Talk About Meat Consumption (1 Viewer)

[massraider]

I'm a meat eater who consumes more micro-greens and sprouts than several of you combined. I grow them in my house

What you using for your grow?

I really wanna get into this, I think

 

[the moops]

I am meat every meal. I am eventually going to die anyway, why would I want to die miserable?

FYI but those of us that don’t eat meat are not miserable.

I’m pretty sure he meant he would be miserable without it, not you

Yes, I understood that. I should have been more clear, but I was more going with "I doubt you will be as miserable as you think you will be". I should hope that we all could find enough joy in our lives to not be miserable simply because we had to remove something from our diet

 

[Chaos34]

Tell us more about the fasting and the greens.

Well, I spent most of my life up until a depressing divorce between 195 and 205 pounds. I was a daily runner and really active with sports. Post divorce I went into a funk and got fat. Really fat. The battle to lose weight was something else. I rollercoastered like Oprah. This was in the 00s when paleo dieting became the rage. Associated with it was the concept of intermittent fasting. I've always been the type who can easily skip breakfast. So I gave it a shot by skipping lunch too whilr seriously low carbing. After years of struggling I crashed-dieted that 100 pounds off in 8 months. But I was a little crazy. I water fasted for 7 days a few times and 11 once. Your Maurile was a big inspiration, btw. I juice fasted and yogurt fasted. I read and read and read the research. I understood maintenance was gonna be an issue, so I committed to the IF lifestyle. I was 198 at my last Dr's appointment.

There's a variety of intermittent fasting schemes, but the idea of one meal a day seems to be the real deal. Good things happen hormonally when you're hungry. My ghrelin and leptin signalling, hungry and not hungry, are changed. I don't get hungry like 3 meal a day-ers. I fill up faster than I used to. I always tell fat people who I know well enough, hunger is good. It is. There's epigenetics involved. It isn't for everyone, no doubt, but it is simple for me. Normal for me now. I eat dinner. Ultimately, I think it works because of calorie restriction.

Growing sprouts and microgreens indoors became a fad during isolation. I used to own commercial greenhouses so it was right up my alley. It's simple, fun, tasty and healthy. Baby plants are much more nutrient dense than mature plants. If I need a snack during the afternoon before my one meal, I snip me a bowl of sprouts and microgreens, toss in some nuts, little balsamic and olive oil and that gets me to dinner. No bags of cookies and chips around here anymore.

I bought some cheap plastic shelving and germination trays at Home Depot. I bought a couple sets of these grow lights. I bought peat, coconut coir and potting soil. I bought bulk seed of a wide variety from different sources. True Leaf, Johnny's, Tomato Growers Supply, Amazon, etc. They're cheap enough and last a long time. You do need to sow them heavily. For sprouts each section of the tray gets a dense layer of seed. For microgreens a little spacing, but not much. Sprouts are literally ready in 10-12 days. Pea sprouts, sunflower sprouts and spicy radish sprouts are yummy. Microgreens take a month, but I keep them rotating. Any lettuce, spinach or kale or similar can be harvested at the micro stage. The images are self-explanatory. Many tutorials on Youtube. It's a fun and healthy hobby.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Tell us more about the fasting and the greens.

Well, I spent most of my life up until a depressing divorce between 195 and 205 pounds. I was a daily runner and really active with sports. Post divorce I went into a funk and got fat. Really fat. The battle to lose weight was something else. I rollercoastered like Oprah. This was in the 00s when paleo dieting became the rage. Associated with it was the concept of intermittent fasting. I've always been the type who can easily skip breakfast. So I gave it a shot by skipping lunch too whilr seriously low carbing. After years of struggling I crashed-dieted that 100 pounds off in 8 months. But I was a little crazy. I water fasted for 7 days a few times and 11 once. Your Maurile was a big inspiration, btw. I juice fasted and yogurt fasted. I read and read and read the research. I understood maintenance was gonna be an issue, so I committed to the IF lifestyle. I was 198 at my last Dr's appointment.

There's a variety of intermittent fasting schemes, but the idea of one meal a day seems to be the real deal. Good things happen hormonally when you're hungry. My ghrelin and leptin signalling, hungry and not hungry, are changed. I don't get hungry like 3 meal a day-ers. I fill up faster than I used to. I always tell fat people who I know well enough, hunger is good. It is. There's epigenetics involved. It isn't for everyone, no doubt, but it is simple for me. Normal for me now. I eat dinner. Ultimately, I think it works because of calorie restriction.

Growing sprouts and microgreens indoors became a fad during isolation. I used to own commercial greenhouses so it was right up my alley. It's simple, fun, tasty and healthy. Baby plants are much more nutrient dense than mature plants. If I need a snack during the afternoon before my one meal, I snip me a bowl of sprouts and microgreens, toss in some nuts, little balsamic and olive oil and that gets me to dinner. No bags of cookies and chips around here anymore.

I bought some cheap plastic shelving and germination trays at Home Depot. I bought a couple sets of these grow lights. I bought peat, coconut coir and potting soil. I bought bulk seed of a wide variety from different sources. True Leaf, Johnny's, Tomato Growers Supply, Amazon, etc. They're cheap enough and last a long time. You do need to sow them heavily. For sprouts each section of

the tray gets a dense layer of seed. For microgreens a little spacing, but not much. Sprouts are literally ready in 10-12 days. Pea sprouts, sunflower sprouts and spicy radish sprouts are yummy. Microgreens take a month, but I keep them rotating. Any lettuce, spinach or kale or similar can be harvested at the micro stage. The images are self-explanatory. Many tutorials on Youtube. It's a fun and healthy hobby.

