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I see a lot more pain ahead in the cruise industries. If we take the thought process that we'll have a resurgence of this in the fall, it'll def hit a cruise ship again (prob multiple cruise ships)... Beyond the fact that they'll already be seeing reduced demand (I wouldn't go on one for free, personally), once we get that resurgent outbreak in the fall, they'll be back on life support. 2-3 years before demand returns to anything even remotely close to what we saw just 3 months ago, they're going to need a lot of cash!!
Same. We've been on three cruises as a family in the last 5 years (Disney, Royal Carribean, Carnival) and had one cancelled this March (Norwegian). We're getting our refund from Norwegian in the next 90 days or so. And definitely, we'll go again as soon as this COVID crap is over with.  

 
Thesis (not my own)*:

Oil inventories are exploding daily. Land-based storage is filling if not already full. Off shore tankers are needed in a big way and are charging insane premiums to store the surplus.

Heres a June 2019 list of largest publicly traded tanker companies.

TK
FRO
TNP
NAT
SFL
DHT

* Transcript  that details the thesis:


  Reveal hidden contents
Transcript: Opportunity in the COVID Crude Oil Contango Featuring: Harris Kupperman

Published Date: March 26 , 2020
Length: 00:16:57
Synopsis: What happens to the economics of oil when the global economy shuts down because of coronavirus? Harris Kupperman, CIO and president of Praetorian Capital, breaks down the chaos coronavirus has inserted into global oil markets and provides investors with an investment thesis based on the opportunity that chaos has created. In the context of the global shutdown, Kupperman reveals how the combination of the current oil futures contango, all- time highs in tanker charter rates, and the dearth of crude oil storage could lead to never-before-seen revenues and profits for the tanking companies. He walks viewers through the numbers, explains the underpinning economics of the oil markets, and provides time horizons and potential profit multiples for those looking to find opportunity through uncertain times. 
 
 The Expert View: Opportunity in the COVID Crude Oil Contango

 DREW BESSETTE: What is happening in oil markets right now? Amid the coronavirus outbreak, some of the largest countries in the world have shut down. On top of that, the Saudis started a price war earlier this month. But where there's chaos, there's opportunity. Harris Kupperman, the president of Praetorian Capital, joins Real Vision to share his idea on how an unprecedented supply shock could present an incredible opportunity for investors. He runs down the numbers, walks through the logic, and provides what could potentially be an incredibly profitable trade. Without further ado, here he is. Enjoy.

HARRIS KUPPERMAN: Hi, everybody. My name's Harris Kupperman. Everyone calls me Kuppy. I am the CIO and president of Praetorian Capital. I also run a blog at Adventures in Capitalism. And we look for asymmetric opportunities where we're investing in something that's undergoing an inflection.
How is COVID-19 impacting oil supply?

Well, there's too much of it. That's the problem. If you haven't been paying attention, I mean, look out my window. I live on a busy street. There's no cars going by. My dad's scared to go to the golf club because of the virus. There's no airplanes going by. No one really knows how bad it's going to get, but every hour we hear of another state telling people to stay indoors and do nothing.

If you look at what the Chinese did, they had a partial shutdown of their economy and they had a 25% drop in total oil demand. Oil demand being about 100 million barrels a day globally. So if you assume that the rest the OECD does similar to China, I could see us at a 20 million daily surplus of oil. And if you look at how this worked in China, I could see this lasting 50 days, where, basically everyone stays indoors and does nothing, factories stop, nothing happens, and you really have a billion barrels of oil building up.
But then once they turn the switch on, they tell you you're allowed to leave your home, China's two months out of this process. They're not at full capacity yet. I could see us doing another 10 million barrels a day for 100 days. So 150 days, five months, and a billion barrels the first 50 days, a billion barrels the next 100 days, we're talking a two billion barrel surplus. That's a lot of oil, and no one knows where it's going to go.

Where is the excess supply going to end up?

Well, it's going on to tankers. That's obvious. We're going to fill up the land storage the next week or two. There isn't really that much excess land storage globally. And then it's going to go onto, tankers because that's the only place you can put this stuff.

How does storing oil on an oil tanker work?

