supermike80
Footballguy
Way too general of a statement for me to accept. Your first point was valid. There was a bit of heavy handedness.....but what defines erring on the side of caution? What defines prudent?
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Study: Lockdowns had little or no impact on COVID-19 deaths (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter ekbeats
- Start date
Your response to my previous comment that folks should be thankful they are alive after locking down was "Thats the problem". I simply answered in good-faith. I'm not an epidemiologist. I'll let them develop the better informed protocols moving forward.
supermike80
Footballguy
Well you said it. So in other words you don't know what you meant? Ok got it. Weird but ok.
Battersbox
Footballguy
I gave an explanation to why I thought that was a problem.
You gave a sound bite commonly used by the overly dramatic to try and score points for whatever argument you're trying to make.
Tired of listening to people say 'well, doing it my way saved lives!!!' or 'I guess you just don't care about saving lives!!!!', or my favorite 'I guess your inconvenience isn't worth SAVING LIVES!!!'.
It's useless. it's all been said before and it's the furthest thing there is to discussing things in good faith.
I meant what I said. Perhaps being heavy handed wasn't such a bad thing for this historic outbreak.
supermike80
Footballguy
supermike80
Footballguy
There was no "perhaps" in your post, Thus the challenge to that.
But erring on the side of caution with a historic pandemic seems prudent.
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supermike80
Footballguy
supermike80
Footballguy
Well no it isn't. Cause when I asked for a little clarification, you told me you dont know, because you're not an epidemiologist
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
If we learned anything from the pandemic, it's that people with advanced degrees in public health disciplines don't have a very good understanding of human behavior and shouldn't be in policy-making positions. Policy should be informed by subject-matter expertise, but actually made by people with expertise in making policy.
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Football Jones
Footballguy
Absolutely, LOL.
I've never seen so many people with what seems to be at least an average IQ fall for all the horse****.
Lots & lots of people need to look at themselves in the mirror & get a grip.
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speaking of subject matter experts
this one shreds the usefulness of masks
https://twitter.com/kerpen/status/1511369896885686277
Here is the testimony of industrial hygeinist @pettypodcast1 last week in New Hampshire presenting the consensus of the field that (unlike medical doctors) has subject matter expertise on abatement of airborne contaminants.
Stephen E. Petty, PE, CIH testifies to New Hampshire Senate committee
March 30, 2022 Source: https://youtu.be/hZb3ND7Q1B8?t=8249
this one shreds the usefulness of masks
https://twitter.com/kerpen/status/1511369896885686277
Here is the testimony of industrial hygeinist @pettypodcast1 last week in New Hampshire presenting the consensus of the field that (unlike medical doctors) has subject matter expertise on abatement of airborne contaminants.
Stephen E. Petty, PE, CIH testifies to New Hampshire Senate committee
March 30, 2022 Source: https://youtu.be/hZb3ND7Q1B8?t=8249
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Scientists are one type of subject matter expert. Specifically, they're subject matter experts on the topic of science, or some particular branch of science. Knowing a lot about chemistry doesn't qualify a person to make policy. That's what I'm getting at -- leave policy-making to the policy-makers.
Technical expertise is needed to answer questions like "What is the IFR for school-aged children who become infected with SARS-CoV-2?" But you need wisdom to answer a question like "Is it in society's best interest to shut down schools during this particular pandemic?" Scientists are great when it comes to the first kind of question, but no better than your average person when it comes to answering the second.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Not sure how one determines heavy-handedness in the face of the US’s case/mortality stats in comparison to the rest of the developed world. Also don’t understand how one can be so arrogant to dismiss the guidance of nearly every public health and infectious disease expert in the country.
Thankfully, I don’t live in an area where such contempt is shown for expertise, in favor of gut feelings based on limited personal experience.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Do you really believe the discussion of disease mitigation strategies didn’t discuss the overall risk:benefit in a multidisciplinary setting?
I’m not saying they got everything right, but I’m fairly certain it wasn’t just a bunch of epidemiologists determining the way to manage the pandemic.
supermike80
Footballguy
Problem is, for me, it wasn't just the health experts. Again, I've repeated it a few times but thars cause its a good example of how our elected officials went bonzo.
