systems that run these airlines are ticking time bombs

Southwest facing generational PR disaster here if they don’t fix fast. Stuff that ruins a brand (I have only flown them a couple times but I know people used to swear by them).

Just saw an interview with someone who was associated with the airline (pilot spokesperson of some sort I think) and he was saying they have software that handles canceled flights and placing pilots and staff as flights are canceled. Some sort of matrix type thing. This matrix once they get past a certain number of cancelations can’t handle the complexity and stops working.

This spokesperson said that they had repeatedly told management about this problem.

Ouch.

Airline is blaming weather and and refueling company staff shortages from a company in Denver.

Good luck all what a bad way to spend the holidays.

Reddit has numerous pilots saying it is the computer system and management is using labor as the excuse/fall guys because they’re all cowards. I know who I believe.

I mean this guy did this interview on a national show and was pretty clear where he was placing the blame.

The Feds are likely going to get involved at this point so SW better get ready for some rubber glove style probing.

You think the Fed will crumble and punish Southwest hard? The same fed that did nothing to the bankers and lenders that caused the economic bubble in 2008? The same fed that let Boeing safety test its own planes- and when it was discovered that Boeing lied and caused the deaths of hundreds of people- basically gave them a slap on the wrist and then proceeded to order more aircraft from them? Make no mistake- if the Fed punishes Southwest- it will be a drop in the bucket compared to the turmoil that Southwest has caused its passengers. I dont want to come across as a negative nancy- but lets not forget that our government just filled the pockets of Southwest with billions of dollars in covid money. Government punishment will be nothing more than a symbolic slap on the wrist imo.

We’ll see what happens. It’s a business that apparently made a poor choice in upgrading software.

Do you want them put out of business for instance?

I think they should be responsible for the time, effort, suffering, expenses for the damage done to their customers as a result of their failure to upgrade their software properly. If that puts them out of business—so be it. When big companies go out of business—it’s not like they just vanish. Generally speaking, companies that are run better and have better financials swoop in and purchase them and take them over. A real travesty is when a small business is forced to close its door because of no fault of its own—because that is often true business extinction for that business. My heart doesn’t cry for billion dollar companies that take billions of dollars from taxpayers, use that money to inflate stock prices as opposed to using it to make their business better and safer for it’s customers—and then chalk up their own failures as being mistakes that were unforeseen. I would bet that many executives at Southwest knew that their software situation was iffy at best.

How do you quantify that?

My rate is a thousand dollars an hour. That's my policy.

Stop being so cheap and fly a real airline

So working that out which hours do you get reimbursed, how does their poor planning get people compensated, how much does weather come into play as opposed to them being cheap on their software?

 

[Scoresman]

I wish you could fly Emirates from like Portland to LA. That first class looks amazing. This might be worth having a middle eastern country invade and conquer the US.

 

[culdeus]

OP never said exactly what flight he was on except the final destination Reagan and that it connected thru Dallas

Both flights out of Love made it so I think our hero is going to be able to get home tonight. Thank you baby jesus.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I asked because I think it is very difficult to do. The government is certainly going to have problems - like you did in your answer. Lawsuits and arbiters are going to run into any number of issues in actually fixing this problem. Lawsuits will certainly happen in any case.

I lean towards let customers decide as much as possible in an instance like this unless safety is involved. People can choose other airlines to fly that don’t strand them.

Back to my original comment the Feds are definitely going to crawl up SW’s *** and we’ll see what happens.

Generally I agree. That's capitalism. If it's not something life threatening, an airline doing a bad job will lead to fewer customers, so they'll be inclined to fix issues like this if it costs them business.

The thing that makes this potentially a little different though is that they just received $7B in taxpayer dollars.

 

[GoBirds]

OP never said exactly what flight he was on except the final destination Reagan and that it connected thru Dallas

Both flights out of Love made it so I think our hero is going to be able to get home tonight. Thank you baby jesus.

I love a happy ending.

 

[Don Quixote]

OP never said exactly what flight he was on except the final destination Reagan and that it connected thru Dallas

Both flights out of Love made it so I think our hero is going to be able to get home tonight. Thank you baby jesus.

Lol. I did indeed make it home tonight. Wife said that we should play the lottery with luck being on our side of being able to get home with no issues with everything going on.

 

[BeTheMatch]

Human systems are what they are. It's never seems to be one big thing that causes the problem, but rather incremental errors cascade over time. And are compounded by the thinking of "it's such a short shortcut it won't matter".

The Titanic had too small of a rudder to go with too few lifeboats. As to the latter, the number was governmentally compliant - so who cares if it doesn't match the number of passengers?

