Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Sounds good in theory, but I think Bettis is under the assumption that Wallace isn't a complete dummy.
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Steelers Broke and 4-6, Bengals Division Champs (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Touchdown There
- Start date
AJ's dumbassery starts a couple years before that when he had the leverage to sign VJ to a long-term deal for substantially less than that, but refused to do so. He can blame the CBA uncertainty, he can blame VJ's driving with a suspended license ticket, but he should just blame himself for failing to lockup a promising young talent
That's some grade A bull####. How can a team that failed to make the playoffs the year before NOT foresee that losing their leading receiver for most of the season would negatively impact their playoff chances? If AJ truly couldn't grasp that, he's an even bigger idiot than I thought.
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toenail_23
Footballguy
Tau837
Footballguy
A.J. could not foresee these injuries:RB1 Mathews missed 4 games
TE1 Gates missed 6 games
WR2 Floyd missed 5 games
WR3 Naanee missed 6 games
WR4 Crayton missed 6 games
WR5 Davis missed 9 games
Are you disagreeing with that?
I also don't see how he could foresee how bad the Chargers special teams would be. The special teams cost the Chargers at least 2 games (KC and SEA), and arguably also the first OAK game.
I believe all of the following is true:
1. Had Jackson played a full season in 2010, the Chargers would have made the playoffs.
2. A.J. Smith could and should have stuck to his principles with Jackson on a long term extension without being such a hard ### about it. He could have taken the high road, as the Steelers have done with Wallace.
3. Had the Chargers not suffered so many injuries in 2010, they would have made the playoffs.
4. Had the Chargers not been so historically bad on special teams in 2010, they would have made the playoffs.
Smith and Jackson (both sides) are responsible for #1. Smith is responsible for #2, but I doubt it would have made a difference in terms of getting Jackson on the field. Smith was not responsible for #3 and #4.
And I can't say I appreciate your reaction to my post, as if my opinion as a Chargers fan who follows the team closely is any less valid than yours.
flc735
Footballguy
could you explain why pit is taking the high road here as compared to sd?im not disagreeing, just wondering
Tau837
Footballguy
Two things:1. Smith was aggressive in his comments, kind of a jerk. Steelers haven't done that.2. Smith reduced Jackson's tender when that date came. Steelers chose not to do that even though they can.
I repeat1. The team missed the playoffs the year before
2. VJ was their leading receiver
AJ had absolutely ZERO reason to be comfortable about making the playoffs without VJ. He knew allowing VJ to sit all season was a huge risk, but he took the gamble anyways. He should have paid the price for losing that bet.
Irrelevant. He knew the Chargers were NOT a shoo-in to make the playoffs. He intentionally kept one of their best players off the field most of the season. He should bear the responsibility for his decisions.
2010 should never been an issue because AJ should have signed VJ long-term after the 2008 season when1) it was clear VJ was someone special
2) VJ's rookie contract had expired
2) AJ had the leverage of potentially 2 more years of RFA
He could have negotiated a much more attractive long-term deal at that point and it's incredibly stupid that he didn't.
But even 2010 wasn't a lost cause. 2011 showed that the Chargers were willing to pay $11.4 million for one year of his services. MAYBE if they had made a more reasonable offer, say $8-9 million, VJ would have played all of the 2010 season as well
Again the blame lies with the GM for not working something out to get VJ on the field.
I don't appreciate you saying that the person who holds ultimate responsibility for the team can't be held responsible for missing the playoffs when it was his decision to keep one of his best players off the team for most of the season. The buck stops with AJ. The decision was his. The consequences should be too.AJ took a team that had a decent chance of making some noise in the playoffs and messed with it just enough to deny them the opportunity. They had some horrible luck during the season, but were THAT close to overcoming it anyways. Instead AJ let his ego and stupidity keep VJ off the field, and now he has to pay.And I can't say I appreciate your reaction to my post, as if my opinion as a Chargers fan who follows the team closely is any less valid than yours.