Couldn't buy seeds at the grocery store for crying out loud.
Not to mention....while businesses were shuttered and devastated by this. The big boys were open. How come I can't buy seeds but I can get a 2x4 at home depot?
How on earth does wearing a mask while walking in a restaurant provide protection when I can take it off when I sit?
I realize you are part of the medical community and I appreciate how difficult this must have been. But that field made gaffes too.
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Battersbox
Footballguy
The U.S. did worse than many countries. The U.S. also did better than several countries. I know I don't have to point out all the confounding factors that contribute to mortality rates, you know about those, so I won't.
If you want a specific example of heavy-handedness: we closed schools for a long, long time while much of the developed world left them open. I know from past discussions you are of the opinion that our kids are 'resilient' and that doesn't matter, but I think you're in the minority on that.
That's why narrow-discipline scientists, including medical physicians such as yourself, shouldn't necessarily drive the mitigation bus.
You can keep saying that everyone who disagrees with you is arrogant if it makes you feel better though.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Of course. We’re all human, so it’s inevitable mistakes will be made.
But overall, I believe the correct general strategy was advocated - implementation was where more mistakes were made imo. And being overly restrictive didn’t create more problems than people willy-nilly deciding they’d had enough with masks, social distancing, etc.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I’ve promised not to talk about kid stuff, so I’ll refrain from further commentary in that regard.
But yes, I think it takes a special kind of arrogance to understate the harm caused by the pandemic, suggesting the policies are worse than the disease. And you’re not just disagreeing with me, but the vast majority of public health and infectious disease experts worldwide.
ETA I didn’t have anything to do with US pandemic policy, nor do I think I have all the answers. I deferred to the experts.
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Battersbox
Footballguy
I didn't say the policies are worse than the disease. But I do think the policies as a whole have made the entire situation worse. There is a big difference there.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
No, of course not. I think they probably discussed this topic in the amateur-hour manner consistent with the decisions they made. For example, there is a type of person who believes that you can just lie about masks not being effective and then do a 180 a few weeks later and everybody will just roll with it. There's a type of person who sees a statistically irrelevant "risk" of heart problems with a particular vaccine and figures it's okay to yank it off the market and nobody will notice. We could go on and on here. The important thing is that these folks should not have been in the room when policy was actually being crafted.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Ok. We disagree. Not all policies were great, but overall I think we’re better off, especially when the alternative is deferring to the opinions of laypeople.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I think you’re giving undue weight to a smattering of minor gaffes in your overall appraisal of pandemic policy and policymakers. I also believe you’re giving the average citizen too much credit for their critical appraisal skills.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
To clarify, I don't mean this in the sense of "let's listen to the average person on the street instead of the experts." The average person on the street is an idiot. I'm sure you and I probably agree on that.
What I mean is turning more decisions over to professional policy-makers, specifically elected officials. People whose job involves looking broadly at society, seeing how pieces fit together, and making tradeoffs.
Most "experts" are experts on some very narrow topic. Like, say, how 3rd graders learn reading and basic math. Or how to get passengers from Miami to New York with their luggage intact. Or how to treat people with lymphoma. That knowledge is great, but it's narrow.
A teacher can tell you a lot about a pandemic might affect kids. A doctor can tell you a lot about how a pandemic will affect patients. Neither can tell you much about how we should weigh the relative importance of keeping schools open vs. keeping hospitals from being overwhelmed. That's where you need people who can see the bigger picture and who have the applied wisdom to make hard decisions. Unfortunately, that's where we rely on politicians. We haven't elected very good politicians recently, but we really do need folks who have a broad understanding of human behavior and society. I don't know that there's a good alternative in a democratic society than simply electing better people.
the moops
Footballguy
While it is enjoyable for my kids to be running in and out of neighbors/friends houses to play with their friends - I must admit, I miss the quiet of my two boys playing together in their rooms or always being outside with others. Now they come barreling into our house with others and ruin my serenity!
