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Staunch Moderates? (1 Viewer)

Joe Bryant

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Saw this today. Know next to nothing about it and have no idea if it’s good. But on the surface seemed attractive. My guess/fear is it’ll die quickly as instantly people will disagree that a view is “moderate” and it’ll fall into the normal downward spiral. But who knows. https://www.staunchmoderates.org/

 
First step in how they'll struggle. I went to their youtube channel and first thing I saw was a pre roll advertisement (that they don't have control over) for concealed carry holsters. They'll lose half the viewers with that instantly. 

If they have a chance, they're going to have to forgo that kind of monetization from Youtube. 

 
Signing up by providing your full name and email address will entitle you to our Manifesto, News Letters, free Staunch Moderates™ T-shirt and sticker to wear and display as a Staunch Moderate, and future access to participate in Staunch Moderates™ member forums, in accordance with the Terms of Use. If you would like a T-#### & sticker, please contact us
I like how they accidentally left "Manifesto" on the page.   They obviously edited it out because the word manifesto is now associated with crazy ideas.

Too bad their discussion forums haven't gotten off the ground.  I'd be interested to see what they look like.

 
From their About Us page:

If you live in the United States, you know that the country is more divided than ever. Republicans and Democrats have moved to opposite sides and do not show any interest in compromising. Our political leaders’ divisiveness means that proposed solutions to issues such as the economy, immigration, and the ongoing pandemic become fodder for squabbling that accomplishes nothing. Staunch Moderates believe we can find common ground that benefits everyone.

Our moderate political party believes that compromise and negotiation are essential to achieving some of the country’s most pressing goals. Unlike others in the political spectrum, our moderate politicians understand the importance of listening to all viewpoints. We treat everyone with respect because we know that consideration is the foundation of building consensus.

A self-centered approach to politics means that you only care about those who share your views. Rather than tainting the political discussion with ideological venom, we believe in examining whether our response to opposing views serves anyone. We focus on building a productive platform to achieve national and global peace.

Our organization welcomes vigorous discussion with others who share our moderate political views. Contact our moderate political party for additional information about our philosophy.
Sounds like a whole lot of pabulum to me. They just keep repeating the word "moderate" over and over again. They're against "divisiveness" and in favor of "compromise" and "listening to all viewpoints". Are they also in favor of "cute puppies"?

My first-ever presidential vote was for Bill Clinton, and for most of the '90s I considered myself a "moderate Democrat". And in many ways I still am one, in the sense that there are lots of issues (Medicare for All, education reform) where I don't agree with the progressives at the far end of the party. But what I've mostly become disillusioned with is the moderates themselves. Partly that's because moderation became a mindless splitting of the difference that led to Democrats supporting Bush's tax cuts and the Iraq War. Also, too often moderation took a very specific cast of being "socially liberal and fiscally conservative", which led to some really bad policies like Clinton repealing Glass-Steagal and Obama going way too easy on Wall Street after it caused the Great Recession. Worst of all, that left a huge political opening for Trump and his totally insincere, but nonetheless effective, economic populism.

Oh, and don't even get me started on the so-called "moderate Republicans" who have mostly been hunted to extinction or twist themselves into pretzels to justify their continued allegiance to a party that doesn't come close to representing them (eg, Susan Collins voting for Gorsuch and Kavanaugh because she believed they wouldn't overturn Roe, then voting against Trump's impeachment because "he's learned his lesson").

But my biggest problem with a lot of so-called "moderates" is that they don't ultimately have any solutions to the problems they decry. Our politics hasn't gotten so polarized because people got worse or forgot how to listen to others. There are structural factors driving a lot of this, and if you're not coming to the table with solutions to those factors you're not helping. Like, you hate our two-party system? Great, so do I, but as long as we have the Electoral College, it's not going anywhere, since voting third party is throwing your vote away. I have no idea if ranked-choice voting or multi-member districts or other reforms will actually solve these problems, but if you're not even discussing them then GTFO.

 
Are they also in favor of "cute puppies"?
This is literally my platform if I run for President. I told this to my wife years ago. Free puppies for everybody who wants one. It also creates jobs because you're going to need more vets, dog walkers, pooper scoopers, etc. Win win, everybody is happy. 

 
Saw this today. Know next to nothing about it and have no idea if it’s good. But on the surface seemed attractive. My guess/fear is it’ll die quickly as instantly people will disagree that a view is “moderate” and it’ll fall into the normal downward spiral. But who knows. https://www.staunchmoderates.org/


This is a very good topic.