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Tau837
Footballguy
You basically ignored my questions and arguments in favor of your own. Unlike you, I respect another Chargers fan's opinion that is different than my own. So I will agree to disagree with you at this point to avoid further derailing this thread.'craxie said:I repeat1. The team missed the playoffs the year before
2. VJ was their leading receiver
AJ had absolutely ZERO reason to be comfortable about making the playoffs without VJ. He knew allowing VJ to sit all season was a huge risk, but he took the gamble anyways. He should have paid the price for losing that bet.
Irrelevant. He knew the Chargers were NOT a shoo-in to make the playoffs. He intentionally kept one of their best players off the field most of the season. He should bear the responsibility for his decisions.2010 should never been an issue because AJ should have signed VJ long-term after the 2008 season when1) it was clear VJ was someone special
2) VJ's rookie contract had expired
2) AJ had the leverage of potentially 2 more years of RFA
He could have negotiated a much more attractive long-term deal at that point and it's incredibly stupid that he didn't.
But even 2010 wasn't a lost cause. 2011 showed that the Chargers were willing to pay $11.4 million for one year of his services. MAYBE if they had made a more reasonable offer, say $8-9 million, VJ would have played all of the 2010 season as well
Again the blame lies with the GM for not working something out to get VJ on the field.
I don't appreciate you saying that the person who holds ultimate responsibility for the team can't be held responsible for missing the playoffs when it was his decision to keep one of his best players off the team for most of the season. The buck stops with AJ. The decision was his. The consequences should be too.AJ took a team that had a decent chance of making some noise in the playoffs and messed with it just enough to deny them the opportunity. They had some horrible luck during the season, but were THAT close to overcoming it anyways. Instead AJ let his ego and stupidity keep VJ off the field, and now he has to pay.And I can't say I appreciate your reaction to my post, as if my opinion as a Chargers fan who follows the team closely is any less valid than yours.
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
@AdamSchefter: He always could change his mind, but Pittsburgh WR Mike Wallace is expected to report back to Steelers before the regular season begins.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Can we stop all the AJ Smith discussion. That's not why people come into this thread. Wallace, Brown, Sanders owners don't care about Smith, VJax, the Bucs or the Chargers. We care about what's going on with Wallace and the Steelers...
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Insoxicated
Amused to Death
Footballguy
strong
Footballguy
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It already stopped two days ago until all y'all decided to bring it up again and keep polluting the thread.A regular bunch of geniuses here . . .
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TheFanatic
Footballguy
Because someone hadn't commented on this idiotic argument in 2 days it's over? You don't think the hair pulling and slapping won't start up again as soon as Wallace does or does not report to camp? But I'm no genius and didn't realize that once an argument had no comments for 48 hours, it was over. Thanks for clarifying. Mensa must be proud to have you....
very good possibility
maybe, maybe not, but here's an idea: why not wait to see it actually starts up again before whining?Instead we have a whole new flame fest because of your desire to dredge up a dead conversation
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TheFanatic
Footballguy
So, I don't check in to this thread for a few days and when I do have to weed through the hissy fit and am not allowed to comment on it the knee deep crap? Thanks for clarifying that. You ladies want to get back to crying about whether or not VJax got screwed or not and then #####ing about people that would rather you take the inane argument to another thread or offline completely? Hey, Craxie, the FFA called. They want their thread nazi back. The rest of us would like to get back to solid NFL news and analysis without having to sift through a bunch of bruised internet egos or as we call it the yellowing of the Shark Pool...
Clifford
Footballguy
Schefter has said "before the regular season" and I don't know what's going on in Wallace's head, but that makes the most sense. I expect Wallace to report some time this week or next.
I hate that he is missing out on camp time, but I don't share Rotoworld's pessimism that this will keep him from starting. Steelers will be glad to get him back and up to speed as quickly as possible. Plus he has the playbook.
I hate that he is missing out on camp time, but I don't share Rotoworld's pessimism that this will keep him from starting. Steelers will be glad to get him back and up to speed as quickly as possible. Plus he has the playbook.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
I just heard Schefty say that on NFL Live. Then they talked to Chris Carter and Jerry Rice and mentioned that he has had problems staying in shape in the offseason and that they were both concerned at how out of shape he would be and thus not all that effective early on if he reports right before the season starts.
pghrob
Footballguy
Concerns of him being out of shape do not jive with reports from his private trainer that he is in great shape and lightening fast. http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/08/wallace-working-out-with-tom-shaw-in-florida-could-report-soon/
TheFanatic
Footballguy
I trust his private trainer as much as I do a use car salesman telling me that the engine is supposed to sound that way. What is a guy paid by Wallace going to say? The more Wallace makes, the more the guy can charge him to keep him in shape.Besides, any NFL player or coach will say that there is no way to get into game shape by yourself with a trainer...
