Steelers fans check in (1 Viewer)

[cobalt_27]

Most teams seem on board with the appropriate caution to protect their player who have sustained a brain injury. But, why not the Steelers? Do they care about winning more than everyone else?

(for a review, this is from November 7th, and now Polamalu has another concussion (err, "concussion-like symptoms") and Tomlin and Polamalu are being cagey about it again.

Are fans of the team here ok with this? Sort of win at all costs, damn independent neurologists telling them whom to play and whom not to play. Bill Clinton would be proud of this nice work-around with this semantic distinction of concussion v. concussion-like Strategy seems to be working out for the team. Steeler fans, you all ok with this? Feel that brain injuries aren't that big of a deal?

 

[belljr]

So they let them stand on the sidelines we should be outraged?

 

[Fensalk]

Not a Steelers fan, but I think they've proven to do a terrible job of handling concussions over the years. Ben should have been sat for numerous games but they let him play anyway. He is now at risk for serious mental issues in his 40s. And for what? You have a backup QB, play him!

 

[cobalt_27]

So they let them stand on the sidelines we should be outraged?

That's not the issue, and you know it. I think the concern should revolve around the steelers skirting the independent neurological clearance. Either they don't appreciate the dangers of concussions or they don't care.

 

[treat88]

Has an independent neurologist consult been refused? Or have they in any way acted against recommendations based on such a consult?

Not intended to be leading questions. I really don't know the answer to them nor see an answer in the linked article.

 

[Dizzy]

Are fans of the team here ok with this?Steeler fans, you all ok with this?Feel that brain injuries aren't that big of a deal?

Yes.Yes.Not my call, nor my concern.

 

[cobalt_27]

Are fans of the team here ok with this?Steeler fans, you all ok with this?Feel that brain injuries aren't that big of a deal?

Yes.Yes.Not my call, nor my concern.

Interesting. It's not your call to decide if they should kick a FG or go for it on 4th down, either. Do those decisions and others not concern you?

 

[PhD]

So they let them stand on the sidelines we should be outraged?

That's not the issue, and you know it. I think the concern should revolve around the steelers skirting the independent neurological clearance. Either they don't appreciate the dangers of concussions or they don't care.

Cobalt - I think you're fishing here. First, it should be known that some of the national/world expets in concussion assessment and management live and research in Pittsburgh and have consulted with the Steelers well before there was heightended sensitivity on the issue. They know what they are doing. It sounds like you are up in arms because the ImPACT testing wasn't done right away. But I think you know that (a) the ImPACT test is not the only indication of concussive symptoms and (b) in the majority of cases concussive symptoms typically heal in the first week or so. You can do whatever tests you want to do in that time as long as the player doesn't return to play before he is relieved of concussive symptoms and subsequently gets the OK from team docs ie, neurologists, specialists (usually based on ImPACT test results). You don't need to take the ImPACT test right away - and in fact that is rarely the best time to do it. You just have to take the ImPACT test and do well enough on it to get the OK by the teams docs before you can return to play. Appropriately educated teams often wait until later in the week to test a player because (a) a team like the Steelers will often rest a player like Troy anyway and (b) they gauge the healing brain after they give it time to heal - but certainly before the next game. Keep in mind that they have been through this with Roethlisberger. Remember 2 years ago (?) Ben had consussive like symptoms, was subsequently held out of practice and then despite his assurances Tomlin made a Saturday announcement that Ben wouldn't start the next game (against the Ravens?) and they played Dixon instead. Ward was all riled up about it, and the fans were confused, but in relaity the team waited and rested Ben only to test him later and found that he had not recovered sufficently so they needed to rest him another week. Fast forward to Troy's case and it is the same thing. He wasn't allowed to return to the game (while his helmet was actually held by another player to protect him from himself), without return to play until he gets the OK by team docs.The fact that you and others are up in arms about the Steelers' use of the term "concussive symptoms" instead of "concussion" is silly and it should not at all be used to target the Steelers. It is not fraud. Look at the Eagles this year, when Vick was crushed in the back of the head, wobbled and sat for the game for what the team called "a neck injury". Ha! Also, how about last year's NFC championship game when Rogers got crushed by Peppers and looked (according to player reports) like he did following the concussion earlier in the year - but HE WASN'T EVEN TESTED ON THE SIDELINE!!!! At that time the team took a "don't say and we won't ask" mentality and he returned to play but looked OK, but noticeably worse after the hit. Of course two weeks later, with time for his brain to heal he was back on fire in the superbowl. Still, the Packers and the NFL failed that test big time in my book.

 

[cobalt_27]

So they let them stand on the sidelines we should be outraged?

That's not the issue, and you know it. I think the concern should revolve around the steelers skirting the independent neurological clearance. Either they don't appreciate the dangers of concussions or they don't care.

Cobalt - I think you're fishing here. First, it should be known that some of the national/world expets in concussion assessment and management live and research in Pittsburgh and have consulted with the Steelers well before there was heightended sensitivity on the issue. They know what they are doing. It sounds like you are up in arms because the ImPACT testing wasn't done right away. But I think you know that (a) the ImPACT test is not the only indication of concussive symptoms and (b) in the majority of cases concussive symptoms typically heal in the first week or so. You can do whatever tests you want to do in that time as long as the player doesn't return to play before he is relieved of concussive symptoms and subsequently gets the OK from team docs ie, neurologists, specialists (usually based on ImPACT test results). You don't need to take the ImPACT test right away - and in fact that is rarely the best time to do it. You just have to take the ImPACT test and do well enough on it to get the OK by the teams docs before you can return to play. Appropriately educated teams often wait until later in the week to test a player because (a) a team like the Steelers will often rest a player like Troy anyway and (b) they gauge the healing brain after they give it time to heal - but certainly before the next game. Keep in mind that they have been through this with Roethlisberger. Remember 2 years ago (?) Ben had consussive like symptoms, was subsequently held out of practice and then despite his assurances Tomlin made a Saturday announcement that Ben wouldn't start the next game (against the Ravens?) and they played Dixon instead. Ward was all riled up about it, and the fans were confused, but in relaity the team waited and rested Ben only to test him later and found that he had not recovered sufficently so they needed to rest him another week. Fast forward to Troy's case and it is the same thing. He wasn't allowed to return to the game (while his helmet was actually held by another player to protect him from himself), without return to play until he gets the OK by team docs.The fact that you and others are up in arms about the Steelers' use of the term "concussive symptoms" instead of "concussion" is silly and it should not at all be used to target the Steelers. It is not fraud. Look at the Eagles this year, when Vick was crushed in the back of the head, wobbled and sat for the game for what the team called "a neck injury". Ha! Also, how about last year's NFC championship game when Rogers got crushed by Peppers and looked (according to player reports) like he did following the concussion earlier in the year - but HE WASN'T EVEN TESTED ON THE SIDELINE!!!! At that time the team took a "don't say and we won't ask" mentality and he returned to play but looked OK, but noticeably worse after the hit. Of course two weeks later, with time for his brain to heal he was back on fire in the superbowl. Still, the Packers and the NFL failed that test big time in my book.