There are a lot of people out there who are "politically homeless" and that's really unfortunate. For Republicans, it's been basically seven years of sweeping generalizations over hunting down Donald Trump. That's just plain exhausting. A lot of Conservatives feel like they are being held hostage as Trump doesn't not represent the total mindset of all Republicans, but the "First Past The Post" system means they have to vote one way versus what amounts to nothing at all. On the flip side, there are probably still 15-20 million Pro Life Democrats in this country who were complete disenfranchised by their Party. And many traditional liberals were dragged along for the ride as the more radical elements of Team Blue took over. Again, you have a lot of people feeling like they are hostages. They can't abide by Republicans but they have to hold their nose to vote for many Democrats on the ballot.

But there's the market share element to all this. Chris Rock once pointed out that many black celebrities in entertainment grimace when a movie like Soul Plane comes out. Because it reduces the mainstream view of African Americans as a type of unrealistic over the top caricatures. But Rock admits that people will make what the audience has shown they will pay to see.

This is something I notice casually with Breaking Points, with Saagar Enjeti and Krystal Ball. There is a slight tonal shift to make their product more marketable as time goes on. And here is where things can get dangerous. Because marketable often means leaning into hard partisan energy. Ben Shapiro and the Daily Wire offer a more pseudo Grantland approach to politics, but it's still hard edged partisan for money. And Grantland failed ( That still bothers me to this day)

Moderate discussion is not profitable, and the best pursuit pathway exists because it's an open niche. But it's an open niche because it's not profitable. When you have a situation like this, you need certain personality types to do the heavy lifting. That's a type of charismatic pull that's hard to find and sustain. You only get an Al Michaels type or a Vin Scully type every so often.

The failures of most moderate discussion and platforms is they don't have a simple guide post. What is the best one?

Well I've said it before - Will supporting X or Y, or alternatively opposing it, create a better world for our children to inherit.

It's the main litmus test that I use. When people see no real loss when they don't listen and don't show empathy, it means nothing to stay brutal. However if they know their children will inherit pain, suffering and death in the generations to come, then it tugs at their view of legacy and duty. Many years ago, when my godson was young, some channel flipping found a reality show called "Bad Girls Club" Where women were just brutal to each other. They lived together and inflicted non stop pain and chaos on each other for sport. My godson asked me, how do you stop them from arguing. I said make an 8 year old little boy live with them. They might still despise each other, but they aren't going to cut each other's throats in front of a little boy. It gives them someone and something to focus on other than their self inflicted drama.

Toeing the middle is close to inoperable without a universally accepted litmus test.

I do think there is some market pathway for the before mentioned "politically homeless" out there. As I've said before, I have great empathy for traditional liberals. My politics don't often align with them often, but I recognize they probably despise the radical left and woke extremism more than even I do. I see them less as ideological opposition and more as reluctant hostages of their own Party's greed and lust for power. The GOP is no less ruthless. Imagine how difficult it might be for a Republican who is also a black lesbian.

In the end, you have to be OK with be non marketable if that's the price for authenticity. I have a top level thread on diesel I support here that I know is just plain boring for most in the forums. But I find it important and interesting and I keep supporting it. Same with Hispanic voters and Brittney Griner.  I could pick things that would generate more traffic, but I have the luxury of not being under pressure to keep up a certain number of likes, subscribes, views, etc, etc to generate revenue to keep a platform afloat. I like what I like because I like it.

Effective moderate political discussion needs a better conduit. It's not hard to package hard line tribalism. You could be a hack like Tim Pool and make a living off of that. But it's a struggle to take the mundane and make it interesting. That's an exceedingly rare skill set. Once you add monetization into it, it's close to impossible to maintain financially. Like I said before, Grantland failed and it failed for a reason. But I still loved Grantland. I don't agree with Bill Simmons on everything, but he held to his vision even when it was going to cost him.

Something I said to @Sigmund Bloom about his podcast years ago was that all that mattered was people understood that he loved football. If people could see the purpose and passion behind that love, in an authentic way, then everything else ( money, viewers, listeners, ads, guests, etc, etc) would take care of itself naturally in it's own course.

I think it's less critical to remove bias but more important to maintain authenticity. That's the path to real dialogue and exchange of ideas. It's rarely moving to people on how you feel on it's own, but more that how you feel translates and impacts how they perceived themselves. It's a type of "necessary vanity" within us all. Or as Shepherd Book says - I don't care what you believe. Just believe in it.

This is a good topic.

 
It would be interesting to see how many are true moderates.   Unfortunately the system allows the tail to wag the dog.  I really have little interest in moving away from the electoral college though.

