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My dad wants to buy that. He's 94 now and he's 'gambling'. His own words. Said it like he was Frank Costanza. Had to have my brother go over there and monitor his trades.

Man, that has taken a beatdown.
I’ve been sitting it out all week after missing Mgm the first go around and had forgotten about these guys

 
I totally understand all the love around MGM once things return to normal but is everyone really comfortable with their balance sheet? $11B in long term debt? What if this thing festers longer than we think?

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/MGM/balance-sheet/
I saw an article today. marketwatch. So i am just watching now.

Shares of MGM Resorts International MGM, -6.13% sank 8.3% in morning trading Friday, putting them on track to snap a 6-day win streak in which they rocketed 88%, after the casino operator provided an update of the COVID-19-related financial impact. The company said that while all of its Macau properties are open, "visitation remains at low levels" given travel constraints. In the U.S., all of its properties have been closed and group cancellations have been "very high." MGM said it has incurred "substantial" operating losses in March as a result of actions to mitigate the spread of COVID-19, and does not expect to see a material improvement until more is known regarding the duration and severity of the pandemic. MGM said it had operating cash of $3.9 billion, including $1.5 billion drawn under its credit facility, and has not debt maturing before 2022, and expects interest payments on its $5.5 billion of outstanding debt to be about $200 million in 2020. Despite the recent rally, the stock has still tumbled 51.7% over the past month, while the S&P 500 SPX, -3.50% has shed 15.2%.

 
NajehHejan said:
Jumped into BRZU at 1.63 - trying to get a quick 10% then jump out. Pure gamble - I could lose all my money.
Got the shakes and sold at 1.75 for 7.5% gain ($600 on 5,000 shares). Will keep looking to play this very short term. 

 
Polish Hammer said:
Inherited a few Vanguard funds that I'll need to withdraw within 10 years. Currently allocation looks like this:

GNMA Fund Admiral - 10%

Wellesley Income Fund Admiral - 45%

Wellington Fund Admiral - 37%

Windsor II Fund Admiral - 8%

Should there be any moving around that makes sense based on current market? Want to grow these as much as reasonably possible in the next 4 years, then will withdraw (possibly to fund part of kids' college) over final 6.
Figured I'd try bumping this one time to see if anyone would offer insights. 

 
CCL has the best balance sheet of the cruise lines and I don't think it will go out of business.  Also, Congress can always act to support cruise lines if things get worse.
Aren't most of the cruise lines NOT based in the United States (eg Carnival incorporated in Panama, Royal Carribean in Liberia, etc)? They did this specifically to avoid taxes in the US and shouldn't be subject to US taxpayer bailouts, IMO.

 
Polish Hammer said:
Inherited a few Vanguard funds that I'll need to withdraw within 10 years. Currently allocation looks like this:

GNMA Fund Admiral - 10%

Wellesley Income Fund Admiral - 45%

Wellington Fund Admiral - 37%

Windsor II Fund Admiral - 8%

Should there be any moving around that makes sense based on current market? Want to grow these as much as reasonably possible in the next 4 years, then will withdraw (possibly to fund part of kids' college) over final 6.


You are unlikely to find anyone who knows these by name. Maybe type a short descriptor and we can respond to that.

e.g.

GNMA Fund Admiral

This bond fund specializes in government mortgage-backed securities. The fund primarily invests in GNMA securities, which are backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government and typically offer a higher yield than U.S. Treasuries. In addition to other bond market risks, the fund is subject to prepayment risk. When mortgage refinance activity is high, the yield on the fund is likely to decrease. 

-------------------

This looks very solid/stable, but the bolded would make me lean toward others. OTOH, its only 10% of the portfolio. Sounds like something that would be in a "Five to Go" fund.Probably won't lose anything, nor gain more than a percent or two.

 
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Figured I'd try bumping this one time to see if anyone would offer insights. 
I have a Vanguard account but put most in a target date fund. I’ve added to some of their individual funds including one that was supposed to be International Low Volatility or something similar.....of course that one some how got slaughtered more than others. 

 
I moved 25% of the wife's TSP back into C fund. I didn't want to move it this soon, but seeing the market move this week, I felt like I shouldn't wait. My personal opinion is that we haven't/didn't hit bottom. But, the market was showing something different. This is money that can't be touched for another 5 years. Anything with a shorter outlook is still sitting in cash or gold funds. 

I'm sure some are thinking I should have left the money in, or that I should have pushed it all in a week or two ago, we had enough savings on January 1st to retire (I'm  retired and 51, wife is 54). My goal was to protect that first, make additional money second. Nobody knows what the next 6 months or year will hold. Worst case scenario, we can't find a cure for this in a year or two. If Trump or Pence or Pelosi (or any number of "important" people) get this and die, then panic could push things further. We also don't know what the reinfection rate is with this virus. China, Singapore and other areas are going to be the test bed to find out. If the market drops further and doesn't recover for years, we are still able to do what we were planning to do with what we have. If the market dropped and we lost 30,40, 50%, we would have to delay retirement and I may have to return to work. I'm probably the most conservative investor posting here. 

Everyone stay safe and wash your hands.

 
Any thoughts in general about restaurant stocks? Many of the big ones are down like 60%.

Just bought some Bloomin brands at $6.59, off from its high in the low 20s, down 15% today. 

Not a lot, just starting my Fidelity account.

 
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Anyone going to grab any CCL after dropping about 15% so far?
This is the only one on my watch list to eventually buy in. Just waiting for the Re-test...patiently. They have a rock solid balance sheet.

CCL has the best balance sheet of the cruise lines and I don't think it will go out of business.  Also, Congress can always act to support cruise lines if things get worse.
Exactamundo my friend. 

Aren't most of the cruise lines NOT based in the United States (eg Carnival incorporated in Panama, Royal Carribean in Liberia, etc)? They did this specifically to avoid taxes in the US and shouldn't be subject to US taxpayer bailouts, IMO.
With all due respect.....there are hundreds of thousands of American jobs on the line in the cruise business which was a thriving industry. This posturing on the bail out for them....absolutely ludicrous. Horse S### mentality by some (including the POTUS) pulling the not US based card. These are all US citizens financial livelihoods on the lines here. Massive job losses.....MASSIVE.

IT IS ABOUT HELPING AMERICAN WORKERS. Screw the “where is the company based” BS. No time for that in times like this. Look at the bigger picture. 

And all the bailout money will be repaid by these companies. They are loans. Not handouts. 

Every freaking penny of TARP was paid back plus interest. The taxpayers are not paying for Airlines/Boeing/Crusiline loans. They are paying them back folks. It is called bridge financing to get them through this.

Can’t stand when people and politicians use the word “bailout of Wall Street”. from back in 2008. WTF are you talking about. All paid back with interest. Such H**** S*** politics BS.

 
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I've been eyeing Texas Roadhouse hard. Well run company, solid leadership team, well known as a great place to work. Been on my watch list for half a year. Might have missed the bottom, but it might retest soon. Just looking for the right cash to put in at the right time. 
Texas Roadhouse CEO foregoes salary for 1 year to pay workers

Texas Roadhouse sells ready-to-grill steaks amid coronavirus closures

Texas Roadhouse halts dividend payouts

TXRH is my favorite restaurant stock, but with potential months or year long closures, I'm going to have to stay on the sidelines.

