Steelers offering Big Ben for a top-10 pick (4 Viewers)

[Evilgrin 72]

@TMIAHM Cant name source. Details Raiders 1st rd pick (8th) and Asomugha for Ben and Steelers 1st rd pick (18)

Seems like his source might be half the posters in this thread who are assuming the deal could get done like that. Well, maybe you Stillers can enjoy your 10 spot move + Aso's nice contract!

You're very Steelers obsessed for a Vikings fan.

As a diehard Viking fan, everything that affects the NFL is pertinent to me. (Also, the historical Vikings threw a lot of rape around with their pillaging so I am following BenGray's story with that in perspective. Not that he's Viking material, mind you.)Also: The Raiders (who some have claimed have been a poorly run franchise) did not think Ben was worth a single 1st rounder, let alone multiple firsts a la Cutler

Steve Corkran of the Oakland Tribune reports that the Raiders contacted the Steelers about a possible trade, that the Raiders weren't willing to give up the No. 8 pick in the draft, and the Steelers weren't willing to throw in the No. 18 pick in order to sweeten the deal.So unless the Steelers will take Oakland's second-round pick, it's not going to happen.

Steelers are really boxing themselves into a corner with all the shopping but are clearly asking for too high a price for someone who is one strike away from being out of the league.

They have to. My contention all along that you keep laughing at, because I think you misunderstand, is that he's worth multiple firsts AS A PLAYER. I understand fully that the current market value due to circumstance is such that they'll never get that back. That's why I keep saying they should not deal him.

 

[CrossEyed]

They should trade him to the Pirates. They make worse deals than anybody.

 

[Masked Vigilante]

They should trade him to the Pirates. They make worse deals than anybody.

Can Ronny Cedeno play QB?

 

[Godsbrother]

Dealing Roethlisberger to move up 10 spots is ridiculous and I cannot see the Steelers making this deal, especially to Oakland.

If this is the best they can get then the Steelers don't have much of a choice than to keep him. They have already paid the guaranteed part of his salary so at this point you hold on to him and hope that he's finally wised-up. His little birthday celebration has cost him his reputation, millions of dollars and put his career in jeopardy. I think even a lunkhead like Roethlisberger has figured out that he has run out of second-chances.

Eventually this is going to blow over ala the Kobe situation and assuming he has learned his lesson and is a good boy there are going to be some teams kicking themselves for not buying when the price is low.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Dealing Roethlisberger to move up 10 spots is ridiculous and I cannot see the Steelers making this deal, especially to Oakland. If this is the best they can get then the Steelers don't have much of a choice than to keep him. They have already paid the guaranteed part of his salary so at this point you hold on to him and hope that he's finally wised-up. His little birthday celebration has cost him his reputation, millions of dollars and put his career in jeopardy. I think even a lunkhead like Roethlisberger has figured out that he has run out of second-chances. Eventually this is going to blow over ala the Kobe situation and assuming he has learned his lesson and is a good boy there are going to be some teams kicking themselves for not buying when the price is low.

Exactly. Couldn't agree more.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

I'm talking about the DA. He had every piece of evidence there was, far more than anyone here is privy to, and he determined that there wasn't sufficient evidence to press charges.

You're aware that the investigating officer that night tried to keep the woman from pressing charges, and allowed evidence to be destroyed, right? And that the bar scrubbed the bathroom clean and destroyed their video, right?

Doesn't occur to you that the bar found out the girl was underage and wanted the matter to die so they didn't lose their liquor license? Or that the investigating officer saw the girl was blitzed and was being prodded by her sorority sisters and didn't want a media circus over something he didn't feel was illegal? It's not necessarily a conspiracy to cover up for Roethlisberger.You're dealing only in circumstantial evidence and statements the veracity of which we cannot determine. That's why no charges were filed. You may convict him in your mind, but the truth is, we have no idea what went on.

But carry on calling him a rapist if you like. It's your right.

Don't you realize that the police would have the videotaped evidence from the bar if they hadn't gotten called away to a murder scene? Don't you think the timing of that murder is just a little toooooooo convenient? C'mon. They're even killing people to cover up for Ben's penis.

 

[5-ish Finkle]

Don't you realize that the police would have the videotaped evidence from the bar if they hadn't gotten called away to a murder scene? Don't you think the timing of that murder is just a little toooooooo convenient? C'mon. They're even killing people to cover up for Ben's penis.

Makes sense, since it's allegedly so 'ashy.' Who'd want to see that? Best that they keep it covered up.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

I'm talking about the DA. He had every piece of evidence there was, far more than anyone here is privy to, and he determined that there wasn't sufficient evidence to press charges.

You're aware that the investigating officer that night tried to keep the woman from pressing charges, and allowed evidence to be destroyed, right? And that the bar scrubbed the bathroom clean and destroyed their video, right?

Doesn't occur to you that the bar found out the girl was underage and wanted the matter to die so they didn't lose their liquor license? Or that the investigating officer saw the girl was blitzed and was being prodded by her sorority sisters and didn't want a media circus over something he didn't feel was illegal? It's not necessarily a conspiracy to cover up for Roethlisberger.You're dealing only in circumstantial evidence and statements the veracity of which we cannot determine. That's why no charges were filed. You may convict him in your mind, but the truth is, we have no idea what went on.

But carry on calling him a rapist if you like. It's your right.

Don't you realize that the police would have the videotaped evidence from the bar if they hadn't gotten called away to a murder scene? Don't you think the timing of that murder is just a little toooooooo convenient? C'mon. They're even killing people to cover up for Ben's penis.

