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Tavon Austin (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter JAA
- Start date
TwinTurbo
Footballguy
Tavon is naturally much closer to the ground than Marvin, so yeah maybe that will work.
ROYALWITCHEESE
Footballguy
He's awesome. He doesn't need live action reps to be the top WR in the league. No need to waste him in preseason.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Agreed, but Austin is a rookie and he does need the reps.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
five and a half minute rookie profile, with some material i hadn't seen before... the interview with his mother was cool (when asked what he wanted to do at 7, he said NFL 
)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9sp7g8XdIc
some would question the need for prep highights, i don't look at them very often except for occasional, elite, blue chip prospects...
his ability to withstand the punishment has been rightly questioned... i looked at trent richardson and eddie lacy prep highlights, and they predictably looked like men among boys... but sometimes the way they score is going through nearly the entire defense and breaking like 10 tackles... different kind of impressive, but a lot of the times, austin isn't even touched...
no doubt, he will get touched, and a lot, at the next level... but he may not absorb shots of the severity or with the frequency of guys like lacy (he is a RB)... but even compared to peers and counterparts at same position, like a keenan allen...
nearly 11 minute highlight, starts about 50 second mark (like the beats, kind of inexorable groove that synchs up with open field plays inevitably getting taken to the house)... nice okie doke move to sideline contain defender at 1:55... at 2:20, sets up and toys with trailing defender by changing speeds (definitely has another, nitrous gear in open field)... 3:35 - flashes barry sanders like vision, instincts, field awareness/peripheral vision/proximity sense, balance, stop-start and cutting ability, and general elusiveness... 5:10 - impressive punt return score, eludes multiple defenders that at sideline despite their having angle... 6:25 - not touched on weaving, broken field run, shows signature, trademark burst and suddenness...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBjUKd0lOEE
)...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9sp7g8XdIc
some would question the need for prep highights, i don't look at them very often except for occasional, elite, blue chip prospects...
his ability to withstand the punishment has been rightly questioned... i looked at trent richardson and eddie lacy prep highlights, and they predictably looked like men among boys... but sometimes the way they score is going through nearly the entire defense and breaking like 10 tackles... different kind of impressive, but a lot of the times, austin isn't even touched...
no doubt, he will get touched, and a lot, at the next level... but he may not absorb shots of the severity or with the frequency of guys like lacy (he is a RB)... but even compared to peers and counterparts at same position, like a keenan allen...
nearly 11 minute highlight, starts about 50 second mark (like the beats, kind of inexorable groove that synchs up with open field plays inevitably getting taken to the house)... nice okie doke move to sideline contain defender at 1:55... at 2:20, sets up and toys with trailing defender by changing speeds (definitely has another, nitrous gear in open field)... 3:35 - flashes barry sanders like vision, instincts, field awareness/peripheral vision/proximity sense, balance, stop-start and cutting ability, and general elusiveness... 5:10 - impressive punt return score, eludes multiple defenders that at sideline despite their having angle... 6:25 - not touched on weaving, broken field run, shows signature, trademark burst and suddenness...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBjUKd0lOEE
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ROYALWITCHEESE
Footballguy
Maybe we can find his Optimist highlights.five and a half minute rookie profile, with some material i hadn't seen before... the interview with his mother was cool (when asked what he wanted to do at 7, he said NFL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9sp7g8XdIc
some would question the need for prep highights, i don't look at them very often except for occasional, elite, blue chip prospects...
his ability to withstand the punishment has been rightly questioned... i looked at trent richardson and eddie lacy prep highlights, and they predictably looked like men among boys... but sometimes the way they score is going through nearly the entire defense and breaking like 10 tackles... different kind of impressive, but a lot of the times, austin isn't even touched...
no doubt, he will get touched, and a lot, at the next level... but he may not absorb shots of the severity or with the frequency of guys like lacy (he is a RB)... but even compared to peers and counterparts at same position, like a keenan allen...
nearly 11 minute highlight, starts about 50 second mark (like the beats, kind of inexorable groove that synchs up with open field plays inevitably getting taken to the house)... nice okie doke move to sideline contain defender at 1:55... at 2:20, sets up and toys with trailing defender by changing speeds (definitely has another, nitrous gear in open field)... 3:35 - flashes barry sanders like vision, instincts, field awareness/peripheral vision/proximity sense, balance, stop-start and cutting ability, and general elusiveness... 5:10 - impressive punt return score, eludes multiple defenders that at sideline despite their having angle... 6:25 - not touched on weaving, broken field run, shows signature, trademark burst and suddenness...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBjUKd0lOEE
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Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Then he catches a quick out, fakes a defender out of his jock and runs for a 1st down. Quick as a hiccup.
HurryUpSundays
Footballguy
Only 1 target in the passing game. Hmm.
Todem
Footballguy
Oh....just wait. Regular season...this kid will shine. He is an electric playmaker. A star in the making.
HurryUpSundays
Footballguy
1 target in the dress rehearsal is worrisome, imo. Clearly he is a talent and will thrive when he has the ball in his mitts, but he certainly isn't yet being used in the Amendola role as many had predicted.
Todem
Footballguy
He is a rookie. In a dynasty....he is a great pick. People are far to impatient.
Not every first year WR with a high draft pick pedigree pay immediate dividends.
He will improve as the season wears on.....year two this kid will be a special player. He will make some huge plays this year as well. But he needs to learn the pro game.
Not every first year WR with a high draft pick pedigree pay immediate dividends.
He will improve as the season wears on.....year two this kid will be a special player. He will make some huge plays this year as well. But he needs to learn the pro game.
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Junior McSpiffy
Footballguy
The Rams are hyper-focused on not tipping their hand in any way (offense or defense). Anything they may try to do to help him get open (line up anywhere but as a slot guy), it ain't happening for two more weeks.
That may be because Schotty has only one creative idea in his head and doesn't want people to have it solved until week three....
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shader
Footballguy
He probably doesn't understand the Amendola role yet. He will in time. Looks unbelievable.
Faust
MVP
silentcoach
Footballguy
He will get the targets for sure. Whether he will be efficient with them is a whole other question.
Khy
Footballguy
Honestly, seeing him perform in those punt returns is a solid metric for me. You can see how explosive he is in space at the NFL speed. Obviously it's an incredibly small sample size. I'd be shocked if Austin didn't do great on his touches. He's going to see some returns (helps in my one league where we count KR/PR yardage), he'll probably see 25-50 rushing attempts throughout the season and he'll likely see 60-90 receptions. Yes these are big gaps but obviously it's tough to completely gauge. I'd say he has a high end WR3/Flex floor with high end WR2 upside though.