I like what they are doing PR wise with the virus and their take-out was already my favorite before the virus. They do it really well and I think I'd trust those employees handling my food more than most. I'm just too skittish to invest in that industry right now. I do like JACK and CMG, as they are also pros at food pickup and it made up a huge portion of their business pre-virus. I got JACK at 24 and 29 and despite the losses today, I will buy more if it gets back down to the mid-20s

 
This is the only one on my watch list to eventually buy in. Just waiting for the Re-test...patiently. They have a rock solid balance sheet.

Exactamundo my friend. 

With all due respect.....there are hundreds of thousands of American jobs on the line in the cruise business which was a thriving industry. This posturing on the bail out for them....absolutely ludicrous. Horse S### mentality by some pulling the not US base card. These are all US citizens finical livelihoods on the lines.

IT IS ABOUT HELPING AMERICAN WORKERS. Screw the “where is the company based” BS. No time for that in times like this. Look at the bigger picture. 

And all the bailout money will be repaid by these companies. They are loans. Not handouts. 

Every freaking penny of TARP was paid back plus interest. The taxpayers are not paying for Airlines/Boeing/Crusiline loans. They are paying them back folks. It called bridge financing to get them through this.
Agreed about their employees, but if they want the government teat, they need to be on that government's tax rolls.

 
Agreed about their employees, but if they want the government teat, they need to be on that government's tax rolls.
That is not the time for them to haggle over.

We are not in a time to start holding the three major cruse lines over the coals right now. Otherwise......massive job losses will ensue and we will have much bigger problems. 

Again......our tax dollars are not going to finance these “bridge loans” to these companies. We will be paid back plus interest. No lose for taxpayers. And no lose for the hundreds of thousands of cruise industry jobs and livelihoods at stake here.

This is no time to politic. This is about swift action to save jobs.

 
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Thesis (not my own)*:

Oil inventories are exploding daily. Land-based storage is filling if not already full. Off shore tankers are needed in a big way and are charging insane premiums to store the surplus.

Heres a June 2019 list of largest publicly traded tanker companies.

TK
FRO
TNP
NAT
SFL
DHT

* Transcript  that details the thesis:


 
Transcript: Opportunity in the COVID Crude Oil Contango Featuring: Harris Kupperman

Published Date: March 26 , 2020
Length: 00:16:57
Synopsis: What happens to the economics of oil when the global economy shuts down because of coronavirus? Harris Kupperman, CIO and president of Praetorian Capital, breaks down the chaos coronavirus has inserted into global oil markets and provides investors with an investment thesis based on the opportunity that chaos has created. In the context of the global shutdown, Kupperman reveals how the combination of the current oil futures contango, all- time highs in tanker charter rates, and the dearth of crude oil storage could lead to never-before-seen revenues and profits for the tanking companies. He walks viewers through the numbers, explains the underpinning economics of the oil markets, and provides time horizons and potential profit multiples for those looking to find opportunity through uncertain times. 
 
 The Expert View: Opportunity in the COVID Crude Oil Contango

 DREW BESSETTE: What is happening in oil markets right now? Amid the coronavirus outbreak, some of the largest countries in the world have shut down. On top of that, the Saudis started a price war earlier this month. But where there's chaos, there's opportunity. Harris Kupperman, the president of Praetorian Capital, joins Real Vision to share his idea on how an unprecedented supply shock could present an incredible opportunity for investors. He runs down the numbers, walks through the logic, and provides what could potentially be an incredibly profitable trade. Without further ado, here he is. Enjoy.

HARRIS KUPPERMAN: Hi, everybody. My name's Harris Kupperman. Everyone calls me Kuppy. I am the CIO and president of Praetorian Capital. I also run a blog at Adventures in Capitalism. And we look for asymmetric opportunities where we're investing in something that's undergoing an inflection.
How is COVID-19 impacting oil supply?

Well, there's too much of it. That's the problem. If you haven't been paying attention, I mean, look out my window. I live on a busy street. There's no cars going by. My dad's scared to go to the golf club because of the virus. There's no airplanes going by. No one really knows how bad it's going to get, but every hour we hear of another state telling people to stay indoors and do nothing.

If you look at what the Chinese did, they had a partial shutdown of their economy and they had a 25% drop in total oil demand. Oil demand being about 100 million barrels a day globally. So if you assume that the rest the OECD does similar to China, I could see us at a 20 million daily surplus of oil. And if you look at how this worked in China, I could see this lasting 50 days, where, basically everyone stays indoors and does nothing, factories stop, nothing happens, and you really have a billion barrels of oil building up.
But then once they turn the switch on, they tell you you're allowed to leave your home, China's two months out of this process. They're not at full capacity yet. I could see us doing another 10 million barrels a day for 100 days. So 150 days, five months, and a billion barrels the first 50 days, a billion barrels the next 100 days, we're talking a two billion barrel surplus. That's a lot of oil, and no one knows where it's going to go.

Where is the excess supply going to end up?

Well, it's going on to tankers. That's obvious. We're going to fill up the land storage the next week or two. There isn't really that much excess land storage globally. And then it's going to go onto, tankers because that's the only place you can put this stuff.

How does storing oil on an oil tanker work?

Let's look at the costs and benefits of storing on a tanker, and let's start with just looking at the crude oil curve, because that's the key determinant of what's going to happen. So if you look at Brent Oil right now, the one year contango, which is the front month-- it's the back 12 month minus front month-- is $11. Okay. Now you take a very large crude carrier of VLC and you put two million barrels, because that's what it can carry, and you get to earn $11. It's risk-free because you are going to sell the future and you're going to buy physical today, and you're going to make $11 off the next one year. Interest costs are basically zero, all the other costs are basically zero, you're going to make $22 million, okay? It's risk-free.

Now the only cost, really, is the tanker. And that $22 million, Vitols and the Glencores of the world, they're going to go out and they're going to charter that tanker. And if you haven't guessed, most of the money is going to go to the tanker owner, because Vitol and Glencore, they're all bidding against each other. It's a pretty liquid, active market. So of that $22, let's say, $20 of it goes the tanker owner. Okay.

And we're not going to worry too much about the Vitols of the world. They're big boys. What they're going to do is they're going to go to the front part of the curve. And if you look at the three-month curve, it's $5 steep, and the six-month curve is $8 steep. They're going to go to the front part of the curve. We're just focused on what the one-year is.

But of that $20 million that goes to a tanker owner, the tanker that would be doing a crude storage, it's an old vessel. It's a 20-year-old vessel. It's probably worth $25 million at most. And you're going to make $20 million on a $25 million investment, but because you're only $5 million above the scrap value, you only really need $5 million of equity to hold onto this thing. So you're making four times your money. And any time you can make four times your money in one year, you're going to do it, and you're going to do it as many times as you possibly can.

So what this is going to do is it's going to take a lot of older vessels out of the existing fleet, because every guy is going to say, I can lock in a one-year, risk-free, four times my money investment? I'm going to do it. How will more tankers going into storage impact tanker charter rates?

The next step is most of the oil fleet globally is used to transport oil, not to store oil. At any one time of the 800 and change tankers of VLCs globally, a few dozen, maybe, are in storage at most. Most of them are transporting oil. But as you start taking a few a day out of the global fleet to store oil because the contango is so steep, where it's going to do it it's going to push up the charter rates of the vessels that are moving oil around. Because you only have so many vessels, and oil stuck in the Arabian Gulf isn't worth much. You can't turn it into dollars and you need to send it to a country that needs it to turn it into dollars.