 

[fatness]

Doesn't occur to you that the bar found out the girl was underage and wanted the matter to die so they didn't lose their liquor license? Or that the investigating officer saw the girl was blitzed and was being prodded by her sorority sisters and didn't want a media circus over something he didn't feel was illegal? It's not necessarily a conspiracy to cover up for Roethlisberger.You're dealing only in circumstantial evidence and statements the veracity of which we cannot determine. That's why no charges were filed. You may convict him in your mind, but the truth is, we have no idea what went on.But carry on calling him a rapist if you like. It's your right.

The bar destroyed evidence, and the cop (Jerry Blash) allowed them to do so. You made the assertion that there wasn't evidence against Roethlisberger --- well duh, that might be why. The bar's reason for doing it (which you're talking about now) doesn't change the fact that they destroyed it.I haven't called him a rapist either. You need to pay more attention, instead of flailing away in all directions. If you can't keep posters here straight, people will question your ability to understand other details.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Exactly why they shouldn't unload him right now.Let's say you and a friend each buy stock (you bought RTH, he bought CUT) at $10 a share and both stocks go through the roof. Your buddy dumps his shares of Cutler, Inc a year ago for $40 a share and makes a killing. You decide to hold on to RTH, even though it's at $50. Here we are a year later and a scandal has rocked RTH. Something about execs using company funds to pay for trips to Thailand to sleep with underage male prostitutes. Stock is now at about $9 a share. However, by all accounts, it seems to be a temporary setback. Sure, further scandal could render the stock completely useless, but it's more likely that it will at least double a year from now, and could theoretically move back into that $30-50 range in the same time period. Someone comes along and offers you $9.50 a share for your entire stake.Yeah, it's a good deal NOW because you're going to recoup most of your initial investment and the stock has bottomed out. But if you think a bounce-back (Roethlisberger stays out of further trouble) is more likely than the stock bottoming out (he gets himself into another sexual assault mess,) and that this stock is very likely to be trading anywhere from $20-$40 a share in the upcoming year, is it a good idea to sell off your position now?

In your example, some one would come in and buy RTH at about $20 per share if they thought it was likely that it would be trading at double in a bout a year with much higher upside. The market value would include the likelihood that the stock is only suffering a temporary setback and is likely to soar over the coming years.

Not if all the other investors knew the guy holding the stock was guaranteed to selll at $9.50 because he was calling everyone with money in the bank in an attempt to unload it at a song.

As long as there are multiple other investors, this isn't really an issue. If the seller has to sell, and both other investors value the stock at $25.00, they're both going to be interested in buying the stock at a whole lot more than $9.50. The problem comes when you have only one buyer. And if that's the case, then I think you can throw out the assumption that Roethlisberger's stock is very likely to double or triple in value; if that was the case, there would be many investors interested.

 

[CrossEyed]

Dealing Roethlisberger to move up 10 spots is ridiculous and I cannot see the Steelers making this deal, especially to Oakland.

If this is the best they can get then the Steelers don't have much of a choice than to keep him. They have already paid the guaranteed part of his salary so at this point you hold on to him and hope that he's finally wised-up. His little birthday celebration has cost him his reputation, millions of dollars and put his career in jeopardy. I think even a lunkhead like Roethlisberger has figured out that he has run out of second-chances.

Eventually this is going to blow over ala the Kobe situation and assuming he has learned his lesson and is a good boy there are going to be some teams kicking themselves for not buying when the price is low.

Assuming this is the first or second time the Steelers have read Ben the riot act, maybe that's true. But perhaps this is a discussion that they've had with him on multiple occasions. Maybe the Steelers realize that Ben will never "get it". We have no idea how many conversations have taken place behind closed doors. We do know that this is the third time that Ben has had to make public statements saying that he wants to be the leader of the Pittsburgh Steelers. Yet his actions keep saying that he just wants to do what makes Ben happy at the moment.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Doesn't occur to you that the bar found out the girl was underage and wanted the matter to die so they didn't lose their liquor license? Or that the investigating officer saw the girl was blitzed and was being prodded by her sorority sisters and didn't want a media circus over something he didn't feel was illegal? It's not necessarily a conspiracy to cover up for Roethlisberger.You're dealing only in circumstantial evidence and statements the veracity of which we cannot determine. That's why no charges were filed. You may convict him in your mind, but the truth is, we have no idea what went on.But carry on calling him a rapist if you like. It's your right.

The bar destroyed evidence, and the cop (Jerry Blash) allowed them to do so. You made the assertion that there wasn't evidence against Roethlisberger --- well duh, that might be why. The bar's reason for doing it (which you're talking about now) doesn't change the fact that they destroyed it.I haven't called him a rapist either. You need to pay more attention, instead of flailing away in all directions. If you can't keep posters here straight, people will question your ability to understand other details.

Try arguing with 15 people across 4 different threads simultaneously and see if you can keep names straight. In any event, it's got nothing to do with you. If I accused you of saying something you didn't say, I apologize. My point is that people calling him a rapist are being lazy or just trying to be provocative. Whatever the reasons are, there is no evidence to support that. My main point is that trading him right now would be foolish if all they're going to get back is a move up of 10 spots in round 1.

 

[timschochet]

The fact that Ben can't even get a single first round pick should speak volumes to his defenders. Apparently the rest of the league is already aware of his character...or lack thereof. And I'm not just talking about the one or two incidents in question at the moment.