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
He reports after the second pre-season game. Hopefully they come to terms on a 5 year deal before week 1.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
I saw a quote where the trainer said he was lightning fast but no comment on his shape whatsoever. I saw more comments about the media and the contract than about his conditioning. So from that fluff piece, can you honestly say that he's in game shape? I heard Chris Carter and Jerry Rice say there is no way he can be in game shape working out with a trainer and it will take at least three weeks to get him up to speed (which has more to do than just speed like conditioning, flexibility, strength, understand the offense, learn the routes etc) and that can only be achieved by working with other players and coaches, all pushing the individual farther than he can with just a trainer.But hey, run with that report and trade for Wallace and start him week 1. Your opponent that week will appreciate it. If he gets into camp tomorrow, he could be ready, but if he waits a week before the season, I wouldn't be starting him until he showed me he had a command of the offense and was in game shape.
Clifford
Footballguy
If "word" is basically out that Wallace is not going to miss games, what is the point of holding out any further. It's not like there is a 1% chance of the Steelers caving to get him into camp. Maybe he just doesn't like camp? Also, if he is going to play in the last preseason game, he would have to be in there for a while before then to get activated, right?
treat88
Footballguy
Not sure that really counts as a fluff piece, but I agree, he will be behind behind the curve from both a conditioning and a playbook standpoint early in the season.
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
Taylor: Wallace steps up drills, will be greeted by open arms
By Ray Fittipaldo / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Receiver Mike Wallace continues to keep in touch with his Steelers teammates during his absence from training camp, and it appears he is ramping up his fitness activities.
One teammate close to Wallace said late last week he expects Wallace to report to the team "soon."
According to cornerback Ike Taylor, Wallace has relocated to Florida to work out with noted trainer Tom Shaw. Taylor said Wallace is staying at his Orlando residence and driving his car to and from workouts.
"I don't do that with too many people," Taylor said. "We're from the same area. If I can do anything to help out the team, the situation, I'll do it."
Wallace's agent, Bus Cook, has remained silent on his client's status throughout his absence from the team. He did not return a phone call again Tuesday.
Taylor said Wallace will not encounter any negativity from his teammates once he returns.
"He's working out," Taylor said. "He's working hard. Whenever he gets back, we're going to welcome him back with open arms. Mike is taking care of Mike right now. As long as he is working out and getting in football shape, that's all that matters."
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/taylor-wallace-steps-up-drills-will-be-greeted-by-open-arms-649004/
By Ray Fittipaldo / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Receiver Mike Wallace continues to keep in touch with his Steelers teammates during his absence from training camp, and it appears he is ramping up his fitness activities.
One teammate close to Wallace said late last week he expects Wallace to report to the team "soon."
According to cornerback Ike Taylor, Wallace has relocated to Florida to work out with noted trainer Tom Shaw. Taylor said Wallace is staying at his Orlando residence and driving his car to and from workouts.
"I don't do that with too many people," Taylor said. "We're from the same area. If I can do anything to help out the team, the situation, I'll do it."
Wallace's agent, Bus Cook, has remained silent on his client's status throughout his absence from the team. He did not return a phone call again Tuesday.
Taylor said Wallace will not encounter any negativity from his teammates once he returns.
"He's working out," Taylor said. "He's working hard. Whenever he gets back, we're going to welcome him back with open arms. Mike is taking care of Mike right now. As long as he is working out and getting in football shape, that's all that matters."