Awesome. Thank you.

 

[urbanhack]

3 to 6 times per week, but 90% of the time it is poultry/fish.

 

[snellman]

I am meat every meal. I am eventually going to die anyway, why would I want to die miserable?

FYI but those of us that don’t eat meat are not miserable.

I’m pretty sure he meant he would be miserable without it, not you

Yes, I understood that. I should have been more clear, but I was more going with "I doubt you will be as miserable as you think you will be". I should hope that we all could find enough joy in our lives to not be miserable simply because we had to remove something from our diet

I may have over exaggerated. However, as I stated, my grandfather owned a meat locker. My dad worked in a meat processor. I have been raised on meat my entire life. I like a good steak on the weekend. A good burger is a great meal. I love to put ribs or pulled pork, etc on the smoker. There is no way I am giving that up. If I live 10 years less because of that, so be it. I have been to the nursing home enough times (my mother is currently in one). That I know that is not the way I want to live, so I am going to enjoy it and eat the foods I enjoy not worrying about "the consequences"

 

[Terminalxylem]

Back to the blue diets, a lot of the longest living regions in the world consume a fair bit of wine, so it's not cut and dry in any aspect that these things are good or bad for you but there is a pretty decent amount of evidence that in general consuming less of them is probably best for you health.

I’m a tad skeptical on some is the blue zone diet stuff I’ve read. But I’m equally or more skeptical about carnivore studies (just as an example). Too many of these can’t be reproduced and have too many confounders but generally speaking I’m down with Mediterranean diets.

I'm trying not to make this a pro vegan/vegetarian thread, just as I don't think alcohol thread should be an abstinence or prohibition type of all or nothing question.

There's obviously some nuance in both in terms of type and volume of meat and drink, with the spectrum of half a cup of red wine with dinner to 7 double whiskeys and at the same token from a piece of lean chicken to a cold cut sub.

In the whole, it’s a tad silly for folks, like myself, to argue about optimal diets. The vast, vast majority of us aren’t even close. If you don’t eat sugar or drink alcohol or processed food and have a couple of ribeyes weekly I’d be willing to bet you will be much healthier than somebody who eats cereal with cows milk, bagels and cheese, desserts, etc.

I think it's good to have the discussions, knowing that most of us aren't perfect or optimal but can make small changes here and there to improve general health.

Agreed. Perfect is the enemy of good. Make the changes that work for you. For some that will be no/less meat for others it's no booze or others it's a lot of cardio,etc.

Agree - and my bad if it wasn’t clear. We are complex beings and these are complex systems. I guess you could say my comment was pro-meat (just from a dietary perspective and not moral or environmental) - nobody in here does it that I’ve seen but there’s a lot of dogma on both sides that act like a steak or a salad could kill you. Eat natural, get sleep, drink lots of water, limit stress, exercise, don’t drink a lot or any alcohol. You do those things and you will be well ahead of probably 90% of people.

Back to the blue diets, a lot of the longest living regions in the world consume a fair bit of wine, so it's not cut and dry in any aspect that these things are good or bad for you but there is a pretty decent amount of evidence that in general consuming less of them is probably best for you health.

I’m a tad skeptical on some is the blue zone diet stuff I’ve read. But I’m equally or more skeptical about carnivore studies (just as an example). Too many of these can’t be reproduced and have too many confounders but generally speaking I’m down with Mediterranean diets.

I'm trying not to make this a pro vegan/vegetarian thread, just as I don't think alcohol thread should be an abstinence or prohibition type of all or nothing question.

There's obviously some nuance in both in terms of type and volume of meat and drink, with the spectrum of half a cup of red wine with dinner to 7 double whiskeys and at the same token from a piece of lean chicken to a cold cut sub.

In the whole, it’s a tad silly for folks, like myself, to argue about optimal diets. The vast, vast majority of us aren’t even close. If you don’t eat sugar or drink alcohol or processed food and have a couple of ribeyes weekly I’d be willing to bet you will be much healthier than somebody who eats cereal with cows milk, bagels and cheese, desserts, etc.

I think it's good to have the discussions, knowing that most of us aren't perfect or optimal but can make small changes here and there to improve general health.

Agreed. Perfect is the enemy of good. Make the changes that work for you. For some that will be no/less meat for others it's no booze or others it's a lot of cardio,etc.

Agree - and my bad if it wasn’t clear. We are complex beings and these are complex systems. I guess you could say my comment was pro-meat (just from a dietary perspective and not moral or environmental) - nobody in here does it that I’ve seen but there’s a lot of dogma on both sides that act like a steak or a salad could kill you. Eat natural, get sleep, drink lots of water, limit stress, exercise, don’t drink a lot or any alcohol. You do those things and you will be well ahead of probably 90% of people.

Maintaining a healthy weight is the most important part of any diet. If you can do that, the actual food you consume is much less important.

The problem is, most people have no ideal what constitutes a healthy weight - American standards are ~20-30 pounds overweight, lest you look “anorexic”.