I think they're being amazingly stupid, frankly. And I am very grateful. There is no way to replace Ben Roethlisberger. There is no way to get anywhere close to equal value for him. Therefore, the Steelers need to keep him, and hope it turns out OK. If his character is such that eventually he has to be discarded, so be it. If he does something else wrong then he gets dumped, and the Steelers get nothing in return. I can live with that risk.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Exactly why they shouldn't unload him right now.Let's say you and a friend each buy stock (you bought RTH, he bought CUT) at $10 a share and both stocks go through the roof. Your buddy dumps his shares of Cutler, Inc a year ago for $40 a share and makes a killing. You decide to hold on to RTH, even though it's at $50. Here we are a year later and a scandal has rocked RTH. Something about execs using company funds to pay for trips to Thailand to sleep with underage male prostitutes. Stock is now at about $9 a share. However, by all accounts, it seems to be a temporary setback. Sure, further scandal could render the stock completely useless, but it's more likely that it will at least double a year from now, and could theoretically move back into that $30-50 range in the same time period. Someone comes along and offers you $9.50 a share for your entire stake.Yeah, it's a good deal NOW because you're going to recoup most of your initial investment and the stock has bottomed out. But if you think a bounce-back (Roethlisberger stays out of further trouble) is more likely than the stock bottoming out (he gets himself into another sexual assault mess,) and that this stock is very likely to be trading anywhere from $20-$40 a share in the upcoming year, is it a good idea to sell off your position now?

In your example, some one would come in and buy RTH at about $20 per share if they thought it was likely that it would be trading at double in a bout a year with much higher upside. The market value would include the likelihood that the stock is only suffering a temporary setback and is likely to soar over the coming years.

Not if all the other investors knew the guy holding the stock was guaranteed to selll at $9.50 because he was calling everyone with money in the bank in an attempt to unload it at a song.

As long as there are multiple other investors, this isn't really an issue. If the seller has to sell, and both other investors value the stock at $25.00, they're both going to be interested in buying the stock at a whole lot more than $9.50. The problem comes when you have only one buyer. And if that's the case, then I think you can throw out the assumption that Roethlisberger's stock is very likely to double or triple in value; if that was the case, there would be many investors interested.

I disagree. You think if he serves his suspension, shows contrition, follows the tenets of the plan laid out for rehabilitation by the commissioner, comes out in week 6 and plays lights out all season and leads the Steelers to another SB victory that his value next offseason (if they wanted to deal him) wouldn't be double what it is now? IMO, that's a more likely scenario than one in which he pulls this same BS again and gets suspended for a year. Problem is, it's a hot button issue at the moment and teams are concerned about taking the PR hit.

 

[Godsbrother]

The fact that Ben can't even get a single first round pick should speak volumes to his defenders. Apparently the rest of the league is already aware of his character...or lack thereof. And I'm not just talking about the one or two incidents in question at the moment.

I think they're being amazingly stupid, frankly. And I am very grateful. There is no way to replace Ben Roethlisberger. There is no way to get anywhere close to equal value for him. Therefore, the Steelers need to keep him, and hope it turns out OK. If his character is such that eventually he has to be discarded, so be it. If he does something else wrong then he gets dumped, and the Steelers get nothing in return. I can live with that risk.

Let's face it: there are a lot of players that bear a certain amount of risk. At this point I think the risk of a repeat offense from Roethlisberger is worth taking considering what little value is being offered.

 

[timschochet]

Dealing Roethlisberger to move up 10 spots is ridiculous and I cannot see the Steelers making this deal, especially to Oakland.

If this is the best they can get then the Steelers don't have much of a choice than to keep him. They have already paid the guaranteed part of his salary so at this point you hold on to him and hope that he's finally wised-up. His little birthday celebration has cost him his reputation, millions of dollars and put his career in jeopardy. I think even a lunkhead like Roethlisberger has figured out that he has run out of second-chances.

Eventually this is going to blow over ala the Kobe situation and assuming he has learned his lesson and is a good boy there are going to be some teams kicking themselves for not buying when the price is low.

Assuming this is the first or second time the Steelers have read Ben the riot act, maybe that's true. But perhaps this is a discussion that they've had with him on multiple occasions. Maybe the Steelers realize that Ben will never "get it". We have no idea how many conversations have taken place behind closed doors. We do know that this is the third time that Ben has had to make public statements saying that he wants to be the leader of the Pittsburgh Steelers. Yet his actions keep saying that he just wants to do what makes Ben happy at the moment.

Crosseyed, the best part of the Christian philosophy for me is the idea of redemption; that no matter how many times a person tries and fails, he is ultimately always able to change his character for the better. Don't you believe in this too?

 

[Evilgrin 72]

The fact that Ben can't even get a single first round pick should speak volumes to his defenders. Apparently the rest of the league is already aware of his character...or lack thereof. And I'm not just talking about the one or two incidents in question at the moment.

I think they're being amazingly stupid, frankly. And I am very grateful. There is no way to replace Ben Roethlisberger. There is no way to get anywhere close to equal value for him. Therefore, the Steelers need to keep him, and hope it turns out OK. If his character is such that eventually he has to be discarded, so be it. If he does something else wrong then he gets dumped, and the Steelers get nothing in return. I can live with that risk.

I agree. Moving up 10 spots in round 1 is such small return that there would have to be about a 95% chance he'll get chased out of the league in order for it to make sense. I'd rather hold on to him and hope for the best. If the downside is they lose him with no return and the upside is they win 2 more Super Bowls behind him, I'd say moving up 10 spots in this draft is about thisclose to the downside and light years from the upside.

 

[beavers]

Herm Edwards criticizes Steelers for shopping BB

Herm Edwards criticizes Steelers for shopping RoethlisbergerPosted by Michael David Smith on April 22, 2010 9:50 AM ETFormer NFL player and coach Herm Edwards appeared on ESPN Radio this morning and offered a different take on the Ben Roethlisberger story, criticizing the Pittsburgh Steelers for overlooking Roethlisberger's bad actions while the Steelers were winning Super Bowls but now trying to kick Roethlisberger when he's down by trying to trade him."As a coach and a guy who's been in this league for 30 years, and understands about protecting the shield, I agree with the commissioner about suspending Ben," Edwards said. "But what I don't get is rumors about Ben being traded."Edwards said that as a coach he would have tried to get involved in personally helping Roethlisberger at the first hint of off-field problems -- even if that hint came at a time when Roethlisberger was winning a Super Bowl."He has a problem," Edwards said. "When the Pittsburgh Steelers won two Super bowl trophies, he probably had those problems."Edwards questioned whether the Steelers are really doing the right thing if they get rid of Roethlisberger."We preach the team is a family," Edwards said. "When your son gets a DUI and wrecks the car, do you take him to the adoption agency and say you don't want him as your son anymore?"Edwards noted that he has two daughters and doesn't want to sound like he's condoning anything Roethlisberger did, but he also said that he thinks the ownership and coaching staff should have been working with Roethlisberger to try to get him to see that he needs to change the way he acts off the field."I made it my business to understand what players have issues," Edwards said. "Those are the guys that you reach out to."