Not fishing at all. The Steelers have a history of this behavior, and particularly now with the new rules, appear as though they don't want to play by league rules. Specifically, they are refraining from diagnosing a concussion by referring to this as "concussion-like symptoms" to keep it in-house and avoid independent experts from coming in. That's not silly at all. The reason the NFL wants independent neurological consultation is to eliminate the concerns raised that teams and their paid medical personnel might be pressured to get players to return to play earlier than they should. While you are correct that symptoms usually resolve within about 10 days, this does not mean that the swelling and metabolic disturbance has resolved. In addition, every concussion is unique. Base rates are a blunt instrument, particularly as they pertain to concussions, in predicting recovery for each individual.The fact that other teams are not playing loose with diagnostic and pseudo-diagnostic lingo is a real positive step for the league and the players. The Steelers seem to be a step behind here. They are in a rich environment for neurology, but their approach has been far less than transparent than it should be and I think raises serious concerns about subverting league rules and jeopardizing player health for team gain.Don't even get me started on impact testing.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

UPMC Sports Medicine Concussion Program

The University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC) Sports Medicine Concussion Program, established in 2000, is the first of its kind and largest ongoing clinical service and research program that focuses on the diagnosis, evaluation and management of sports-related concussion in athletes of all levels.

The program’s internationally known team of clinicians and researchers are world leaders in studying the neurocognitive effects of sports-related concussion and pioneering the development of better methods of post-concussion evaluation to determine when it is safe for an athlete to return to sports. The team provides oversight and consultation to assist sports teams’ medical staff in making objective return-to-play decisions after the occurrence of sports-related concussion.

The program’s director is Michael (Micky) Collins, Ph.D.  In addition to working with professional athletes, Dr. Collins’ goal with the UPMC Sports Medicine Concussion Program is to help make a sophisticated and standardized concussion evaluation system available to high school-age and younger athletes worldwide. Dr. Collins was heavily involved in the development of the first computerized testing system to objectively evaluate the severity of concussions and more accurately determine when an athlete can safely return to contact play following a concussion. The system is called ImPACT™ (Immediate Post-Concussion and Cognitive Testing). Today ImPACT is the most widely used and most scientifically validated computerized concussion evaluation system, and its use worldwide among professional, college and high school sports teams continues to grow rapidly.

In addition to developing and providing first-of-its-kind clinical evaluation and management of sports concussions, UPMC Sports Concussion Program researchers have published in major medical journals numerous groundbreaking research study results concerning the effects of and recovery from sports-related concussions in high school and college athletes. These studies have had significant implications for what have been commonly used return-to-play guidelines because the findings suggest that the effects of even a mild concussion may be more serious than previously thought.

Other members of the UPMC Sports Medicine Concussion Program team are Joseph Maroon, M.D., professor of neurological surgery and Pittsburgh Steelers team neurosurgeon; and Charles (Chip) Burke, III, M.D., assistant professor of orthopaedic surgery, Pittsburgh Penguins team physician and director of the National Hockey League’s concussion program.

For more information visit the ImPACT web site at http://www.impacttest.com/

 

[PhD]

Not fishing at all. The Steelers have a history of this behavior, and particularly now with the new rules, appear as though they don't want to play by league rules. Specifically, they are refraining from diagnosing a concussion by referring to this as "concussion-like symptoms" to keep it in-house and avoid independent experts from coming in. That's not silly at all. The reason the NFL wants independent neurological consultation is to eliminate the concerns raised that teams and their paid medical personnel might be pressured to get players to return to play earlier than they should. While you are correct that symptoms usually resolve within about 10 days, this does not mean that the swelling and metabolic disturbance has resolved. In addition, every concussion is unique. Base rates are a blunt instrument, particularly as they pertain to concussions, in predicting recovery for each individual.

The fact that other teams are not playing loose with diagnostic and pseudo-diagnostic lingo is a real positive step for the league and the players. The Steelers seem to be a step behind here. They are in a rich environment for neurology, but their approach has been far less than transparent than it should be and I think raises serious concerns about subverting league rules and jeopardizing player health for team gain.

Don't even get me started on impact testing.

It sounds like we share the idea that ImPACT testing is not even close to the science that most of the community assumes. I would suggest that if application of league guidelines is different for "concussion-like symptoms" and "a concussion" then it's a pretty weak set of guidelines. The definition of "concussion" is general enough to include almost every player who experiences "concussion-like symptoms" after a hard hit.

 

[cobalt_27]

UPMC Sports Medicine Concussion Program

The University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC) Sports Medicine Concussion Program, established in 2000, is the first of its kind and largest ongoing clinical service and research program that focuses on the diagnosis, evaluation and management of sports-related concussion in athletes of all levels.

The program’s internationally known team of clinicians and researchers are world leaders in studying the neurocognitive effects of sports-related concussion and pioneering the development of better methods of post-concussion evaluation to determine when it is safe for an athlete to return to sports. The team provides oversight and consultation to assist sports teams’ medical staff in making objective return-to-play decisions after the occurrence of sports-related concussion.

The program’s director is Michael (Micky) Collins, Ph.D.  In addition to working with professional athletes, Dr. Collins’ goal with the UPMC Sports Medicine Concussion Program is to help make a sophisticated and standardized concussion evaluation system available to high school-age and younger athletes worldwide. Dr. Collins was heavily involved in the development of the first computerized testing system to objectively evaluate the severity of concussions and more accurately determine when an athlete can safely return to contact play following a concussion. The system is called ImPACT™ (Immediate Post-Concussion and Cognitive Testing). Today ImPACT is the most widely used and most scientifically validated computerized concussion evaluation system, and its use worldwide among professional, college and high school sports teams continues to grow rapidly.

In addition to developing and providing first-of-its-kind clinical evaluation and management of sports concussions, UPMC Sports Concussion Program researchers have published in major medical journals numerous groundbreaking research study results concerning the effects of and recovery from sports-related concussions in high school and college athletes. These studies have had significant implications for what have been commonly used return-to-play guidelines because the findings suggest that the effects of even a mild concussion may be more serious than previously thought.

Other members of the UPMC Sports Medicine Concussion Program team are Joseph Maroon, M.D., professor of neurological surgery and Pittsburgh Steelers team neurosurgeon; and Charles (Chip) Burke, III, M.D., assistant professor of orthopaedic surgery, Pittsburgh Penguins team physician and director of the National Hockey League’s concussion program.

For more information visit the ImPACT web site at http://www.impacttest.com/

What this post won't tell you is how this group has been a speed bag in the neuropsychology literature for not adequately assessing effort, it's emphasis on group administration, the abuse of "coaching" low baseline performances to mask declines following head injuries, among many other legitimate concerns. It's a screening tool...not a replacement for complete neuropsychological workups.Besides, I'm not sure how the strawman of impact testing has entered this discussion about the steelers shrugging off independent evaluations. Their players are getting concussed like every other team. Unlike the other teams, they are toying with the language to avoid independent evaluators (and might I add, world class, as well...Pittsburgh doesn't have a monopoly on neuroscience)

 

[cobalt_27]

It sounds like we share the idea that ImPACT testing is not even close to the science that most of the community assumes. I would suggest that if application of league guidelines is different for "concussion-like symptoms" and "a concussion" then it's a pretty weak set of guidelines. The definition of "concussion" is general enough to include almost every player who experiences "concussion-like symptoms" after a hard hit.