Let's look at the costs and benefits of storing on a tanker, and let's start with just looking at the crude oil curve, because that's the key determinant of what's going to happen. So if you look at Brent Oil right now, the one year contango, which is the front month-- it's the back 12 month minus front month-- is $11. Okay. Now you take a very large crude carrier of VLC and you put two million barrels, because that's what it can carry, and you get to earn $11. It's risk-free because you are going to sell the future and you're going to buy physical today, and you're going to make $11 off the next one year. Interest costs are basically zero, all the other costs are basically zero, you're going to make $22 million, okay? It's risk-free.

Now the only cost, really, is the tanker. And that $22 million, Vitols and the Glencores of the world, they're going to go out and they're going to charter that tanker. And if you haven't guessed, most of the money is going to go to the tanker owner, because Vitol and Glencore, they're all bidding against each other. It's a pretty liquid, active market. So of that $22, let's say, $20 of it goes the tanker owner. Okay.

And we're not going to worry too much about the Vitols of the world. They're big boys. What they're going to do is they're going to go to the front part of the curve. And if you look at the three-month curve, it's $5 steep, and the six-month curve is $8 steep. They're going to go to the front part of the curve. We're just focused on what the one-year is.

But of that $20 million that goes to a tanker owner, the tanker that would be doing a crude storage, it's an old vessel. It's a 20-year-old vessel. It's probably worth $25 million at most. And you're going to make $20 million on a $25 million investment, but because you're only $5 million above the scrap value, you only really need $5 million of equity to hold onto this thing. So you're making four times your money. And any time you can make four times your money in one year, you're going to do it, and you're going to do it as many times as you possibly can.

So what this is going to do is it's going to take a lot of older vessels out of the existing fleet, because every guy is going to say, I can lock in a one-year, risk-free, four times my money investment? I'm going to do it. How will more tankers going into storage impact tanker charter rates?

The next step is most of the oil fleet globally is used to transport oil, not to store oil. At any one time of the 800 and change tankers of VLCs globally, a few dozen, maybe, are in storage at most. Most of them are transporting oil. But as you start taking a few a day out of the global fleet to store oil because the contango is so steep, where it's going to do it it's going to push up the charter rates of the vessels that are moving oil around. Because you only have so many vessels, and oil stuck in the Arabian Gulf isn't worth much. You can't turn it into dollars and you need to send it to a country that needs it to turn it into dollars.

So right now, let's do some quick math, okay? Ignore what tankers are earning right now. They are earning $300,000 a day, which is crazy. That's higher than the all-time high. That's a few times the all-time high, minus a few spikes over the last 10 years. But let's just assume it earns $100,000 a day, which is one third of what it's earning today. And mind you, this time last year it was earning about $25,000.

Let's say it's earning $100,000 a day. That means it earns $30 million after expenses for the year. Okay, that tanker is a 10-year-old tanker on average. It's worth about $50 million, and you need about $20 million of equity to hold onto it. That means you make 150% of your equity each year. Now remember, the current rates are $200,000 to $300,000. Let's do the $200,000 number. That means you get $65 million on $20 million of equity. That means somewhere between current rates and half of current rates, you're going to make between one and a half and three times your money this year, owning a tanker. Those returns on capital are unheard of in this industry.

Is this priced in?

Of course not. We're right now having the steepest market collapse in 100 years. Everyone's panic selling. These things are in indexes that are panic selling. This guy's just getting liquidated. It's not priced in. What's the crazy part is that you can actually buy a lot of these tanker companies at half of net asset value. So when you think about that, on stated equity, you're earning between one and a half and three times your money. Now if you could buy it at half of that asset value, you're making somewhere between three and six times your money. And this is almost guaranteed, locked-in, risk-free stuff.

Now the question is, how long it's going to last for? Why can't it last a year or two? When you start thinking this all through, if you're going to put two billion barrels on vessels, you're going to have two billion of surplus and probably a billion and change that sits on vessels, and then the world goes back to normal a year from today and you start running at a five million a day deficit, so it took you 400 days to work through those two billion barrels and get back to a normal level of OECD inventory.
So you might be looking at two years, maybe even three years. So why can't you make 10 times your money on this investment?

Can the Saudis' new oil war impact your thesis?

Well, this is beyond the Saudis, okay? Tanker rates started spiking when the Saudis lifted every vessel globally and tried to flood the market with oil. That was last week's news. This week's news-- and mind you, they were adding two million barrels and the rest of their friends in OPEC plus were adding maybe another million barrels. So that was three.

This week's news is my governor's told me to stay home and he doesn't know when I can leave my house. Like, it's a different order of scale now. It's 20 million barrels, maybe even more. It's totally different than the Saudis and the Russians. And even if they cut production now, it's just a different order of magnitude because it's on the demand side, not the supply side. I think the Saudis started this process, but it's out of their hands now.