Did Herm forget about when the Steelers supported him after his accident? Or how about the first sexual assault accusation?

 

[timschochet]

The fact that Ben can't even get a single first round pick should speak volumes to his defenders. Apparently the rest of the league is already aware of his character...or lack thereof. And I'm not just talking about the one or two incidents in question at the moment.

I think they're being amazingly stupid, frankly. And I am very grateful. There is no way to replace Ben Roethlisberger. There is no way to get anywhere close to equal value for him. Therefore, the Steelers need to keep him, and hope it turns out OK. If his character is such that eventually he has to be discarded, so be it. If he does something else wrong then he gets dumped, and the Steelers get nothing in return. I can live with that risk.

I agree. Moving up 10 spots in round 1 is such small return that there would have to be about a 95% chance he'll get chased out of the league in order for it to make sense. I'd rather hold on to him and hope for the best. If the downside is they lose him with no return and the upside is they win 2 more Super Bowls behind him, I'd say moving up 10 spots in this draft is about thisclose to the downside and light years from the upside.

What worries me most now is that by announcing they were looking to trade him they may have burned their bridges with him. If so, it may already be too late to salvage this situation. That's why I was so dismayed at hearing that news yesterday morning.

 

[n20]

Herm Edwards criticizes Steelers for shopping BB

Herm Edwards criticizes Steelers for shopping RoethlisbergerPosted by Michael David Smith on April 22, 2010 9:50 AM ETFormer NFL player and coach Herm Edwards appeared on ESPN Radio this morning and offered a different take on the Ben Roethlisberger story, criticizing the Pittsburgh Steelers for overlooking Roethlisberger's bad actions while the Steelers were winning Super Bowls but now trying to kick Roethlisberger when he's down by trying to trade him."As a coach and a guy who's been in this league for 30 years, and understands about protecting the shield, I agree with the commissioner about suspending Ben," Edwards said. "But what I don't get is rumors about Ben being traded."Edwards said that as a coach he would have tried to get involved in personally helping Roethlisberger at the first hint of off-field problems -- even if that hint came at a time when Roethlisberger was winning a Super Bowl."He has a problem," Edwards said. "When the Pittsburgh Steelers won two Super bowl trophies, he probably had those problems."Edwards questioned whether the Steelers are really doing the right thing if they get rid of Roethlisberger."We preach the team is a family," Edwards said. "When your son gets a DUI and wrecks the car, do you take him to the adoption agency and say you don't want him as your son anymore?"Edwards noted that he has two daughters and doesn't want to sound like he's condoning anything Roethlisberger did, but he also said that he thinks the ownership and coaching staff should have been working with Roethlisberger to try to get him to see that he needs to change the way he acts off the field."I made it my business to understand what players have issues," Edwards said. "Those are the guys that you reach out to."

Did Herm forget about when the Steelers supported him after his accident? Or how about the first sexual assault accusation?

What if they're trying to trade to win the game, Herm?

 

[Evilgrin 72]

The fact that Ben can't even get a single first round pick should speak volumes to his defenders. Apparently the rest of the league is already aware of his character...or lack thereof. And I'm not just talking about the one or two incidents in question at the moment.

I think they're being amazingly stupid, frankly. And I am very grateful. There is no way to replace Ben Roethlisberger. There is no way to get anywhere close to equal value for him. Therefore, the Steelers need to keep him, and hope it turns out OK. If his character is such that eventually he has to be discarded, so be it. If he does something else wrong then he gets dumped, and the Steelers get nothing in return. I can live with that risk.

I agree. Moving up 10 spots in round 1 is such small return that there would have to be about a 95% chance he'll get chased out of the league in order for it to make sense. I'd rather hold on to him and hope for the best. If the downside is they lose him with no return and the upside is they win 2 more Super Bowls behind him, I'd say moving up 10 spots in this draft is about thisclose to the downside and light years from the upside.

What worries me most now is that by announcing they were looking to trade him they may have burned their bridges with him. If so, it may already be too late to salvage this situation. That's why I was so dismayed at hearing that news yesterday morning.

His lawyer said on the radio a few minutes ago that he absolutely wants to remain with the Steelers. I don't think he feels he's in any position to get his panties in a bunch at this point.

 

[fatness]

Try arguing with 15 people across 4 different threads simultaneously and see if you can keep names straight. In any event, it's got nothing to do with you. If I accused you of saying something you didn't say, I apologize. My point is that people calling him a rapist are being lazy or just trying to be provocative. Whatever the reasons are, there is no evidence to support that.

There's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's a rapist. And there's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's not a rapist.

 

[fatness]

Let's face it: there are a lot of players that bear a certain amount of risk. At this point I think the risk of a repeat offense from Roethlisberger is worth taking considering what little value is being offered.

Question: Do you think it's possible that the Steelers' front office has already 'read him the riot act' one or more times before this whole thing blew up in public? I'm wondering if that is why they're shopping him --- because they've given up on hoping for a turnaround from him.

 

[Jeremy]

The fact that Ben can't even get a single first round pick should speak volumes to his defenders. Apparently the rest of the league is already aware of his character...or lack thereof. And I'm not just talking about the one or two incidents in question at the moment.

