Teacher's Seniority (1 Viewer)

[jonessed]

Cons to being a teacher:

1. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are awful.

2. Ceilings on compensation

3. Hard work not often financially rewarded

4. Rigid work schedule

Pros to being a teacher:

1. Substantial job security

2. Floors on compensation and structured pay increases

3. Immediate rewards/gratification

4. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are great

5. Substantial time off

My wife, mother, sister, brother in law & best friend are teachers. I've discussed more about teaching than I have my own profession. The job, like any other, has trade offs. I'm sure there are other pros/cons teachers could come up with, but these are the big ones.

All that said, I'm fairly certain that grade school PE is the easiest gig in the world for the money.

Those cons apply to most jobs.

Not to the level of a teacher. I meet and have to manage hundreds of new people every year. They don't get fired unless they have a weapon or drugs which means even if the kid is intentionally trying to sabotage my work environment, I have to try and make it work. Also, I can't just go to the bathroom if I need to or take a 2 minutes to compose myself/rest/get a snack. The kids bombard you all day long.

There are a lot of crappy jobs out there without the perks of teaching. At least the kids can't fire you.

 

[Jayrod]

I get what Hooper is saying. I too have taught high school math for 22 years albeit at a private school so I am less able to move the discussion forward in many respects. I'll also mention that February and March are often considered the roughest months of the year so maybe he deserves some slack. Anyway, I come at it this way: walk a week in our shoes. Or even a day. Find a local private school and tell them you want to substitute in your area of expertise. Many independent schools have a sub shortage so you might be surprised how marketable you are, plus no certifications are required. Then come back and let us know how it goes. Heck, you might even stumble on your next career. This reply is somewhat directed at the poster who suggested that elementary PE must be a cakewalk. I've never done it, but I have worked at a computer as an actuarial analyst and I can tell you which day would be the cakewalk. 20 bellowing, high pitched kids with access to objects intended to be thrown? No thanks.

Actuarial analyst? So that's the same skill level, same pros cons? That's so apples to oranges it isn't even funny.

Compare a PE teacher to a classroom teacher in the elementary school and you'll see what I mean. My wife teaches 2nd grade and I know 4 PE teachers. She works 10x's harder for the exact same pay scale and work schedule.

 

[MCguidance]

Just read this in the local paper. Nothing new to add to this discussion but figured I would post it

http://www.lohud.com/story/news/education/2015/03/11/education-reform-leaves-teachers-feeling-attack/70154532/

Waahhh teaching isn't fun anymore. Welcome to the real world where work sucks and processes and procedures change for the worse all the time for various reasons.

There is a lot of blame thrown at teachers that is misdirected. There are a lot of parents who need to turn off TV and actually take an interest in their child's education. All of this is a given and it can be quite an obstacle to overcome as a teacher. But when you are in a well compensated position, and let's call it what it is here,the expectations go up and you are going to be held to higher standards than the burger flipper at McDonalds.

I'm not quite sure what you are arguing here. Are you saying that teachers need to stop whining about teacher reform?

From the article:

"My job has changed three times in the last five years due to staffing cuts," she said. "It's hard to work your butt off and feel like there's less appreciation."

"It used to be fun," she said. "The fun is not in the teaching (anymore), the fun is in making the relationships with the students because the Common Core has taken the fun out of the teaching."

That is for my comment about teachers crying and work being different and less fun than in the past. Otherwise I actually agree with the teacher complaints over common core testing being a major scoring component in grading teachers being BS. Not all classes are the same level and not all kids are prepared for learning the same way and to have the teacher who gets the smart class always get stellar scores while the teacher of the developmentally disabled and/or immigrant kids will get crushed by testing scores which will not be a true representation of their teaching skills.

If someone came into your work (or anyone's work) and fundamentally altered it in a way that was unrecognizable, what do you say? Do you say, "Wow this #### tastes like ice cream!!!" If yes, carry on.

 

[pecorino]

I get what Hooper is saying. I too have taught high school math for 22 years albeit at a private school so I am less able to move the discussion forward in many respects. I'll also mention that February and March are often considered the roughest months of the year so maybe he deserves some slack. Anyway, I come at it this way: walk a week in our shoes. Or even a day. Find a local private school and tell them you want to substitute in your area of expertise. Many independent schools have a sub shortage so you might be surprised how marketable you are, plus no certifications are required. Then come back and let us know how it goes. Heck, you might even stumble on your next career. This reply is somewhat directed at the poster who suggested that elementary PE must be a cakewalk. I've never done it, but I have worked at a computer as an actuarial analyst and I can tell you which day would be the cakewalk. 20 bellowing, high pitched kids with access to objects intended to be thrown? No thanks.