What if quarantines end early?

Are you kidding? Like, what governor is going to go up on TV, say, everyone can leave their home, and then tomorrow someone dies? Like, that's a sure fire way to never get elected to public office again. You might even get sued. You might get arrested. I don't know. No, they're going to keep this going a lot longer than is rational and logical. If you think of governments, they'll take a problem and always make it worse.

I think they will keep this going for a few weeks past the point, when it's obvious that the virus has flared out. And even then, once you're out of your house, how many people are going to leave your house? Think of my poor dad. He's 73, he's scared to go to the golf course. Once they tell him it's okay to go to the golf course, he's still not going to the golf course. So who's going to drive their cars? Who's going to take jets all over the place?

I've canceled all my meetings. All the conferences I normally go to each year, they're all canceled. No one's traveling. This is going to take a long time to build back up. And I think that glut's just going to keep building. And while it's building, they're going to book a few tankers a day every day to store this oil.

What is the earliest you think this global oil demand slowdown ends?

I think that's six months out. I think your 2 billion barrels, and every time they close down another major global city, it's just pushing that timeline out and building up the surplus. When you think of the crude oil curve, you really think it through, the front end of the curve right now is sitting there at 27, but if it's going to cost you a few dollars a month to store oil, at some point that front of the curve just goes to zero.

And meanwhile, the back end of the curve is going get awful steep. Because when you think of what happens when you cut off 10, 20 million barrels, what's 2023 oil look like? Why can't that be 75 or 100? You're going to be steep for longer.

What is the impact of the US saying it will we fill the strategic oil reserve?

Nah, it's going to do nothing. Look, we're the richest nation on earth. Our strategic petroleum reserve, Trump's talking about 75 million barrels. That's about three days of surplus. We have two billion barrels coming at us. It's a rounding error. And the Chinese will fill up their reserve, and the Indians will do the same. It's just not going to move the needle. There's too much oil.
How much can producers cut supply?

Oh, obviously they're going to try to cut supply. But this takes time to cut supply. You don't just flip a switch and you don't produce oil anymore. And remember, a lot of these guys are near bankruptcy. They need the revenue to basically cover their interest expense. So no, they're going to keep flooding the market. They're going to probably keep flooding the market even if they're losing a few dollars a barrel. It's one of these things where it's expensive to cut supply, it takes time. Even then, you have to still run the oil through your systems and everything else.
I'm using this 150-day period where you hit two billion barrels, because just knowing how corporates work, you have a problem, then you wait two months for a board meeting, you don' t decide anything, you have another board meeting in two months and then you panic. So there's this a timeline and a cycle of this process.

And no, I don't think anyone's cutting today. The Saudis have basically told you they'll take it to zero if they have to. Eventually they will cut, and that's why you'll have a deficit in a year or two. But for right now, no, I think 150 days, two billion barrels is the part you need to focus on. If we're still doing a surplus after that, then who knows how big the surplus could get?

 How does this compare to oil shocks in the past?

So there's been lots of shocks in the past. When you think of oil itself, when you're more than a few hundred thousand barrels on either side of equilibrium, you get wild moves in the price of oil. But let's ignore oil and let's just think of tankers. Every once in a while there's a geopolitical event and demand for tankers changes. Whether it was Egypt closing the canal when they had the revolution, or whether it was Trump sanctioning Costco in Iran, and you had these spikes, but they tend to be short lived. So you have a quick move up to 100,00, 200,000, and then it backs off fast.

This is different. This is going to stay elevated for a very long period of time, because the contango is 11 and I can't see how it doesn't stay 11, give or take, or get wider. And if it gets wider, you actually can earn more storing crude, that's just getting more vessels off the fleets to store oil, which then takes all the residual vessels and push their charter rates higher. The longer this goes on, the bigger the surplus is, the more money you're going to make and the longer it's going to go on for.
How do you play this thesis?

Well, I would say you want to buy tanker stocks. I don't want to get fancy with options. I don't want to think of anything else but tankers. I think you're best off buying yourself a diversified basket of tankers. I don't think you ever want to be making a bet, do I want to own this management team or that management team, this balance sheet or that balance sheet, this fleet configuration or that fleet configuration. I think you want to have a wide basket of these and bet on tankers.