So right now, let's do some quick math, okay? Ignore what tankers are earning right now. They are earning $300,000 a day, which is crazy. That's higher than the all-time high. That's a few times the all-time high, minus a few spikes over the last 10 years. But let's just assume it earns $100,000 a day, which is one third of what it's earning today. And mind you, this time last year it was earning about $25,000.

Let's say it's earning $100,000 a day. That means it earns $30 million after expenses for the year. Okay, that tanker is a 10-year-old tanker on average. It's worth about $50 million, and you need about $20 million of equity to hold onto it. That means you make 150% of your equity each year. Now remember, the current rates are $200,000 to $300,000. Let's do the $200,000 number. That means you get $65 million on $20 million of equity. That means somewhere between current rates and half of current rates, you're going to make between one and a half and three times your money this year, owning a tanker. Those returns on capital are unheard of in this industry.

Is this priced in?

Of course not. We're right now having the steepest market collapse in 100 years. Everyone's panic selling. These things are in indexes that are panic selling. This guy's just getting liquidated. It's not priced in. What's the crazy part is that you can actually buy a lot of these tanker companies at half of net asset value. So when you think about that, on stated equity, you're earning between one and a half and three times your money. Now if you could buy it at half of that asset value, you're making somewhere between three and six times your money. And this is almost guaranteed, locked-in, risk-free stuff.

Now the question is, how long it's going to last for? Why can't it last a year or two? When you start thinking this all through, if you're going to put two billion barrels on vessels, you're going to have two billion of surplus and probably a billion and change that sits on vessels, and then the world goes back to normal a year from today and you start running at a five million a day deficit, so it took you 400 days to work through those two billion barrels and get back to a normal level of OECD inventory.
So you might be looking at two years, maybe even three years. So why can't you make 10 times your money on this investment?

Can the Saudis' new oil war impact your thesis?

Well, this is beyond the Saudis, okay? Tanker rates started spiking when the Saudis lifted every vessel globally and tried to flood the market with oil. That was last week's news. This week's news-- and mind you, they were adding two million barrels and the rest of their friends in OPEC plus were adding maybe another million barrels. So that was three.

This week's news is my governor's told me to stay home and he doesn't know when I can leave my house. Like, it's a different order of scale now. It's 20 million barrels, maybe even more. It's totally different than the Saudis and the Russians. And even if they cut production now, it's just a different order of magnitude because it's on the demand side, not the supply side. I think the Saudis started this process, but it's out of their hands now.

What if quarantines end early?

Are you kidding? Like, what governor is going to go up on TV, say, everyone can leave their home, and then tomorrow someone dies? Like, that's a sure fire way to never get elected to public office again. You might even get sued. You might get arrested. I don't know. No, they're going to keep this going a lot longer than is rational and logical. If you think of governments, they'll take a problem and always make it worse.

I think they will keep this going for a few weeks past the point, when it's obvious that the virus has flared out. And even then, once you're out of your house, how many people are going to leave your house? Think of my poor dad. He's 73, he's scared to go to the golf course. Once they tell him it's okay to go to the golf course, he's still not going to the golf course. So who's going to drive their cars? Who's going to take jets all over the place?

I've canceled all my meetings. All the conferences I normally go to each year, they're all canceled. No one's traveling. This is going to take a long time to build back up. And I think that glut's just going to keep building. And while it's building, they're going to book a few tankers a day every day to store this oil.

What is the earliest you think this global oil demand slowdown ends?

I think that's six months out. I think your 2 billion barrels, and every time they close down another major global city, it's just pushing that timeline out and building up the surplus. When you think of the crude oil curve, you really think it through, the front end of the curve right now is sitting there at 27, but if it's going to cost you a few dollars a month to store oil, at some point that front of the curve just goes to zero.

And meanwhile, the back end of the curve is going get awful steep. Because when you think of what happens when you cut off 10, 20 million barrels, what's 2023 oil look like? Why can't that be 75 or 100? You're going to be steep for longer.

What is the impact of the US saying it will we fill the strategic oil reserve?

Nah, it's going to do nothing. Look, we're the richest nation on earth. Our strategic petroleum reserve, Trump's talking about 75 million barrels. That's about three days of surplus. We have two billion barrels coming at us. It's a rounding error. And the Chinese will fill up their reserve, and the Indians will do the same. It's just not going to move the needle. There's too much oil.
How much can producers cut supply?

Oh, obviously they're going to try to cut supply. But this takes time to cut supply. You don't just flip a switch and you don't produce oil anymore. And remember, a lot of these guys are near bankruptcy. They need the revenue to basically cover their interest expense. So no, they're going to keep flooding the market. They're going to probably keep flooding the market even if they're losing a few dollars a barrel. It's one of these things where it's expensive to cut supply, it takes time. Even then, you have to still run the oil through your systems and everything else.
I'm using this 150-day period where you hit two billion barrels, because just knowing how corporates work, you have a problem, then you wait two months for a board meeting, you don' t decide anything, you have another board meeting in two months and then you panic. So there's this a timeline and a cycle of this process.

And no, I don't think anyone's cutting today. The Saudis have basically told you they'll take it to zero if they have to. Eventually they will cut, and that's why you'll have a deficit in a year or two. But for right now, no, I think 150 days, two billion barrels is the part you need to focus on. If we're still doing a surplus after that, then who knows how big the surplus could get?

 How does this compare to oil shocks in the past?

So there's been lots of shocks in the past. When you think of oil itself, when you're more than a few hundred thousand barrels on either side of equilibrium, you get wild moves in the price of oil. But let's ignore oil and let's just think of tankers. Every once in a while there's a geopolitical event and demand for tankers changes. Whether it was Egypt closing the canal when they had the revolution, or whether it was Trump sanctioning Costco in Iran, and you had these spikes, but they tend to be short lived. So you have a quick move up to 100,00, 200,000, and then it backs off fast.

This is different. This is going to stay elevated for a very long period of time, because the contango is 11 and I can't see how it doesn't stay 11, give or take, or get wider. And if it gets wider, you actually can earn more storing crude, that's just getting more vessels off the fleets to store oil, which then takes all the residual vessels and push their charter rates higher. The longer this goes on, the bigger the surplus is, the more money you're going to make and the longer it's going to go on for.
How do you play this thesis?

Well, I would say you want to buy tanker stocks. I don't want to get fancy with options. I don't want to think of anything else but tankers. I think you're best off buying yourself a diversified basket of tankers. I don't think you ever want to be making a bet, do I want to own this management team or that management team, this balance sheet or that balance sheet, this fleet configuration or that fleet configuration. I think you want to have a wide basket of these and bet on tankers.

There's some that I'm super excited about. But I don't think this is the right program to talk about individual names. I would just say that you should have a basket.
How will US shale oil producers be impacted?

No, no. I think it's actually going to work a lot like US agriculture, where we produce a lot more than our country needs. We subsidize them dramatically and then we export it. The greatest thing could ever happen is if Trump subsidizes everyone to keep producing oil at a loss, and we just keep producing more surplus. And no one loses their job.
We can print money in America-- we can print dollars that you need for the equipment. Other countries like Nigeria can't print dollars. Eventually they shut off before we do, and we end up just gaining market share. But that's a long process. They'll send my tankers to Pluto.