Rick James
Footballguy
So if you're in the Tavon Austin thread I assume you know at least a little about the STL offense as a whole. How do you think Austin (and the change in scheme, new players) will effect Bradford's stats? Does he have 4000/30 in him this year?
Khy
Footballguy
I'm incredibly high on Bradford this year personally. I think he absolutely has 4000/30 production available to him this season. Last year he put up... 3700/21/13 with literally zero receiving threats on the team short of Amendola for a few games. This year his weapons are massively improved. I'd say his floor this year is around 3800/25/14. But I think he slips into the mid-low QB1 range around 4200/29/14.
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Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
I guess time will tell but I'm not too concerned about this. If Welker can get open all the time, Austin certainly can also. They won't let him get locked up by CBs. His quicks in confined space out of the slot are ridiculous and they can do other things to keep him clean -- put him in motion, every screen pass imaginable.... hell, throw him the ball behind the LOS if you have to. My biggest concern is his slight frame. I know he's got a great track record of answering the bell, but this is Big Boy football now. When he really gets blasted for the first time, I'll be holding my breath.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
I said it in the preseason thread... he's the Rodney Dangerfield of this draft. He may be the best value on the board at ANY position.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
How are his weapons massively improved? The best WR they had is gone. Sure, Givens is likely to be improved. How much? Tavon Austin could be good, but that is an unknown. Jared Cook looks great, but he has perpetually disappointed throughout his career. I'm not sure that is massive improvement enough to give him a nearly 20% improvement over last year.
Man of Zen
Footballguy
He's also got one of the premiere LT's in football giving him time to throw now, a system custom tailored to his strengths, and a sketchy running game that's going to almost force him to pass.
No single one of the things you or I listed is going to make him jump up on its own. But add them together, and I think there's a real chance at some uptick.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
The new scheme is promising. I am not sure a sketchy run game is a good thing for a QB. As for Jake Long being a premier LT, is that why the Dolphins let him ago? Is that what teams do with young elite LTs? There was a good amount of talk out of Miami last year that Jake Long was busted.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
amendola is best WR? you could use the same logic there as you did with jake long... why did rams let him go?Ilov80s said:
he missed five games in 2012 and 15 games in 2011? even in 2010, the only season he played 16 games, he failed to crack 700 yards... if he can stay healthy, he could be pretty good, but that has been the problem... he has had some brutal yard per reception averages during his career...
how much is givens improved? as a rookie he was 42-698-3... would it really be a huge stretch if he ups his reception totals above 46-50 receptions (representing 10-20% overall figure you threw out for bradford?)... dodds has him at 61-854-6, henry at 67-980-5... significantly higher than 20% increases across the board... you could be right, but your position may be more of an outlier than you realize...
why did cook disappoint? did he get a chance and fail on the field... or did he not get the opportunity... maybe they thought he was liability as blocker? why would the rams pay him one of biggest contracts ever for position... only to not give him the opportunity and not use him, because he is blocking liability? i don't know about you, but to me it is clear the rams intend to use cook more than he has ever been used in past, when he was misused by titans... to be mired in the past when titans were misusing him, is imo missing the point of why the rams are so excited to have him... there may have been times in past when there was an occasional rumbling that this was going to be cook's year in TEN... but can you ever remember a time when they said he would be the focal point of their offense... i don't think they ever did? so that could be an important difference, not just you, but imo a lot of people are overlooking...
cook's previous highs were 49-759-3 in 2011, but he was 44-523-4 in 2012 (that was in 13 games, so if he had played 16 games, his stats would have been better, and maybe he wouldn't be flying under the radar as much as he is now?)... 10-20% increases in receptions should not be that hard... dodds has him at 60-714-5, henry 62-760-6... imo those are conservative numbers, and they will be projecting him much higher this time next year...
there is no disputing jake long was a pro bowl caliber LT (4 X, 2 X all pro) before injuries last two years... decisions to re-sign a player aren't made in a vacuum, though you are right, letting an elite LT go would be uncommon... maybe similar situation was when an older willie roaf, don't recall if he had some down years due to injury or something else, was rejuevenated for a time in KC... jason peters, i think for contract reasons, went from BUF to PHI, and he is one of best when healthy, so it does happen, maybe more than we remember, as it is generally exception... MIA extended hartline... spent a ton on wallace, also a lot on LBs ellerbe and wheeler, just extended safety reshad jones, sometimes a team has to prioritize, coupled with probable health concerns, i can see why long term committment may not have made sense to them... and they may regret that decision if long stars for next half decade, and dolphins have trouble filling that slot with comparble talent (he was former #1 overall pedigree)...
i think we can assume rams medical staff vetted him, maybe because they were in a different place and highly motivated to land a POTENTIALLY elite LT if healthy (as far as i know, really the only question with long - he is only 28, should be in his relative prime?), they were a bit less risk averse than dophins... his 2011 and 2012 seasons ended with torn biceps and triceps, respectively, no idea if these were related, or either or both carry additional risk of reccuring injury... have to think the rams explored this... keep in mind, he doesn't have to necessarily perform at an all pro level to be big upgrade... fisher only little over a year ago took over a historically bad team (15-75 previous five years), and a big part of the problem was putrid OL play (aggravated by injuries and not having depth through incompetent free agency, draft, trade acquisitions from previous front offices and coaching staffs)... if long can play at some semblance of prior form, and with his acquisition allowing saffold to move to RT, that strengthens and stabilizes both positions... they also got free agent center wells in 2012, dahl has been pretty good RG, chris williams looks like upgrade at LG, so they actually could be better almost across the board relative to pre-fisher era (dahl was there last year, so was wells, but he missed a lot of games)...