There's some that I'm super excited about. But I don't think this is the right program to talk about individual names. I would just say that you should have a basket.
How will US shale oil producers be impacted?

No, no. I think it's actually going to work a lot like US agriculture, where we produce a lot more than our country needs. We subsidize them dramatically and then we export it. The greatest thing could ever happen is if Trump subsidizes everyone to keep producing oil at a loss, and we just keep producing more surplus. And no one loses their job.
We can print money in America-- we can print dollars that you need for the equipment. Other countries like Nigeria can't print dollars. Eventually they shut off before we do, and we end up just gaining market share. But that's a long process. They'll send my tankers to Pluto.

What are the most important takeaways for viewers?

Yeah. I just want to be clear. It might not be two billion barrels, it might end up being one billion barrels, it might be more. I think these are very fluid numbers, and you shouldn't anchor yourself too deeply on, is it to exactly on the nose at 1.6? The key thing is we're going to overwhelm land storage. And that's the point I want to make.

And then when it comes to tankers, are they all 10 baggers? I don't know, but if you get a triple, is that bad? I don't think you're going to lose much money.

So I just want to make that clear to people watching this. I sometimes speak in hyperbole. But something big is happening. No one's paying attention. The share prices haven't moved. And I really do think people should pay attention.

The big thing to keep in mind is that land storage is filling up. They're going to fill up ocean storage next. And they're going to run out of both, at the rate they're going. And it's going to push tanker prices sky high because it's going to absorb supply at a time when tanker rates are already at multi-year highs. Year over year we've been $10,000, $20,000 above last year's rates all year, even before the virus hit. So it's a strong market to begin with, and it's just going to keep getting stronger.
Started up a position on Tuesday for oil tankers. I also followed Kuppy's blog and read the six or seven posts that he had on the subject dating back to early 2019. I'm currently in:

DHT, EURN, TNK, INSW and have smaller positions in NAT, STNG and DSSI. Followed Kuppy's advice to go with a basket of companies as the industry's management has historically been inept, destroyed shareholder value, and has questionable morals. Just writing that all out, it seems like a no go, but it's very difficult to ignore that management has been buying back shares and insiders are purchasing stock.

This was a Bloomberg article from yesterday touching on the lack of storage space for the oil glut. Bloomberg

These large VLCC's break even at around $30 - $35K/day. YTD they are at $80.5K. 3 weeks ago they were at $217K; last week $183K; this week $143K. Rates

Huge opportunity moving forward, especially if Saudi's continue to pump and/or lockdown is longer than expected. Supply will get constrained and then these tanker companies stand to benefit.

 
Figured I'd try bumping this one time to see if anyone would offer insights. 
I have Wellington in several accounts and love it. It's basically a Allocation fund with 50-70% equities. Wellesley is 30-50% and also good, just more conservative. Cosjobs covered the Bond fund. I will say that I don't like Windsor II. They also just changed their management structure around. I'd probably move that 8% to either Wellington or Wellesley and be done with it. 

 
Tripple may be pushing it but I think a double is a more than fair wager.  $24 puts it back to a ~2004 price.  $36 is more of a recent price (other than back in 2008) level.  Either way I like it - really is a good call.

I Feel the same way about Carnival.  Easy easy double might be 2-3x
Yes....CCL is on my hit list and the only airline I will dip into is DAL. 

For everyone. This is my master buy list for next week and no surprises here except a few I have not listed yet. I wanted to research them a lot harder.

AMZN

AAPL

GOOGL

NFLX

FB

INTC

HD

CSCO

EXC

LMT

MSFT

PFE

PG

TGT

CAT

PM

MCD

YUM

DOW

BRK'B

DEO

GIS

JPM

PFE

UTX

EMR

VZ

T

GCV

PEO

ADX

Here are some high fliers we will take positions in:

NXPI

CYBR

Here is the stressed travel, leisure and gambling casino/paramutual stocks we are going in on:

GLPI - Already have a 50% position going all in next Re-Test 

WYNN

DAL

CCL

CHDN

FUN

Already fully in:

BA - at the freaking lows baby.

Let’s do this!!!! I expect next week to be a blood bath Re-Test. 

 
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This is the only one on my watch list to eventually buy in. Just waiting for the Re-test...patiently. They have a rock solid balance sheet.

Exactamundo my friend. 