What are the most important takeaways for viewers?

Yeah. I just want to be clear. It might not be two billion barrels, it might end up being one billion barrels, it might be more. I think these are very fluid numbers, and you shouldn't anchor yourself too deeply on, is it to exactly on the nose at 1.6? The key thing is we're going to overwhelm land storage. And that's the point I want to make.

And then when it comes to tankers, are they all 10 baggers? I don't know, but if you get a triple, is that bad? I don't think you're going to lose much money.

So I just want to make that clear to people watching this. I sometimes speak in hyperbole. But something big is happening. No one's paying attention. The share prices haven't moved. And I really do think people should pay attention.

The big thing to keep in mind is that land storage is filling up. They're going to fill up ocean storage next. And they're going to run out of both, at the rate they're going. And it's going to push tanker prices sky high because it's going to absorb supply at a time when tanker rates are already at multi-year highs. Year over year we've been $10,000, $20,000 above last year's rates all year, even before the virus hit. So it's a strong market to begin with, and it's just going to keep getting stronger.

 
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NajehHejan said:
Jumped into BRZU at 1.63 - trying to get a quick 10% then jump out. Pure gamble - I could lose all my money.
Good luck. This is the first I’ve heard of that ETF. Any thoughts as to why it is down 95% in the past year? Is it oil? COVID-19? The chart looks crazy.

 
That is not the time for them to haggle over.

We are not in a time to start holding the three major cruse lines over the coals right now. Otherwise......massive job losses will ensue and we will have much bigger problems. 

Again......our tax dollars are not going to finance these “bridge loans” to these companies. We will be paid back plus interest. No lose for taxpayers. And no lie for the hundreds of thousands of cruise industry jobs and livelihoods at stake here.

This is no time to politic. This is about swift action to save jobs.
The thing is, I don't believe the cruise lines employ that many Americans. Most of the labor on those ships is cheap and foreign. Though your point of a loan rings true, and it gets paid back, that's great and I support that.

 
Texas Roadhouse CEO foregoes salary for 1 year to pay workers

Texas Roadhouse sells ready-to-grill steaks amid coronavirus closures

Texas Roadhouse halts dividend payouts

TXRH is my favorite restaurant stock, but with potential months or year long closures, I'm going to have to stay on the sidelines.

I like what they are doing PR wise with the virus and their take-out was already my favorite before the virus. They do it really well and I think I'd trust those employees handling my food more than most. I'm just too skittish to invest in that industry right now. I do like JACK and CMG, as they are also pros at food pickup and it made up a huge portion of their business pre-virus. I got JACK at 24 and 29 and despite the losses today, I will buy more if it gets back down to the mid-20s
We also love Texas Roadhouse. Always great food and always amazing service. We are ordering take from them tonight!!!

 
The thing is, I don't believe the cruise lines employ that many Americans. Most of the labor on those ships is cheap and foreign. Though your point of a loan rings true, and it gets paid back, that's great and I support that.
421,000 Americans.  Not that many?

 
The thing is, I don't believe the cruise lines employ that many Americans. Most of the labor on those ships is cheap and foreign. Though your point of a loan rings true, and it gets paid back, that's great and I support that.
Actually all the dock workers, ticketing agents, all the home office jobs, tons of US citizens work for the cruise industry. And half the employees on the ships do live on US soil. A lot in fact. But I can understand thinking they do not. 

But.....let’s hope this politicking grand standing get’s quashed. And peoples jobs can be saved.

 
Thesis (not my own)*:

Oil inventories are exploding daily. Land-based storage is filling if not already full. Off shore tankers are needed in a big way and are charging insane premiums to store the surplus.

Heres a June 2019 list of largest publicly traded tanker companies.

TK
FRO
TNP
NAT
SFL
DHT

* Transcript  that details the thesis:


  Reveal hidden contents
Transcript:
good info. 

 
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Also, for those willing to go a bit outside the norm - things are shaping up really well for Tankers - I've got a fairly major position going. Light reading here for those interested: https://adventuresincapitalism.com/2020/03/19/crude-contango/
Want to thank you for this, been reading up on oil tankers and also started a position earlier this week. I find myself looking at the VLCC spot rates and Brent futures more than the markets when I wake up here in Hawaii.

 
This is the only one on my watch list to eventually buy in. Just waiting for the Re-test...patiently. They have a rock solid balance sheet.

Exactamundo my friend. 

With all due respect.....there are hundreds of thousands of American jobs on the line in the cruise business which was a thriving industry. This posturing on the bail out for them....absolutely ludicrous. Horse S### mentality by some (including the POTUS) pulling the not US based card. These are all US citizens financial livelihoods on the lines here. Massive job losses.....MASSIVE.

IT IS ABOUT HELPING AMERICAN WORKERS. Screw the “where is the company based” BS. No time for that in times like this. Look at the bigger picture. 

And all the bailout money will be repaid by these companies. They are loans. Not handouts. 

Every freaking penny of TARP was paid back plus interest. The taxpayers are not paying for Airlines/Boeing/Crusiline loans. They are paying them back folks. It is called bridge financing to get them through this.

Can’t stand when people and politicians use the word “bailout of Wall Street”. from back in 2008. WTF are you talking about. All paid back with interest. Such H**** S*** politics BS.
Curious.  Do you know what the interest rate we'll be paid back at?

 
Thesis (not my own)*:

Oil inventories are exploding daily. Land-based storage is filling if not already full. Off shore tankers are needed in a big way and are charging insane premiums to store the surplus.

Heres a June 2019 list of largest publicly traded tanker companies.

TK
FRO
TNP
NAT
SFL
DHT

* Transcript  that details the thesis:


  Reveal hidden contents
Transcript: Opportunity in the COVID Crude Oil Contango Featuring: Harris Kupperman

Published Date: March 26 , 2020
Length: 00:16:57
Synopsis: What happens to the economics of oil when the global economy shuts down because of coronavirus? Harris Kupperman, CIO and president of Praetorian Capital, breaks down the chaos coronavirus has inserted into global oil markets and provides investors with an investment thesis based on the opportunity that chaos has created. In the context of the global shutdown, Kupperman reveals how the combination of the current oil futures contango, all- time highs in tanker charter rates, and the dearth of crude oil storage could lead to never-before-seen revenues and profits for the tanking companies. He walks viewers through the numbers, explains the underpinning economics of the oil markets, and provides time horizons and potential profit multiples for those looking to find opportunity through uncertain times. 
 
 The Expert View: Opportunity in the COVID Crude Oil Contango

 DREW BESSETTE: What is happening in oil markets right now? Amid the coronavirus outbreak, some of the largest countries in the world have shut down. On top of that, the Saudis started a price war earlier this month. But where there's chaos, there's opportunity. Harris Kupperman, the president of Praetorian Capital, joins Real Vision to share his idea on how an unprecedented supply shock could present an incredible opportunity for investors. He runs down the numbers, walks through the logic, and provides what could potentially be an incredibly profitable trade. Without further ado, here he is. Enjoy.