* edit/add - the defense seems improved, as well... there is the hope the defense will get the ball back to the offense more quickly, and in better scoring position... this isn't even mentioning ST yet, where austin should be one of the best punt returners in franchise history...
i get what you said about austin being an unknown... but to be fair, he is an unknown that was consensus top skill position player in draft... eifert and bernard are unknowns, but most prgnosicators expect bengals to improve primarily because of the infusion of talent they represent (that may be primary reason many pick them to win AFC North?)... most people agree hopkins is best WR2 texans have had, despite fact he is unknown... lacy looks like the most talented RB packers have had since ahman green, he is unknown...
most people i know in fantasy drafts (redrafts, i should say, in dynasty, after initial draft, rookie drafts only kind), don't have philosophy of not taking rookies because they are unknowns... of course they are, and sometimes they disappoint, but they can also offer tremendous value if you are ahead of the curve and have a sense of which ones will tranlate best and soonest... it comes down to what you think... respectfully, a generic, abstract "unknown" critique or blanket dismissal doesn't give a sense of what you really think about austin (or why?)... that is one of the things we do in this hobby, right? we have to figure out WHICH rookies are more likely to excel or disappoint...
admittedly, i tend to like rookie RBs well positioned to succeed better than WRs, but austin is exception... highest pedigree skill position from class, by all accounts coming from camp, he and cook will be co-focal points...
** not exactly related, just a little background here that may only be meaningful to me...
but one time i was exploring the relative merits of emmitt smith and barry sanders, and some took offense to my pointing out smith may have had big OL advantage... i asked some to "imagine" they switched places, and one poster just completely refused... i think it was because they wouldn't, not couldn't... to me, with the draft changing teams, free agency, trades, that is one of the main things fantasy football players HAVE to do, to do this well... we constantly have to use our imagination to project how old faces in new places, or new faces in old places, project to do?for instance, vet WR greg jennings not immune to this process... big difference going from GB and QB rodgers to MIN and ponder, so no matter how well reasoned, involving conjecture... admittedly more uncertainty with rookie, at least jennings has proven he can play at a high level in NFL... this is one of the funnest aspects of the game, nobody really KNOWS how jennings will do in MIN... some projections will prove more accurate (maybe more in line with contemporary, ie - quantum era, physics, this process should be thought of as probablility clouds, as opposed to clockwork, billiard ball destinies)... tic tac toe isn't nearly as fun or interesting or challenging as fantasy football... the probablility spaces are massively squashed in comparison...
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It's also not like Miami has built this powerhouse team based on tons of good decisions either. It's kind of odd for someone to hold them in this all knowing "light" as if they have.
Team ROFLCOPTERS
Footballguy
Miami offered Jake Long 250k less than the Rams offered. Long chose the rams. Miami didn't let him go.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
austin part of a trend... if he succeeds at a high level, his timing will have been impeccable, and could represent the latest culmination of years of rules changes favoring offense... also as a dimunitive WR, recent rule changes focused on player safety, protection and health...
may have been pointed out upthread, but the periodic "arms race escalations" of size at WR and CB position wax and wane seem to be cyclical in nature... there was a time in 70s/80s when CBs were getting bigger, than redskins (perhaps better known for hulking WRs like art monk) unleashed the smurfs... broncos had three amigos... falcons had the red gun with metcalf, emanual and mathis...
mission one is always to win your division... "undersized", fast and or quick WRs like givens, austin and bailey could be a broadside attack on seahawks big CBs sherman and browner, it will be an interesting experiment in the NFL laboratory to see how SEA CBs cope with STL WRs... rams do have some size, also, with TE cook and WRs quick and pettis... it is all about creating mismatches, sometimes this could be dictated by down and distance, where they are in field (red zone?)... givens, austin and cook will be on the field a lot together, and should be able to create a lot of mismatches...
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000237874/article/tavon-austin-among-influx-of-playmakers-in-percy-harvins-mold
Tavon Austin among influx of playmakers in Percy Harvin's mold
By Albert Breer
NFL Media reporter
Published: Sept. 4, 2013 at 12:58 p.m. Updated: Sept. 4, 2013 at 06:53 p.m.
It all started with a lie.
The reason Tavon Austin chose to attend West Virginia in the first place was because the coaches said he could play the position he played in high school -- tailback. But then Austin showed up for his first camp in Morgantown four years ago and ... was listed as a slot receiver.
"Some people told me what I wanted to hear," the current Rams rookie said with a smile after a recent practice in St. Louis. "(Then North Carolina coach) Butch Davis told me he only viewed me as a slot receiver. Georgia came down, wanted me to play DB. I wanted to be a running back, but I really wanted to go to North Carolina, so if Butch Davis gave me a chance at running back, I would've gone there. But he didn't lie to me, kept it real, and that's why I went to West Virginia."
West Virginia coach Bill Stewart's staff limited Austin to playing the slot and returning kicks in his first two years, in part because the Mountaineers already had Noel Devine in a slash role. But when Dana Holgorsen took over for Stewart in 2011, things started to change. By the time Austin's senior year rolled around, he was playing at tailback -- and virtually everywhere else.
Last fall, Austin piled up 1,289 receiving yards, 978 return yards and 643 rushing yards, scoring a total of 17 touchdowns. What was once Austin's perceived weakness -- he was seen as a smaller player who couldn't fit into one of traditional football's roles -- became his greatest strength.
On draft day this year, the Rams forked over multiple picks to move up eight spots and take the 5-foot-8, 172-pound stick of dynamite with the eighth overall selection, ahead of every other skill-position player on the board. St. Louis general manager Les Snead said he never felt a need to put Austin in a box, explaining: "It seems like I've heard 'offensive weapon' ... But it's really looking and saying, 'Can we get a mismatch?' "
The prevalence of the spread offense in college has given rise to the jack-of-all-trades weapon. Because of the built-in flexibility and movement that come with both the pass-heavy and run-heavy schemes, the player who arrives from high school with the "athlete" designation next to his name might not be compartmentalized as much as he would have been in the past.
Among those in the first wave of these athletes to come into the NFL, Percy Harvin had the highest profile. Austin is this year's shiny new model. And rest assured, there are more to come.
"It's one of those deals where, if your farm system, quote-unquote, is running that offense, then you better find a way to use those players, because that's what they just had four years of experience doing," said Tampa Bay Buccaneers coach Greg Schiano, who spent 11 years combatting such attacks at Rutgers. "And yes, you can get them to do some things that maybe they're not accustomed to doing. But the things they're gonna do naturally when they get here are things that they've done."
Learning to think big
The problem for Andrew Hawkins was timing.
The Cincinnati Bengals' 5-7, 180-pound playmaker (who's currently rehabbing an ankle injury and has been placed on injured reserve with the designation to return tag) flashed multi-purpose potential in college. He was the first two-way player the University of Toledo had seen in four decades, and he brought 4.3 speed to his pre-draft workouts back in 2008. But NFL clubs weren't quite sure what to make of him.