Exactly. And, you raise precisely the point: the league needs to intervene on the steelers and say, no...you can't get away with that. They have to clean this up, or else other teams are going to pick up on this and diagnose their players with "concussion-like symptoms" when it suits their needs.It's shady, but ultimately the NFL's responsibility to correct this soon.

 

[Steelers4Life]

As for whether it's right or wrong, I don't really care much. If the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there's nothing a Steelers doctor is going to be able to do about that. They're grown men getting paid, and they're ultimately responsible for the decisions they make. As a fan, if they can play, I want them to play, but it's sure as hell not up to me on whether or not they do.

I just find it laughable that you'd say the Steelers have a long history of this kind of thing when the Steelers lost a close game on the road against the Ravens in 2009 because they benched Roethlisberger the week after he suffered a concussion, despite Ben's efforts to convince everyone he was OK. If you want to talk about an isolated incident with Polamalu, fine, but don't make it sound like it's more than that.

 

[cobalt_27]

As for whether it's right or wrong, I don't really care much. If the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there's nothing a Steelers doctor is going to be able to do about that. They're grown men getting paid, and they're ultimately responsible for the decisions they make. As a fan, if they can play, I want them to play, but it's sure as hell not up to me on whether or not they do.

I just find it laughable that you'd say the Steelers have a long history of this kind of thing when the Steelers lost a close game on the road against the Ravens in 2009 because they benched Roethlisberger the week after he suffered a concussion, despite Ben's efforts to convince everyone he was OK. If you want to talk about an isolated incident with Polamalu, fine, but don't make it sound like it's more than that.

And don't forget Hines Ward. "Injured neck" they called it. Clearly concussed. But, it was his neck. Yeah, and with Ben, I'm unimpressed. The fact that Tomlin held him out all of 7 days following a concussion, that should just be the rule, not the exception. And, the fact that the organization was so cagey about it...Tomlin referring to it as a "concussion-oriented thing" (now referred to as "concussion-like symptoms)...it's a pattern unique to Tomlin and the Steelers. They have a history of doing this sort of thing. They clearly play around with the diagnosis, avoid calling it for what it is,and the league needs to step in and put a stop to it. It's too serious an issue to take so flippantly, like the Steelers' organization has.

Problem is, you're assumption that if the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there is something else the Steelers doctors can do: They can say the player has "concussion-like symptoms" and not be committing malpractice because...that's exactly what the player has. But, to avoid making the diagnosis, it benefits the Steelers tremendously because they can be the ones to decide--not the league--when the player returns to play. Independent neurologists don't care if a guy can't be on the field for a critical division matchup or a playoff game, but the player/coach/organization certainly does and can exact pressure on team physicians to give clearance. This isn't fantasyland fiction stuff either. Happens all..the..time.

 

[Steelers4Life]

As for whether it's right or wrong, I don't really care much. If the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there's nothing a Steelers doctor is going to be able to do about that. They're grown men getting paid, and they're ultimately responsible for the decisions they make. As a fan, if they can play, I want them to play, but it's sure as hell not up to me on whether or not they do. I just find it laughable that you'd say the Steelers have a long history of this kind of thing when the Steelers lost a close game on the road against the Ravens in 2009 because they benched Roethlisberger the week after he suffered a concussion, despite Ben's efforts to convince everyone he was OK. If you want to talk about an isolated incident with Polamalu, fine, but don't make it sound like it's more than that.

And don't forget Hines Ward. "Injured neck." Clearly concussed. But, it was his neck. Yeah, and with Ben, I'm unimpressed. The fact that Tomlin held him out all of 7 days following a concussion, that should just be the rule, not the exception. And, the fact that the organization was so cagey about it...Tomlin referring to it as a "concussion-oriented thing" (now referred to as "concussion-like symptoms)...it's a pattern unique to Tomlin and the Steelers. They have a history of doing this sort of thing. They clearly play around with the diagnosis, avoid calling it for what it is,and the league needs to step in and put a stop to it. It's too serious an issue to take so flippantly, like the Steelers' organization has.

The fact that the Steelers held Ben out in 2009 wasn't the exception. He was held out because of a concussion, he was listed on the injury report as having had a concussion. He wasn't ready to play, so the Steelers held him out. Just like they did with Ward earlier this year, regardless of what they called it during the game.Aside from this issue with Polamalu, I'm not sure where this history comes from, because other teams have brought players back after a concussion in a week many, many times. I suppose those organizations are taking things flippantly too, right? Whatever the language is, the Steelers aren't treating their players any differently than anyone else.If the NFL injury report is such a sacred thing, how long till they step in and prevent Bellicheck from listing 2/3 of his roster as questionable? The Steelers don't send players out there who shouldn't be out there, and they certainly don't have a history of doing it. If you don't like the terminology they use, I suggest you write a letter to the front office.

 

[cobalt_27]

As for whether it's right or wrong, I don't really care much. If the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there's nothing a Steelers doctor is going to be able to do about that. They're grown men getting paid, and they're ultimately responsible for the decisions they make. As a fan, if they can play, I want them to play, but it's sure as hell not up to me on whether or not they do. I just find it laughable that you'd say the Steelers have a long history of this kind of thing when the Steelers lost a close game on the road against the Ravens in 2009 because they benched Roethlisberger the week after he suffered a concussion, despite Ben's efforts to convince everyone he was OK. If you want to talk about an isolated incident with Polamalu, fine, but don't make it sound like it's more than that.

And don't forget Hines Ward. "Injured neck." Clearly concussed. But, it was his neck. Yeah, and with Ben, I'm unimpressed. The fact that Tomlin held him out all of 7 days following a concussion, that should just be the rule, not the exception. And, the fact that the organization was so cagey about it...Tomlin referring to it as a "concussion-oriented thing" (now referred to as "concussion-like symptoms)...it's a pattern unique to Tomlin and the Steelers. They have a history of doing this sort of thing. They clearly play around with the diagnosis, avoid calling it for what it is,and the league needs to step in and put a stop to it. It's too serious an issue to take so flippantly, like the Steelers' organization has.

The fact that the Steelers held Ben out in 2009 wasn't the exception. He was held out because of a concussion, he was listed on the injury report as having had a concussion. He wasn't ready to play, so the Steelers held him out. Just like they did with Ward earlier this year, regardless of what they called it during the game.Aside from this issue with Polamalu, I'm not sure where this history comes from, because other teams have brought players back after a concussion in a week many, many times. I suppose those organizations are taking things flippantly too, right? Whatever the language is, the Steelers aren't treating their players any differently than anyone else.If the NFL injury report is such a sacred thing, how long till they step in and prevent Bellicheck from listing 2/3 of his roster as questionable? The Steelers don't send players out there who shouldn't be out there, and they certainly don't have a history of doing it. If you don't like the terminology they use, I suggest you write a letter to the front office.