Actuarial analyst? So that's the same skill level, same pros cons? That's so apples to oranges it isn't even funny.Compare a PE teacher to a classroom teacher in the elementary school and you'll see what I mean. My wife teaches 2nd grade and I know 4 PE teachers. She works 10x's harder for the exact same pay scale and work schedule.

Just saying that "the easiest gig in the world" is definitely NOT teaching Elementary PE . I'd say, for me, actuarial work would be so much easier. Or dozens of other jobs. GB the teachers in your life. Those gigs probably are tougher than doing PE in lots of ways.

 

[MCguidance]

You take this very personally. I'm pretty sure most in here have agreed that teachers should make good livings. Most reasonable posters in here haven't claimed they don't work hard or don't do a tough and important job.

Most of the teachers in here have been very reasonable and have avoided dripping sarcasm or defensiveness or rhetorical questions. Don't know why you've gotta drag the conversation down. You seem to be very experienced and have at times in this thread contributed interesting and informed posts. Hope you continue to do so.

Of course I take it personally. You're talking about my job. You're talking about me. How can that not be personal? And who do you take the time to chastise? Me. Right. You aren't expending the energy to talk down to anyone else that obviously thinks I'm underworked and overpaid. Your wasting your time talking to me like I'm a child.

I tire of these discussions. I always regret posting in them. Teachers don't start these threads. Teachers aren't whining about their salaries. Teachers aren't telling you that they don't want to be evaluated. We're fine with the idea of firing any poor teachers. This notion of tenure isn't what the OP thinks it is. Further, that line of great teachers waiting to take the place the bad ones doesn't exist.

Good night, and good luck.

Really? C'mon. Teachers unions are the closest thing to pure evil in American politics, and they do all the things you listed above.

I have to be in the union in my district to have a job. Does that mean I'm evil (LOL)? I am a resident of the same state of our current person living in the White House. Does that make me stupid? Why pile all teachers into a group because of the dopey lobbyists that represent us? I would rather not deal with a union that protects bad teachers. I think I would make more too.

I don't think you'd make more, actually. It seems, like most people in unions, your problem is not with the union but with people not doing their jobs to remove people from their position. If you had a strong administrator/administration, those people would likely not be in your building.

 

[MCguidance]

Cons to being a teacher:

1. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are awful.

2. Ceilings on compensation

3. Hard work not often financially rewarded

4. Rigid work schedule

Pros to being a teacher:

1. Substantial job security

2. Floors on compensation and structured pay increases

3. Immediate rewards/gratification

4. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are great

5. Substantial time off

My wife, mother, sister, brother in law & best friend are teachers. I've discussed more about teaching than I have my own profession. The job, like any other, has trade offs. I'm sure there are other pros/cons teachers could come up with, but these are the big ones.

All that said, I'm fairly certain that grade school PE is the easiest gig in the world for the money.

Those cons apply to most jobs.

Not to the level of a teacher. I meet and have to manage hundreds of new people every year. They don't get fired unless they have a weapon or drugs which means even if the kid is intentionally trying to sabotage my work environment, I have to try and make it work. Also, I can't just go to the bathroom if I need to or take a 2 minutes to compose myself/rest/get a snack. The kids bombard you all day long.

There are a lot of crappy jobs out there without the perks of teaching. At least the kids can't fire you.

There are a lot of jobs out there without the cons of teaching, too. At least you don't have the parents of your customers calling you up and complaining.

 

[jonessed]

Cons to being a teacher:

1. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are awful.

2. Ceilings on compensation

3. Hard work not often financially rewarded

4. Rigid work schedule

Pros to being a teacher:

1. Substantial job security

2. Floors on compensation and structured pay increases

3. Immediate rewards/gratification

4. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are great

5. Substantial time off

My wife, mother, sister, brother in law & best friend are teachers. I've discussed more about teaching than I have my own profession. The job, like any other, has trade offs. I'm sure there are other pros/cons teachers could come up with, but these are the big ones.

All that said, I'm fairly certain that grade school PE is the easiest gig in the world for the money.

Those cons apply to most jobs.

Not to the level of a teacher. I meet and have to manage hundreds of new people every year. They don't get fired unless they have a weapon or drugs which means even if the kid is intentionally trying to sabotage my work environment, I have to try and make it work. Also, I can't just go to the bathroom if I need to or take a 2 minutes to compose myself/rest/get a snack. The kids bombard you all day long.

There are a lot of crappy jobs out there without the perks of teaching. At least the kids can't fire you.

There are a lot of jobs out there without the cons of teaching, too. At least you don't have the parents of your customers calling you up and complaining.