That they can't even get a single top 10 overall pick for a QB of his talent is very, very telling and suggests there's even more out there than we're hearing. Pretty hard to make the "all he did was have sex" argument now. If that was the extend of it, certainly a team like the Raiders, Seahawks or Bills would give up their first rounders in a heartbeat. Even Ken Whisenhunt doesn't want him.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Try arguing with 15 people across 4 different threads simultaneously and see if you can keep names straight.

In any event, it's got nothing to do with you. If I accused you of saying something you didn't say, I apologize. My point is that people calling him a rapist are being lazy or just trying to be provocative. Whatever the reasons are, there is no evidence to support that.

There's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's a rapist. And there's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's not a rapist.

The bolded is where we disagree. All the evidence I've seen to support that notion is circumstantial at best and shady at worst. My guess is that since charges weren't filed, the DA felt similarly. If there was any concrete evidence of rape or sexual assault, he would have been morally compelled to at least send it to trial. Kobe and that girl were alone in a room together, so there was a similar he said/she said dynamic, and that case was prosecuted. And he's a bigger star than Roethlisberger.

 

[timschochet]

Try arguing with 15 people across 4 different threads simultaneously and see if you can keep names straight. In any event, it's got nothing to do with you. If I accused you of saying something you didn't say, I apologize. My point is that people calling him a rapist are being lazy or just trying to be provocative. Whatever the reasons are, there is no evidence to support that.

There's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's a rapist. And there's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's not a rapist.

Frankly, I don't think there's enough evidence of either. Tell me, do you think Bill Clinton is a rapist? There's even more "evidence" indicting him of rape than of Roethlisberger. In Clinton's case, at least two women actually appeared on television multple times to claim they had been raped by the former president, and two more women charged him with improper sexual advances. Yet I did not find this to be either conclusive or compelling. How about you?

 

[Idiot Boxer]

The fact that Ben can't even get a single first round pick should speak volumes to his defenders. Apparently the rest of the league is already aware of his character...or lack thereof. And I'm not just talking about the one or two incidents in question at the moment.

That they can't even get a single top 10 overall pick for a QB of his talent is very, very telling and suggests there's even more out there than we're hearing. Pretty hard to make the "all he did was have sex" argument now. If that was the extend of it, certainly a team like the Raiders, Seahawks or Bills would give up their first rounders in a heartbeat. Even Ken Whisenhunt doesn't want him.

You're right. With this evidence, the DA should probably re-open the case and charge him.

 

[MDSkinner]

Try arguing with 15 people across 4 different threads simultaneously and see if you can keep names straight.

In any event, it's got nothing to do with you. If I accused you of saying something you didn't say, I apologize. My point is that people calling him a rapist are being lazy or just trying to be provocative. Whatever the reasons are, there is no evidence to support that.

There's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's a rapist. And there's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's not a rapist.

The bolded is where we disagree. All the evidence I've seen to support that notion is circumstantial at best and shady at worst. My guess is that since charges weren't filed, the DA felt similarly. If there was any concrete evidence of rape or sexual assault, he would have been morally compelled to at least send it to trial. Kobe and that girl were alone in a room together, so there was a similar he said/she said dynamic, and that case was prosecuted. And he's a bigger star than Roethlisberger.

I am with fatness on this one. I understand your point completely that the evidence is circumstantial, but there is so much smoke around this situation that a fire somewhere is a very reasonable conclusion to come to. Whether he actually raped this girl (or one of the other 3) is certainly a jump to conclusions, but to sit and think that he did nothing is just as much a jump.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Jesus... I have 2.25% of the total posts on FBG over the last 24 hours, and I haven't posted in the FFA once. I need to relax for a bit...

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Try arguing with 15 people across 4 different threads simultaneously and see if you can keep names straight.

In any event, it's got nothing to do with you. If I accused you of saying something you didn't say, I apologize. My point is that people calling him a rapist are being lazy or just trying to be provocative. Whatever the reasons are, there is no evidence to support that.

There's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's a rapist. And there's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's not a rapist.

The bolded is where we disagree. All the evidence I've seen to support that notion is circumstantial at best and shady at worst. My guess is that since charges weren't filed, the DA felt similarly. If there was any concrete evidence of rape or sexual assault, he would have been morally compelled to at least send it to trial. Kobe and that girl were alone in a room together, so there was a similar he said/she said dynamic, and that case was prosecuted. And he's a bigger star than Roethlisberger.

I am with fatness on this one. I understand your point completely that the evidence is circumstantial, but there is so much smoke around this situation that a fire somewhere is a very reasonable conclusion to come to. Whether he actually raped this girl (or one of the other 3) is certainly a jump to conclusions, but to sit and think that he did nothing is just as much a jump.

I don't think he did NOTHING, I just don't think he's guilty of rape. Seeing as he hasn't even been charged with anything, let alone tried or convicted, I don't think it's much of a jump to stop short of calling him a rapist or saying "he raped 2 girls".

 

[timschochet]

His lawyer said on the radio a few minutes ago that he absolutely wants to remain with the Steelers. I don't think he feels he's in any position to get his panties in a bunch at this point.

Well, that is good news. As a Laker fan, and other Laker fans will probably remember this, I still recall when two days AFTER Kobe was charged with rape an interview was published where he ripped Shaq, Phil Jackson, and the entire Laker franchise. At the time I figured that was the end, there was no way he could remain a Laker after that. Yet here he is several years later and I'm still rooting for him.

 

[Godsbrother]

Try arguing with 15 people across 4 different threads simultaneously and see if you can keep names straight.

In any event, it's got nothing to do with you. If I accused you of saying something you didn't say, I apologize. My point is that people calling him a rapist are being lazy or just trying to be provocative. Whatever the reasons are, there is no evidence to support that.

There's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's a rapist. And there's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's not a rapist.