You understand the language is strategic, right? It's not an accident that they are the only ones not calling it a concussion.

 

[Steelers4Life]

As for whether it's right or wrong, I don't really care much. If the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there's nothing a Steelers doctor is going to be able to do about that. They're grown men getting paid, and they're ultimately responsible for the decisions they make. As a fan, if they can play, I want them to play, but it's sure as hell not up to me on whether or not they do.

I just find it laughable that you'd say the Steelers have a long history of this kind of thing when the Steelers lost a close game on the road against the Ravens in 2009 because they benched Roethlisberger the week after he suffered a concussion, despite Ben's efforts to convince everyone he was OK. If you want to talk about an isolated incident with Polamalu, fine, but don't make it sound like it's more than that.

And don't forget Hines Ward. "Injured neck." Clearly concussed. But, it was his neck. Yeah, and with Ben, I'm unimpressed. The fact that Tomlin held him out all of 7 days following a concussion, that should just be the rule, not the exception. And, the fact that the organization was so cagey about it...Tomlin referring to it as a "concussion-oriented thing" (now referred to as "concussion-like symptoms)...it's a pattern unique to Tomlin and the Steelers. They have a history of doing this sort of thing. They clearly play around with the diagnosis, avoid calling it for what it is,and the league needs to step in and put a stop to it. It's too serious an issue to take so flippantly, like the Steelers' organization has.

The fact that the Steelers held Ben out in 2009 wasn't the exception. He was held out because of a concussion, he was listed on the injury report as having had a concussion. He wasn't ready to play, so the Steelers held him out. Just like they did with Ward earlier this year, regardless of what they called it during the game.Aside from this issue with Polamalu, I'm not sure where this history comes from, because other teams have brought players back after a concussion in a week many, many times. I suppose those organizations are taking things flippantly too, right? Whatever the language is, the Steelers aren't treating their players any differently than anyone else.

If the NFL injury report is such a sacred thing, how long till they step in and prevent Bellicheck from listing 2/3 of his roster as questionable? The Steelers don't send players out there who shouldn't be out there, and they certainly don't have a history of doing it. If you don't like the terminology they use, I suggest you write a letter to the front office.

You understand the language is strategic, right? It's not an accident that they are the only ones not calling it a concussion.

I understand completely. I also understand that despite the language, the Steelers don't send concussed players out onto the field before they're ready. To portray their practices otherwise is just misinformed. This is taken from the Wikipedia page for Ted Johnson, who retired due to repeated concussions. It's a safe assumption that there's pressure to come back from concussions on EVERY team in the NFL.

"On February 1, 2007 Johnson made news when he told the New York Times that he suffers from amphetamine addiction, depression and headaches related to post-concussion syndrome and Second Impact Syndrome.[1] He placed some blame on his former coach Bill Belichick for pressuring him to participate in full contact practice drills three days after suffering a concussion in an exhibition game against the New York Giants in August 2002. Johnson reported that during the drills, he suffered a second concussion, and he argues that Belichick asked him to participate against the advice of the team's head trainer. Belichick denies these allegations. Some thought Johnson's revelation was suspect based upon a December 20, 2006 column in the Boston Herald where columnist Michael Felger said Johnson told him that he would have considered playing for the Patriots in 2006 had they asked (in the wake of a season-ending injury to linebacker Junior Seau).[2] However in a February 14, 2007 interview on the Dennis and Callahan Show on WEEI, Johnson claimed he wasn't being serious when he said that, and in fact stated he said it sarcastically."

 

[cobalt_27]

As for whether it's right or wrong, I don't really care much. If the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there's nothing a Steelers doctor is going to be able to do about that. They're grown men getting paid, and they're ultimately responsible for the decisions they make. As a fan, if they can play, I want them to play, but it's sure as hell not up to me on whether or not they do.

I just find it laughable that you'd say the Steelers have a long history of this kind of thing when the Steelers lost a close game on the road against the Ravens in 2009 because they benched Roethlisberger the week after he suffered a concussion, despite Ben's efforts to convince everyone he was OK. If you want to talk about an isolated incident with Polamalu, fine, but don't make it sound like it's more than that.

And don't forget Hines Ward. "Injured neck." Clearly concussed. But, it was his neck. Yeah, and with Ben, I'm unimpressed. The fact that Tomlin held him out all of 7 days following a concussion, that should just be the rule, not the exception. And, the fact that the organization was so cagey about it...Tomlin referring to it as a "concussion-oriented thing" (now referred to as "concussion-like symptoms)...it's a pattern unique to Tomlin and the Steelers. They have a history of doing this sort of thing. They clearly play around with the diagnosis, avoid calling it for what it is,and the league needs to step in and put a stop to it. It's too serious an issue to take so flippantly, like the Steelers' organization has.

The fact that the Steelers held Ben out in 2009 wasn't the exception. He was held out because of a concussion, he was listed on the injury report as having had a concussion. He wasn't ready to play, so the Steelers held him out. Just like they did with Ward earlier this year, regardless of what they called it during the game.Aside from this issue with Polamalu, I'm not sure where this history comes from, because other teams have brought players back after a concussion in a week many, many times. I suppose those organizations are taking things flippantly too, right? Whatever the language is, the Steelers aren't treating their players any differently than anyone else.

If the NFL injury report is such a sacred thing, how long till they step in and prevent Bellicheck from listing 2/3 of his roster as questionable? The Steelers don't send players out there who shouldn't be out there, and they certainly don't have a history of doing it. If you don't like the terminology they use, I suggest you write a letter to the front office.

You understand the language is strategic, right? It's not an accident that they are the only ones not calling it a concussion.

I understand completely. I also understand that despite the language, the Steelers don't send concussed players out onto the field before they're ready. To portray their practices otherwise is just misinformed. This is taken from the Wikipedia page for Ted Johnson, who retired due to repeated concussions. It's a safe assumption that there's pressure to come back from concussions on EVERY team in the NFL.

"On February 1, 2007 Johnson made news when he told the New York Times that he suffers from amphetamine addiction, depression and headaches related to post-concussion syndrome and Second Impact Syndrome.[1] He placed some blame on his former coach Bill Belichick for pressuring him to participate in full contact practice drills three days after suffering a concussion in an exhibition game against the New York Giants in August 2002. Johnson reported that during the drills, he suffered a second concussion, and he argues that Belichick asked him to participate against the advice of the team's head trainer. Belichick denies these allegations. Some thought Johnson's revelation was suspect based upon a December 20, 2006 column in the Boston Herald where columnist Michael Felger said Johnson told him that he would have considered playing for the Patriots in 2006 had they asked (in the wake of a season-ending injury to linebacker Junior Seau).[2] However in a February 14, 2007 interview on the Dennis and Callahan Show on WEEI, Johnson claimed he wasn't being serious when he said that, and in fact stated he said it sarcastically."

I absolutely embrace the concept that coaches/teams send players out before they are ready, especially with concussions. I do no have the same confidence that you have in your Steelers they are somehow holier than the other teams either and that they would never send out their concussed players before they are ready. You don't know if that is true or not any more or less than I do.This is precisely why the league mandates independent neurological evaluations. And, this is also why you should care about how your team is toying with the language and why the NFL needs to step in and stop it.