Why would the parents of customers call? The customers would just call themselves if they had a complaint. You aren't making any sense.

 

[MCguidance]

Cons to being a teacher:

1. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are awful.

2. Ceilings on compensation

3. Hard work not often financially rewarded

4. Rigid work schedule

Pros to being a teacher:

1. Substantial job security

2. Floors on compensation and structured pay increases

3. Immediate rewards/gratification

4. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are great

5. Substantial time off

My wife, mother, sister, brother in law & best friend are teachers. I've discussed more about teaching than I have my own profession. The job, like any other, has trade offs. I'm sure there are other pros/cons teachers could come up with, but these are the big ones.

All that said, I'm fairly certain that grade school PE is the easiest gig in the world for the money.

Those cons apply to most jobs.

Not to the level of a teacher. I meet and have to manage hundreds of new people every year. They don't get fired unless they have a weapon or drugs which means even if the kid is intentionally trying to sabotage my work environment, I have to try and make it work. Also, I can't just go to the bathroom if I need to or take a 2 minutes to compose myself/rest/get a snack. The kids bombard you all day long.

There are a lot of crappy jobs out there without the perks of teaching. At least the kids can't fire you.

There are a lot of jobs out there without the cons of teaching, too. At least you don't have the parents of your customers calling you up and complaining.

Why would the parents of customers call? The customers would just call themselves if they had a complaint. You aren't making any sense.

Exactly. I don't deal with kids that fire me. I deal with a community of well educated professionals that expect demand every single action to be on point. I can't imagine this district without tenure to protect it's teachers.

 

[pack100]

I get what Hooper is saying. I too have taught high school math for 22 years albeit at a private school so I am less able to move the discussion forward in many respects. I'll also mention that February and March are often considered the roughest months of the year so maybe he deserves some slack. Anyway, I come at it this way: walk a week in our shoes. Or even a day. Find a local private school and tell them you want to substitute in your area of expertise. Many independent schools have a sub shortage so you might be surprised how marketable you are, plus no certifications are required. Then come back and let us know how it goes. Heck, you might even stumble on your next career. This reply is somewhat directed at the poster who suggested that elementary PE must be a cakewalk. I've never done it, but I have worked at a computer as an actuarial analyst and I can tell you which day would be the cakewalk. 20 bellowing, high pitched kids with access to objects intended to be thrown? No thanks.

Actuarial analyst? So that's the same skill level, same pros cons? That's so apples to oranges it isn't even funny.

Compare a PE teacher to a classroom teacher in the elementary school and you'll see what I mean. My wife teaches 2nd grade and I know 4 PE teachers. She works 10x's harder for the exact same pay scale and work schedule.

Come live in an elementary PE teachers shoes before you say that. Now High School PE teacher I could agree with but elementary is a turnstile of kids in and out the door, zero breaks between classes (Pee when you can), eat lunch and the turnstyles open again. Not to mention 400 students, 400 report cards and lots of noise, on your feet all day…Not as easy as it looks. Why would your wife not switch to PE if it is so easy?

 

[MCguidance]

I get what Hooper is saying. I too have taught high school math for 22 years albeit at a private school so I am less able to move the discussion forward in many respects. I'll also mention that February and March are often considered the roughest months of the year so maybe he deserves some slack. Anyway, I come at it this way: walk a week in our shoes. Or even a day. Find a local private school and tell them you want to substitute in your area of expertise. Many independent schools have a sub shortage so you might be surprised how marketable you are, plus no certifications are required. Then come back and let us know how it goes. Heck, you might even stumble on your next career. This reply is somewhat directed at the poster who suggested that elementary PE must be a cakewalk. I've never done it, but I have worked at a computer as an actuarial analyst and I can tell you which day would be the cakewalk. 20 bellowing, high pitched kids with access to objects intended to be thrown? No thanks.

Actuarial analyst? So that's the same skill level, same pros cons? That's so apples to oranges it isn't even funny.

Compare a PE teacher to a classroom teacher in the elementary school and you'll see what I mean. My wife teaches 2nd grade and I know 4 PE teachers. She works 10x's harder for the exact same pay scale and work schedule.

Come live in an elementary PE teachers shoes before you say that. Now High School PE teacher I could agree with but elementary is a turnstile of kids in and out the door, zero breaks between classes (Pee when you can), eat lunch and the turnstyles open again. Not to mention 400 students, 400 report cards and lots of noise, on your feet all day…Not as easy as it looks. Why would your wife not switch to PE if it is so easy?