Hawkins went undrafted and didn't even get an invite to a training camp. Instead, he headed to the Canadian Football League, where the wider, longer field with more spread-out hashmarks -- plus the genius of then-Montreal Alouettes coach Marc Trestman -- created the right environment in which to foster his skills. After helping Montreal to back-to-back Grey Cup titles, Hawkins finally got a legit shot in the NFL, landing with Cincy in 2011. Last season, he ranked third on the Bengals in catches (51), receiving yards (533) and touchdown receptions (four).
"The league was different five years ago. They weren't taking chances on 5-foot-7 guys," Hawkins said. "You had to be a punt returner or a kick returner. ... I did some kick return, and I've never returned punts in my life. But before, if you weren't that, if you weren't Dante Hall or the rest of the 5-7, 5-8 guys returning kicks, then there wasn't a place for you in the league."
The transformation mirrors what has happened with mobile quarterbacks -- NFL coordinators have become more flexible in adapting their offenses to what their playmakers did as collegians.
The example of Harvin is probably the best one. At Florida, the receiver lined up in the backfield -- next to Tim Tebow -- on a fairly regular basis. Over the past two seasons in the NFL, Harvin averaged three carries per game -- not an enormous number, but a significant one for a player not listed as a back on a team, the Minnesota Vikings, that also featured the best ball carrier in the business in Adrian Peterson.
The next step of this story comes with the Seattle Seahawks' acquisition via trade of Harvin in March. The Seattle brass saw the less-traditional strengths of his game as an enormous asset, something that could conjure nightmare scenarios for defensive coaches trying to prepare for him.
That's quite a change, given that not so long ago, as Hawkins said, it was considered a nightmare for offensive coaches to try to find a role for a guy like Harvin.
"Percy's different, because we've seen what he can do," Seattle general manager John Schneider said. "They line up with him at the 4-yard line last year, and they hand him the ball out of the 'I'; they got him in the slot; they're playing him outside. We've seen it. He was a pretty easy guy to scout for us in the pros, and in terms of our acquisition process and how we evaluated him."
The key is having a plan. Seahawks offensive coordinator Darrell Bevell coached Harvin in Minnesota, so clearly he had an idea, before Harvin went down with a serious hip injury that currently has him on the PUP list, about how to put one together. But those don't always work out.
'You need a plan'
Some scouts saw University of Texas athlete Marquise Goodwin as a poor man's Austin -- a smaller player with world-class speed capable of changing a game in a half-dozen seconds. And Goodwin teased as a Longhorn, though he never had more than 33 catches in a season. That statistic glares back at you when you consider that Austin posted consecutive 100-catch seasons and had 72 carries as a senior.
Goodwin might actually be a tick faster than Austin, according to evaluators, while Austin has superior short-area quickness and instincts. But the biggest difference was the way the two were used in the Big 12.
"You need a plan, and you have to know going in," said one area scout who is assigned to the Big 12. "Some guys, you can say, 'This one's an X' or 'This one's a Y' or 'This one's a slot and we're gonna use him in the return game.' You can categorize most guys as possession or speed receivers, because they have the dimensions, the height, weight and speed in a range. With these guys, you don't meet those guidelines, so you have to do extra. Otherwise, you're potentially gonna waste a pick.
"Texas didn't have a plan with Goodwin. And that could happen again in the NFL, because you can't just treat him like any receiver."
Goodwin, in that sense, might have been fortunate to land with the Buffalo Bills. That team features a new staff coming straight from the college game, with ideas of how these players are to be used.
"The NFL's becoming a lot more involved in the spread, but if you're not involved, like we're not involved, then it's hard to evaluate those guys," Bengals offensive coordinator Jay Gruden said. "But when you have a gifted athlete like that, who had so much success at the college level, if you wanna take a chance with him, then you should have to have a plan for him, whether it's a spread offense or you try him at halfback or you try him at receiver or slot.
"It might take a year or two, but great athletes are great athletes. They're hard to find."
'He's electrically fast'
Rams coach Jeff Fisher recently said on the Jim Rome Show that Austin has "not had a lot of production in the preseason, only because it makes sense to hold those types of things for the regular season."
That seemingly straightforward quote is loaded with meaning -- mostly that the Rams' shiny new toy is currently best cloaked in ambiguity. Fisher has a plan, as does offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer, who years ago had to get creative when incorporating college quarterback Brad Smith into the New York Jets' offense. It's similar to the challenge facing the Jacksonville Jaguars with quarterback-turned-offensive-weapon Denard Robinson.
And of course, these players aren't all alike. Some played quarterback in college. Others, like Harvin, are bigger. But they generally do have one thing in common.
"(Harvin) has an extraordinary trait -- his speed," Schiano said. "So even though he may not have played in a conventional offense in college, he still had that trait. ... Tavon Austin, I coached against him, he's got a very distinguishable trait. He's electrically fast. That, to me, is the deal, when you say, 'Can they?' Sure you can. You can do a lot of things."
The issue can be the point of diminishing returns. Using players in more ways means they're placed in the line of fire more often.
A lack of size can compound the problem. Players like Austin and Harvin are shouldering a sizable load from the slot, which demands running directly into the land of hulking linebackers and heat-seeking safeties. The best ones have a knack for avoiding direct hits -- think Wes Welker, or Barry Sanders back in the day -- but most wind up eventually paying a price. It's not hard to find examples; both Harvin and Hawkins are on the shelf now. And it's not just the injury risk, either.
"(They can be) hard to scout, because you don't get to see anyone jam the (crap) out of them," Schneider said. "How's he gonna react when he comes on a drag, and all of the sudden, there is a safety there that's pretty damn fast? You catch a pass, and he knocks the (crap) out of you; how are you gonna react? Those are the things. Do you always have to bring him in motion to get separation? If you have to do that, that's fine.
"But that type of player, can he just go out there and play 'X,' or do you have to have a plan? And are you willing to do that with guys? You have to have a staff that's willing to be creative, and if you don't, the value of the player isn't as high."
Of course, these days, you see an increasing number of coaches willing to invest the time. In fact, Snead pointed out that you might see more inventiveness at the high school level than anywhere else. That has trickled up. Gus Malzahn went from Springdale (Ark.) High to the University of Arkansas, becoming offensive coordinator there in 2006 and bringing the Wildcat to the college game. The Clemson team that lit up Georgia last Saturday? Its offensive commander, Chad Morris, went from Lake Travis (Texas) High to Tulsa to Clemson in the span of 12 months.
As colleges borrow from high schools, the pros are borrowing from colleges. That's where one finds the link between the first superstar of this genre and the latest prodigy.