The 2008 economic collapse. Sure people are buying houses they can't afford to pay back. But there's plenty of money around so let's just keep don't it anyway.

Deepwater Horizon, Chetnoby, Bhopal, 9/11...small flaws initiate ripples that lead to big, big problems.

Chaos theory in action, I suppose.

I’m not sure if I fully agree here. The airlines have been knowingly running with tiny margins for error for a long time by design. They have done so to maximize profits and to increase stock prices—as many of the compensation of the executives is in the form of stock. The difference between a small business and a huge one that constantly gets bailed out by government if they screw up is that small businesses are almost always forced to reinvest their earnings back into the business to retain employees and to stay competitive with the big boys. The big companies can invest as little as possible back into the actual business (to run lean) in order to make profits look bigger, raise stock prices—which in turn makes the CEO’s more money—and if they screw up—the tax payers and the government will bail them out. $7 billion in covid relief money, hundreds of millions of dollars in stock buy backs just before the pandemic—and Southwest Airlines is using an antiquated system to where they can’t match flight crews/pilots up with flights?

The 2008 economic collapse due to the housing bubble is another example of this. Most normal Americans are not going to turn down the opportunity of living and owning a home if their banker signs off on it and encourages them to do so. The bankers made a ton of money pumping up that bubble and suffered the least once it burst.

These particular instances are not mistakes like hitting a hidden ice berg, or an unforeseen error of a newish technology like the Titanic or Chernobyl were. What happened with the economic crisis in 2008 and what’s going on with airlines now—is absolutely done knowingly and predictably. The airlines constantly sell more tickets than they should. The airlines constantly fill the pockets of their ceo’s even when those same ceo’s are at the helm while the software systems that run these airlines are ticking time bombs

Southwest facing generational PR disaster here if they don’t fix fast. Stuff that ruins a brand (I have only flown them a couple times but I know people used to swear by them).

Just saw an interview with someone who was associated with the airline (pilot spokesperson of some sort I think) and he was saying they have software that handles canceled flights and placing pilots and staff as flights are canceled. Some sort of matrix type thing. This matrix once they get past a certain number of cancelations can’t handle the complexity and stops working.

This spokesperson said that they had repeatedly told management about this problem.

Ouch.

Airline is blaming weather and and refueling company staff shortages from a company in Denver.

Good luck all what a bad way to spend the holidays.

Reddit has numerous pilots saying it is the computer system and management is using labor as the excuse/fall guys because they’re all cowards. I know who I believe.

I mean this guy did this interview on a national show and was pretty clear where he was placing the blame.

The Feds are likely going to get involved at this point so SW better get ready for some rubber glove style probing.

You think the Fed will crumble and punish Southwest hard? The same fed that did nothing to the bankers and lenders that caused the economic bubble in 2008? The same fed that let Boeing safety test its own planes- and when it was discovered that Boeing lied and caused the deaths of hundreds of people- basically gave them a slap on the wrist and then proceeded to order more aircraft from them? Make no mistake- if the Fed punishes Southwest- it will be a drop in the bucket compared to the turmoil that Southwest has caused its passengers. I dont want to come across as a negative nancy- but lets not forget that our government just filled the pockets of Southwest with billions of dollars in covid money. Government punishment will be nothing more than a symbolic slap on the wrist imo.

We’ll see what happens. It’s a business that apparently made a poor choice in upgrading software.

Do you want them put out of business for instance?

I think they should be responsible for the time, effort, suffering, expenses for the damage done to their customers as a result of their failure to upgrade their software properly. If that puts them out of business—so be it. When big companies go out of business—it’s not like they just vanish. Generally speaking, companies that are run better and have better financials swoop in and purchase them and take them over. A real travesty is when a small business is forced to close its door because of no fault of its own—because that is often true business extinction for that business. My heart doesn’t cry for billion dollar companies that take billions of dollars from taxpayers, use that money to inflate stock prices as opposed to using it to make their business better and safer for it’s customers—and then chalk up their own failures as being mistakes that were unforeseen. I would bet that many executives at Southwest knew that their software situation was iffy at best.

How do you quantify that?

My rate is a thousand dollars an hour. That's my policy.

Stop being so cheap and fly a real airline

So working that out which hours do you get reimbursed, how does their poor planning get people compensated, how much does weather come into play as opposed to them being cheap on their software?