I just had to sit in on a meeting with a principal, a high school PE teacher, and a family. The girl said the teacher was "Sexist. He expects the same thing from the girls and boys." The parents would not drop it and said the teacher was treating her poorly and demanded a switch. This is the type of thing you deal with in my district. it may seem ridiculous, but when the parents come in and they parse words and they want to see lesson plans, it makes the job of even a high school PE teacher very stressful. It's not just about classroom management and rolling out a kickball.

 

[Ilov80s]

Cons to being a teacher:

1. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are awful.

2. Ceilings on compensation

3. Hard work not often financially rewarded

4. Rigid work schedule

Pros to being a teacher:

1. Substantial job security

2. Floors on compensation and structured pay increases

3. Immediate rewards/gratification

4. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are great

5. Substantial time off

My wife, mother, sister, brother in law & best friend are teachers. I've discussed more about teaching than I have my own profession. The job, like any other, has trade offs. I'm sure there are other pros/cons teachers could come up with, but these are the big ones.

All that said, I'm fairly certain that grade school PE is the easiest gig in the world for the money.

Those cons apply to most jobs.

Not to the level of a teacher. I meet and have to manage hundreds of new people every year. They don't get fired unless they have a weapon or drugs which means even if the kid is intentionally trying to sabotage my work environment, I have to try and make it work. Also, I can't just go to the bathroom if I need to or take a 2 minutes to compose myself/rest/get a snack. The kids bombard you all day long.

There are a lot of crappy jobs out there without the perks of teaching. At least the kids can't fire you.

It's a great job, I love it. Sometimes, I just wish I could go to the bathroom.

 

[jonessed]

Cons to being a teacher:

1. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are awful.

2. Ceilings on compensation

3. Hard work not often financially rewarded

4. Rigid work schedule

Pros to being a teacher:

1. Substantial job security

2. Floors on compensation and structured pay increases

3. Immediate rewards/gratification

4. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are great

5. Substantial time off

My wife, mother, sister, brother in law & best friend are teachers. I've discussed more about teaching than I have my own profession. The job, like any other, has trade offs. I'm sure there are other pros/cons teachers could come up with, but these are the big ones.

All that said, I'm fairly certain that grade school PE is the easiest gig in the world for the money.

Those cons apply to most jobs.

Not to the level of a teacher. I meet and have to manage hundreds of new people every year. They don't get fired unless they have a weapon or drugs which means even if the kid is intentionally trying to sabotage my work environment, I have to try and make it work. Also, I can't just go to the bathroom if I need to or take a 2 minutes to compose myself/rest/get a snack. The kids bombard you all day long.

There are a lot of crappy jobs out there without the perks of teaching. At least the kids can't fire you.

There are a lot of jobs out there without the cons of teaching, too. At least you don't have the parents of your customers calling you up and complaining.

Why would the parents of customers call? The customers would just call themselves if they had a complaint. You aren't making any sense.

Exactly. I don't deal with kids that fire me. I deal with a community of well educated professionals that expect demand every single action to be on point. I can't imagine this district without tenure to protect it's teachers.

Just about every person I know deals with well educated professionals that demand they be on point. That's kind of what's required as a working professional.

 

[MCguidance]

Cons to being a teacher:

1. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are awful.

2. Ceilings on compensation

3. Hard work not often financially rewarded

4. Rigid work schedule

Pros to being a teacher:

1. Substantial job security

2. Floors on compensation and structured pay increases

3. Immediate rewards/gratification

4. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are great

5. Substantial time off

My wife, mother, sister, brother in law & best friend are teachers. I've discussed more about teaching than I have my own profession. The job, like any other, has trade offs. I'm sure there are other pros/cons teachers could come up with, but these are the big ones.

All that said, I'm fairly certain that grade school PE is the easiest gig in the world for the money.

Those cons apply to most jobs.

Not to the level of a teacher. I meet and have to manage hundreds of new people every year. They don't get fired unless they have a weapon or drugs which means even if the kid is intentionally trying to sabotage my work environment, I have to try and make it work. Also, I can't just go to the bathroom if I need to or take a 2 minutes to compose myself/rest/get a snack. The kids bombard you all day long.

There are a lot of crappy jobs out there without the perks of teaching. At least the kids can't fire you.

There are a lot of jobs out there without the cons of teaching, too. At least you don't have the parents of your customers calling you up and complaining.

Why would the parents of customers call? The customers would just call themselves if they had a complaint. You aren't making any sense.

Exactly. I don't deal with kids that fire me. I deal with a community of well educated professionals that expect demand every single action to be on point. I can't imagine this district without tenure to protect it's teachers.

Just about every person I know deals with well educated professionals that demand they be on point. That's kind of what's required as a working professional.