 

[General Malaise]

My wife went vegan 3 or 4 years ago. She was vegetarian before that and would eat fish and cheese....no more. It's not really a big deal, though it has its challenges with a family our size. "What do you want to do for dinner" can be a tough question to answer when different people in your family want different things.

But we adapted, as you do. With my older kids off at college, it's been easier to adjust. I might grill some chicken or fish once a week and use it for meals as an addition to stir fry or salad or Asian noodles and tofu.

More recently, I've found that adjusting to a diet that is more plant-based is easier if I find things to cook and add to the rotation. I absolutely love tinkering with spices and herbs and nailing a recipe that might have been out of my comfort zone years ago. Found a couple of vegan websites that have terrific recipes for things like soups, stews, chilis that taste amazing when done. I'm all about a long, slow, layered cooking process, so when I find something like that, it gets me excited to try it. I can make a vegan African Peanut Stew, pour that over rice and eat it 3-4 days during the week and be perfectly content.

And then every so often, I'll hammer out 15 over-priced chicken wings at Rochester Mid Wings or something,

 

[culdeus]

I went about 6 years eating basically no meat that walked. I did it for digestive health trying to reduce heartburn, and to an extent I think it worked. Ate mostly beans and fish for protein along with limited dairy. Could have been more like 10 years. Was the Mediterranean diet before that was popular. I also was riding a bike in the range of something stupid like 300 miles a week.

Wife was suffering from anemia so we worked in first some deer I would shoot, then later grass fed beef and chicken at home only.

Today, hard to say. Probably of the 21 meals in a week would have a 4 oz serving of meat in 8 of them, then another 4 meals with seafood. Still lean very heavy on the vegetables and beans/rice. Don't eat any impossible stuff, but have tried it.

The hardest parts thru the years was people generally were dicks. You can not drink alcohol and nobody says anything, but you pass on some burger and you've insulted their mother and you'll get a lecture about evolution and teeth and how they could NEVER IMAGINE going even 8 hours without some meat.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Total anecdote but wanted to share. I think if someone can stick to it that being a meat and vegetables person may be our most ideal diet based on our evolution. Eliminate sugar, dairy, grains, everything processed, alcohol.

I think in terms of longevity, the blue zones are largely Mediterranean/vegetarian diets with are both very little meat.

A recent study for heart health found the DASH diet (protein primarily for fish and seafood) to be the best, followed by pescatarian, Mediterranean, vegetarian and vegan in that order. Paleo and keto were the two worst.

I think there are varying results but for heart health it seems pretty clear a meat heavy diet isn't the best option. Add that to meat being proven to be linked to colon cancer and red meat and processed meats being labelled as carcinogens - I really do think this is the same conversation as alcohol.

Back to the blue diets, a lot of the longest living regions in the world consume a fair bit of wine, so it's not cut and dry in any aspect that these things are good or bad for you but there is a pretty decent amount of evidence that in general consuming less of them is probably best for you health.

Surprisingly, none of the Blue Zones eat the typical Mediterranean Diet, nor do many of them drink much.

That’s not to say the Mediterranean diet isn’t healthy, nor is modest alcohol consumption a problem. It probably underscores there is more than one way to skin the longevity cat.

That said, there are common themes in all the Blue Zones. Overall there is low animal/animal product consumption. Meat is eaten sparingly, if at all. And they are high carbohydrate, low-ish protein.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I am meat every meal. I am eventually going to die anyway, why would I want to die miserable?

FYI but those of us that don’t eat meat are not miserable.

I’m pretty sure he meant he would be miserable without it, not you

Yes, I understood that. I should have been more clear, but I was more going with "I doubt you will be as miserable as you think you will be". I should hope that we all could find enough joy in our lives to not be miserable simply because we had to remove something from our diet

I may have over exaggerated. However, as I stated, my grandfather owned a meat locker. My dad worked in a meat processor. I have been raised on meat my entire life. I like a good steak on the weekend. A good burger is a great meal. I love to put ribs or pulled pork, etc on the smoker. There is no way I am giving that up. If I live 10 years less because of that, so be it. I have been to the nursing home enough times (my mother is currently in one). That I know that is not the way I want to live, so I am going to enjoy it and eat the foods I enjoy not worrying about "the consequences"

I‘ve heard statements along these lines many times, and interacted with an even greater number of terminally ill people. Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

I have no idea how much pleasure any individual derives from eating meat, but it’s quite easy to auction off a decade you’ve never had a chance to live.

To be fair, forsaking meat won’t likely prolong life 10 years. But giving it up isn’t necessarily terrible, either, regardless of how you were raised.

 

[Mitchie]

I went about 6 years eating basically no meat that walked. I did it for digestive health trying to reduce heartburn, and to an extent I think it worked. Ate mostly beans and fish for protein along with limited dairy. Could have been more like 10 years. Was the Mediterranean diet before that was popular. I also was riding a bike in the range of something stupid like 300 miles a week.

Wife was suffering from anemia so we worked in first some deer I would shoot, then later grass fed beef and chicken at home only.

Today, hard to say. Probably of the 21 meals in a week would have a 4 oz serving of meat in 8 of them, then another 4 meals with seafood. Still lean very heavy on the vegetables and beans/rice. Don't eat any impossible stuff, but have tried it.