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/taylor-wallace-steps-up-drills-will-be-greeted-by-open-arms-649004/
Godsbrother
Footballguy
The Steelers break camp on Friday so he has managed to avoid it. If he plans on playing on opening day then I agree that there is little point in continuing the holdout. Even if he reports over the weekend he probably wouldn't suit up against Buffalo in the third preseason game and would only play a quarter in the final preseason game so it is not like he is taking a huge additional injury risk.Might as well come in to give yourself more time to get familiar with the offense and get the timing down with Ben. Also if there is any hope in working out a long term deal the more time to negotiate the better because the Steelers won't talk once the regular season starts.
Clifford
Footballguy
More optimism from another teammate, but still no Wallace:
Emmanuel Sanders expects holdout Mike Wallace to report to the Steelers "pretty soon."
It sounds like Wallace is planning to sign his one-year tender once the Steelers get back to Pittsburgh next week. "There's light at the end of the tunnel ... for the end of training camp and for Mike coming back," Sanders said. "The puzzle is starting to come together. ... I don't know the exact date, but it's looking pretty good."
Kinda getting a bit frustrated as a new Wallace owner, but all signs seem to be pointing in the right direction.
Emmanuel Sanders expects holdout Mike Wallace to report to the Steelers "pretty soon."
It sounds like Wallace is planning to sign his one-year tender once the Steelers get back to Pittsburgh next week. "There's light at the end of the tunnel ... for the end of training camp and for Mike coming back," Sanders said. "The puzzle is starting to come together. ... I don't know the exact date, but it's looking pretty good."
Kinda getting a bit frustrated as a new Wallace owner, but all signs seem to be pointing in the right direction.
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
@jimwexell: Ike Taylor thinks teammates a bit too optimistic, & to expect his buddy Wallace week after next.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
It looks like we all, some more than others, made this much, much bigger than a guy using his contract as a way to get out of going to camp. Orlando Pace did this more years than he didn't and that guy is probably a HOFer.
If that is the case, makes the bickering in this thread even more ridonkulous.
If that is the case, makes the bickering in this thread even more ridonkulous.
Stewyfootballhead
Footballguy
Hold out, speed receiver, 3-1 odds hamstring issues by week 4 IF and when he reports.
I'll have a double shot of Emmanuel Sanders in the 12th..........
I'll have a double shot of Emmanuel Sanders in the 12th..........
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Looks like, despite the holdout, Wallace is still the Pittsburgh WR who knows how to score touchdowns. Antonio Brown is really good, too, but two touchdown catches on 80 catches since the start of last season is glaring.
Steel Dillo
Footballguy
Where'd all the doom & gloom guys go?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Serious question: do you really still think this? Wallace today showed again why he is so valuable. The Steelers don't win that game w/o him making that great play to score the touchdown. Brown is basically a very good possession receiver. Wallace, meanwhile, is a game-breaking WR, one who can take any pass to the house, kind of like Victor Cruz.
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Cant speak for EG, but I definitely think Brown is a better all around WR.Brown was hurt for most of this game, so its a weird time to quote this statement. Plus, Wallace has been dropping balls all year and so when he makes 1 big play he is better than Brown??
Wallace's big play ability is off the charts, and while I dont think he is a top 10-20 WR all around at this point, his speed gives him that opportunity.
Im almost confused. Why is Wallace so great all of a sudden?! Because he made his 1st great play of the season?! He did this at least 3 times by now the last couple of years
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Cant speak for EG, but I definitely think Brown is a better all around WR.Brown was hurt for most of this game, so its a weird time to quote this statement. Plus, Wallace has been dropping balls all year and so when he makes 1 big play he is better than Brown??
Wallace's big play ability is off the charts, and while I dont think he is a top 10-20 WR all around at this point, his speed gives him that opportunity.
Im almost confused. Why is Wallace so great all of a sudden?! Because he made his 1st great play of the season?! He did this at least 3 times by now the last couple of years
Sudoku_in_the_Bathtub
Footballguy
If Wallace performs, he'll get paid.
Antonio Brown's heavily backloaded deal isn't going to impact Wallace. It's a very team friendly deal.