As it relates to their most precious commodity, their kids?

 

[jonessed]

Cons to being a teacher:

1. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are awful.

2. Ceilings on compensation

3. Hard work not often financially rewarded

4. Rigid work schedule

Pros to being a teacher:

1. Substantial job security

2. Floors on compensation and structured pay increases

3. Immediate rewards/gratification

4. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are great

5. Substantial time off

My wife, mother, sister, brother in law & best friend are teachers. I've discussed more about teaching than I have my own profession. The job, like any other, has trade offs. I'm sure there are other pros/cons teachers could come up with, but these are the big ones.

All that said, I'm fairly certain that grade school PE is the easiest gig in the world for the money.

Those cons apply to most jobs.

Not to the level of a teacher. I meet and have to manage hundreds of new people every year. They don't get fired unless they have a weapon or drugs which means even if the kid is intentionally trying to sabotage my work environment, I have to try and make it work. Also, I can't just go to the bathroom if I need to or take a 2 minutes to compose myself/rest/get a snack. The kids bombard you all day long.

There are a lot of crappy jobs out there without the perks of teaching. At least the kids can't fire you.

There are a lot of jobs out there without the cons of teaching, too. At least you don't have the parents of your customers calling you up and complaining.

Why would the parents of customers call? The customers would just call themselves if they had a complaint. You aren't making any sense.

Exactly. I don't deal with kids that fire me. I deal with a community of well educated professionals that expect demand every single action to be on point. I can't imagine this district without tenure to protect it's teachers.

Just about every person I know deals with well educated professionals that demand they be on point. That's kind of what's required as a working professional.

As it relates to their most precious commodity, their kids?

Money. For better or worse, a lot of people would consider that their most precious commodity. The two obviously intertwine though so maybe it doesn't matter.

 

[MCguidance]

Cons to being a teacher:

1. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are awful.

2. Ceilings on compensation

3. Hard work not often financially rewarded

4. Rigid work schedule

Pros to being a teacher:

1. Substantial job security

2. Floors on compensation and structured pay increases

3. Immediate rewards/gratification

4. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are great

5. Substantial time off

My wife, mother, sister, brother in law & best friend are teachers. I've discussed more about teaching than I have my own profession. The job, like any other, has trade offs. I'm sure there are other pros/cons teachers could come up with, but these are the big ones.

All that said, I'm fairly certain that grade school PE is the easiest gig in the world for the money.

Those cons apply to most jobs.

Not to the level of a teacher. I meet and have to manage hundreds of new people every year. They don't get fired unless they have a weapon or drugs which means even if the kid is intentionally trying to sabotage my work environment, I have to try and make it work. Also, I can't just go to the bathroom if I need to or take a 2 minutes to compose myself/rest/get a snack. The kids bombard you all day long.

There are a lot of crappy jobs out there without the perks of teaching. At least the kids can't fire you.

There are a lot of jobs out there without the cons of teaching, too. At least you don't have the parents of your customers calling you up and complaining.

Why would the parents of customers call? The customers would just call themselves if they had a complaint. You aren't making any sense.

Exactly. I don't deal with kids that fire me. I deal with a community of well educated professionals that expect demand every single action to be on point. I can't imagine this district without tenure to protect it's teachers.

Just about every person I know deals with well educated professionals that demand they be on point. That's kind of what's required as a working professional.

As it relates to their most precious commodity, their kids?

Money. For better or worse, a lot of people would consider that their most precious commodity. The two obviously intertwine though so maybe it doesn't matter.

Stop being silly.

 

[Ilov80s]

The money supports the kids so it's almost the same thing.

 

[bentley]

I'm fortunate to live in a school district that has many teachers who've won statewide and national awards for excellence. The school admin was able to select the teachers that excelled. I'm quite confident they're able to identify the teachers who are underperforming as well.

Shouldn't the teachers winning these awards/excelling be paid more, and be given better job security? Just as the teachers who aren't performing as well, be paid less and have less job security?

No. Most of the time those "awards for excellence" are bull####. Hell, almost all of the ones I've seen that teachers have to nominate and/or promote themselves. It's a joke.

This is true with almost every award. Being really good at completing the entry form is the main talent needed.

 

[Jayrod]

I get what Hooper is saying. I too have taught high school math for 22 years albeit at a private school so I am less able to move the discussion forward in many respects. I'll also mention that February and March are often considered the roughest months of the year so maybe he deserves some slack. Anyway, I come at it this way: walk a week in our shoes. Or even a day. Find a local private school and tell them you want to substitute in your area of expertise. Many independent schools have a sub shortage so you might be surprised how marketable you are, plus no certifications are required. Then come back and let us know how it goes. Heck, you might even stumble on your next career. This reply is somewhat directed at the poster who suggested that elementary PE must be a cakewalk. I've never done it, but I have worked at a computer as an actuarial analyst and I can tell you which day would be the cakewalk. 20 bellowing, high pitched kids with access to objects intended to be thrown? No thanks.