The hardest parts thru the years was people generally were dicks. You can not drink alcohol and nobody says anything, but you pass on some burger and you've insulted their mother and you'll get a lecture about evolution and teeth and how they could NEVER IMAGINE going even 8 hours without some meat.

you live in Texas or something? you need to move to a hippie town and you can eat as many veggie burgers as you want and noone will bat an eye.

 

[the moops]

I went about 6 years eating basically no meat that walked. I did it for digestive health trying to reduce heartburn, and to an extent I think it worked. Ate mostly beans and fish for protein along with limited dairy. Could have been more like 10 years. Was the Mediterranean diet before that was popular. I also was riding a bike in the range of something stupid like 300 miles a week.

Wife was suffering from anemia so we worked in first some deer I would shoot, then later grass fed beef and chicken at home only.

Today, hard to say. Probably of the 21 meals in a week would have a 4 oz serving of meat in 8 of them, then another 4 meals with seafood. Still lean very heavy on the vegetables and beans/rice. Don't eat any impossible stuff, but have tried it.

The hardest parts thru the years was people generally were dicks. You can not drink alcohol and nobody says anything, but you pass on some burger and you've insulted their mother and you'll get a lecture about evolution and teeth and how they could NEVER IMAGINE going even 8 hours without some meat.

you live in Texas or something? you need to move to a hippie town and you can eat as many veggie burgers as you want and noone will bat an eye.

I imagine @culdeus is speaking to his experience like a dozen years ago or something like that. Veggie options are certainly plentiful nearly every place you go these days - it was definitely not always the case.

20 years ago the veggie option many times would be like order a steak dinner, and just sub out the steak, so basically a potato and some veggies and bread. Or order a chicken caesar salad without the chicken.

 

[FBG26]

Lunch and dinner every day. It's delicious.

 

[Terminalxylem]

The hardest parts thru the years was people generally were dicks. You can not drink alcohol and nobody says anything, but you pass on some burger and you've insulted their mother and you'll get a lecture about evolution and teeth and how they could NEVER IMAGINE going even 8 hours without some meat.

I’ve had a similar experience. Which is kinda funny, as it’s a mirror-image of the sanctimonious, militant vegan stereotype everyone seems to despise.

FTR, I’ve met/known a few vegans over the years, and only one was lecturing others on their food choices. The rest just wanted to eat their meals in peace.

 

[[icon]]

Fish and dairy are probably best kept seperate for simplicity sake.

Why?

Eggs maybe, but Animal flesh is animal flesh.

Always found it funny that some "Vegetarians" like to try to take what they perceive is some sort of moral high ground while still eating fish.

Those who want to do that.... Do your thing, I certainly DGAF. But at least be consistent if you're gonna strut around with your chest pressed out sanctimoniously letting everyone know about what you choose to shove down your gullet.

 

[3C's]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

 

[3C's]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Always found it funny that some "Vegetarians" like to try to take what they perceive is some sort of moral high ground while still eating fish.

I hesitate to respond to obvious trolling but a pig has the cognitive abilities of a three year old human child - fish not so much. There's also a tremendous difference in the environmental impact in raising cattle and farming fish.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Fish and dairy are probably best kept seperate for simplicity sake.

Why?

Eggs maybe, but Animal flesh is animal flesh.

Always found it funny that some "Vegetarians" like to try to take what they perceive is some sort of moral high ground while still eating fish.

Those who want to do that.... Do your thing, I certainly DGAF. But at least be consistent if you're gonna strut around with your chest pressed out sanctimoniously letting everyone know about what you choose to shove down your gullet.

You‘re absolutely right about pescatarians being inconsistent, if their dietary choices are based on animal welfare. There is an argument to be made about pain perception/suffering, but personally, I think that experience begins somewhere lower on the evolutionary chain than fish.

The same can probably said for environmental impact, though commercial fishing ain’t doing the planet any favors.

But from a health perspective, the fish-eaters are likely doing their gullets right.

Similar arguments can be made for animal products.

So I guess it matters what the OP was interested in discussing - seems most posts are focussed on the health impact of diet, specifically, whether red meat is a problem.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

 

[3C's]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

I also can't speak for him but I don't think he literally wants to live 10 years less. I think he's like a lot of us, if given the option of keeping things we enjoy versus a slightly extended lifespan we will choose the former over the latter.

 

[Keerock]

I will be going 100% carnivore starting tomorrow

 

[culdeus]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

I also can't speak for him but I don't think he literally wants to live 10 years less. I think he's like a lot of us, if given the option of keeping things we enjoy versus a slightly extended lifespan we will choose the former over the latter.

Alot of diet is peoples identity. They would trade life for their identity. It's pretty obvious that meat and cancer are at least linked in some ways.

 

[urbanhack]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

I also can't speak for him but I don't think he literally wants to live 10 years less. I think he's like a lot of us, if given the option of keeping things we enjoy versus a slightly extended lifespan we will choose the former over the latter.