The bolded is where we disagree. All the evidence I've seen to support that notion is circumstantial at best and shady at worst. My guess is that since charges weren't filed, the DA felt similarly. If there was any concrete evidence of rape or sexual assault, he would have been morally compelled to at least send it to trial. Kobe and that girl were alone in a room together, so there was a similar he said/she said dynamic, and that case was prosecuted. And he's a bigger star than Roethlisberger.

I am with fatness on this one. I understand your point completely that the evidence is circumstantial, but there is so much smoke around this situation that a fire somewhere is a very reasonable conclusion to come to. Whether he actually raped this girl (or one of the other 3) is certainly a jump to conclusions, but to sit and think that he did nothing is just as much a jump.

I don't think anyone here believes that nothing happened. But that does not necessarily mean he raped the girl either.

 

[fatness]

Try arguing with 15 people across 4 different threads simultaneously and see if you can keep names straight.

In any event, it's got nothing to do with you. If I accused you of saying something you didn't say, I apologize. My point is that people calling him a rapist are being lazy or just trying to be provocative. Whatever the reasons are, there is no evidence to support that.

There's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's a rapist. And there's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's not a rapist.

The bolded is where we disagree. All the evidence I've seen to support that notion is circumstantial at best and shady at worst. My guess is that since charges weren't filed, the DA felt similarly.

It's fair to say you've avoided looking at much of the evidence. I offered you a link to some of it yesterday which you declined to read.

 

[Jeremy]

The fact that Ben can't even get a single first round pick should speak volumes to his defenders. Apparently the rest of the league is already aware of his character...or lack thereof. And I'm not just talking about the one or two incidents in question at the moment.

That they can't even get a single top 10 overall pick for a QB of his talent is very, very telling and suggests there's even more out there than we're hearing. Pretty hard to make the "all he did was have sex" argument now. If that was the extend of it, certainly a team like the Raiders, Seahawks or Bills would give up their first rounders in a heartbeat. Even Ken Whisenhunt doesn't want him.

You're right. With this evidence, the DA should probably re-open the case and charge him.

People with his kind of talent get 2nd chances, 3rd chances...10th chances. We see it all the time in sports. Seemingly nobody will touch this guy. I find that amazing. Either he's got a worse rep than even we're aware of, and/or they think he's overrated as a QB.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

The fact that Ben can't even get a single first round pick should speak volumes to his defenders. Apparently the rest of the league is already aware of his character...or lack thereof. And I'm not just talking about the one or two incidents in question at the moment.

That they can't even get a single top 10 overall pick for a QB of his talent is very, very telling and suggests there's even more out there than we're hearing. Pretty hard to make the "all he did was have sex" argument now. If that was the extend of it, certainly a team like the Raiders, Seahawks or Bills would give up their first rounders in a heartbeat. Even Ken Whisenhunt doesn't want him.

You're right. With this evidence, the DA should probably re-open the case and charge him.

People with his kind of talent get 2nd chances, 3rd chances...10th chances. We see it all the time in sports. Seemingly nobody will touch this guy. I find that amazing. Either he's got a worse rep than even we're aware of, and/or they think he's overrated as a QB.

You're making a logical leap you can't really make. You're concluding that he is essentially a rapist ("Pretty hard to make the "all he did was have sex" argument now") because Whisenhunt won't trade for him. I think front offices clearly think he's a d-bag. I think they clearly see risk of future, longer suspensions involved with him. I think they see the PR obstacles for trading for him. Then they see what the Steelers want in return for him. And then they weigh all of those things together and decide it isn't worth it. Nowhere in there is there any 'knowledge' by any decision-maker with any team that he did any more than "just have sex".Its like the joke where a man assumes his friend is gay because he doesn't own a weed trimmer.

 

[CrossEyed]

Dealing Roethlisberger to move up 10 spots is ridiculous and I cannot see the Steelers making this deal, especially to Oakland.

If this is the best they can get then the Steelers don't have much of a choice than to keep him. They have already paid the guaranteed part of his salary so at this point you hold on to him and hope that he's finally wised-up. His little birthday celebration has cost him his reputation, millions of dollars and put his career in jeopardy. I think even a lunkhead like Roethlisberger has figured out that he has run out of second-chances.

Eventually this is going to blow over ala the Kobe situation and assuming he has learned his lesson and is a good boy there are going to be some teams kicking themselves for not buying when the price is low.

Assuming this is the first or second time the Steelers have read Ben the riot act, maybe that's true. But perhaps this is a discussion that they've had with him on multiple occasions. Maybe the Steelers realize that Ben will never "get it". We have no idea how many conversations have taken place behind closed doors. We do know that this is the third time that Ben has had to make public statements saying that he wants to be the leader of the Pittsburgh Steelers. Yet his actions keep saying that he just wants to do what makes Ben happy at the moment.

Crosseyed, the best part of the Christian philosophy for me is the idea of redemption; that no matter how many times a person tries and fails, he is ultimately always able to change his character for the better. Don't you believe in this too?

Tim, why is it that you only want to bring Christian philosophy into the discussion when you think it supports your argument?Trying to equate God's forgiveness to the situation with Ben is ridiculous. There is absolutely nothing that anyone could do that would prevent them from being forgiven by God. But that doesn't mean there aren't consequences for your actions. Christian philosophy doesn't say that a murderer shouldn't receive the death penalty if he repents of his sin. Christian philosophy doesn't say that a rapist shouldn't serve jail time if he repents of his sin. Christian philosophy doesn't say that parents shouldn't discipline their children when they disobey the rules if they say they are sorry and promise to never do it again.

Sometimes the only thing that can change a person is a consequence resulting from their actions. Perhaps the only thing that can change Ben's thinking and his behavior is the realization that when people put their trust in you and you repeatedly spit in their face (I'm talking about the Steelers organization here and specifically the Rooneys) you are going to lose that trust and some of the privileges that go along with it.