HARRIS KUPPERMAN: Hi, everybody. My name's Harris Kupperman. Everyone calls me Kuppy. I am the CIO and president of Praetorian Capital. I also run a blog at Adventures in Capitalism. And we look for asymmetric opportunities where we're investing in something that's undergoing an inflection.
How is COVID-19 impacting oil supply?

Well, there's too much of it. That's the problem. If you haven't been paying attention, I mean, look out my window. I live on a busy street. There's no cars going by. My dad's scared to go to the golf club because of the virus. There's no airplanes going by. No one really knows how bad it's going to get, but every hour we hear of another state telling people to stay indoors and do nothing.

If you look at what the Chinese did, they had a partial shutdown of their economy and they had a 25% drop in total oil demand. Oil demand being about 100 million barrels a day globally. So if you assume that the rest the OECD does similar to China, I could see us at a 20 million daily surplus of oil. And if you look at how this worked in China, I could see this lasting 50 days, where, basically everyone stays indoors and does nothing, factories stop, nothing happens, and you really have a billion barrels of oil building up.
But then once they turn the switch on, they tell you you're allowed to leave your home, China's two months out of this process. They're not at full capacity yet. I could see us doing another 10 million barrels a day for 100 days. So 150 days, five months, and a billion barrels the first 50 days, a billion barrels the next 100 days, we're talking a two billion barrel surplus. That's a lot of oil, and no one knows where it's going to go.

Where is the excess supply going to end up?

Well, it's going on to tankers. That's obvious. We're going to fill up the land storage the next week or two. There isn't really that much excess land storage globally. And then it's going to go onto, tankers because that's the only place you can put this stuff.

How does storing oil on an oil tanker work?

Let's look at the costs and benefits of storing on a tanker, and let's start with just looking at the crude oil curve, because that's the key determinant of what's going to happen. So if you look at Brent Oil right now, the one year contango, which is the front month-- it's the back 12 month minus front month-- is $11. Okay. Now you take a very large crude carrier of VLC and you put two million barrels, because that's what it can carry, and you get to earn $11. It's risk-free because you are going to sell the future and you're going to buy physical today, and you're going to make $11 off the next one year. Interest costs are basically zero, all the other costs are basically zero, you're going to make $22 million, okay? It's risk-free.

Now the only cost, really, is the tanker. And that $22 million, Vitols and the Glencores of the world, they're going to go out and they're going to charter that tanker. And if you haven't guessed, most of the money is going to go to the tanker owner, because Vitol and Glencore, they're all bidding against each other. It's a pretty liquid, active market. So of that $22, let's say, $20 of it goes the tanker owner. Okay.

And we're not going to worry too much about the Vitols of the world. They're big boys. What they're going to do is they're going to go to the front part of the curve. And if you look at the three-month curve, it's $5 steep, and the six-month curve is $8 steep. They're going to go to the front part of the curve. We're just focused on what the one-year is.

But of that $20 million that goes to a tanker owner, the tanker that would be doing a crude storage, it's an old vessel. It's a 20-year-old vessel. It's probably worth $25 million at most. And you're going to make $20 million on a $25 million investment, but because you're only $5 million above the scrap value, you only really need $5 million of equity to hold onto this thing. So you're making four times your money. And any time you can make four times your money in one year, you're going to do it, and you're going to do it as many times as you possibly can.

So what this is going to do is it's going to take a lot of older vessels out of the existing fleet, because every guy is going to say, I can lock in a one-year, risk-free, four times my money investment? I'm going to do it. How will more tankers going into storage impact tanker charter rates?

The next step is most of the oil fleet globally is used to transport oil, not to store oil. At any one time of the 800 and change tankers of VLCs globally, a few dozen, maybe, are in storage at most. Most of them are transporting oil. But as you start taking a few a day out of the global fleet to store oil because the contango is so steep, where it's going to do it it's going to push up the charter rates of the vessels that are moving oil around. Because you only have so many vessels, and oil stuck in the Arabian Gulf isn't worth much. You can't turn it into dollars and you need to send it to a country that needs it to turn it into dollars.

So right now, let's do some quick math, okay? Ignore what tankers are earning right now. They are earning $300,000 a day, which is crazy. That's higher than the all-time high. That's a few times the all-time high, minus a few spikes over the last 10 years. But let's just assume it earns $100,000 a day, which is one third of what it's earning today. And mind you, this time last year it was earning about $25,000.

Let's say it's earning $100,000 a day. That means it earns $30 million after expenses for the year. Okay, that tanker is a 10-year-old tanker on average. It's worth about $50 million, and you need about $20 million of equity to hold onto it. That means you make 150% of your equity each year. Now remember, the current rates are $200,000 to $300,000. Let's do the $200,000 number. That means you get $65 million on $20 million of equity. That means somewhere between current rates and half of current rates, you're going to make between one and a half and three times your money this year, owning a tanker. Those returns on capital are unheard of in this industry.

Is this priced in?

Of course not. We're right now having the steepest market collapse in 100 years. Everyone's panic selling. These things are in indexes that are panic selling. This guy's just getting liquidated. It's not priced in. What's the crazy part is that you can actually buy a lot of these tanker companies at half of net asset value. So when you think about that, on stated equity, you're earning between one and a half and three times your money. Now if you could buy it at half of that asset value, you're making somewhere between three and six times your money. And this is almost guaranteed, locked-in, risk-free stuff.

Now the question is, how long it's going to last for? Why can't it last a year or two? When you start thinking this all through, if you're going to put two billion barrels on vessels, you're going to have two billion of surplus and probably a billion and change that sits on vessels, and then the world goes back to normal a year from today and you start running at a five million a day deficit, so it took you 400 days to work through those two billion barrels and get back to a normal level of OECD inventory.
So you might be looking at two years, maybe even three years. So why can't you make 10 times your money on this investment?

Can the Saudis' new oil war impact your thesis?

Well, this is beyond the Saudis, okay? Tanker rates started spiking when the Saudis lifted every vessel globally and tried to flood the market with oil. That was last week's news. This week's news-- and mind you, they were adding two million barrels and the rest of their friends in OPEC plus were adding maybe another million barrels. So that was three.

This week's news is my governor's told me to stay home and he doesn't know when I can leave my house. Like, it's a different order of scale now. It's 20 million barrels, maybe even more. It's totally different than the Saudis and the Russians. And even if they cut production now, it's just a different order of magnitude because it's on the demand side, not the supply side. I think the Saudis started this process, but it's out of their hands now.

What if quarantines end early?

Are you kidding? Like, what governor is going to go up on TV, say, everyone can leave their home, and then tomorrow someone dies? Like, that's a sure fire way to never get elected to public office again. You might even get sued. You might get arrested. I don't know. No, they're going to keep this going a lot longer than is rational and logical. If you think of governments, they'll take a problem and always make it worse.

I think they will keep this going for a few weeks past the point, when it's obvious that the virus has flared out. And even then, once you're out of your house, how many people are going to leave your house? Think of my poor dad. He's 73, he's scared to go to the golf course. Once they tell him it's okay to go to the golf course, he's still not going to the golf course. So who's going to drive their cars? Who's going to take jets all over the place?

I've canceled all my meetings. All the conferences I normally go to each year, they're all canceled. No one's traveling. This is going to take a long time to build back up. And I think that glut's just going to keep building. And while it's building, they're going to book a few tankers a day every day to store this oil.