With all due respect.....there are hundreds of thousands of American jobs on the line in the cruise business which was a thriving industry. This posturing on the bail out for them....absolutely ludicrous. Horse S### mentality by some (including the POTUS) pulling the not US based card. These are all US citizens financial livelihoods on the lines here. Massive job losses.....MASSIVE.

IT IS ABOUT HELPING AMERICAN WORKERS. Screw the “where is the company based” BS. No time for that in times like this. Look at the bigger picture. 

And all the bailout money will be repaid by these companies. They are loans. Not handouts. 

Every freaking penny of TARP was paid back plus interest. The taxpayers are not paying for Airlines/Boeing/Crusiline loans. They are paying them back folks. It is called bridge financing to get them through this.

Can’t stand when people and politicians use the word “bailout of Wall Street”. from back in 2008. WTF are you talking about. All paid back with interest. Such H**** S*** politics BS.
So how do you really feel?

 
noob question here, bare with me. im using ameritrade and most stocks i buy there isn't a commission . CYDY charges a commissions. is it because its such a low value stock?

 
noob question here, bare with me. im using ameritrade and most stocks i buy there isn't a commission . CYDY charges a commissions. is it because its such a low value stock?
It's an OTC - Over the counter.  Traded directly, not like a traditional stock traded through the the NYSE or Daq.  

 
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RE: The cruise lines

ive been all over the cruise lines the last week and a half.  The bounce back of CCL from 8 to 19 had very little to do with “a bailout”.  Fact if the matter is neither CCL or RCL will need one, NCL I’m unsure of.  CCL had roughly 500M in cash on hand and they just added 3B of cash from a credit facility.  RCL was able to get 2.3B.

Long story short CCL can fund it’s liabilities through Q1 of next year without a single dollar coming in.  They don’t need a bailout.   They don’t need a equity raise.   Also - It’s not completely out of consideration that the “new operational normal” will be up and running by August, which means cash coming in (the two thanksgiving week cruises out of FLL on princess are still close to sold out and very expensive).

the cruise lines were never getting bailed out.  People in the know were well aware of this going back a few weeks.  As a result They have taken actions to secure huge amounts of cash to get through this.

the selloff today is completely unrelated.  It’s uninformed journalists making up stuff to write about the price drop.
Does anyone else think the DEMAND for cruises may drop for awhile, if not long term, after this pandemic? Stranded at sea on a boat when something bad hits, like this? Especially if we hear that even with a vaccine, this may be a yearly thing like the flu. I admit not being a fan of cruises in general but I'd be surprised if their demand is not permanently weaken. 

ETA - See that FantasyCurse covered this angle. 

 
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OK this restaurant stock just caught my attention.

BLMN

Who thinks Outback, Carabas, Bonefish Grill are going under? 

If you don’t this stock just suspended it’s dividend (who cares....we are buying it for a massive turnaround pop trade) and drew down it’s entire credit facility to sit on 400MM in cash.

They will get through this. I can’t see this huge chain brand just going under. The first thing people are doing.....once this is past us is going back out to eat. Big time.

Thoughts?

 
Does anyone else think the DEMAND for cruises may drop for awhile, if not long term, after this pandemic? Stranded at sea on a boat when something bad hits, like this? Especially if we hear that even with a vaccine, this may be a yearly thing like the flu. I admit not being a fan of cruises in general but I'd be surprised if their demand is not permanently weaken. 
i think all the huge deals will lure people back. Also (hope and pray) there will be a vaccine soon to soothe the publics fear.

 
Does anyone else think the DEMAND for cruises may drop for awhile, if not long term, after this pandemic? Stranded at sea on a boat when something bad hits, like this? Especially if we hear that even with a vaccine, this may be a yearly thing like the flu. I admit not being a fan of cruises in general but I'd be surprised if their demand is not permanently weaken. 
I don’t expect it to return to demand of 3 months ago anytime soon, but it’s not going to be zero.

 
OK this restaurant stock just caught my attention.

BLMN

Who thinks Outback, Carabas, Bonefish Grill are going under? 

If you don’t this stock just suspended it’s dividend (who cares....we are buying it for a massive turnaround pop trade) and drew down it’s entire credit facility to sit on 400MM in cash.

They will get through this. I can’t see this huge chain brand just going under. The first thing people are doing.....once this is past us is going back out to eat. Big time.