This makes no sense. You have no idea if this will shorten your life span or not but it's going to put you at risk for other diseases. And you may live longer than you think but end up with critical issues or diseases and then someone else has to take care you. "Living in the moment now" and eating "unhealthy" is extremely selfish because you really have no idea what the last 10 or 15 of your life is going to be like. You could be a burden on the family...who knows.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Like the alcohol thread, I find myself a combination of poll options. I voted 3-6 because I am an intermittent faster for life, the last 17-18 years anyway. I have one meal a day and it usually includes meat, with red meat a little more prevalent than poultry and fish. I mostly avoid pork. So 7 big meals a week, usually with a meat but not always, leaves me around 5-6. But to be fair, I think my portions might be considered big, so maybe that puts me around 7-9 with half or so red meat. Not sure. It varies weekly and I enjoy vegetarian days weekly.

Also, I hesitate to go here, but the blue zones thing has become a little pet peeve for me. You can google its debunking and flaws, and quickly find the debunkers debunked and round and round they go like politics used to here. Sardinia is the 8th or 9th longest lived region in Italy. Okinawa is far behind other parts of Japan. The Costa Rica group had terrible record keeping and so on.

Two recent studies that incorporated far larger samples determined red meat is beneficial for longevity. This one out of Australia. Kinda compelling guys. This one out of Europe.

The conclusion: a diet high in fruit, vegetables, nuts, legumes, fish, and whole-fat dairy is associated with lower cardiovascular disease and death in all world regions, especially in countries with lower income where consumption of these foods is low. It also found that those who consumed higher amounts of red meat fared better on health measurements than those who consumed little.

That second one... well, mmmm cheese. When I read the results of the China Study and the Blue Zones book, I sort of instinctually had the impression the dietary conclusions became over-emphasized. The other factors, staying active, having purpose, being socially active within the community felt under-appreciated. There's also a tendency for someone health conscious enough to minimize meat to also include other healthy ideas in their lifestyle. The guy rolling through In-n-Out three times a week for a double double, fries and a coke probably includes other not so healthy ideas in his lifestyle. Just a hunch. This can make meat seem like the bad guy when maybe it isn't. Sugar probably is. I haven't bought a bag of sugar in over a decade. I'm a meat eater who consumes more micro-greens and sprouts than several of you combined. I grow them in my house.

Good post.

I think both those studies are flawed.

For one, meat consumption is being compared to the entire spectrum of non-meat diets. This includes ultraprocessed carbohydrates, which everyone agrees are unhealthy, and an increasingly large component of “poverty diets” worldwide. In that context, I‘ll agree; meat is superior to junk food.

As you mention, making conclusions in any nutrition study is problematic, in large part due to confounders, including the “healthy user bias” among those who partake in plant based diets. The way to minimize this problem is to control for confounding variables, by studying as homogeneous a population as possible.

For this reason, I favor data from the Adventist and China studies, which both showed health benefits of eating plants. On the flip side, a WHO database is about as far from homogeneous as you can get. Data mining in such a fashion is prone to all sorts of spurious conclusions.

Don‘t have time to comment further, but thanks for posting those links.

 

[3C's]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

I also can't speak for him but I don't think he literally wants to live 10 years less. I think he's like a lot of us, if given the option of keeping things we enjoy versus a slightly extended lifespan we will choose the former over the latter.

This makes no sense. You have no idea if this will shorten your life span or not but it's going to put you at risk for other diseases. And you may live longer than you think but end up with critical issues or diseases and then someone else has to take care you. "Living in the moment now" and eating "unhealthy" is extremely selfish because you really have no idea what the last 10 or 15 of your life is going to be like. You could be a burden on the family...who knows.

And I could also eat super healthy and have a stroke or contract some disease/cancer and someone has to take care of me.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

I also can't speak for him but I don't think he literally wants to live 10 years less. I think he's like a lot of us, if given the option of keeping things we enjoy versus a slightly extended lifespan we will choose the former over the latter.

The devil is in the details, of course.

If eliminating red meat, but still eating poultry/fish/eggs/dairy, extended your life a year and a half, would you do it?

If eating healthily, exercising, attaining ideal weight, not smoking, and reducing alcohol intake extended your life 5-12 years, would you adopt those behaviors?

What if those same behaviors increased your functional “healthspan” 5 years, and cut end-of-life suffering in half?

For me, none of those goals are onerous, so it’s a no-brainer. YMMV.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

I also can't speak for him but I don't think he literally wants to live 10 years less. I think he's like a lot of us, if given the option of keeping things we enjoy versus a slightly extended lifespan we will choose the former over the latter.

This makes no sense. You have no idea if this will shorten your life span or not but it's going to put you at risk for other diseases. And you may live longer than you think but end up with critical issues or diseases and then someone else has to take care you. "Living in the moment now" and eating "unhealthy" is extremely selfish because you really have no idea what the last 10 or 15 of your life is going to be like. You could be a burden on the family...who knows.

And I could also eat super healthy and have a stroke or contract some disease/cancer and someone has to take care of me.

There are no guarantees, but you can maximize the odds of a good outcome.

 

[Dan Lambskin]

And the angel of the lord came unto me
Snatching me up from my place of slumber
And took me on high and higher still
Until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself
And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own Midwest
And as we descended cries of impending doom rose from the soil
One thousand nay a million voices full of fear
And terror possessed me then
And I begged Angel of the Lord what are these tortured screams?
And the angel said unto me
These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!
You see, Reverend Maynard
Tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust
And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat
Like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared
"Hear me now, I have seen the light!
They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul!
Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!
Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus
This is necessary
This is necessary
Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on
This is necessary
This is necessary
Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

I also can't speak for him but I don't think he literally wants to live 10 years less. I think he's like a lot of us, if given the option of keeping things we enjoy versus a slightly extended lifespan we will choose the former over the latter.