 

[H8fulHuck]

I support Tom Brady being listed with a right shoulder injury. More coaches should take the reporting of injuries seriously like the Patriots do.

 

[cobalt_27]

I support Tom Brady being listed with a right shoulder injury. More coaches should take the reporting of injuries seriously like the Patriots do.

On a positive note, right shoulder injuries, unlike repeated concussions, are not associated with dementia or encephalopahy. This should be good news to Tom.

 

[PhD]

As for whether it's right or wrong, I don't really care much. If the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there's nothing a Steelers doctor is going to be able to do about that. They're grown men getting paid, and they're ultimately responsible for the decisions they make. As a fan, if they can play, I want them to play, but it's sure as hell not up to me on whether or not they do.

I just find it laughable that you'd say the Steelers have a long history of this kind of thing when the Steelers lost a close game on the road against the Ravens in 2009 because they benched Roethlisberger the week after he suffered a concussion, despite Ben's efforts to convince everyone he was OK. If you want to talk about an isolated incident with Polamalu, fine, but don't make it sound like it's more than that.

And don't forget Hines Ward. "Injured neck" they called it. Clearly concussed. But, it was his neck. Yeah, and with Ben, I'm unimpressed. The fact that Tomlin held him out all of 7 days following a concussion, that should just be the rule, not the exception. And, the fact that the organization was so cagey about it...Tomlin referring to it as a "concussion-oriented thing" (now referred to as "concussion-like symptoms)...it's a pattern unique to Tomlin and the Steelers. They have a history of doing this sort of thing. They clearly play around with the diagnosis, avoid calling it for what it is,and the league needs to step in and put a stop to it. It's too serious an issue to take so flippantly, like the Steelers' organization has.

Problem is, you're assumption that if the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there is something else the Steelers doctors can do: They can say the player has "concussion-like symptoms" and not be committing malpractice because...that's exactly what the player has. But, to avoid making the diagnosis, it benefits the Steelers tremendously because they can be the ones to decide--not the league--when the player returns to play. Independent neurologists don't care if a guy can't be on the field for a critical division matchup or a playoff game, but the player/coach/organization certainly does and can exact pressure on team physicians to give clearance. This isn't fantasyland fiction stuff either. Happens all..the..time.

This might temper your witch-hunt a bit:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09328/1015831-66.stm

 

[cobalt_27]

As for whether it's right or wrong, I don't really care much. If the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there's nothing a Steelers doctor is going to be able to do about that. They're grown men getting paid, and they're ultimately responsible for the decisions they make. As a fan, if they can play, I want them to play, but it's sure as hell not up to me on whether or not they do.

I just find it laughable that you'd say the Steelers have a long history of this kind of thing when the Steelers lost a close game on the road against the Ravens in 2009 because they benched Roethlisberger the week after he suffered a concussion, despite Ben's efforts to convince everyone he was OK. If you want to talk about an isolated incident with Polamalu, fine, but don't make it sound like it's more than that.

And don't forget Hines Ward. "Injured neck" they called it. Clearly concussed. But, it was his neck. Yeah, and with Ben, I'm unimpressed. The fact that Tomlin held him out all of 7 days following a concussion, that should just be the rule, not the exception. And, the fact that the organization was so cagey about it...Tomlin referring to it as a "concussion-oriented thing" (now referred to as "concussion-like symptoms)...it's a pattern unique to Tomlin and the Steelers. They have a history of doing this sort of thing. They clearly play around with the diagnosis, avoid calling it for what it is,and the league needs to step in and put a stop to it. It's too serious an issue to take so flippantly, like the Steelers' organization has.

Problem is, you're assumption that if the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there is something else the Steelers doctors can do: They can say the player has "concussion-like symptoms" and not be committing malpractice because...that's exactly what the player has. But, to avoid making the diagnosis, it benefits the Steelers tremendously because they can be the ones to decide--not the league--when the player returns to play. Independent neurologists don't care if a guy can't be on the field for a critical division matchup or a playoff game, but the player/coach/organization certainly does and can exact pressure on team physicians to give clearance. This isn't fantasyland fiction stuff either. Happens all..the..time.

This might temper your witch-hunt a bit:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09328/1015831-66.stm

It's not a witch hunt. I'd just like them to be straight about this stuff, and they haven't been. Plus, I don't know if this 2009 information is relevant to the new league rules instituted this year.

 

[Dizzy]

Interesting. It's not your call to decide if they should kick a FG or go for it on 4th down, either. Do those decisions and others not concern you?

Correct.

 

[Steelers4Life]

As for whether it's right or wrong, I don't really care much. If the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there's nothing a Steelers doctor is going to be able to do about that. They're grown men getting paid, and they're ultimately responsible for the decisions they make. As a fan, if they can play, I want them to play, but it's sure as hell not up to me on whether or not they do.

I just find it laughable that you'd say the Steelers have a long history of this kind of thing when the Steelers lost a close game on the road against the Ravens in 2009 because they benched Roethlisberger the week after he suffered a concussion, despite Ben's efforts to convince everyone he was OK. If you want to talk about an isolated incident with Polamalu, fine, but don't make it sound like it's more than that.

And don't forget Hines Ward. "Injured neck" they called it. Clearly concussed. But, it was his neck. Yeah, and with Ben, I'm unimpressed. The fact that Tomlin held him out all of 7 days following a concussion, that should just be the rule, not the exception. And, the fact that the organization was so cagey about it...Tomlin referring to it as a "concussion-oriented thing" (now referred to as "concussion-like symptoms)...it's a pattern unique to Tomlin and the Steelers. They have a history of doing this sort of thing. They clearly play around with the diagnosis, avoid calling it for what it is,and the league needs to step in and put a stop to it. It's too serious an issue to take so flippantly, like the Steelers' organization has.

Problem is, you're assumption that if the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there is something else the Steelers doctors can do: They can say the player has "concussion-like symptoms" and not be committing malpractice because...that's exactly what the player has. But, to avoid making the diagnosis, it benefits the Steelers tremendously because they can be the ones to decide--not the league--when the player returns to play. Independent neurologists don't care if a guy can't be on the field for a critical division matchup or a playoff game, but the player/coach/organization certainly does and can exact pressure on team physicians to give clearance. This isn't fantasyland fiction stuff either. Happens all..the..time.

This might temper your witch-hunt a bit:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09328/1015831-66.stm

It's not a witch hunt. I'd just like them to be straight about this stuff, and they haven't been. Plus, I don't know if this 2009 information is relevant to the new league rules instituted this year.

Yeah, nevermind the fact that the two primary Steelers' doctors have already been approved by the players' union, one of whom is the Director of UPMC's sports concussion program. I'm sure the union and the NFL are both in on the conspiracy, too. Anything to help the Steelers, right?I'm sure they put their medical licenses and reputations at a world-renowned facility on the line for the Steelers.

 

[PhD]

As for whether it's right or wrong, I don't really care much. If the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there's nothing a Steelers doctor is going to be able to do about that. They're grown men getting paid, and they're ultimately responsible for the decisions they make. As a fan, if they can play, I want them to play, but it's sure as hell not up to me on whether or not they do.