Making matchup magic
The do-everything role wasn't an easy sell on Harvin in high school. Like most kids, the teenager envisioned growing up at a specific position -- tailback -- rather than several.
Landstown (Va.) coach Chris Beatty convinced Harvin before his sophomore year that he'd be that much more effective if the staff could maximize his skill in the passing game. It worked out. As Beatty said, "He went to Florida, and they did the exact same thing with him." That gave the people in Minnesota the bright idea that it might be smart to keep playing to his strengths.
A couple of years later, Beatty landed at West Virginia, where he helped recruit Austin. Austin said Beatty told him he was "the closest to Percy that he'd seen." So in this case, it wasn't nearly as hard to coax the athlete to be just that -- an athlete -- rather than stick to a static role as a receiver or back.
"You always gotta have a person in the league that shows teams that it can be done," Austin said. "He's not labeled as a true wide receiver, but he still has success. And that just opened it for me and guys like me. So when (Oregon's De'Anthony Thomas) comes out, he's similar to me, so now it's up to me to keep the train moving, and hopefully he'll be successful, too."
Thomas, a junior for the Ducks, is just one potential "next big thing." Maryland sophomore Stefon Diggs is another. And there will be more.
As offenses continue to evolve, so will the roles of the players within them. That's not to say these guys will be everywhere, but the ones who are good enough now have an outlet with which to show they are.
"I hear so many people say, 'He plays the Percy Harvin role; he's a Percy Harvin-type player,' " Beatty said. "Ain't a whole lot of Percy Harvin-type players. There's only one I've seen, and that's Tavon."
And in this case, it's about more than just speed. It's also about the ability to escape defenders and avoid hits. You have to see the field like a tailback and read it like a receiver, and you have to have the smarts to absorb an offense from several different spots, with reps split up among those positions.
Add all it up, and it's a lot to ask. The end result, though, is even more to handle for a defense.
"You don't know how to match up, personnel-wise," said Beatty, now the receivers coach at Wisconsin. "If he's in the backfield, how do you match up if you motion him out? Do you play nickel? If you move him out to receiver, there's a nickel guy out there who's a mismatch. If he's in the backfield, he creates mismatches, because you have two backs back there. What personnel do you put on the field?
"(Austin) creates a ton of matchups, and Percy's the same way. I watched a couple of (Vikings) games, and you think, How do you match up when you've got two backs back there? Do you play base personnel? If you play base, then you motion him out to the slot; now how are you gonna match up? It's a definite issue for defensive coordinators."
Four years after he insisted on getting a shot at tailback, Austin found himself saying this to NFL teams in pre-draft interviews: "Whatever position y'all want me to play, I'll play."
By then, he'd learned that the more he could do, the more valuable he'd be. It seems like all of pro football has learned that, too.
may have been pointed out upthread, but the periodic "arms race escalations" of size at WR and CB position wax and wane seem to be cyclical in nature... there was a time in 70s/80s when CBs were getting bigger, than redskins (perhaps better known for hulking WRs like art monk) unleashed the smurfs... broncos had three amigos... falcons had the red gun with metcalf, emanual and mathis...
mission one is always to win your division... "undersized", fast and or quick WRs like givens, austin and bailey could be a broadside attack on seahawks big CBs sherman and browner, it will be an interesting experiment in the NFL laboratory to see how SEA CBs cope with STL WRs... rams do have some size, also, with TE cook and WRs quick and pettis... it is all about creating mismatches, sometimes this could be dictated by down and distance, where they are in field (red zone?)... givens, austin and cook will be on the field a lot together, and should be able to create a lot of mismatches...
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000237874/article/tavon-austin-among-influx-of-playmakers-in-percy-harvins-mold
Tavon Austin among influx of playmakers in Percy Harvin's mold
By Albert Breer
NFL Media reporter
Published: Sept. 4, 2013 at 12:58 p.m. Updated: Sept. 4, 2013 at 06:53 p.m.
It all started with a lie.
The reason Tavon Austin chose to attend West Virginia in the first place was because the coaches said he could play the position he played in high school -- tailback. But then Austin showed up for his first camp in Morgantown four years ago and ... was listed as a slot receiver.
"Some people told me what I wanted to hear," the current Rams rookie said with a smile after a recent practice in St. Louis. "(Then North Carolina coach) Butch Davis told me he only viewed me as a slot receiver. Georgia came down, wanted me to play DB. I wanted to be a running back, but I really wanted to go to North Carolina, so if Butch Davis gave me a chance at running back, I would've gone there. But he didn't lie to me, kept it real, and that's why I went to West Virginia."
West Virginia coach Bill Stewart's staff limited Austin to playing the slot and returning kicks in his first two years, in part because the Mountaineers already had Noel Devine in a slash role. But when Dana Holgorsen took over for Stewart in 2011, things started to change. By the time Austin's senior year rolled around, he was playing at tailback -- and virtually everywhere else.
Last fall, Austin piled up 1,289 receiving yards, 978 return yards and 643 rushing yards, scoring a total of 17 touchdowns. What was once Austin's perceived weakness -- he was seen as a smaller player who couldn't fit into one of traditional football's roles -- became his greatest strength.
On draft day this year, the Rams forked over multiple picks to move up eight spots and take the 5-foot-8, 172-pound stick of dynamite with the eighth overall selection, ahead of every other skill-position player on the board. St. Louis general manager Les Snead said he never felt a need to put Austin in a box, explaining: "It seems like I've heard 'offensive weapon' ... But it's really looking and saying, 'Can we get a mismatch?' "
The prevalence of the spread offense in college has given rise to the jack-of-all-trades weapon. Because of the built-in flexibility and movement that come with both the pass-heavy and run-heavy schemes, the player who arrives from high school with the "athlete" designation next to his name might not be compartmentalized as much as he would have been in the past.
Among those in the first wave of these athletes to come into the NFL, Percy Harvin had the highest profile. Austin is this year's shiny new model. And rest assured, there are more to come.
"It's one of those deals where, if your farm system, quote-unquote, is running that offense, then you better find a way to use those players, because that's what they just had four years of experience doing," said Tampa Bay Buccaneers coach Greg Schiano, who spent 11 years combatting such attacks at Rutgers. "And yes, you can get them to do some things that maybe they're not accustomed to doing. But the things they're gonna do naturally when they get here are things that they've done."
Learning to think big
The problem for Andrew Hawkins was timing.