This makes no sense. You have no idea if this will shorten your life span or not but it's going to put you at risk for other diseases. And you may live longer than you think but end up with critical issues or diseases and then someone else has to take care you. "Living in the moment now" and eating "unhealthy" is extremely selfish because you really have no idea what the last 10 or 15 of your life is going to be like. You could be a burden on the family...who knows.

And I could also eat super healthy and have a stroke or contract some disease/cancer and someone has to take care of me.

That's kind of a disingenuous logic.

It's akin to saying "why stay away from Heroin, when I can get hit by a bus tomorrow anyway."

 

[3C's]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

I also can't speak for him but I don't think he literally wants to live 10 years less. I think he's like a lot of us, if given the option of keeping things we enjoy versus a slightly extended lifespan we will choose the former over the latter.

This makes no sense. You have no idea if this will shorten your life span or not but it's going to put you at risk for other diseases. And you may live longer than you think but end up with critical issues or diseases and then someone else has to take care you. "Living in the moment now" and eating "unhealthy" is extremely selfish because you really have no idea what the last 10 or 15 of your life is going to be like. You could be a burden on the family...who knows.

And I could also eat super healthy and have a stroke or contract some disease/cancer and someone has to take care of me.

That's kind of a disingenuous logic.

It's akin to saying "why stay away from Heroin, when I can get hit by a bus tomorrow anyway."

If I get hit by a bus hopefully I'm on heroin.

 

[3C's]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

I also can't speak for him but I don't think he literally wants to live 10 years less. I think he's like a lot of us, if given the option of keeping things we enjoy versus a slightly extended lifespan we will choose the former over the latter.

The devil is in the details, of course.

If eliminating red meat, but still eating poultry/fish/eggs/dairy, extended your life a year and a half, would you do it?

If eating healthily, exercising, attaining ideal weight, not smoking, and reducing alcohol intake extended your life 5-12 years, would you adopt those behaviors?

What if those same behaviors increased your functional “healthspan” 5 years, and cut end-of-life suffering in half?

For me, none of those goals are onerous, so it’s a no-brainer. YMMV.

Easy answers for me since I barely eat red meat. I also have no desire to live past ~80 really. If eating healthily means always eating a "clean" diet and never eating the things I like I'll pass. I exercise, never smoked, drink in moderation; good enough for me.

 

[urbanhack]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

I also can't speak for him but I don't think he literally wants to live 10 years less. I think he's like a lot of us, if given the option of keeping things we enjoy versus a slightly extended lifespan we will choose the former over the latter.

The devil is in the details, of course.

If eliminating red meat, but still eating poultry/fish/eggs/dairy, extended your life a year and a half, would you do it?

If eating healthily, exercising, attaining ideal weight, not smoking, and reducing alcohol intake extended your life 5-12 years, would you adopt those behaviors?

What if those same behaviors increased your functional “healthspan” 5 years, and cut end-of-life suffering in half?

For me, none of those goals are onerous, so it’s a no-brainer. YMMV.

Easy answers for me since I barely eat red meat. I also have no desire to live past ~80 really. If eating healthily means always eating a "clean" diet and never eating the things I like I'll pass. I exercise, never smoked, drink in moderation; good enough for me.

What if you still feel like you're 65 when you are 80 and your grandkids are wildly successful and you can still lead a great life? I see and meet lot's of older folks who are navigating the world successfully well past 80. :shurg:

 

[eoMMan]

I try to include more meatless meals but I’ll never go 100% meatless. I love different meat meals (steak, chicken parm, burgers, chicken fajitas, etc etc) way too much.

By the way, tofu has the texture of overcooked egg. They need to work on that.

 

[Keith R]

I've taken to not having "mammal meats" on consecutive days and limit my ground beef to 1 serving a month. If I lived somewhere else where seafood was plentiful and reasonably priced, I could eat fish 5+ times a week. Since I don't chicken is my staple. Don't like tofu and even if I did, I have a soy allergy.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

I also can't speak for him but I don't think he literally wants to live 10 years less. I think he's like a lot of us, if given the option of keeping things we enjoy versus a slightly extended lifespan we will choose the former over the latter.

The devil is in the details, of course.

If eliminating red meat, but still eating poultry/fish/eggs/dairy, extended your life a year and a half, would you do it?

If eating healthily, exercising, attaining ideal weight, not smoking, and reducing alcohol intake extended your life 5-12 years, would you adopt those behaviors?

What if those same behaviors increased your functional “healthspan” 5 years, and cut end-of-life suffering in half?

For me, none of those goals are onerous, so it’s a no-brainer. YMMV.

Easy answers for me since I barely eat red meat. I also have no desire to live past ~80 really. If eating healthily means always eating a "clean" diet and never eating the things I like I'll pass. I exercise, never smoked, drink in moderation; good enough for me.

What if you still feel like you're 65 when you are 80 and your grandkids are wildly successful and you can still lead a great life? I see and meet lot's of older folks who are navigating the world successfully well past 80. :shurg:

Yep. On the other hand, I’ve also seen many 40-50 year olds act like they’re 90.