Thoughts?
I could go for a Bloomin' Onion and a 2 liter glass of Fosters right now

 
accumulate. None of us bought in expecting a $1.50 stock. I think most of us are wishcasting $10-30.
Yes, and then @Chet buys a cruise line for pennies on the dollar and takes us all on a year long trip around the world.  If were still cool enough to hang out with.  He may be dining with Buffett, Musk, Bezos then.

 
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OK this restaurant stock just caught my attention.

BLMN

Who thinks Outback, Carabas, Bonefish Grill are going under? 

If you don’t this stock just suspended it’s dividend (who cares....we are buying it for a massive turnaround pop trade) and drew down it’s entire credit facility to sit on 400MM in cash.

They will get through this. I can’t see this huge chain brand just going under. The first thing people are doing.....once this is past us is going back out to eat. Big time.

Thoughts?
Agreed - easy double or triple. 

 
Yes....CCL is on my hit list and the only airline I will dip into is DAL. 

Let’s do this!!!! I expect next week to be a blood bath Re-Test. 
Thanks. I thought that was you that had a big list and I was searching pages from days ago and could't find it.

 
You're just totally throwing out your "no action of fridays" plan, aren't ya?  😉

I do like these buys.
These are buys in my own account. The PITA part of being an advisor....you can’t buy on the same days as your clients. It is a real PITA. Can’t front run.

So I got in a couple of highly stressed buys today....not worried about a 10-15% more drop short term on these two stocks. 

We are looking at 3-6-12 months holds on these. All depends on how long those doubles take......and in this market...who knows. It moves so damn fast. LOL.

Next week though (assuming the re-test or close to it)......we are buying that master list for both my clients and myself....just have to choose the day for me LOL.

Anyway.

 
These are buys in my own account. The PITA part of being an advisor....you can’t buy on the same days as your clients. It is a real PITA. Can’t front run.
Makes sense man.  Good to know there are advisers with integrity out there.  :thumbup:

 
So with the stimulus now passed and likely signed ASAP, is there any good news to get us through next week? I fully expect virus news to get worse and would expect extended lockdown measures all over.

Here in France we were just extended to April 15 without only essential movement throughout the country and the virus has been more intense here a couple weeks longer than in the US. 

More movement restrictions next week and further closures drive equities down further? No way is business open by April 10 like Trump wants.

 
These are buys in my own account. The PITA part of being an advisor....you can’t buy on the same days as your clients. It is a real PITA. Can’t front run.

So I got in a couple of highly stressed buys today....not worried about a 10-15% more drop short term on these two stocks. 

We are looking at 3-6-12 months holds on these. All depends on how long those doubles take......and in this market...who knows. It moves so damn fast. LOL.

Next week though (assuming the re-test or close to it)......we are buying that master list for both my clients and myself....just have to choose the day for me LOL.

Anyway.
please continue to post your thoughts. your takes so far are spot on.

 
I know I said earlier I was going to invest long term and all that jazz. But seeing CYDY move up after I got it a few days ago at 1.04 is fun. I have 10k to play with and to hell with it lets gamble. Going to put 2k on MGM and 2k on BLMN just going to pick a price and go with it. 

Lets go boys !!!!

 
In the next week, twice as many Americans will die of COVID as were killed on 9/11.

Anyone thinking that Won't begin to wear on the market is nuts. 

 
In the next week, twice as many Americans will die of COVID as were killed on 9/11.

Anyone thinking that Won't begin to wear on the market is nuts. 
I agree it will hit the market again next week, but we’re a pretty disgusting society and I’m starting to think the current administration is only concerned about GDP and not about people dying. 

 
I agree it will hit the market again next week, but we’re a pretty disgusting society and I’m starting to think the current administration is only concerned about GDP and not about people dying. 
I agree it's sad but people will move on quicker then people might think. 

 
accumulate. None of us bought in expecting a $1.50 stock. I think most of us are wishcasting $10-30.
Yep. I’m even in my brokerage account due to this and I have more in my IRA but I don’t have ZM in the IRA so down a little bit there overall today. Finally got some action on it. I didn’t get in at .29, wish I had, but I’ll take a 40% gain today.

 
CYDY isn't on one of the "normal" stock exchanges, and one of the reasons why is that, yes, it's low value doesn't qualify it. It's traded over-the-counter (OTC) instead, so there are lots of fees.
Got mine with $0 commissions on Fidelity. I may have to check but I don’t recall seeing any. That said, I’ve got almost every account including my current 401k there so I might get some extra benefits. I keep getting emails from a wealth advisor, but I kind of like buying stocks instead of funds.

 

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