The Cincinnati Bengals' 5-7, 180-pound playmaker (who's currently rehabbing an ankle injury and has been placed on injured reserve with the designation to return tag) flashed multi-purpose potential in college. He was the first two-way player the University of Toledo had seen in four decades, and he brought 4.3 speed to his pre-draft workouts back in 2008. But NFL clubs weren't quite sure what to make of him.
Hawkins went undrafted and didn't even get an invite to a training camp. Instead, he headed to the Canadian Football League, where the wider, longer field with more spread-out hashmarks -- plus the genius of then-Montreal Alouettes coach Marc Trestman -- created the right environment in which to foster his skills. After helping Montreal to back-to-back Grey Cup titles, Hawkins finally got a legit shot in the NFL, landing with Cincy in 2011. Last season, he ranked third on the Bengals in catches (51), receiving yards (533) and touchdown receptions (four).
"The league was different five years ago. They weren't taking chances on 5-foot-7 guys," Hawkins said. "You had to be a punt returner or a kick returner. ... I did some kick return, and I've never returned punts in my life. But before, if you weren't that, if you weren't Dante Hall or the rest of the 5-7, 5-8 guys returning kicks, then there wasn't a place for you in the league."
The transformation mirrors what has happened with mobile quarterbacks -- NFL coordinators have become more flexible in adapting their offenses to what their playmakers did as collegians.
The example of Harvin is probably the best one. At Florida, the receiver lined up in the backfield -- next to Tim Tebow -- on a fairly regular basis. Over the past two seasons in the NFL, Harvin averaged three carries per game -- not an enormous number, but a significant one for a player not listed as a back on a team, the Minnesota Vikings, that also featured the best ball carrier in the business in Adrian Peterson.
The next step of this story comes with the Seattle Seahawks' acquisition via trade of Harvin in March. The Seattle brass saw the less-traditional strengths of his game as an enormous asset, something that could conjure nightmare scenarios for defensive coaches trying to prepare for him.
That's quite a change, given that not so long ago, as Hawkins said, it was considered a nightmare for offensive coaches to try to find a role for a guy like Harvin.
"Percy's different, because we've seen what he can do," Seattle general manager John Schneider said. "They line up with him at the 4-yard line last year, and they hand him the ball out of the 'I'; they got him in the slot; they're playing him outside. We've seen it. He was a pretty easy guy to scout for us in the pros, and in terms of our acquisition process and how we evaluated him."
The key is having a plan. Seahawks offensive coordinator Darrell Bevell coached Harvin in Minnesota, so clearly he had an idea, before Harvin went down with a serious hip injury that currently has him on the PUP list, about how to put one together. But those don't always work out.
'You need a plan'
Some scouts saw University of Texas athlete Marquise Goodwin as a poor man's Austin -- a smaller player with world-class speed capable of changing a game in a half-dozen seconds. And Goodwin teased as a Longhorn, though he never had more than 33 catches in a season. That statistic glares back at you when you consider that Austin posted consecutive 100-catch seasons and had 72 carries as a senior.
Goodwin might actually be a tick faster than Austin, according to evaluators, while Austin has superior short-area quickness and instincts. But the biggest difference was the way the two were used in the Big 12.
"You need a plan, and you have to know going in," said one area scout who is assigned to the Big 12. "Some guys, you can say, 'This one's an X' or 'This one's a Y' or 'This one's a slot and we're gonna use him in the return game.' You can categorize most guys as possession or speed receivers, because they have the dimensions, the height, weight and speed in a range. With these guys, you don't meet those guidelines, so you have to do extra. Otherwise, you're potentially gonna waste a pick.
"Texas didn't have a plan with Goodwin. And that could happen again in the NFL, because you can't just treat him like any receiver."
Goodwin, in that sense, might have been fortunate to land with the Buffalo Bills. That team features a new staff coming straight from the college game, with ideas of how these players are to be used.
"The NFL's becoming a lot more involved in the spread, but if you're not involved, like we're not involved, then it's hard to evaluate those guys," Bengals offensive coordinator Jay Gruden said. "But when you have a gifted athlete like that, who had so much success at the college level, if you wanna take a chance with him, then you should have to have a plan for him, whether it's a spread offense or you try him at halfback or you try him at receiver or slot.
"It might take a year or two, but great athletes are great athletes. They're hard to find."
'He's electrically fast'
Rams coach Jeff Fisher recently said on the Jim Rome Show that Austin has "not had a lot of production in the preseason, only because it makes sense to hold those types of things for the regular season."
That seemingly straightforward quote is loaded with meaning -- mostly that the Rams' shiny new toy is currently best cloaked in ambiguity. Fisher has a plan, as does offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer, who years ago had to get creative when incorporating college quarterback Brad Smith into the New York Jets' offense. It's similar to the challenge facing the Jacksonville Jaguars with quarterback-turned-offensive-weapon Denard Robinson.
And of course, these players aren't all alike. Some played quarterback in college. Others, like Harvin, are bigger. But they generally do have one thing in common.
"(Harvin) has an extraordinary trait -- his speed," Schiano said. "So even though he may not have played in a conventional offense in college, he still had that trait. ... Tavon Austin, I coached against him, he's got a very distinguishable trait. He's electrically fast. That, to me, is the deal, when you say, 'Can they?' Sure you can. You can do a lot of things."
The issue can be the point of diminishing returns. Using players in more ways means they're placed in the line of fire more often.
A lack of size can compound the problem. Players like Austin and Harvin are shouldering a sizable load from the slot, which demands running directly into the land of hulking linebackers and heat-seeking safeties. The best ones have a knack for avoiding direct hits -- think Wes Welker, or Barry Sanders back in the day -- but most wind up eventually paying a price. It's not hard to find examples; both Harvin and Hawkins are on the shelf now. And it's not just the injury risk, either.
"(They can be) hard to scout, because you don't get to see anyone jam the (crap) out of them," Schneider said. "How's he gonna react when he comes on a drag, and all of the sudden, there is a safety there that's pretty damn fast? You catch a pass, and he knocks the (crap) out of you; how are you gonna react? Those are the things. Do you always have to bring him in motion to get separation? If you have to do that, that's fine.
"But that type of player, can he just go out there and play 'X,' or do you have to have a plan? And are you willing to do that with guys? You have to have a staff that's willing to be creative, and if you don't, the value of the player isn't as high."