Actuarial analyst? So that's the same skill level, same pros cons? That's so apples to oranges it isn't even funny.

Compare a PE teacher to a classroom teacher in the elementary school and you'll see what I mean. My wife teaches 2nd grade and I know 4 PE teachers. She works 10x's harder for the exact same pay scale and work schedule.

Come live in an elementary PE teachers shoes before you say that. Now High School PE teacher I could agree with but elementary is a turnstile of kids in and out the door, zero breaks between classes (Pee when you can), eat lunch and the turnstyles open again. Not to mention 400 students, 400 report cards and lots of noise, on your feet all day…Not as easy as it looks. Why would your wife not switch to PE if it is so easy?

Did you miss the part about me knowing 4 PE teachers? 2 of them outright admitted their job was cake...especially compared to the classroom teachers.

And my wife doesn't switch because she is the best elementary classroom teacher in the district. She doesn't do it for the money or the benefits but genuinely loves her job.

Understood in the whole "teacher" thing is the idea that you can handle a room full of kids. If you take joe schmo actuary, then he'd probably have a much easier time at a desk by himself. But when you take into account the skills necessary, education needed and time commitments and then compare that with the pay they receive, PE is a great gig.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

The following post contains no shtick, no sarcasm, no defensiveness, no vitriol, and no condescention:

Comparing teaching to other private sector jobs doesn't really work. I know it should but it just doesn't.

We've covered this in several different threads over the years. And almost every time we end up going in circles.

I say this not trying to defend my profession or devalue anybody's argument. It just really doesn't work.

 

[the moops]

you sound really boring without your shtick

 

[The Big Guy]

The following post contains no shtick, no sarcasm, no defensiveness, no vitriol, and no condescention:

Comparing teaching to other private sector jobs doesn't really work. I know it should but it just doesn't.

We've covered this in several different threads over the years. And almost every time we end up going in circles.

I say this not trying to defend my profession or devalue anybody's argument. It just really doesn't work.

As much as I seem to be giving teachers a hard time here, I do recognize how much some kids suck and some parents will make it their life's mission to make you life hell. The major difference between your job and the rest of the world is that you have to deal with the same random nitwit for a year at a time and we get random nitwits to deal with or one ##### boss.

Yay work can suck for us all. Now let's all go get a beer.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

you sound really boring without your shtick

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Think of it this way...

Every election year you get some candidate(s) running for some office that try to use their experience/success in the business world as a reason we should vote for them.

"I built a multi-million dollar company from scratch...I bet I can balance California's budget blah blah blah."

Of course anybody that didn't sleep through 12th grade government/civics knows that doesn't really mean jack.

 

[Galileo]

Cons to being a teacher:

1. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are awful.

2. Ceilings on compensation

3. Hard work not often financially rewarded

4. Rigid work schedule

Pros to being a teacher:

1. Substantial job security

2. Floors on compensation and structured pay increases

3. Immediate rewards/gratification

4. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are great

5. Substantial time off

My wife, mother, sister, brother in law & best friend are teachers. I've discussed more about teaching than I have my own profession. The job, like any other, has trade offs. I'm sure there are other pros/cons teachers could come up with, but these are the big ones.

All that said, I'm fairly certain that grade school PE is the easiest gig in the world for the money.

Those cons apply to most jobs.

Not to the level of a teacher. I meet and have to manage hundreds of new people every year. They don't get fired unless they have a weapon or drugs which means even if the kid is intentionally trying to sabotage my work environment, I have to try and make it work. Also, I can't just go to the bathroom if I need to or take a 2 minutes to compose myself/rest/get a snack. The kids bombard you all day long.

There are a lot of crappy jobs out there without the perks of teaching. At least the kids can't fire you.

There are a lot of jobs out there without the cons of teaching, too. At least you don't have the parents of your customers calling you up and complaining.

Why would the parents of customers call? The customers would just call themselves if they had a complaint. You aren't making any sense.

Exactly. I don't deal with kids that fire me. I deal with a community of well educated professionals that expect demand every single action to be on point. I can't imagine this district without tenure to protect it's teachers.

The alternative is much more difficult to deal with...

 

[MCguidance]

Cons to being a teacher:

1. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are awful.