What is the earliest you think this global oil demand slowdown ends?

I think that's six months out. I think your 2 billion barrels, and every time they close down another major global city, it's just pushing that timeline out and building up the surplus. When you think of the crude oil curve, you really think it through, the front end of the curve right now is sitting there at 27, but if it's going to cost you a few dollars a month to store oil, at some point that front of the curve just goes to zero.

And meanwhile, the back end of the curve is going get awful steep. Because when you think of what happens when you cut off 10, 20 million barrels, what's 2023 oil look like? Why can't that be 75 or 100? You're going to be steep for longer.

What is the impact of the US saying it will we fill the strategic oil reserve?

Nah, it's going to do nothing. Look, we're the richest nation on earth. Our strategic petroleum reserve, Trump's talking about 75 million barrels. That's about three days of surplus. We have two billion barrels coming at us. It's a rounding error. And the Chinese will fill up their reserve, and the Indians will do the same. It's just not going to move the needle. There's too much oil.
How much can producers cut supply?

Oh, obviously they're going to try to cut supply. But this takes time to cut supply. You don't just flip a switch and you don't produce oil anymore. And remember, a lot of these guys are near bankruptcy. They need the revenue to basically cover their interest expense. So no, they're going to keep flooding the market. They're going to probably keep flooding the market even if they're losing a few dollars a barrel. It's one of these things where it's expensive to cut supply, it takes time. Even then, you have to still run the oil through your systems and everything else.
I'm using this 150-day period where you hit two billion barrels, because just knowing how corporates work, you have a problem, then you wait two months for a board meeting, you don' t decide anything, you have another board meeting in two months and then you panic. So there's this a timeline and a cycle of this process.

And no, I don't think anyone's cutting today. The Saudis have basically told you they'll take it to zero if they have to. Eventually they will cut, and that's why you'll have a deficit in a year or two. But for right now, no, I think 150 days, two billion barrels is the part you need to focus on. If we're still doing a surplus after that, then who knows how big the surplus could get?

 How does this compare to oil shocks in the past?

So there's been lots of shocks in the past. When you think of oil itself, when you're more than a few hundred thousand barrels on either side of equilibrium, you get wild moves in the price of oil. But let's ignore oil and let's just think of tankers. Every once in a while there's a geopolitical event and demand for tankers changes. Whether it was Egypt closing the canal when they had the revolution, or whether it was Trump sanctioning Costco in Iran, and you had these spikes, but they tend to be short lived. So you have a quick move up to 100,00, 200,000, and then it backs off fast.

This is different. This is going to stay elevated for a very long period of time, because the contango is 11 and I can't see how it doesn't stay 11, give or take, or get wider. And if it gets wider, you actually can earn more storing crude, that's just getting more vessels off the fleets to store oil, which then takes all the residual vessels and push their charter rates higher. The longer this goes on, the bigger the surplus is, the more money you're going to make and the longer it's going to go on for.
How do you play this thesis?

Well, I would say you want to buy tanker stocks. I don't want to get fancy with options. I don't want to think of anything else but tankers. I think you're best off buying yourself a diversified basket of tankers. I don't think you ever want to be making a bet, do I want to own this management team or that management team, this balance sheet or that balance sheet, this fleet configuration or that fleet configuration. I think you want to have a wide basket of these and bet on tankers.

There's some that I'm super excited about. But I don't think this is the right program to talk about individual names. I would just say that you should have a basket.
How will US shale oil producers be impacted?

No, no. I think it's actually going to work a lot like US agriculture, where we produce a lot more than our country needs. We subsidize them dramatically and then we export it. The greatest thing could ever happen is if Trump subsidizes everyone to keep producing oil at a loss, and we just keep producing more surplus. And no one loses their job.
We can print money in America-- we can print dollars that you need for the equipment. Other countries like Nigeria can't print dollars. Eventually they shut off before we do, and we end up just gaining market share. But that's a long process. They'll send my tankers to Pluto.

What are the most important takeaways for viewers?

Yeah. I just want to be clear. It might not be two billion barrels, it might end up being one billion barrels, it might be more. I think these are very fluid numbers, and you shouldn't anchor yourself too deeply on, is it to exactly on the nose at 1.6? The key thing is we're going to overwhelm land storage. And that's the point I want to make.

And then when it comes to tankers, are they all 10 baggers? I don't know, but if you get a triple, is that bad? I don't think you're going to lose much money.

So I just want to make that clear to people watching this. I sometimes speak in hyperbole. But something big is happening. No one's paying attention. The share prices haven't moved. And I really do think people should pay attention.

The big thing to keep in mind is that land storage is filling up. They're going to fill up ocean storage next. And they're going to run out of both, at the rate they're going. And it's going to push tanker prices sky high because it's going to absorb supply at a time when tanker rates are already at multi-year highs. Year over year we've been $10,000, $20,000 above last year's rates all year, even before the virus hit. So it's a strong market to begin with, and it's just going to keep getting stronger.
I think I prefer FRO. Will buy a small position and wait/hope for a 20% drop to load up

 
I see a lot more pain ahead in the cruise industries. If we take the thought process that we'll have a resurgence of this in the fall, it'll def hit a cruise ship again (prob multiple cruise ships)... Beyond the fact that they'll already be seeing reduced demand (I wouldn't go on one for free, personally), once we get that resurgent outbreak in the fall, they'll be back on life support. 2-3 years before demand returns to anything even remotely close to what we saw just 3 months ago, they're going to need a lot of cash!!

 
Good luck. This is the first I’ve heard of that ETF. Any thoughts as to why it is down 95% in the past year? Is it oil? COVID-19? The chart looks crazy.
It is a 3x leveraged ETF tied to the Brazilian stock market. In my opinion, it should be down 60-70%, not 95%. No one wants to hold it long term so I wonder if people are in panic and just sold en masse. My big concern is that ther e is enough liquidity in the ETF to keep it moving. These things can close at the drop of a hat and you lose everything. I think there are enough big lotto players out there to keep it moving though. I'm going to continue to try to net quick  5-10% gains over time

 
RE: The cruise lines

ive been all over the cruise lines the last week and a half.  The bounce back of CCL from 8 to 19 had very little to do with “a bailout”.  Fact if the matter is neither CCL or RCL will need one, NCL I’m unsure of.  CCL had roughly 500M in cash on hand and they just added 3B of cash from a credit facility.  RCL was able to get 2.3B.

Long story short CCL can fund it’s liabilities through Q1 of next year without a single dollar coming in.  They don’t need a bailout.   They don’t need a equity raise.   Also - It’s not completely out of consideration that the “new operational normal” will be up and running by August, which means cash coming in (the two thanksgiving week cruises out of FLL on princess are still close to sold out and very expensive).

the cruise lines were never getting bailed out.  People in the know were well aware of this going back a few weeks.  As a result They have taken actions to secure huge amounts of cash to get through this.

the selloff today is completely unrelated.  It’s uninformed journalists making up stuff to write about the price drop.

 
I just picked up MGM for my own account today @ 12.24 

This will be a triple long term. No doubt.
Tripple may be pushing it but I think a double is a more than fair wager.  $24 puts it back to a ~2004 price.  $36 is more of a recent price (other than back in 2008) level.  Either way I like it - really is a good call.