I don't take Southwest. Their prices are ridiculous where I am. It's the principle of the thing. If I was in that Nashville airport, I'd be in jail right now and using my one phone call to contact Jackie Childs!! I'd turn my cancelled flight into a $10 million lawsuit. Just get me one SW customer on that jury.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

OP never said exactly what flight he was on except the final destination Reagan and that it connected thru Dallas

Both flights out of Love made it so I think our hero is going to be able to get home tonight. Thank you baby jesus.

Lol. I did indeed make it home tonight. Wife said that we should play the lottery with luck being on our side of being able to get home with no issues with everything going on.

I know 3 different people/families that had Southwest flights yesterday and today. Miraculously all of their flights went off without a hitch. With only 1/3rd of flights flying that's some pretty good luck for all three to make it without any problems.

 

[Zegras11]

Took about 1 minute to apply and 20 seconds to get approved for a Alaska Air CC. 50,000 free miles if you spend $2k in 90 days. Will take the wife like 9 minutes on that.

 

[Judge Smails]

Southwest is still the most cost effective airline if you buy their cheapest fare far in advance. You’ll get next to zero points for that fare and a bad # (checking in 24 hours in advance hardly matters anymore). Once you go to their other fares (anytime, business select) they are far from a low cost carrier.

I used to love SW because they had big planes, lots of routes and I could count on them. What other airline had captains helping to clean the plane to ensure a quick turnaround? They were on time the routes I flew. It just seems they’ve never been the same after Herb died

 

[massraider]

Lol. I did indeed make it home tonight. Wife said that we should play the lottery with luck being on our side of being able to get home with no issues with everything going on.

Just to be a #### you should post on social media how Southwest Airlines never disappoints.

 

[Don Quixote]

Lol. I did indeed make it home tonight. Wife said that we should play the lottery with luck being on our side of being able to get home with no issues with everything going on.

Just to be a #### you should post on social media how Southwest Airlines never disappoints.

VIP experience with Southwest. No lines at check-in or bag drop. No wait at runway to take off. Made me feel like I was on the only flight of the day.

 

[massraider]

If you are reading this thread, and DON'T have a proper travel credit card, please look into it.

All these people standing in line at Southwest counter, should have been on the phone with Chase or Amex getting sorted out.

 

[New Binky the Doormat]

Southwest is still the most cost effective airline if you buy their cheapest fare far in advance. You’ll get next to zero points for that fare and a bad # (checking in 24 hours in advance hardly matters anymore). Once you go to their other fares (anytime, business select) they are far from a low cost carrier.

I used to love SW because they had big planes, lots of routes and I could count on them. What other airline had captains helping to clean the plane to ensure a quick turnaround? They were on time the routes I flew. It just seems they’ve never been the same after Herb died

Herb is rolling in his grave right now.

and has been for some time.

 

[belljr]

If you are reading this thread, and DON'T have a proper travel credit card, please look into it.

All these people standing in line at Southwest counter, should have been on the phone with Chase or Amex getting sorted out.

I fly maybe once every 2 to 3 years.... I don't think it's for me

 

[sho nuff]

I wish you could fly Emirates from like Portland to LA. That first class looks amazing. This might be worth having a middle eastern country invade and conquer the US.

Wife flew Emrites to India (business class)…and it was really nice for that. She got bumped to first class on the way back and saidnit was just so much better still.
She liked Emrites better than Qatar and better than the American/British Airways combo they had one trip (she has made 3 trips there)

 

[culdeus]

Took about 1 minute to apply and 20 seconds to get approved for a Alaska Air CC. 50,000 free miles if you spend $2k in 90 days. Will take the wife like 9 minutes on that.

Why burn a 5/24 slot for this?

 

[Capella]

If you are reading this thread, and DON'T have a proper travel credit card, please look into it.

All these people standing in line at Southwest counter, should have been on the phone with Chase or Amex getting sorted out.

1000%

 

[The Z Machine]

I wish you could fly Emirates from like Portland to LA. That first class looks amazing. This might be worth having a middle eastern country invade and conquer the US.

Wife flew Emrites to India (business class)…and it was really nice for that. She got bumped to first class on the way back and saidnit was just so much better still.
She liked Emrites better than Qatar and better than the American/British Airways combo they had one trip (she has made 3 trips there)

Yup. When my wife flies to Africa (Kenya, Ethiopia, Mozambique mostly) she prefers European carriers because it breaks the flights up into 2x 8 hour legs, but the service and amenities on Emirates (especially biz class or better) are outstanding. She even said coach on Emirates is like business class on United.

The domestic airlines in the US that fly international routes suck. Don't even get be started on the horrible flight attendants on United. Literally the worst.