Spare the rod, spoil the child. Whom the Father loves, He disciplines. Those are part of Christian philosophy too, Tim.

 

[Ghost Rider]

"We preach the team is a family," Edwards said. "When your son gets a DUI and wrecks the car, do you take him to the adoption agency and say you don't want him as your son anymore?"

Um, Ben Roethlisberger is their paid employee, not their son, Herm.

 

[steelcityman]

frankly, I have to question NFL ownerships, how can you draft an unknown pay him $45M over 5 years, but not want a 2 time SB winner who has 6 years left on contract....AND most top 10 draft teams has dog piss jones at QB(Buff, Oak, Sea, Clev, etc).

I really dont care what happens, trade or not, I wont be sad/happy, I will be a Steeler fan. But to think these awful franchises wont even consider trading for a REAL QB, its no wonder they suck year after year....they deserve to.

If I was a Bills fan, had I not ended my life by now, I would be wanting them to trade for Ben, who cares about a top 10 pick, thats a huge risk.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Try arguing with 15 people across 4 different threads simultaneously and see if you can keep names straight.

In any event, it's got nothing to do with you. If I accused you of saying something you didn't say, I apologize. My point is that people calling him a rapist are being lazy or just trying to be provocative. Whatever the reasons are, there is no evidence to support that.

There's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's a rapist. And there's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's not a rapist.

The bolded is where we disagree. All the evidence I've seen to support that notion is circumstantial at best and shady at worst. My guess is that since charges weren't filed, the DA felt similarly.

It's fair to say you've avoided looking at much of the evidence. I offered you a link to some of it yesterday which you declined to read.

I've looked at as much as I'm going to. The full report is 500 pages long, I haven't the time nor desire to read through everything. I feel confident enough in what I have seen and in the synopsis given by the DA to feel pretty comfortable that the evidence is largely circumstantial. You seem to be contending that there's concrete evidence in there, or at the very least, such an overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence that a conclusion that a rape occurred is virtually inevitable. However, the authorities didn't agree with you, so unless they're all Steeler homers too, perhaps it's less a matter of ignorance or rose-colored glasses on my part than it is a desire to condemn him on your part. Hell, the stuff you posted earlier with the statements given by students in the bar do more to clear him than condemn him in my mind, but you seem to think they're damning somehow. Let's just agree to disagree on this and move on. It's a fruitless debate at this point, some people have made up their minds that he's a rapist and aren't likely to change that opinion. The Georgia DA and others feel differently. He wasn't charged, it's over.

 

[Godsbrother]

According to Ed Bouchette, the Steelers beat reporter, the Steelers have NOT been actively shopping Ben Roethlisberger.

They have talked to every NFL team about potential trades because of the upcoming draft as they do every year but they have not necessairly included Roethlisberger in these discussions.

Take it for what it is worth...

 

[Ghost Rider]

frankly, I have to question NFL ownerships, how can you draft an unknown pay him $45M over 5 years, but not want a 2 time SB winner who has 6 years left on contract....AND most top 10 draft teams has dog piss jones at QB(Buff, Oak, Sea, Clev, etc).I really dont care what happens, trade or not, I wont be sad/happy, I will be a Steeler fan. But to think this awful franchises wont even consider trading for a REAL QB, its no wonder they suck year after year....the deserve to.

I think it is understandable to be wary of trading a high draft pick for a player who is already suspended for part of next season, who has shown a pattern of destructive behavior, and who is one more wrong move away from probably being suspended for a much longer time. Sure, he might be worth the risk, but there is a lot of baggage. And it is not like this is Drew Brees or Peyton Manning we are talking about here. Roethlisberger is a very good QB, but he is not a break the bank at all costs QB, especially when you consider the baggage.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

frankly, I have to question NFL ownerships, how can you draft an unknown pay him $45M over 5 years, but not want a 2 time SB winner who has 6 years left on contract....AND most top 10 draft teams has dog piss jones at QB(Buff, Oak, Sea, Clev, etc).I really dont care what happens, trade or not, I wont be sad/happy, I will be a Steeler fan. But to think these awful franchises wont even consider trading for a REAL QB, its no wonder they suck year after year....they deserve to.If I was a Bills fan, had I not ended my life by now, I would be wanting them to trade for Ben, who cares about a top 10 pick, thats a huge risk.

In fairness, Dog Piss Jones did have a pretty solid season in 2007. They may be hoping for a rebound year.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

According to Ed Bouchette, the Steelers beat reporter, the Steelers have NOT been actively shopping Ben Roethlisberger. They have talked to every NFL team about potential trades because of the upcoming draft as they do every year but they have not necessairly included Roethlisberger in these discussions.Take it for what it is worth...

[blews out/]

 

[fred_1_15301]

The fact that Ben can't even get a single first round pick should speak volumes to his defenders. Apparently the rest of the league is already aware of his character...or lack thereof. And I'm not just talking about the one or two incidents in question at the moment.

That they can't even get a single top 10 overall pick for a QB of his talent is very, very telling and suggests there's even more out there than we're hearing. Pretty hard to make the "all he did was have sex" argument now. If that was the extend of it, certainly a team like the Raiders, Seahawks or Bills would give up their first rounders in a heartbeat. Even Ken Whisenhunt doesn't want him.

You're right. With this evidence, the DA should probably re-open the case and charge him.

People with his kind of talent get 2nd chances, 3rd chances...10th chances. We see it all the time in sports. Seemingly nobody will touch this guy. I find that amazing. Either he's got a worse rep than even we're aware of, and/or they think he's overrated as a QB.

What are you talking about? Teams have not said that they wouldn't "touch this guy". They've simply said that they're not giving up their first round pick for him. If they really knew something that we didn't know about this situation, they wouldn't trade a bag of rocks for him. Teams aren't stupid....they know his value is low right now so why pay market value to a team that is desperate? Ben is a huge risk and he's quite frankly not worth what the Steelers want in return for him.