I Feel the same way about Carnival.  Easy easy double might be 2-3x

 
covered my short, just 200 points, can’t decide if we’re gonna sell the news like I originally thought, dragged out longer than anticipated. Don’t feel like holding anything into the weekend either.

 
Thesis (not my own)*:

Oil inventories are exploding daily. Land-based storage is filling if not already full. Off shore tankers are needed in a big way and are charging insane premiums to store the surplus.

Heres a June 2019 list of largest publicly traded tanker companies.

TK
FRO
TNP
NAT
SFL
DHT

* Transcript  that details the thesis:


  Reveal hidden contents
Transcript: Opportunity in the COVID Crude Oil Contango Featuring: Harris Kupperman

Published Date: March 26 , 2020
Length: 00:16:57
Synopsis: What happens to the economics of oil when the global economy shuts down because of coronavirus? Harris Kupperman, CIO and president of Praetorian Capital, breaks down the chaos coronavirus has inserted into global oil markets and provides investors with an investment thesis based on the opportunity that chaos has created. In the context of the global shutdown, Kupperman reveals how the combination of the current oil futures contango, all- time highs in tanker charter rates, and the dearth of crude oil storage could lead to never-before-seen revenues and profits for the tanking companies. He walks viewers through the numbers, explains the underpinning economics of the oil markets, and provides time horizons and potential profit multiples for those looking to find opportunity through uncertain times. 
 
 The Expert View: Opportunity in the COVID Crude Oil Contango

 DREW BESSETTE: What is happening in oil markets right now? Amid the coronavirus outbreak, some of the largest countries in the world have shut down. On top of that, the Saudis started a price war earlier this month. But where there's chaos, there's opportunity. Harris Kupperman, the president of Praetorian Capital, joins Real Vision to share his idea on how an unprecedented supply shock could present an incredible opportunity for investors. He runs down the numbers, walks through the logic, and provides what could potentially be an incredibly profitable trade. Without further ado, here he is. Enjoy.

HARRIS KUPPERMAN: Hi, everybody. My name's Harris Kupperman. Everyone calls me Kuppy. I am the CIO and president of Praetorian Capital. I also run a blog at Adventures in Capitalism. And we look for asymmetric opportunities where we're investing in something that's undergoing an inflection.
How is COVID-19 impacting oil supply?

Well, there's too much of it. That's the problem. If you haven't been paying attention, I mean, look out my window. I live on a busy street. There's no cars going by. My dad's scared to go to the golf club because of the virus. There's no airplanes going by. No one really knows how bad it's going to get, but every hour we hear of another state telling people to stay indoors and do nothing.

If you look at what the Chinese did, they had a partial shutdown of their economy and they had a 25% drop in total oil demand. Oil demand being about 100 million barrels a day globally. So if you assume that the rest the OECD does similar to China, I could see us at a 20 million daily surplus of oil. And if you look at how this worked in China, I could see this lasting 50 days, where, basically everyone stays indoors and does nothing, factories stop, nothing happens, and you really have a billion barrels of oil building up.
But then once they turn the switch on, they tell you you're allowed to leave your home, China's two months out of this process. They're not at full capacity yet. I could see us doing another 10 million barrels a day for 100 days. So 150 days, five months, and a billion barrels the first 50 days, a billion barrels the next 100 days, we're talking a two billion barrel surplus. That's a lot of oil, and no one knows where it's going to go.

Where is the excess supply going to end up?

Well, it's going on to tankers. That's obvious. We're going to fill up the land storage the next week or two. There isn't really that much excess land storage globally. And then it's going to go onto, tankers because that's the only place you can put this stuff.

How does storing oil on an oil tanker work?

Let's look at the costs and benefits of storing on a tanker, and let's start with just looking at the crude oil curve, because that's the key determinant of what's going to happen. So if you look at Brent Oil right now, the one year contango, which is the front month-- it's the back 12 month minus front month-- is $11. Okay. Now you take a very large crude carrier of VLC and you put two million barrels, because that's what it can carry, and you get to earn $11. It's risk-free because you are going to sell the future and you're going to buy physical today, and you're going to make $11 off the next one year. Interest costs are basically zero, all the other costs are basically zero, you're going to make $22 million, okay? It's risk-free.

Now the only cost, really, is the tanker. And that $22 million, Vitols and the Glencores of the world, they're going to go out and they're going to charter that tanker. And if you haven't guessed, most of the money is going to go to the tanker owner, because Vitol and Glencore, they're all bidding against each other. It's a pretty liquid, active market. So of that $22, let's say, $20 of it goes the tanker owner. Okay.

And we're not going to worry too much about the Vitols of the world. They're big boys. What they're going to do is they're going to go to the front part of the curve. And if you look at the three-month curve, it's $5 steep, and the six-month curve is $8 steep. They're going to go to the front part of the curve. We're just focused on what the one-year is.

But of that $20 million that goes to a tanker owner, the tanker that would be doing a crude storage, it's an old vessel. It's a 20-year-old vessel. It's probably worth $25 million at most. And you're going to make $20 million on a $25 million investment, but because you're only $5 million above the scrap value, you only really need $5 million of equity to hold onto this thing. So you're making four times your money. And any time you can make four times your money in one year, you're going to do it, and you're going to do it as many times as you possibly can.

So what this is going to do is it's going to take a lot of older vessels out of the existing fleet, because every guy is going to say, I can lock in a one-year, risk-free, four times my money investment? I'm going to do it. How will more tankers going into storage impact tanker charter rates?

The next step is most of the oil fleet globally is used to transport oil, not to store oil. At any one time of the 800 and change tankers of VLCs globally, a few dozen, maybe, are in storage at most. Most of them are transporting oil. But as you start taking a few a day out of the global fleet to store oil because the contango is so steep, where it's going to do it it's going to push up the charter rates of the vessels that are moving oil around. Because you only have so many vessels, and oil stuck in the Arabian Gulf isn't worth much. You can't turn it into dollars and you need to send it to a country that needs it to turn it into dollars.

So right now, let's do some quick math, okay? Ignore what tankers are earning right now. They are earning $300,000 a day, which is crazy. That's higher than the all-time high. That's a few times the all-time high, minus a few spikes over the last 10 years. But let's just assume it earns $100,000 a day, which is one third of what it's earning today. And mind you, this time last year it was earning about $25,000.

Let's say it's earning $100,000 a day. That means it earns $30 million after expenses for the year. Okay, that tanker is a 10-year-old tanker on average. It's worth about $50 million, and you need about $20 million of equity to hold onto it. That means you make 150% of your equity each year. Now remember, the current rates are $200,000 to $300,000. Let's do the $200,000 number. That means you get $65 million on $20 million of equity. That means somewhere between current rates and half of current rates, you're going to make between one and a half and three times your money this year, owning a tanker. Those returns on capital are unheard of in this industry.

Is this priced in?

Of course not. We're right now having the steepest market collapse in 100 years. Everyone's panic selling. These things are in indexes that are panic selling. This guy's just getting liquidated. It's not priced in. What's the crazy part is that you can actually buy a lot of these tanker companies at half of net asset value. So when you think about that, on stated equity, you're earning between one and a half and three times your money. Now if you could buy it at half of that asset value, you're making somewhere between three and six times your money. And this is almost guaranteed, locked-in, risk-free stuff.