Wanna guess how many of those people adopted the healthy habits I mentioned?

 

[3C's]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

I also can't speak for him but I don't think he literally wants to live 10 years less. I think he's like a lot of us, if given the option of keeping things we enjoy versus a slightly extended lifespan we will choose the former over the latter.

The devil is in the details, of course.

If eliminating red meat, but still eating poultry/fish/eggs/dairy, extended your life a year and a half, would you do it?

If eating healthily, exercising, attaining ideal weight, not smoking, and reducing alcohol intake extended your life 5-12 years, would you adopt those behaviors?

What if those same behaviors increased your functional “healthspan” 5 years, and cut end-of-life suffering in half?

For me, none of those goals are onerous, so it’s a no-brainer. YMMV.

Easy answers for me since I barely eat red meat. I also have no desire to live past ~80 really. If eating healthily means always eating a "clean" diet and never eating the things I like I'll pass. I exercise, never smoked, drink in moderation; good enough for me.

What if you still feel like you're 65 when you are 80 and your grandkids are wildly successful and you can still lead a great life? I see and meet lot's of older folks who are navigating the world successfully well past 80. :shurg:

You know I'm "old", but people are typically shocked to find out I'm a "senior citizen"/grandfather so I must be doing something right. But no, 80-85 is good enough for me.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I try to include more meatless meals but I’ll never go 100% meatless. I love different meat meals (steak, chicken parm, burgers, chicken fajitas, etc etc) way too much.

By the way, tofu has the texture of overcooked egg. They need to work on that.

There are many different tofu consistencies, but it will never be sinewy like meat.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I've been a meat every meal person my entire life. I recently started trying to do lunch without meat most days and it's been fine. I work from home so have a pretty solid rotation of meatless lunches now, usually some kind of soup.

I really love a good steak or hamburger, but have toyed with the idea of cutting out red meat outside of the occasional splurge at a nice steak/burger place. Partially for ethical reasons, especially out here in Utah where this is front and center as we're constantly dealing with major drought issues yet we use 70% of our water on growing alfalfa to feed cattle

My only concern with this is my brother did this a few years ago and eventually he went long enough between eating red meat that now if he does eat it on occasion his stomach has a really hard time with it, so he ended up just quitting it entirely.

 

[Dickies]

The hardest parts thru the years was people generally were dicks. You can not drink alcohol and nobody says anything, but you pass on some burger and you've insulted their mother and you'll get a lecture about evolution and teeth and how they could NEVER IMAGINE going even 8 hours without some meat.

I’ve had a similar experience. Which is kinda funny, as it’s a mirror-image of the sanctimonious, militant vegan stereotype everyone seems to despise.

FTR, I’ve met/known a few vegans over the years, and only one was lecturing others on their food choices. The rest just wanted to eat their meals in peace.

I've gone 100% plant based a few times in my life and have definitely experienced the meat eater version of the vegan stereotype. I don't think I've ever encountered the flipside, but have seen some cringeworthy videos online.

I think people have irrational hatred for certain groups and in my own personal experience vegans and cyclists stick out because I've experienced both.

 

[3C's]

cyclists

Only thing I really experienced was some jerk in a truck who got too close and yelled at me to ride on the sidewalk. When I caught him at a traffic light I had a nice discussion with him where I threatened to pull him out of his truck.

 

[General Malaise]

I try to include more meatless meals but I’ll never go 100% meatless. I love different meat meals (steak, chicken parm, burgers, chicken fajitas, etc etc) way too much.

By the way, tofu has the texture of overcooked egg. They need to work on that.

Well....I'd be curious how you are cooking your tofu or how the place that serves you the tofu is cooking it. I'm not a big breakfast eater, usually just an apple or an orange, maybe some peanut butter toast, black coffee. But on the weekends we usually do a big tofu scramble where the tofu comes out tasting like perfectly cooked eggs. YMMV.

I've grilled it, cooked it on the skillet, you name it, I think it's all in the way you prepare it. Buy extra firm, press it down before you cook it, etc....it'll soak up a marinade beautifully too.

 

[AAABatteries]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

I also can't speak for him but I don't think he literally wants to live 10 years less. I think he's like a lot of us, if given the option of keeping things we enjoy versus a slightly extended lifespan we will choose the former over the latter.

This makes no sense. You have no idea if this will shorten your life span or not but it's going to put you at risk for other diseases. And you may live longer than you think but end up with critical issues or diseases and then someone else has to take care you. "Living in the moment now" and eating "unhealthy" is extremely selfish because you really have no idea what the last 10 or 15 of your life is going to be like. You could be a burden on the family...who knows.

This opens a big can of worms, IMO. We do all kinds of risky things in our lives. Drugs, alcohol, diet, driving/driving recklessly, dangerous hobbies, living a sedentary lifestyle and on and on. To single out somebody who eats meat as being selfish seems a tad arbitrary (to me). Would you say the same to someone who eats dessert every day?

 

[the moops]

I try to include more meatless meals but I’ll never go 100% meatless. I love different meat meals (steak, chicken parm, burgers, chicken fajitas, etc etc) way too much.

By the way, tofu has the texture of overcooked egg. They need to work on that.