 
Sounds like a whole lot of pabulum to me.
Would be nice if you decided to check Merriam-Webster or Oxford English Dictionary before proceeding into a sort-of diatribe about why you think it's pabulum. Your laments about "divisiveness" and "compromise" might even give you pause had you stopped to think about the word means. 

But hey, you do you. Flame away that the inherent meaning of the word comes through in their platform. Sometimes we just like to stomp flowers. Or establish Overton windows on some message board somewhere, because what you're really doing is complaining that their policy preferences aren't left enough even though you think you're not a leftist. 

 
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This is a very good topic.

There are a lot of people out there who are "politically homeless" and that's really unfortunate. For Republicans, it's been basically seven years of sweeping generalizations over hunting down Donald Trump. That's just plain exhausting. A lot of Conservatives feel like they are being held hostage as Trump doesn't not represent the total mindset of all Republicans, but the "First Past The Post" system means they have to vote one way versus what amounts to nothing at all. On the flip side, there are probably still 15-20 million Pro Life Democrats in this country who were complete disenfranchised by their Party. And many traditional liberals were dragged along for the ride as the more radical elements of Team Blue took over. Again, you have a lot of people feeling like they are hostages. They can't abide by Republicans but they have to hold their nose to vote for many Democrats on the ballot.

But there's the market share element to all this. Chris Rock once pointed out that many black celebrities in entertainment grimace when a movie like Soul Plane comes out. Because it reduces the mainstream view of African Americans as a type of unrealistic over the top caricatures. But Rock admits that people will make what the audience has shown they will pay to see.

This is something I notice casually with Breaking Points, with Saagar Enjeti and Krystal Ball. There is a slight tonal shift to make their product more marketable as time goes on. And here is where things can get dangerous. Because marketable often means leaning into hard partisan energy. Ben Shapiro and the Daily Wire offer a more pseudo Grantland approach to politics, but it's still hard edged partisan for money. And Grantland failed ( That still bothers me to this day)

Moderate discussion is not profitable, and the best pursuit pathway exists because it's an open niche. But it's an open niche because it's not profitable. When you have a situation like this, you need certain personality types to do the heavy lifting. That's a type of charismatic pull that's hard to find and sustain. You only get an Al Michaels type or a Vin Scully type every so often.

The failures of most moderate discussion and platforms is they don't have a simple guide post. What is the best one?

Well I've said it before - Will supporting X or Y, or alternatively opposing it, create a better world for our children to inherit.

It's the main litmus test that I use. When people see no real loss when they don't listen and don't show empathy, it means nothing to stay brutal. However if they know their children will inherit pain, suffering and death in the generations to come, then it tugs at their view of legacy and duty. Many years ago, when my godson was young, some channel flipping found a reality show called "Bad Girls Club" Where women were just brutal to each other. They lived together and inflicted non stop pain and chaos on each other for sport. My godson asked me, how do you stop them from arguing. I said make an 8 year old little boy live with them. They might still despise each other, but they aren't going to cut each other's throats in front of a little boy. It gives them someone and something to focus on other than their self inflicted drama.

Toeing the middle is close to inoperable without a universally accepted litmus test.

I do think there is some market pathway for the before mentioned "politically homeless" out there. As I've said before, I have great empathy for traditional liberals. My politics don't often align with them often, but I recognize they probably despise the radical left and woke extremism more than even I do. I see them less as ideological opposition and more as reluctant hostages of their own Party's greed and lust for power. The GOP is no less ruthless. Imagine how difficult it might be for a Republican who is also a black lesbian.

In the end, you have to be OK with be non marketable if that's the price for authenticity. I have a top level thread on diesel I support here that I know is just plain boring for most in the forums. But I find it important and interesting and I keep supporting it. Same with Hispanic voters and Brittney Griner.  I could pick things that would generate more traffic, but I have the luxury of not being under pressure to keep up a certain number of likes, subscribes, views, etc, etc to generate revenue to keep a platform afloat. I like what I like because I like it.

Effective moderate political discussion needs a better conduit. It's not hard to package hard line tribalism. You could be a hack like Tim Pool and make a living off of that. But it's a struggle to take the mundane and make it interesting. That's an exceedingly rare skill set. Once you add monetization into it, it's close to impossible to maintain financially. Like I said before, Grantland failed and it failed for a reason. But I still loved Grantland. I don't agree with Bill Simmons on everything, but he held to his vision even when it was going to cost him.