I just find it laughable that you'd say the Steelers have a long history of this kind of thing when the Steelers lost a close game on the road against the Ravens in 2009 because they benched Roethlisberger the week after he suffered a concussion, despite Ben's efforts to convince everyone he was OK. If you want to talk about an isolated incident with Polamalu, fine, but don't make it sound like it's more than that.

And don't forget Hines Ward. "Injured neck" they called it. Clearly concussed. But, it was his neck. Yeah, and with Ben, I'm unimpressed. The fact that Tomlin held him out all of 7 days following a concussion, that should just be the rule, not the exception. And, the fact that the organization was so cagey about it...Tomlin referring to it as a "concussion-oriented thing" (now referred to as "concussion-like symptoms)...it's a pattern unique to Tomlin and the Steelers. They have a history of doing this sort of thing. They clearly play around with the diagnosis, avoid calling it for what it is,and the league needs to step in and put a stop to it. It's too serious an issue to take so flippantly, like the Steelers' organization has.

Problem is, you're assumption that if the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there is something else the Steelers doctors can do: They can say the player has "concussion-like symptoms" and not be committing malpractice because...that's exactly what the player has. But, to avoid making the diagnosis, it benefits the Steelers tremendously because they can be the ones to decide--not the league--when the player returns to play. Independent neurologists don't care if a guy can't be on the field for a critical division matchup or a playoff game, but the player/coach/organization certainly does and can exact pressure on team physicians to give clearance. This isn't fantasyland fiction stuff either. Happens all..the..time.

This might temper your witch-hunt a bit:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09328/1015831-66.stm

It's not a witch hunt. I'd just like them to be straight about this stuff, and they haven't been. Plus, I don't know if this 2009 information is relevant to the new league rules instituted this year.

Just an FYI then:The 2009 information pertained to the guidelines that were put into place for the 2010 season: http://thesportdigest.com/archive/article/nfl-issues-stricter-guidelines-returning-play-following-concussion

"Once removed for the duration of a practice or game, the player should not be considered for return-to-football activities until he is fully asymptomatic, both at rest and after exertion, has a normal neurological examination, normal neuropsychological testing, and has been cleared to return by both team physicians and an independent neurological consultant."

Meanwhile -

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2011-03-29-concussions-protocol_N.htm

The revision for the 2011 season did not change anything per se, but offered a standard assessment that should be used by every team on the sideline for any player who sustains a possible concussion. This is the sideline test by the team doctors - it does not change anything about the need for independent neurological consultants.

Therefore, the information in the earlier posts stands. The Steelers' team doctor (Maroon) is one of the leading neurosurgeons researching concussions and if necessary Dr. Lovell, (who like the test or not, was one of the lead authors of the ImPACT test and a recognized expert on concussion assessment and management) is the accepted independent neurological consultant.

 

[cobalt_27]

As for whether it's right or wrong, I don't really care much. If the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there's nothing a Steelers doctor is going to be able to do about that. They're grown men getting paid, and they're ultimately responsible for the decisions they make. As a fan, if they can play, I want them to play, but it's sure as hell not up to me on whether or not they do.

I just find it laughable that you'd say the Steelers have a long history of this kind of thing when the Steelers lost a close game on the road against the Ravens in 2009 because they benched Roethlisberger the week after he suffered a concussion, despite Ben's efforts to convince everyone he was OK. If you want to talk about an isolated incident with Polamalu, fine, but don't make it sound like it's more than that.

And don't forget Hines Ward. "Injured neck" they called it. Clearly concussed. But, it was his neck. Yeah, and with Ben, I'm unimpressed. The fact that Tomlin held him out all of 7 days following a concussion, that should just be the rule, not the exception. And, the fact that the organization was so cagey about it...Tomlin referring to it as a "concussion-oriented thing" (now referred to as "concussion-like symptoms)...it's a pattern unique to Tomlin and the Steelers. They have a history of doing this sort of thing. They clearly play around with the diagnosis, avoid calling it for what it is,and the league needs to step in and put a stop to it. It's too serious an issue to take so flippantly, like the Steelers' organization has.

Problem is, you're assumption that if the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there is something else the Steelers doctors can do: They can say the player has "concussion-like symptoms" and not be committing malpractice because...that's exactly what the player has. But, to avoid making the diagnosis, it benefits the Steelers tremendously because they can be the ones to decide--not the league--when the player returns to play. Independent neurologists don't care if a guy can't be on the field for a critical division matchup or a playoff game, but the player/coach/organization certainly does and can exact pressure on team physicians to give clearance. This isn't fantasyland fiction stuff either. Happens all..the..time.

This might temper your witch-hunt a bit:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09328/1015831-66.stm

It's not a witch hunt. I'd just like them to be straight about this stuff, and they haven't been. Plus, I don't know if this 2009 information is relevant to the new league rules instituted this year.

Yeah, nevermind the fact that the two primary Steelers' doctors have already been approved by the players' union, one of whom is the Director of UPMC's sports concussion program. I'm sure the union and the NFL are both in on the conspiracy, too. Anything to help the Steelers, right?I'm sure they put their medical licenses and reputations at a world-renowned facility on the line for the Steelers.

Gaining approval as a specialist is not that big of a deal and is irrelevant to this discussion. I know plenty of my own colleagues who are the independent neuropsychologists for several NFL teams, and they are top notch folks, coming from top notch training and institutions. They'll tell you the exact same thing. There needs to be transparency and, in the issue of a life-threatening syndrome, such as concussions, where the team goals and the doctors goals are at odds, the only sensible conclusion is to create a system of independent evaluators who are not paid by the teams to conduct objective and impartial evaluations. Pittsburgh, I believe, is subject to this as much as all the other teams in the league...this is not 2009.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

Love these kinds of threads! A few anonymous jackasses on the FBG boards are more educated about brain injuries than a renowned MD.

 

[PhD]

As for whether it's right or wrong, I don't really care much. If the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there's nothing a Steelers doctor is going to be able to do about that. They're grown men getting paid, and they're ultimately responsible for the decisions they make. As a fan, if they can play, I want them to play, but it's sure as hell not up to me on whether or not they do.

I just find it laughable that you'd say the Steelers have a long history of this kind of thing when the Steelers lost a close game on the road against the Ravens in 2009 because they benched Roethlisberger the week after he suffered a concussion, despite Ben's efforts to convince everyone he was OK. If you want to talk about an isolated incident with Polamalu, fine, but don't make it sound like it's more than that.

And don't forget Hines Ward. "Injured neck" they called it. Clearly concussed. But, it was his neck. Yeah, and with Ben, I'm unimpressed. The fact that Tomlin held him out all of 7 days following a concussion, that should just be the rule, not the exception. And, the fact that the organization was so cagey about it...Tomlin referring to it as a "concussion-oriented thing" (now referred to as "concussion-like symptoms)...it's a pattern unique to Tomlin and the Steelers. They have a history of doing this sort of thing. They clearly play around with the diagnosis, avoid calling it for what it is,and the league needs to step in and put a stop to it. It's too serious an issue to take so flippantly, like the Steelers' organization has.