Now the question is, how long it's going to last for? Why can't it last a year or two? When you start thinking this all through, if you're going to put two billion barrels on vessels, you're going to have two billion of surplus and probably a billion and change that sits on vessels, and then the world goes back to normal a year from today and you start running at a five million a day deficit, so it took you 400 days to work through those two billion barrels and get back to a normal level of OECD inventory.
So you might be looking at two years, maybe even three years. So why can't you make 10 times your money on this investment?

Can the Saudis' new oil war impact your thesis?

Well, this is beyond the Saudis, okay? Tanker rates started spiking when the Saudis lifted every vessel globally and tried to flood the market with oil. That was last week's news. This week's news-- and mind you, they were adding two million barrels and the rest of their friends in OPEC plus were adding maybe another million barrels. So that was three.

This week's news is my governor's told me to stay home and he doesn't know when I can leave my house. Like, it's a different order of scale now. It's 20 million barrels, maybe even more. It's totally different than the Saudis and the Russians. And even if they cut production now, it's just a different order of magnitude because it's on the demand side, not the supply side. I think the Saudis started this process, but it's out of their hands now.

What if quarantines end early?

Are you kidding? Like, what governor is going to go up on TV, say, everyone can leave their home, and then tomorrow someone dies? Like, that's a sure fire way to never get elected to public office again. You might even get sued. You might get arrested. I don't know. No, they're going to keep this going a lot longer than is rational and logical. If you think of governments, they'll take a problem and always make it worse.

I think they will keep this going for a few weeks past the point, when it's obvious that the virus has flared out. And even then, once you're out of your house, how many people are going to leave your house? Think of my poor dad. He's 73, he's scared to go to the golf course. Once they tell him it's okay to go to the golf course, he's still not going to the golf course. So who's going to drive their cars? Who's going to take jets all over the place?

I've canceled all my meetings. All the conferences I normally go to each year, they're all canceled. No one's traveling. This is going to take a long time to build back up. And I think that glut's just going to keep building. And while it's building, they're going to book a few tankers a day every day to store this oil.

What is the earliest you think this global oil demand slowdown ends?

I think that's six months out. I think your 2 billion barrels, and every time they close down another major global city, it's just pushing that timeline out and building up the surplus. When you think of the crude oil curve, you really think it through, the front end of the curve right now is sitting there at 27, but if it's going to cost you a few dollars a month to store oil, at some point that front of the curve just goes to zero.

And meanwhile, the back end of the curve is going get awful steep. Because when you think of what happens when you cut off 10, 20 million barrels, what's 2023 oil look like? Why can't that be 75 or 100? You're going to be steep for longer.

What is the impact of the US saying it will we fill the strategic oil reserve?

Nah, it's going to do nothing. Look, we're the richest nation on earth. Our strategic petroleum reserve, Trump's talking about 75 million barrels. That's about three days of surplus. We have two billion barrels coming at us. It's a rounding error. And the Chinese will fill up their reserve, and the Indians will do the same. It's just not going to move the needle. There's too much oil.
How much can producers cut supply?

Oh, obviously they're going to try to cut supply. But this takes time to cut supply. You don't just flip a switch and you don't produce oil anymore. And remember, a lot of these guys are near bankruptcy. They need the revenue to basically cover their interest expense. So no, they're going to keep flooding the market. They're going to probably keep flooding the market even if they're losing a few dollars a barrel. It's one of these things where it's expensive to cut supply, it takes time. Even then, you have to still run the oil through your systems and everything else.
I'm using this 150-day period where you hit two billion barrels, because just knowing how corporates work, you have a problem, then you wait two months for a board meeting, you don' t decide anything, you have another board meeting in two months and then you panic. So there's this a timeline and a cycle of this process.

And no, I don't think anyone's cutting today. The Saudis have basically told you they'll take it to zero if they have to. Eventually they will cut, and that's why you'll have a deficit in a year or two. But for right now, no, I think 150 days, two billion barrels is the part you need to focus on. If we're still doing a surplus after that, then who knows how big the surplus could get?

 How does this compare to oil shocks in the past?

So there's been lots of shocks in the past. When you think of oil itself, when you're more than a few hundred thousand barrels on either side of equilibrium, you get wild moves in the price of oil. But let's ignore oil and let's just think of tankers. Every once in a while there's a geopolitical event and demand for tankers changes. Whether it was Egypt closing the canal when they had the revolution, or whether it was Trump sanctioning Costco in Iran, and you had these spikes, but they tend to be short lived. So you have a quick move up to 100,00, 200,000, and then it backs off fast.

This is different. This is going to stay elevated for a very long period of time, because the contango is 11 and I can't see how it doesn't stay 11, give or take, or get wider. And if it gets wider, you actually can earn more storing crude, that's just getting more vessels off the fleets to store oil, which then takes all the residual vessels and push their charter rates higher. The longer this goes on, the bigger the surplus is, the more money you're going to make and the longer it's going to go on for.
How do you play this thesis?

Well, I would say you want to buy tanker stocks. I don't want to get fancy with options. I don't want to think of anything else but tankers. I think you're best off buying yourself a diversified basket of tankers. I don't think you ever want to be making a bet, do I want to own this management team or that management team, this balance sheet or that balance sheet, this fleet configuration or that fleet configuration. I think you want to have a wide basket of these and bet on tankers.

There's some that I'm super excited about. But I don't think this is the right program to talk about individual names. I would just say that you should have a basket.
How will US shale oil producers be impacted?

No, no. I think it's actually going to work a lot like US agriculture, where we produce a lot more than our country needs. We subsidize them dramatically and then we export it. The greatest thing could ever happen is if Trump subsidizes everyone to keep producing oil at a loss, and we just keep producing more surplus. And no one loses their job.
We can print money in America-- we can print dollars that you need for the equipment. Other countries like Nigeria can't print dollars. Eventually they shut off before we do, and we end up just gaining market share. But that's a long process. They'll send my tankers to Pluto.

What are the most important takeaways for viewers?

Yeah. I just want to be clear. It might not be two billion barrels, it might end up being one billion barrels, it might be more. I think these are very fluid numbers, and you shouldn't anchor yourself too deeply on, is it to exactly on the nose at 1.6? The key thing is we're going to overwhelm land storage. And that's the point I want to make.

And then when it comes to tankers, are they all 10 baggers? I don't know, but if you get a triple, is that bad? I don't think you're going to lose much money.

So I just want to make that clear to people watching this. I sometimes speak in hyperbole. But something big is happening. No one's paying attention. The share prices haven't moved. And I really do think people should pay attention.

The big thing to keep in mind is that land storage is filling up. They're going to fill up ocean storage next. And they're going to run out of both, at the rate they're going. And it's going to push tanker prices sky high because it's going to absorb supply at a time when tanker rates are already at multi-year highs. Year over year we've been $10,000, $20,000 above last year's rates all year, even before the virus hit. So it's a strong market to begin with, and it's just going to keep getting stronger.
Welcome to the party!!  I'd add EURN to your list. I'm up about 30% on my positions since the posts below. 



Also, for those willing to go a bit outside the norm - things are shaping up really well for Tankers - I've got a fairly major position going. Light reading here for those interested: https://adventuresincapitalism.com/2020/03/19/crude-contango/
 

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