Of course, these days, you see an increasing number of coaches willing to invest the time. In fact, Snead pointed out that you might see more inventiveness at the high school level than anywhere else. That has trickled up. Gus Malzahn went from Springdale (Ark.) High to the University of Arkansas, becoming offensive coordinator there in 2006 and bringing the Wildcat to the college game. The Clemson team that lit up Georgia last Saturday? Its offensive commander, Chad Morris, went from Lake Travis (Texas) High to Tulsa to Clemson in the span of 12 months.
As colleges borrow from high schools, the pros are borrowing from colleges. That's where one finds the link between the first superstar of this genre and the latest prodigy.
Making matchup magic
The do-everything role wasn't an easy sell on Harvin in high school. Like most kids, the teenager envisioned growing up at a specific position -- tailback -- rather than several.
Landstown (Va.) coach Chris Beatty convinced Harvin before his sophomore year that he'd be that much more effective if the staff could maximize his skill in the passing game. It worked out. As Beatty said, "He went to Florida, and they did the exact same thing with him." That gave the people in Minnesota the bright idea that it might be smart to keep playing to his strengths.
A couple of years later, Beatty landed at West Virginia, where he helped recruit Austin. Austin said Beatty told him he was "the closest to Percy that he'd seen." So in this case, it wasn't nearly as hard to coax the athlete to be just that -- an athlete -- rather than stick to a static role as a receiver or back.
"You always gotta have a person in the league that shows teams that it can be done," Austin said. "He's not labeled as a true wide receiver, but he still has success. And that just opened it for me and guys like me. So when (Oregon's De'Anthony Thomas) comes out, he's similar to me, so now it's up to me to keep the train moving, and hopefully he'll be successful, too."
Thomas, a junior for the Ducks, is just one potential "next big thing." Maryland sophomore Stefon Diggs is another. And there will be more.
As offenses continue to evolve, so will the roles of the players within them. That's not to say these guys will be everywhere, but the ones who are good enough now have an outlet with which to show they are.
"I hear so many people say, 'He plays the Percy Harvin role; he's a Percy Harvin-type player,' " Beatty said. "Ain't a whole lot of Percy Harvin-type players. There's only one I've seen, and that's Tavon."
And in this case, it's about more than just speed. It's also about the ability to escape defenders and avoid hits. You have to see the field like a tailback and read it like a receiver, and you have to have the smarts to absorb an offense from several different spots, with reps split up among those positions.
Add all it up, and it's a lot to ask. The end result, though, is even more to handle for a defense.
"You don't know how to match up, personnel-wise," said Beatty, now the receivers coach at Wisconsin. "If he's in the backfield, how do you match up if you motion him out? Do you play nickel? If you move him out to receiver, there's a nickel guy out there who's a mismatch. If he's in the backfield, he creates mismatches, because you have two backs back there. What personnel do you put on the field?
"(Austin) creates a ton of matchups, and Percy's the same way. I watched a couple of (Vikings) games, and you think, How do you match up when you've got two backs back there? Do you play base personnel? If you play base, then you motion him out to the slot; now how are you gonna match up? It's a definite issue for defensive coordinators."
Four years after he insisted on getting a shot at tailback, Austin found himself saying this to NFL teams in pre-draft interviews: "Whatever position y'all want me to play, I'll play."
By then, he'd learned that the more he could do, the more valuable he'd be. It seems like all of pro football has learned that, too.
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Nice article Bob. I think Fisher has kept a lot of this offense from being seen so far. It is going to be exciting to see them finally take the tarp off this DeLorean.
I was listening to Patterson talk about himself and Austin some time back. What Patterson was talking about is receivers do not like to be touched. That is how he tries to play and praised Austin for this ability as well.
Now obviously at some point he will get touched, but the guy is a dynamo with the ball in his hands. I do not think a defensive co-ordinator will want to ask his defense to make 8-12 tackles in space against this guy. That seems like a bad situation for them. I think they will try to jam Austin with LB and DBs. Try to get him off his routes early if they can and make Bradford look somewhere else. All of that attention will leave the defense thin in other areas that the Rams can exploit then.
I was listening to Patterson talk about himself and Austin some time back. What Patterson was talking about is receivers do not like to be touched. That is how he tries to play and praised Austin for this ability as well.
Now obviously at some point he will get touched, but the guy is a dynamo with the ball in his hands. I do not think a defensive co-ordinator will want to ask his defense to make 8-12 tackles in space against this guy. That seems like a bad situation for them. I think they will try to jam Austin with LB and DBs. Try to get him off his routes early if they can and make Bradford look somewhere else. All of that attention will leave the defense thin in other areas that the Rams can exploit then.
Art Vandalay
Footballguy
I hope when he does nothing week on offense people will come to their senses. D. WIlson T Austin and L Miller gonna suck and these boards are going to be filled with denile come Monday.
Touchdown Syndrome
Footballguy
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
I STILL think the guy is overdrafted with this 'underuse' preseason talk. (ADP 7.05 in PPR. Drafts since 8.25.13) going before Cook (9.02) & Givens (9.11). http://football.myfantasyleague.com/2013/adp?COUNT=500&POS=*&CUTOFF=5&FRANCHISES=12&IS_PPR=1&IS_KEEPER=0&IS_MOCK=0&TIME=1377403200
I really like what I see from Givens -- flashed big time last year. I think he'll only become more polished with time. Like Bradford, year 2 in the offense. Austin will most definitely have his moments. I think he'll need growth time physically to become a consistent force.
I really like what I see from Givens -- flashed big time last year. I think he'll only become more polished with time. Like Bradford, year 2 in the offense. Austin will most definitely have his moments. I think he'll need growth time physically to become a consistent force.
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
another possibility is that in retrospect we say austin went about where he should have... but cook and givens were grossly under drafted?though they have different skill sets, i'd return to the example of the falcons for an example or contemporary precedent of a passing attack that can support three high level receiving weapons.
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Man of Zen
Footballguy
Too many question marks for me to consider him where he's going, given the type of talent I can take at that point in the draft instead. But I'm damn interested in seeing him play on the field.
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
I guess anything is possible in regards to Austin, but I then look at Lance Moore, Cecil Shorts, Miles Austin, Greg Jennings (and I don't even have high hopes for him at 30 with Ponder), Mike Williams, Gordon, Boldin.
Do I really think Austin should be going ahead of these types (and supporting the notion someone like Givens AND Cook are underdrafted?). If all that happens, Sam Bradford is in for one hell of a year....
PPR: Speaking of underdrafted and Ram, Darryl Richardson may the most underdrafted of them all if he's getting all down work + goalline.