Problem is, you're assumption that if the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there is something else the Steelers doctors can do: They can say the player has "concussion-like symptoms" and not be committing malpractice because...that's exactly what the player has. But, to avoid making the diagnosis, it benefits the Steelers tremendously because they can be the ones to decide--not the league--when the player returns to play. Independent neurologists don't care if a guy can't be on the field for a critical division matchup or a playoff game, but the player/coach/organization certainly does and can exact pressure on team physicians to give clearance. This isn't fantasyland fiction stuff either. Happens all..the..time.

This might temper your witch-hunt a bit:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09328/1015831-66.stm

It's not a witch hunt. I'd just like them to be straight about this stuff, and they haven't been. Plus, I don't know if this 2009 information is relevant to the new league rules instituted this year.

Yeah, nevermind the fact that the two primary Steelers' doctors have already been approved by the players' union, one of whom is the Director of UPMC's sports concussion program. I'm sure the union and the NFL are both in on the conspiracy, too. Anything to help the Steelers, right?I'm sure they put their medical licenses and reputations at a world-renowned facility on the line for the Steelers.

Gaining approval as a specialist is not that big of a deal and is irrelevant to this discussion. I know plenty of my own colleagues who are the independent neuropsychologists for several NFL teams, and they are top notch folks, coming from top notch training and institutions. They'll tell you the exact same thing. There needs to be transparency and, in the issue of a life-threatening syndrome, such as concussions, where the team goals and the doctors goals are at odds, the only sensible conclusion is to create a system of independent evaluators who are not paid by the teams to conduct objective and impartial evaluations. Pittsburgh, I believe, is subject to this as much as all the other teams in the league...this is not 2009.

Cobalt, your point is getting thinner and thinner. First, although you are correct in saying that gaining approval as a specialist is not that big of a deal - gaining approval as an expert is. There is a BIG difference between "specialist" and "expert" If someone needs arm surgery they don't go to a specialist in a hospital when they can go to Dr. Andrews (Tommy John expert). If an NFL player needs a concussion specialist he might go to one of your friends, but if he wanted an "expert" he would go to Lovell. Lovell is NOT on the Steelers payroll. He is an independent consultant, an expert in the field who writes volumes of peer reviewed articles and books. Maybe more important to your point is that he is available to all NFL teams and happens to work in the city of Pittsburgh. Why would the Steelers have their players see anyone else? The previous article from 2009 is completely relevant to this. Like it or not, the Steelers have been consulting with Lovell for YEARS, oh, and by the way, so have many players/teams from the NFL and NHL (see Aikman, Steve Young, Eric Lindros, Crosby, etc.). I find it surprising that you would doubt the credibility of this kind of clinician or the ethics of his work. Your arguement for specilists being biased might work for some specialists, but it doesn't work in this case. I think it's time to move on...

 

[cobalt_27]

Love these kinds of threads! A few anonymous jackasses on the FBG boards are more educated about brain injuries than a renowned MD.

Feel free to lay off the name-calling. You've been here long enough to know better. I never attacked you.Some of these anonymous jackasses of whom you speak might hold Ph.D.s in neuropsychology, work in academic medical settings, and specialize in assessment of head injury, mild TBI, concussion, etc. Perhaps not any more or less educated, but still somewhat versed on the issue(s).And, trust me, just because someone earned a Ph.D. or M.D. doesn't mean he/she can't be open to criticism. The neurosurgeon and psychologist who authored impact are certainly well-regarded in their professions. On the other hand, they are also seen by many in our field as opportunists who have sacrificed scientific and research integrity to make a lot of money on their impact screening protocols. I don't feel this way. I administered impact testing to college athletes about 7-8 years ago; I know its strengths, and I feel I have a pretty good handle on its weaknesses. It's no replacement for traditional neuropsychological workups, but as a quick screening measure, it's fine.Still, it does not take a professional in the field to comment on the real issue at hand. The Steelers are engaging in what appears to be a concerted and deliberate effort to avoid the use of the concussion diagnosis to keep the return-to-play decisions in-house and not subject to an independent medical expert. It is dishonest and clearly violating the spirit of the new rules established this year by the NFL, that were done to protect players (both from themselves and their teams).

 

[cobalt_27]

As for whether it's right or wrong, I don't really care much. If the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there's nothing a Steelers doctor is going to be able to do about that. They're grown men getting paid, and they're ultimately responsible for the decisions they make. As a fan, if they can play, I want them to play, but it's sure as hell not up to me on whether or not they do.

I just find it laughable that you'd say the Steelers have a long history of this kind of thing when the Steelers lost a close game on the road against the Ravens in 2009 because they benched Roethlisberger the week after he suffered a concussion, despite Ben's efforts to convince everyone he was OK. If you want to talk about an isolated incident with Polamalu, fine, but don't make it sound like it's more than that.

And don't forget Hines Ward. "Injured neck" they called it. Clearly concussed. But, it was his neck. Yeah, and with Ben, I'm unimpressed. The fact that Tomlin held him out all of 7 days following a concussion, that should just be the rule, not the exception. And, the fact that the organization was so cagey about it...Tomlin referring to it as a "concussion-oriented thing" (now referred to as "concussion-like symptoms)...it's a pattern unique to Tomlin and the Steelers. They have a history of doing this sort of thing. They clearly play around with the diagnosis, avoid calling it for what it is,and the league needs to step in and put a stop to it. It's too serious an issue to take so flippantly, like the Steelers' organization has.

Problem is, you're assumption that if the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there is something else the Steelers doctors can do: They can say the player has "concussion-like symptoms" and not be committing malpractice because...that's exactly what the player has. But, to avoid making the diagnosis, it benefits the Steelers tremendously because they can be the ones to decide--not the league--when the player returns to play. Independent neurologists don't care if a guy can't be on the field for a critical division matchup or a playoff game, but the player/coach/organization certainly does and can exact pressure on team physicians to give clearance. This isn't fantasyland fiction stuff either. Happens all..the..time.

This might temper your witch-hunt a bit:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09328/1015831-66.stm

It's not a witch hunt. I'd just like them to be straight about this stuff, and they haven't been. Plus, I don't know if this 2009 information is relevant to the new league rules instituted this year.

Yeah, nevermind the fact that the two primary Steelers' doctors have already been approved by the players' union, one of whom is the Director of UPMC's sports concussion program. I'm sure the union and the NFL are both in on the conspiracy, too. Anything to help the Steelers, right?I'm sure they put their medical licenses and reputations at a world-renowned facility on the line for the Steelers.

Gaining approval as a specialist is not that big of a deal and is irrelevant to this discussion. I know plenty of my own colleagues who are the independent neuropsychologists for several NFL teams, and they are top notch folks, coming from top notch training and institutions. They'll tell you the exact same thing. There needs to be transparency and, in the issue of a life-threatening syndrome, such as concussions, where the team goals and the doctors goals are at odds, the only sensible conclusion is to create a system of independent evaluators who are not paid by the teams to conduct objective and impartial evaluations. Pittsburgh, I believe, is subject to this as much as all the other teams in the league...this is not 2009.