Antonio Brown's heavily backloaded deal isn't going to impact Wallace. It's a very team friendly deal.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
You can say that again
This is a really good posting. Wallace has not had a good 1st half this season and it is coming off a poor second half last season. Part of his problem is the Steelers have moved away from throwing downfield and have more of a possession type passing game. The other part of the problem appears to be a lack of focus as he had a ton of drops this season, several that were sure touchdowns.He is still an extremely talented WR and I would have bet the farm (if I had one) the Steelers would be slapping the franchise tag on Wallace at season's end. However after seeing the Todd Haley offense and how well it is working I think Sanders fits in better and will come at a much cheaper price tag.
But all of that can wait for the offseason. For now I am thrilled to have Wallace along side of Brown, Sanders, Miller and Cotchery as well as a running game that has been very impressive the past 4 weeks.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Wallace has been making big plays all seasons. 5 TDs so far, from an average of 39 yards, which is pretty good considering one of them was a 3-yard touchdown. Remember that 82-yarder vs. the Titans? I sure do. Again, Brown is a very good possession WR, but is not the game-breaking WR that Wallace is. Sorry, but when you are averaging 11.88 YPC on 42 catches and have only scored one touchdown, you are a possession receiver. No more, no less. Sure, he had a greater YPC last year, but it can be argued that Wallace playing at a higher level last year (which he did, for sure) cleared things out and opened things up for other receivers to produce.
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Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
AB > Wallace
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Despite all numbers to the contrary? And the eyeball test?
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Frenchy could be referring to NFL vs. FFL. I have no opinion NFL-wise. However in terms of FFL, the numbers are close but I'd rather have Wallace. He definitely has the game-breaking threat and the better yds/rec. And the TDs help
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I know there's more to a player than just the numbers, but I've watched enough to know that Brown is a very good WR, but Wallace is a game-breaker. Wallace is a guy other teams have to game plan to stop, similar to Victor Cruz and Calvin Johnson (although both of those guys are more complete WRs than Wallace).
I always say that the greatest WRs are the ones who score touchdowns. And I don't mean looking at a small sample of a few games, for those who want to point at Megatron not scoring that much so far this year, but looking at the overall picture.
Mike Wallace has 29 NFL TD receptions on 210 catches (that means he scores every 7 catches)
Antonio Brown has 3 NFL TD receptions on 127 catches (that means he scores every 43 catches)
That is a HUGE difference. HUGE. And it's not like WRs get 1-yard TD gifts like a lot of RBs do. That is why I place more value on TDs when it comes to the great ones vs. the very good ones. It's why I always say Wes Welker is very good, not great; he just doesn't score enough either.
I always say that the greatest WRs are the ones who score touchdowns. And I don't mean looking at a small sample of a few games, for those who want to point at Megatron not scoring that much so far this year, but looking at the overall picture.
Mike Wallace has 29 NFL TD receptions on 210 catches (that means he scores every 7 catches)
Antonio Brown has 3 NFL TD receptions on 127 catches (that means he scores every 43 catches)
That is a HUGE difference. HUGE. And it's not like WRs get 1-yard TD gifts like a lot of RBs do. That is why I place more value on TDs when it comes to the great ones vs. the very good ones. It's why I always say Wes Welker is very good, not great; he just doesn't score enough either.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
GR - it's apples and oranges, but yes, I do believe Brown is a better overall receiver. He runs better routes, he gets open more often, he's "niftier" with the ball, and he has better hands (Wallace is among the league's top 5 or 10 in drops, despite not having a huge volume of targets). Really, the only thing Wallace has over Brown is straight-line speed. Wallace's speed is so remarkable, though, that it counteracts a lot of his deficiencies.
If you're going to ask me which guy I'd rather have long-term if I need to choose one or the other, it's close. Really close, so much so that I can't really choose one at a blush. I want them both. But I can say I'd much rather have Brown at $7M per than Wallace at the $12-13M per he's purported to be holding out for.
If you're going to ask me which guy I'd rather have long-term if I need to choose one or the other, it's close. Really close, so much so that I can't really choose one at a blush. I want them both. But I can say I'd much rather have Brown at $7M per than Wallace at the $12-13M per he's purported to be holding out for.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
I don't think Wallace is worth Vincent Jackson money, but he forces defenses to do things that Brown doesn't and creates room for everyone else in a way Brown doesn't. How does that convert to contract $$? Somewhere between Brown's $7m and VJax's $11m per maybe?
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