2. Ceilings on compensation

3. Hard work not often financially rewarded

4. Rigid work schedule

Pros to being a teacher:

1. Substantial job security

2. Floors on compensation and structured pay increases

3. Immediate rewards/gratification

4. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are great

5. Substantial time off

My wife, mother, sister, brother in law & best friend are teachers. I've discussed more about teaching than I have my own profession. The job, like any other, has trade offs. I'm sure there are other pros/cons teachers could come up with, but these are the big ones.

All that said, I'm fairly certain that grade school PE is the easiest gig in the world for the money.

Those cons apply to most jobs.

Not to the level of a teacher. I meet and have to manage hundreds of new people every year. They don't get fired unless they have a weapon or drugs which means even if the kid is intentionally trying to sabotage my work environment, I have to try and make it work. Also, I can't just go to the bathroom if I need to or take a 2 minutes to compose myself/rest/get a snack. The kids bombard you all day long.

There are a lot of crappy jobs out there without the perks of teaching. At least the kids can't fire you.

There are a lot of jobs out there without the cons of teaching, too. At least you don't have the parents of your customers calling you up and complaining.

Why would the parents of customers call? The customers would just call themselves if they had a complaint. You aren't making any sense.

Exactly. I don't deal with kids that fire me. I deal with a community of well educated professionals that expect demand every single action to be on point. I can't imagine this district without tenure to protect it's teachers.

The alternative is much more difficult to deal with...

Death?

 

[Galileo]

Cons to being a teacher:

1. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are awful.

2. Ceilings on compensation

3. Hard work not often financially rewarded

4. Rigid work schedule

Pros to being a teacher:

1. Substantial job security

2. Floors on compensation and structured pay increases

3. Immediate rewards/gratification

4. Deal with a lot of people, some of whom are great

5. Substantial time off

My wife, mother, sister, brother in law & best friend are teachers. I've discussed more about teaching than I have my own profession. The job, like any other, has trade offs. I'm sure there are other pros/cons teachers could come up with, but these are the big ones.

All that said, I'm fairly certain that grade school PE is the easiest gig in the world for the money.

Those cons apply to most jobs.

Not to the level of a teacher. I meet and have to manage hundreds of new people every year. They don't get fired unless they have a weapon or drugs which means even if the kid is intentionally trying to sabotage my work environment, I have to try and make it work. Also, I can't just go to the bathroom if I need to or take a 2 minutes to compose myself/rest/get a snack. The kids bombard you all day long.

There are a lot of crappy jobs out there without the perks of teaching. At least the kids can't fire you.

There are a lot of jobs out there without the cons of teaching, too. At least you don't have the parents of your customers calling you up and complaining.

Why would the parents of customers call? The customers would just call themselves if they had a complaint. You aren't making any sense.

Exactly. I don't deal with kids that fire me. I deal with a community of well educated professionals that expect demand every single action to be on point. I can't imagine this district without tenure to protect it's teachers.

The alternative is much more difficult to deal with...

Death?

Dealing with a community of uneducated people who don't give a crap about the education of their children and are, for the most part, aren't meaningfully involved in their children's lives.

 

[MCguidance]

I wasn't quite sure to what you were referring, but I cannot disagree. Our parking lot is overflowed on Back to School night while ten miles away it sparsely attended. Love my district and my job, wouldn't trade it for anything.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

I wasn't quite sure to what you were referring, but I cannot disagree. Our parking lot is overflowed on Back to School night while ten miles away it sparsely attended. Love my district and my job, wouldn't trade it for anything.

We have a lot of parental involvement in my district. It's pretty great.

I remember a few years ago one of the "struggling" elementary schools across town got a new principal. As soon as he was hired he did nothing but talk about turning the school around. One of the first things he did was schedule a "town meeting". He basically invited every single parent/adult in the area to show up and voice their concerns about everything from academics to neighborhood crime. He sent out letters, contacted the local media, etc etc.

About 25 people showed up.

 

[MCguidance]

I wasn't quite sure to what you were referring, but I cannot disagree. Our parking lot is overflowed on Back to School night while ten miles away it sparsely attended. Love my district and my job, wouldn't trade it for anything.

We have a lot of parental involvement in my district. It's pretty great.

I remember a few years ago one of the "struggling" elementary schools across town got a new principal. As soon as he was hired he did nothing but talk about turning the school around. One of the first things he did was schedule a "town meeting". He basically invited every single parent/adult in the area to show up and voice their concerns about everything from academics to neighborhood crime. He sent out letters, contacted the local media, etc etc.

About 25 people showed up.

It's extremely challenging to garner sustained, community input. When you're in a district with a low socioeconomic demographic, parent functions are poorly attended. In NJ, they recently did away with "district factor groups" that rated districts from A to H (H being the highest). Our district is one of a handful of H's in the state, so we know how lucky we are to be working with these students.