Well....I'd be curious how you are cooking your tofu or how the place that serves you the tofu is cooking it. I'm not a big breakfast eater, usually just an apple or an orange, maybe some peanut butter toast, black coffee. But on the weekends we usually do a big tofu scramble where the tofu comes out tasting like perfectly cooked eggs. YMMV.

I've grilled it, cooked it on the skillet, you name it, I think it's all in the way you prepare it. Buy extra firm, press it down before you cook it, etc....it'll soak up a marinade beautifully too.

Freeze the tofu first. For real. It really improves the texture (not that I mind the texture at all)

 

[urbanhack]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

I also can't speak for him but I don't think he literally wants to live 10 years less. I think he's like a lot of us, if given the option of keeping things we enjoy versus a slightly extended lifespan we will choose the former over the latter.

This makes no sense. You have no idea if this will shorten your life span or not but it's going to put you at risk for other diseases. And you may live longer than you think but end up with critical issues or diseases and then someone else has to take care you. "Living in the moment now" and eating "unhealthy" is extremely selfish because you really have no idea what the last 10 or 15 of your life is going to be like. You could be a burden on the family...who knows.

This opens a big can of worms, IMO. We do all kinds of risky things in our lives. Drugs, alcohol, diet, driving/driving recklessly, dangerous hobbies, living a sedentary lifestyle and on and on. To single out somebody who eats meat as being selfish seems a tad arbitrary (to me). Would you say the same to someone who eats dessert every day?

I'm saying it's the attitude regardless of what you are consuming that we know has adverse affects. The mindset that you don't give a **** what happens to you or your body is selfish as we know that others will be left to clean up your ****, pay your bills and suffer with you if in fact that is what happens.

 

[Ron Swanson]

I used to be a big beef and pork eater for just about every meal. These days I'm probably 90% seafood and chicken. Still a little pork but beef is much more rare. Mostly because my wife doesn't digest it well and when cooking for two it's easier to just skip it unless I'm doing beef ribs or a brisket for a gathering. I've also found myself eating meatless for several meals each week. Not intentionally, just because some of the recipes I really enjoy are meatless.

Where do insects fall on the vegetarian/vegan scale? Crickets and grasshoppers are becoming pretty popular and aren't bad in taco form.

 

[General Malaise]

Yet none of the latter group is begging for a burger on their deathbed; most want more time.

And I'm sure vegetarians aren't begging for brussel sprouts either. Most people on their deathbed want more time, their diet has no bearing.

Agree 100%.

That’s precisely my point - it’s easy to prioritize unhealthy habits now, in exchange for time that becomes much more precious at life’s end.

I'm going to enjoy life now, while I'm still young (I'm not young really) and if that means having an occasional burger/pizza/beer so be it and I won't regret it later. I have 0 desire to live longer if it means not enjoying life now. I'm not going to eat bacon every day because I know that would be detrimental to long term health but I'm also not going to completely abstain from it either. Which is snellman's point.

I don’t think anyone is advocating strict veganism in this thread, nor condemning an occasional burger or beer. On the flip side, multiple people have implied life can’t be enjoyed without them, likely without even giving the alternatives a chance.

While I can’t speak for snellman, his meat consumption seemed a lot more than occasional: “I am meat every meal”. And explicitly said he’d rather live 10 less years than change it. The latter statement prompted my posts, as I believe the premise is faulty.

I also can't speak for him but I don't think he literally wants to live 10 years less. I think he's like a lot of us, if given the option of keeping things we enjoy versus a slightly extended lifespan we will choose the former over the latter.

This makes no sense. You have no idea if this will shorten your life span or not but it's going to put you at risk for other diseases. And you may live longer than you think but end up with critical issues or diseases and then someone else has to take care you. "Living in the moment now" and eating "unhealthy" is extremely selfish because you really have no idea what the last 10 or 15 of your life is going to be like. You could be a burden on the family...who knows.

This opens a big can of worms, IMO. We do all kinds of risky things in our lives. Drugs, alcohol, diet, driving/driving recklessly, dangerous hobbies, living a sedentary lifestyle and on and on. To single out somebody who eats meat as being selfish seems a tad arbitrary (to me). Would you say the same to someone who eats dessert every day?

I'm saying it's the attitude regardless of what you are consuming that we know has adverse affects. The mindset that you don't give a **** what happens to you or your body is selfish as we know that others will be left to clean up your ****, pay your bills and suffer with you if in fact that is what happens.

Death with Dignity should be available in all states to everybody and it shouldn't be that damn hard to access. If I want to die peacefully in my sleep like a dog who is on his last days, I should have that right and it shouldn't be difficult to access. Let me go. Don't take care of my dying body and rotting mind. Off. I want off when I want off.

 

[General Malaise]

I used to be a big beef and pork eater for just about every meal. These days I'm probably 90% seafood and chicken. Still a little pork but beef is much more rare. Mostly because my wife doesn't digest it well and when cooking for two it's easier to just skip it unless I'm doing beef ribs or a brisket for a gathering. I've also found myself eating meatless for several meals each week. Not intentionally, just because some of the recipes I really enjoy are meatless.

Where do insects fall on the vegetarian/vegan scale? Crickets and grasshoppers are becoming pretty popular and aren't bad in taco form.

The Mariners' have been offering fried grasshoppers in chili lime sauce for years. Not horrible. Not sure I'd order again, but I'd rather eat those than a hot dog. Those about the worst thing a human can eat.