Something I said to @Sigmund Bloom about his podcast years ago was that all that mattered was people understood that he loved football. If people could see the purpose and passion behind that love, in an authentic way, then everything else ( money, viewers, listeners, ads, guests, etc, etc) would take care of itself naturally in it's own course.

I think it's less critical to remove bias but more important to maintain authenticity. That's the path to real dialogue and exchange of ideas. It's rarely moving to people on how you feel on it's own, but more that how you feel translates and impacts how they perceived themselves. It's a type of "necessary vanity" within us all. Or as Shepherd Book says - I don't care what you believe. Just believe in it.

This is a good topic.


I agree the difficulty in monetizing seems like a giant hurdle. Lots more money, for a lot less effort, in stoking the tribalism fires. 

 
rockaction said:
Would be nice if you decided to check Merriam-Webster or Oxford English Dictionary before proceeding into a sort-of diatribe about why you think it's pabulum. Your laments about "divisiveness" and "compromise" might even give you pause had you stopped to think about the word means. 

But hey, you do you. Flame away that the inherent meaning of the word comes through in their platform. Sometimes we just like to stomp flowers. Or establish Overton windows on some message board somewhere, because what you're really doing is complaining that their policy preferences aren't left enough even though you think you're not a leftist. 
Dude.

I like you, we've had plenty of positive interactions in both this forum and the Shark Pool, and from what I can remember of your posts, I think we're fairly aligned politically. But it seems like every few months I say something in a post (usually ancillary to my main point) that, for reasons I can't fathom, absolutely sets you off. In this case it was apparently my use of the word "pabulum". I'm not sure why you think I don't know the meaning of the word, why you think it doesn't apply to that website's manifesto, and, above all, why you're so mad about it.

But I will say that if your takeaway from my post was that my problem with that site in is that they don't agree with my leftist worldview, then you took away the exact opposite of the point I was making. First of all, I couldn't possibly have argued that I disagreed with the website's policy positions, since they literally didn't state any. I did say that I disagreed with the expressed policy positions of many moderate elected officials, but not for ideological reasons. I don't think repealing Glass-Steagal was bad because it set back the cause of the Glorious Socialist Revolution, I think it was bad because it led to increased financialization of our economy and was a major contributor to the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression.

I don't deny that I have certain ideological views and that they lean toward the left, but I'm pretty functionalist when it comes to policies. To paraphrase Lincoln, if we could maximize long-term economic growth with an economy that was 100% capitalist, I would support that, if we could do it with an economy that's 100% socialist, I would support that, and if we could do it with one that borrows elements from both, I would also support that. My critique of moderates over the past couple decades is that they've been utterly ineffective. Hell, even on what they claim to be their top priority -- reducing political polarization -- they've failed miserably. And as I said in my post, the reason they've failed is not because they're not left-wing enough, nor is it because "moderation" is bad. It's because they rely on bromides rather than confront the structural factors that are driving polarization and other destructive trends in our politics. Reading that website, I see them making the exact same mistake.

(Credit where it's due: I'm not the biggest Andrew Yang fan, and I don't know if the Forward Party will end up having much of an impact, but it at least does center electoral reforms as a mechanism for reducing polarization. I hope it's successful in that regard.)

Finally -- and I mean this sincerely -- if there's something I've written in any of my posts that offended you, know that it wasn't intentional. Like I said, I have nothing against you, and I'm genuinely at a loss for why you seem so ticked off at me.

 
Finally -- and I mean this sincerely -- if there's something I've written in any of my posts that offended you, know that it wasn't intentional. Like I said, I have nothing against you, and I'm genuinely at a loss for why you seem so ticked off at me.
I see what you're saying. I'll try and tone it down in the future. That post is not coming off the way I want it to. That post I posted sounds much sharper than my verbal reading tone is giving me, and I can see where it sounds like pure fury. It's not, and it wasn't intended to be. 

But I really can see upon re-reading it where you'd get that. My apologies. I actually thought I was being funny. That would not be the case on a cold reading of it. 

"Sometimes you just like to stomp flowers" is from an old story I have about National Review and gays that, Richard Cowan, who was the president of NORML back when that was a thing, was telling me about when we and others hung out one night in D.C. There's an elephant tromping in the field of flowers and one of the smaller animals asks him "Why are you doing that?" The elephant, looks, leers, and just says "Because sometimes I like to stomp pansies." 

That was how Cowan felt that his former mates on the right treated gays. For some reason, when somebody is shooting fish in a barrel, like shooting the intellectual underpinnings of "moderates" when their consistency of ideology comes up for examination, it reminds me of that. 

 
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