Take the hot button issue of "merit pay" and you can see how problematic it becomes to pay teachers according to student progress (based on standardized tests). To base teacher pay on "merit" would be unfair to teachers across the board, regardless of district factor group. It's unfair to do so in my "rich" district where students are already going to be at a high level (they can't really get much higher), just as it would be to "poor" districts where students are transient, parent input is low, and education is down the list of family priorities. I understand you need common assessments (which is an argument FOR the Common Core), but to base teacher effectiveness and pay on these assessments makes it unjust, IMO.

 

[The Big Guy]

I wasn't quite sure to what you were referring, but I cannot disagree. Our parking lot is overflowed on Back to School night while ten miles away it sparsely attended. Love my district and my job, wouldn't trade it for anything.

We have a lot of parental involvement in my district. It's pretty great.

I remember a few years ago one of the "struggling" elementary schools across town got a new principal. As soon as he was hired he did nothing but talk about turning the school around. One of the first things he did was schedule a "town meeting". He basically invited every single parent/adult in the area to show up and voice their concerns about everything from academics to neighborhood crime. He sent out letters, contacted the local media, etc etc.

About 25 people showed up.

It's extremely challenging to garner sustained, community input. When you're in a district with a low socioeconomic demographic, parent functions are poorly attended. In NJ, they recently did away with "district factor groups" that rated districts from A to H (H being the highest). Our district is one of a handful of H's in the state, so we know how lucky we are to be working with these students.

Take the hot button issue of "merit pay" and you can see how problematic it becomes to pay teachers according to student progress (based on standardized tests). To base teacher pay on "merit" would be unfair to teachers across the board, regardless of district factor group. It's unfair to do so in my "rich" district where students are already going to be at a high level (they can't really get much higher), just as it would be to "poor" districts where students are transient, parent input is low, and education is down the list of family priorities. I understand you need common assessments (which is an argument FOR the Common Core), but to base teacher effectiveness and pay on these assessments makes it unjust, IMO.

I understand the difficulties of essentially comparing apples to oranges, but what you can do is compare school performances across the same band level with others in the state. That gets you your baseline and gets you a general sense of which school is underachieving compared to its peer grouping. This method is used in a variety of industries and is a way of balancing the playing field.

In your case, taking the H level schools and using AP testing and participation levels is one metric that would be good for comparison vs a B school. There are ways to make it count and while it is never perfect solution, the data is out there to show results.

 

[MCguidance]

I wasn't quite sure to what you were referring, but I cannot disagree. Our parking lot is overflowed on Back to School night while ten miles away it sparsely attended. Love my district and my job, wouldn't trade it for anything.

We have a lot of parental involvement in my district. It's pretty great.

I remember a few years ago one of the "struggling" elementary schools across town got a new principal. As soon as he was hired he did nothing but talk about turning the school around. One of the first things he did was schedule a "town meeting". He basically invited every single parent/adult in the area to show up and voice their concerns about everything from academics to neighborhood crime. He sent out letters, contacted the local media, etc etc.

About 25 people showed up.

It's extremely challenging to garner sustained, community input. When you're in a district with a low socioeconomic demographic, parent functions are poorly attended. In NJ, they recently did away with "district factor groups" that rated districts from A to H (H being the highest). Our district is one of a handful of H's in the state, so we know how lucky we are to be working with these students.Take the hot button issue of "merit pay" and you can see how problematic it becomes to pay teachers according to student progress (based on standardized tests). To base teacher pay on "merit" would be unfair to teachers across the board, regardless of district factor group. It's unfair to do so in my "rich" district where students are already going to be at a high level (they can't really get much higher), just as it would be to "poor" districts where students are transient, parent input is low, and education is down the list of family priorities. I understand you need common assessments (which is an argument FOR the Common Core), but to base teacher effectiveness and pay on these assessments makes it unjust, IMO.

I understand the difficulties of essentially comparing apples to oranges, but what you can do is compare school performances across the same band level with others in the state. That gets you your baseline and gets you a general sense of which school is underachieving compared to its peer grouping. This method is used in a variety of industries and is a way of balancing the playing field.In your case, taking the H level schools and using AP testing and participation levels is one metric that would be good for comparison vs a B school. There are ways to make it count and while it is never perfect solution, the data is out there to show results.

I'm very skeptical that merit pay would be done equitably given all of the variables educators face. From different teacher evaluation systems, different admin structures, etc. to the ownership of education (locus of control and big business stepping in) and cost of implementation, I'm against it.