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
i do think cook and givens should be going higher, i can understand and respect the scepticism surrounding austin, he is a speculative play on several levels (not just kept under wraps argument, but the fact that there aren't a lot of comps that come immediately to mind with his physical dimensions that have translated well from college to NFL) that requires almost an act of faith and conviction that his electric combination of speed, quickness and elusiveness will surmount lack of size obstacles/objections...
from bernie miklasz article -
"Other than pure excitement, I don't know what to expect from rookie WR Tavon Austin, but in the 10-year period ending in 2012, 470 rookie wide receivers saw action in the NFL regular-season, and only 26 of the 470 accumulated 750 or more receiving yards."
so it would seem on average, 2.6 rookie WRs with 750+ yards per year...
intuitively, it would seem this number might be going up, as surging passing stats are trending up across the league in general (and this should favor the most talented rookies compared to peers and counterparts from a decade ago)...
in 2012...
blackmon - 865 (on 64 receptions)
hilton - 861 (on 50 receptions)
gordon - 805 (also on 50 receptions)
in FBG default scoring (non PPR), they finished #28, #25 and #37 respectively... you could probably make a case that if floyd had been used as much from the start in ARI in 2012 as austin is expected to in STL in 2013, he might have crashed the 750+ party as well?
i'm curious how many rookie WRs in past decade have met reception targets for PPR purposes...
64+?
80+?
because if he gets 64 (and certainly 80+), he should exceed 750+ yards...
not sure, but i think austin led ncaa WRs in 2012 in YAC (but that may speak to volume ((sort of like bell leading ncaa RBs in yards after contact with high volume)), 100+ receptions in 2011 & 2012?)...
* BTW department...
coming up with a comp for austin has been about as elusive as austin himself in the open field... harvin is bigger, as is even the smaller cobb (two commonly cited comps, at least functionally, based on expected usage, athletic versatility and positional flexibility to fill multiple roles/positions like WR, RB & returner)...
though a stretch based on height at 5'11" (austin 5'8"), vikings great AC, anthony carter, i think played in NFL at about 170 lbs, and was only about 160 lbs when he started at michigan... three X all american and pro bowler (maybe more, if not for spending time in USFL)... admittedly a different era and defenders no doubt smaller on average than today (though there was the occasional lester hayes
)...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Carter_(American_football)
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karmarooster
Footballguy
Three words: Ted Ginn, Jr.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
below is ginn's resume... there could be some important differences which make that a cavalier dismissal (though they were selected only one pick apart in their respective drafts)...
i think ginn may have been more raw on offense, though he did play QB and WR in high school (austin may have been a raw WR entering west virginia, as i think he was RB as prep, but he obviously caught on quickly)... he was USA Today Defensive Player of the Year as DB... he also competed at a high level in track (national champion in 110 m. hurdles as junior)... like RGIII, he was olympic caliber hurdler...
if you look at his receiving stats coming out of ohio state, he wasn't as productive as austin, seemingly drafted more on potential (maybe with emphasis on ST? seems high, but elite return artists like devin hester in his prime worth a lot, though probably not 1.9)... austin was drafted based on legit productivity (and everthing the organization has said would lead us to think they have far bigger plans for him than just a return weapon, though that will comprise a part of his value, and he could do a lot of damage from there, as harvin and peterson have in recent years)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Ginn,_Jr.
"OSU track coach Russ Rogers recruited Ginn to run track, believing that he could qualify for the 2008 Olympics.[2] However, his track career was put on hold in order to focus on football. Ginn was recruited as a defensive back by Ohio State.
As a freshman, Ginn saw moderate playing time at receiver and finished the 2004 season with 25 receptions for 359 yards and 2 touchdowns. He also rushed for 113 yards and 2 touchdowns on the ground, led the nation with a 25.6 yards per punt return average, and returned four punts for touchdowns (which broke a Big Ten Conference record first set by Gene Derricotte in 1947 that was later tied twice).[3] One of the most memorable moments in his freshman season was in the 30-7 win over Indiana. A pass at the beginning of the first quarter was tipped by a diving Buster Larkins, only to be grabbed by Ginn. He then broke four tackles on his way to a 59 yard touchdown.[4]
Ginn earned a spot as the Buckeyes Starting receiver his sophomore year in 2005. He finished the season with 51 receptions for 803 yards and four touchdowns. He also returned 18 kickoffs for 532 yards, along with 25 punts for 250 yards.
Entering the 2006 season, Ginn was considered by many to be a preseason candidate for the Heisman Trophy and the Biletnikoff Award. He was a second team All-American selection and finished as the Buckeyes top receiver with 59 catches for 781 yards, while adding another 706 yards and two touchdowns on special teams. Ginn returned the opening kickoff of the 2007 BCS National Championship Game for 92 yards and a touchdown. Ginn sprained his left foot when fellow Buckeye Roy Hall slid into him during the celebration following the touchdown and sat on his foot. He left the game soon after and didn't return.[5]
Ginn finished his career at Ohio State with 125 receptions for 1,943 yards and 15 touchdowns in 37 games. He also rushed for 213 yards, returned 38 kickoffs for 1,012 yards, and gained 900 yards on 64 punt returns, the second highest total in Ohio State history. Overall, he gained 4,068 total yards and scored 26 touchdowns.[6]
He set a Big Ten record for most career punt return touchdowns with 6."
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karmarooster
Footballguy
No, I prefer the SEC. I understand that Ginn is a long-strider with long speed and not as much of a quickster, but the rallying cry around Austin is "he's the only tiny little WR/Return specialist to be drafted so high!" Well, Miami burned a top 10 pick on a extremely fast 5'11'' 175 lb. WR who was supposed to contribute to a large extent in the return game. I seriously doubt Austin flames out as hard as Ginn, but the draft pick/speed/size comparison was what occurred to me.
Also, wasn't Ginn some kind of track star? To continue, there are some similarities in Smith/Austin/Dobson to Smith/Ginn/(whatever that bald white WR's name was who played on the Colts for a bit... Hernandez?), plus the fact that both played in overrated conferences against non-SEC defenses.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
What does Dobson have to do with anything?
karmarooster
Footballguy
Er, sorry, I always get him confused with Bailey.
ETA - and the answer to "What does Bailey have to do with anything?," the answer is two fold. One is the rather weak argument of "productivity" pointed out on the last page in college. Bailey blows his production out of the water. The other is that a strong college offense with an athletic QB and two sick WRs (at the college level) can lead to exaggerated expectations in the NFL for sub-180 pound WRs.
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