Cobalt, your point is getting thinner and thinner. First, although you are correct in saying that gaining approval as a specialist is not that big of a deal - gaining approval as an expert is. There is a BIG difference between "specialist" and "expert" If someone needs arm surgery they don't go to a specialist in a hospital when they can go to Dr. Andrews (Tommy John expert). If an NFL player needs a concussion specialist he might go to one of your friends, but if he wanted an "expert" he would go to Lovell. Lovell is NOT on the Steelers payroll. He is an independent consultant, an expert in the field who writes volumes of peer reviewed articles and books. Maybe more important to your point is that he is available to all NFL teams and happens to work in the city of Pittsburgh. Why would the Steelers have their players see anyone else? The previous article from 2009 is completely relevant to this. Like it or not, the Steelers have been consulting with Lovell for YEARS, oh, and by the way, so have many players/teams from the NFL and NHL (see Aikman, Steve Young, Eric Lindros, Crosby, etc.). I find it surprising that you would doubt the credibility of this kind of clinician or the ethics of his work. Your arguement for specilists being biased might work for some specialists, but it doesn't work in this case. I think it's time to move on...

No, no...that's fine. I have no problem with this. The concern I have is whether someone like Lovell is even being involved in, say, a case like Polamalu's. If he is their designated go-to guy for the "independent" specialist, so be it. As long as he is not on their payroll, which I thought it was argued earlier that he was (if I misunderstood, my bad), then that's perfectly legitimate.But, what I see happening here is that, if the team's medical providers say, "Polamalu has a concussion" then by the league's new rules, the return-to-play decision automatically goes to the hands of the independent neuropsychologist/neurologist (though, I think the NFL stipulated that it had to be an M.D., so the neurologist). But, let's say it's Lovell and his group. That's fine. If he is independent, that's ok. But, if the team says "Polamalu has concussion-like symptoms" but refrain from diagnosing him with a concussion, then the team can keep the decision in-house and have its own, paid medical personnel to decide. That's the issue here.

 

[belljr]

As for whether it's right or wrong, I don't really care much. If the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there's nothing a Steelers doctor is going to be able to do about that. They're grown men getting paid, and they're ultimately responsible for the decisions they make. As a fan, if they can play, I want them to play, but it's sure as hell not up to me on whether or not they do.

I just find it laughable that you'd say the Steelers have a long history of this kind of thing when the Steelers lost a close game on the road against the Ravens in 2009 because they benched Roethlisberger the week after he suffered a concussion, despite Ben's efforts to convince everyone he was OK. If you want to talk about an isolated incident with Polamalu, fine, but don't make it sound like it's more than that.

And don't forget Hines Ward. "Injured neck" they called it. Clearly concussed. But, it was his neck. Yeah, and with Ben, I'm unimpressed. The fact that Tomlin held him out all of 7 days following a concussion, that should just be the rule, not the exception. And, the fact that the organization was so cagey about it...Tomlin referring to it as a "concussion-oriented thing" (now referred to as "concussion-like symptoms)...it's a pattern unique to Tomlin and the Steelers. They have a history of doing this sort of thing. They clearly play around with the diagnosis, avoid calling it for what it is,and the league needs to step in and put a stop to it. It's too serious an issue to take so flippantly, like the Steelers' organization has.

Problem is, you're assumption that if the symptoms warrant a diagnosis of a concussion, there is something else the Steelers doctors can do: They can say the player has "concussion-like symptoms" and not be committing malpractice because...that's exactly what the player has. But, to avoid making the diagnosis, it benefits the Steelers tremendously because they can be the ones to decide--not the league--when the player returns to play. Independent neurologists don't care if a guy can't be on the field for a critical division matchup or a playoff game, but the player/coach/organization certainly does and can exact pressure on team physicians to give clearance. This isn't fantasyland fiction stuff either. Happens all..the..time.

This might temper your witch-hunt a bit:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09328/1015831-66.stm

It's not a witch hunt. I'd just like them to be straight about this stuff, and they haven't been. Plus, I don't know if this 2009 information is relevant to the new league rules instituted this year.

Yeah, nevermind the fact that the two primary Steelers' doctors have already been approved by the players' union, one of whom is the Director of UPMC's sports concussion program. I'm sure the union and the NFL are both in on the conspiracy, too. Anything to help the Steelers, right?I'm sure they put their medical licenses and reputations at a world-renowned facility on the line for the Steelers.

Gaining approval as a specialist is not that big of a deal and is irrelevant to this discussion. I know plenty of my own colleagues who are the independent neuropsychologists for several NFL teams, and they are top notch folks, coming from top notch training and institutions. They'll tell you the exact same thing. There needs to be transparency and, in the issue of a life-threatening syndrome, such as concussions, where the team goals and the doctors goals are at odds, the only sensible conclusion is to create a system of independent evaluators who are not paid by the teams to conduct objective and impartial evaluations. Pittsburgh, I believe, is subject to this as much as all the other teams in the league...this is not 2009.

Cobalt, your point is getting thinner and thinner. First, although you are correct in saying that gaining approval as a specialist is not that big of a deal - gaining approval as an expert is. There is a BIG difference between "specialist" and "expert" If someone needs arm surgery they don't go to a specialist in a hospital when they can go to Dr. Andrews (Tommy John expert). If an NFL player needs a concussion specialist he might go to one of your friends, but if he wanted an "expert" he would go to Lovell. Lovell is NOT on the Steelers payroll. He is an independent consultant, an expert in the field who writes volumes of peer reviewed articles and books. Maybe more important to your point is that he is available to all NFL teams and happens to work in the city of Pittsburgh. Why would the Steelers have their players see anyone else? The previous article from 2009 is completely relevant to this. Like it or not, the Steelers have been consulting with Lovell for YEARS, oh, and by the way, so have many players/teams from the NFL and NHL (see Aikman, Steve Young, Eric Lindros, Crosby, etc.). I find it surprising that you would doubt the credibility of this kind of clinician or the ethics of his work. Your arguement for specilists being biased might work for some specialists, but it doesn't work in this case. I think it's time to move on...

No, no...that's fine. I have no problem with this. The concern I have is whether someone like Lovell is even being involved in, say, a case like Polamalu's. If he is their designated go-to guy for the "independent" specialist, so be it. As long as he is not on their payroll, which I thought it was argued earlier that he was (if I misunderstood, my bad), then that's perfectly legitimate.But, what I see happening here is that, if the team's medical providers say, "Polamalu has a concussion" then by the league's new rules, the return-to-play decision automatically goes to the hands of the independent neuropsychologist/neurologist (though, I think the NFL stipulated that it had to be an M.D., so the neurologist). But, let's say it's Lovell and his group. That's fine. If he is independent, that's ok. But, if the team says "Polamalu has concussion-like symptoms" but refrain from diagnosing him with a concussion, then the team can keep the decision in-house and have its own, paid medical personnel to decide. That's the issue here.

I thought I would jump back in the boat....You mean leaving it in house to their team doctor Dr. Joseph Maroon?