 

[treat88]

Try arguing with 15 people across 4 different threads simultaneously and see if you can keep names straight.

In any event, it's got nothing to do with you. If I accused you of saying something you didn't say, I apologize. My point is that people calling him a rapist are being lazy or just trying to be provocative. Whatever the reasons are, there is no evidence to support that.

There's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's a rapist. And there's enough evidence for people to reasonably conclude that he's not a rapist.

The bolded is where we disagree. All the evidence I've seen to support that notion is circumstantial at best and shady at worst. My guess is that since charges weren't filed, the DA felt similarly.

It's fair to say you've avoided looking at much of the evidence. I offered you a link to some of it yesterday which you declined to read.

I've looked at as much as I'm going to. The full report is 500 pages long, I haven't the time nor desire to read through everything. I feel confident enough in what I have seen and in the synopsis given by the DA to feel pretty comfortable that the evidence is largely circumstantial. You seem to be contending that there's concrete evidence in there, or at the very least, such an overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence that a conclusion that a rape occurred is virtually inevitable. However, the authorities didn't agree with you, so unless they're all Steeler homers too, perhaps it's less a matter of ignorance or rose-colored glasses on my part than it is a desire to condemn him on your part. Hell, the stuff you posted earlier with the statements given by students in the bar do more to clear him than condemn him in my mind, but you seem to think they're damning somehow. Let's just agree to disagree on this and move on. It's a fruitless debate at this point, some people have made up their minds that he's a rapist and aren't likely to change that opinion. The Georgia DA and others feel differently. He wasn't charged, it's over.

Again with the word "evidence".Fatness, man, you are a quality poster, but I don't understand the agenda here.

You provide a link to some piece of information and call it "evidence".

Neither the link, nor the fact someone wrote it down make it "evidence". We both know that, right?

The fact the GBI heard a story about a 16 year old who's friend sister said something about Ben does not make it "evidence" let alone an "incident". You do get that right?

I understand there is lots of information out there that forms the basis for the negative perceptions of BR. There is no arguing that. My perception of him has changed dramatically as well.

But, isn't it more than a little disingenuous to constantly provide links to one perspective of the entire issue and refer to that as "evidence" of "incidents"?

The semantics make a huge difference to the casual observer, and yourself, ScottyFargo, and cobalt_27 seem to be on a mission here.

As I said, fatness, you come across as a reasonable, intelligent poster. Why the campaign?

 

[steelcityman]

Ed Bouchette will say whatever Rooney wants him to.

I dont think he will get traded, why? To lessen the team in the future? There is not one QB in this draft that will win a super bowl IMO, let alone 2. If we go 3-3 with Dixon, Ben comes back, defense stays healthy, steelers will be a force in December and January.

In 3 months this isnt a story anymore, some other player will do something stupid and the lights will be off Ben. And when he comes back, look out, he has enough pride that he will be in top shape and ready to kick ###.

NFL, you had your chance to dent a powerhouse, you chose to draft Jimmy Clausen or Trent Williams.

 

[CrossEyed]

Ed Bouchette will say whatever Rooney wants him to.

I dont think he will get traded, why? To lessen the team in the future? There is not one QB in this draft that will win a super bowl IMO, let alone 2. If we go 3-3 with Dixon, Ben comes back, defense stays healthy, steelers will be a force in December and January.

In 3 months this isnt a story anymore, some other player will do something stupid and the lights will be off Ben. And when he comes back, look out, he has enough pride that he will be in top shape and ready to kick ###.

NFL, you had your chance to dent a powerhouse, you chose to draft Jimmy Clausen or Trent Williams.

Has Ben ever been in shape?

 

[treat88]

Ed Bouchette will say whatever Rooney wants him to.

I dont think he will get traded, why? To lessen the team in the future? There is not one QB in this draft that will win a super bowl IMO, let alone 2. If we go 3-3 with Dixon, Ben comes back, defense stays healthy, steelers will be a force in December and January.

In 3 months this isnt a story anymore, some other player will do something stupid and the lights will be off Ben. And when he comes back, look out, he has enough pride that he will be in top shape and ready to kick ###.

NFL, you had your chance to dent a powerhouse, you chose to draft Jimmy Clausen or Trent Williams.

Has Ben ever been in shape?

Round is a shape.Bad attempt, sorry.

 

[Sheriff66]

Ed Bouchette will say whatever Rooney wants him to.

I dont think he will get traded, why? To lessen the team in the future? There is not one QB in this draft that will win a super bowl IMO, let alone 2. If we go 3-3 with Dixon, Ben comes back, defense stays healthy, steelers will be a force in December and January.

In 3 months this isnt a story anymore, some other player will do something stupid and the lights will be off Ben. And when he comes back, look out, he has enough pride that he will be in top shape and ready to kick ###.

NFL, you had your chance to dent a powerhouse, you chose to draft Jimmy Clausen or Trent Williams.

Has Ben ever been in shape?

After the crash he was in his best shape, but he looks like Shrek now, he should be ashamed.

 

[Sheriff66]

Ed Bouchette will say whatever Rooney wants him to.

I dont think he will get traded, why? To lessen the team in the future? There is not one QB in this draft that will win a super bowl IMO, let alone 2. If we go 3-3 with Dixon, Ben comes back, defense stays healthy, steelers will be a force in December and January.

In 3 months this isnt a story anymore, some other player will do something stupid and the lights will be off Ben. And when he comes back, look out, he has enough pride that he will be in top shape and ready to kick ###.

NFL, you had your chance to dent a powerhouse, you chose to draft Jimmy Clausen or Trent Williams.

Has Ben ever been in shape?

Round is a shape.